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Old 21st May 2017, 04:13 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
On the other hand, "you've never heard of James Cameron? He's responsible for "Avatar," the movie" is not a good argument in favour of them. I suspect that that was the point that fromdownunder was making.
I employed Cameron, because the previous poster had said, "No one had ever heard of this site and its connection to Atlantis."

The documentary was a collaborative effort between Cameron and National Geographic.

My argument was one of 'authority' but rather popularity.
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Old 21st May 2017, 04:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You've raised an unwarranted objection, after the courtroom emptied.

Speaking of which, that Reuters story you linked to predates your self-imposed exile from the forum. Has there been any expert commentary on these revolutionary discoveries in the last half-dozen years?
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Old 21st May 2017, 04:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I employed Cameron, because the previous poster had said, "No one had ever heard of this site and its connection to Atlantis."

The documentary was a collaborative effort between Cameron and National Geographic.

My argument was one of 'authority' but rather popularity.

Oops.
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Old 21st May 2017, 04:56 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Oops.
Hilarious...

But intellectually dishonest.

I am not saying they are 'right' because they are popular. The poster said he/she had no interest in something no one had heard of.

James Cameron and National Geographic collaborated so that people could/might learn from their findings.

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Old 21st May 2017, 05:23 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Well, for starters, he made comparisons to The Walking Dead...

You can't compare ANYTHING to The Walking Dead, because its pure awesome and incomparable.
Comparisons are what they are, comparisons.

Are you admitting that you are unable to address the facts presented?
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:40 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Comparisons are what they are, comparisons.

Are you admitting that you are unable to address the facts presented?
Haha, No.

---

He doesn't contradict any facts presented or provide any of his own. The review is an assembly of personal attacks, while he ignores everything of substance presented.

For starters, he begins from the exact opposite premise that one should, as a historian and archeologist.

History is riddled with scribes' misperceptions, biases, and then other historians add things resulting in shadows of the truth. Understanding what really happened become the archeological investigation. That what was found and Plato's descriptions, have inconsistencies, while at the same time it is, seemingly...a sunken city, with concentric rings, destroyed in the right period, located in the right spot.

We know Plato did not 'witness' the sinking of Atlantis and that his tale had political ramifications, but the reviewer begins by saying it has no historic value.

The review said these are crackpots chasing a theory with no validity.

If The Cave allegory is to be applied, it should have had the reviewer shackled in the cave.

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Old 21st May 2017, 06:29 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
If The Cave allegory is to be applied,
And do you know where this cave is? If the allegorical city of Atlantis must exist, this Cave must too.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:33 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
And do you know where this cave is? If the allegorical city of Atlantis must exist, this Cave must too.
"The Cave" is an allegory, not an actual 'cave'...* https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

Atlantis isn't an allegory, it is history with literary elements.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:42 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
"The Cave" is an allegory, not an actual 'cave'...* https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

Atlantis isn't an allegory, it is history with literary elements.
It is an allegory.

All "history" of it has been people swearing they've found it over here... no, over here... no, off the coast of southern Spain... no, southern Morocco...

A pile of crackpots do not make a body of evidence.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:43 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Greetings JREF'ers,

Truly it has been too long...

I hope all of you are well.

The thing that brings me back, is that I'd like feedback on a particular "woo-subject" I was introduced to last week.

So...along the Spanish coast are remnants of 'half' of Atlantis...

http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/tag/h...-satisfaction/

There are some who postulate that the Menorah was misconstrued as a candle stick, rather than a symbol of the lost city, with half its concentric circles missing.

I've always found Atlantis to be the unfound Troy- a mythical city lost to our knowledge, trapped behind indecipherable passages, waiting to be found by someone willing to look where others have not...

Thoughts?

The Menorah is not actually of the shape of 'half concentric circles'.

Here's a picture I took at Capernaum, which was excavated and relics from AD1 were dug up showing the ancient shapes are much the same as they are now.

The other picture I took, as follows, is of the giant Menorah sculpture outside the Israeli parliament in Jerusalem.

As I understand it Atlantis was a hoax perpetrated by people like Madam Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ancient artefact 1.jpg (120.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg menorah jerusalem.jpg (73.4 KB, 5 views)
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:46 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Menorah is not actually of the shape of 'half concentric circles'.

Here's a picture I took at Capernaum, which was excavated and relics from AD1 were dug up showing the ancient shapes are much the same as they are now.

The other picture I took, as follows, is of the giant Menorah sculpture outside the Israeli parliament in Jerusalem.

As I understand it Atlantis was a hoax perpetrated by people like Madam Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce.
You have been mis/under-informed.

1 AD is still thousands of years behind the cure.

But even in the evidence you present, there was an evolution from one symbol to the next. The earlier version seems to be more concentric circle than the latter, no?
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:48 AM   #92
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KotA,
Are you going to address any of the required conditions for a site to be Atlantis or are you content posting like a child on a playground?
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You have been mis/under-informed.

1 AD is still thousands of years behind the cure.

But even in the evidence you present, there was an evolution from one symbol to the next. The earlier version seems to be more concentric circle than the latter, no?
Yes, I see that.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:51 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Atlantis isn't an allegory, it is history with literary elements.
It's aleglessegory. History with alcoholic elements.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:53 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It is an allegory.

All "history" of it has been people swearing they've found it over here... no, over here... no, off the coast of southern Spain... no, southern Morocco...

A pile of crackpots do not make a body of evidence.
"No one has found it, so it doesn't exist."

Ahhh, that's not the way science or archaeology works, I'm afraid.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:22 AM   #96
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By choosing carefully from the many map depictions of Atlantis, and choosing carefully from the many ancient depictions of menorahs, one can find a close match in shape that supports an argument that the menorah is a transformation of the Atlantis map.

By choosing carefully from the many depictions of human faces1, and choosing carefully from the many depictions of cephalopods2, one can find a close match in shape that supports an argument that humans are a type of squid.

1The Scream by Edvard Munch
2Squidward from Spongebob Squarepants
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:24 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
KotA,
Are you going to address any of the required conditions for a site to be Atlantis or are you content posting like a child on a playground?
Sorry, I was unaware of the criteria required to match history with archeological fact...

Maybe you could lay out a hypothetical, say Homer's Troy? Does the site found relate closely, resemble sorta, or is 'exactly' as Homer described it?

I guess a better question would be, "How did you determine which of Plato's words were valid?"

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Old 21st May 2017, 07:25 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
It's aleglessegory. History with alcoholic elements.
So, are you the funny one?
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:28 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
By choosing carefully from the many map depictions of Atlantis, and choosing carefully from the many ancient depictions of menorahs, one can find a close match in shape that supports an argument that the menorah is a transformation of the Atlantis map.

By choosing carefully from the many depictions of human faces1, and choosing carefully from the many depictions of cephalopods2, one can find a close match in shape that supports an argument that humans are a type of squid.

1The Scream by Edvard Munch
2Squidward from Spongebob Squarepants
Sound reasoning...

I always employ non-sense when I'm trying NOT to make a logical argument.

"A little non-sense now and then, is relished by the wisest men." -Willy Wonka

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Old 21st May 2017, 07:29 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, I see that.
And so, what does that mean, then?
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:33 AM   #101
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The Menorah - Concentric Circles

I have no idea if the Menorah 'concentric circles' conforms to anything to do with Atlantis. However, I was intrigued enough to see whether it did form concentric circles when juxtaposed to itself.

Taking the photo I took of the stone relics excavated at Capernaum, dated by historians to AD1, and joining it to its inversion, I got the following, and they do indeed, look like concentric circles.

Bearing in mind, this is a sculpture hewn from stone, it's not a bad piece of geometry. The image is itself is much older than the date of the stone.

Given its pride of place on the artefact, it was likely considered an important symbol, being as it were the headstone of a temple/synagogue.
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File Type: jpeg menorah circle across.jpeg (16.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpeg menorah circle upright.jpeg (16.8 KB, 2 views)
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:37 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have no idea if the Menorah 'concentric circles' conforms to anything to do with Atlantis. However, I was intrigued enough to see whether it did form concentric circles when juxtaposed to itself.

Taking the photo I took of the stone relics excavated at Capernaum, dated by historians to AD1, and joining it to its inversion, I got the following, and they do indeed, look like concentric circles.

Bearing in mind, this is a sculpture hewn from stone, it's not a bad piece of geometry. The image is itself is much older than the date of the stone.

Given its pride of place on the artefact, it was likely considered an important symbol, being as it were the headstone of a temple/synagogue.
Thank you.

Add to that, that the base of the menorah is a 'fork', not a level base.

I think what we have here is cultural appropriation. One culture adopts symbols of another, not fully understanding its meanings or origins, bastardizing it to their own use.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:59 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Not an ad-hom, because it refers to the argument put forth, not the arguer.

Anyhow, this link explains the weakness:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/na...ntean-theology

Here's the relevant passage (why are we doing KOTA's sourcing for him?):

Quote:
Jacobovici and Montexano, both standing in Spain, see a petroglyph composed of three upside-down arcs with a line drawn perpendicularly through them and declare it a Jewish menorah! The two men agree that Jewish menorahs are actually ďan evolution of the Atlantean symbol of concentric circles,Ē a claim that lacks any factual foundation since Atlantis was, so far as we know, never symbolized as concentric rings. That was abstracted from Platoís description of the cityís canals. Nevertheless, the two men conclude that the Bible reflects ďAtlantean theology.Ē

Stop and consider that for a moment: A group of religious conspiracy theorists who already think Jesus is part of a secret conspiracy of ancient bloodlines now argue that Atlantis is the secret source of Judaism!
KOTA: We are none the wiser.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:02 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I understand it Atlantis was a hoax perpetrated by people like Madam Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce.

Some parts of the story are, especially if you add Dion Fortune to that list of names. Although, keep in mind that one person's "hoax" is another's "revelation of a deeper Truth that transcends mere history."

In any case, they're the ones who inflated Plato's version of Atlantis, a military threat to ancient Athens, into the capital of a world-spanning super-civilization of magical adepts, whose inundation resulted from over-use of bad magic despite the good magicians' opposition; the latter departing in the nick of time in a global diaspora that seeded the rise of every other known interesting ancient culture and began the occult traditions that to this day simultaneously preserve, and conceal from public view, the original Atlantean knowledge.

Thence, the idea that Atlantis was not just a lost civilization akin to other ancient civilizations of its time, but the focus of a lost age of magic and/or super-science, of which tempting traces can still be found (but remain so dangerous that they must also still be concealed). You know you're in the latter view when the amazing magical or technological powers of orichalcum come up for discussion.

The occult-history version has of course seeped into and colored the public perception of the Atlantis story, in part through such not-so-occult means as Hollywood movies (e.g. Atlantis, the Lost Continent, 1961, complete with mad scientists, power crystals, and good and evil high priests). Without this gussying up, people's relationships to the original Atlantis story would tend to be far more Platonic.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:09 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Thank you.

Add to that, that the base of the menorah is a 'fork', not a level base.

I think what we have here is cultural appropriation. One culture adopts symbols of another, not fully understanding its meanings or origins, bastardizing it to their own use.
Here's a picture:

By Ellen Prokop - Own work, CC BY 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=35016696
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:15 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
...You know you're in the latter view when the amazing magical or technological powers of orichalcum come up for discussion.

...
Micheal Jordan could not "fly," and Space Jam was a fictional movie.

Once the most recognizable figure on the planet, he now exists in the minds of many, part man, and part basketball-god.

Millennia from now, will images of him floating toward a dunk, Space Jam, and magic shoes that turned any normal player into a superstar be used to invalidate his existence, or to tell others they should not seek evidence of his actual existence?

I don't think Plato's narrative was one thing...nor a hoax. I don't know about a deeper truth transcending history, but I think because it is a part of our history, to treat it as pure fiction would be folly.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:18 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Some parts of the story are, especially if you add Dion Fortune to that list of names. Although, keep in mind that one person's "hoax" is another's "revelation of a deeper Truth that transcends mere history."

In any case, they're the ones who inflated Plato's version of Atlantis, a military threat to ancient Athens, into the capital of a world-spanning super-civilization of magical adepts, whose inundation resulted from over-use of bad magic despite the good magicians' opposition; the latter departing in the nick of time in a global diaspora that seeded the rise of every other known interesting ancient culture and began the occult traditions that to this day simultaneously preserve, and conceal from public view, the original Atlantean knowledge.

Thence, the idea that Atlantis was not just a lost civilization akin to other ancient civilizations of its time, but the focus of a lost age of magic and/or super-science, of which tempting traces can still be found (but remain so dangerous that they must also still be concealed). You know you're in the latter view when the amazing magical or technological powers of orichalcum come up for discussion.

The occult-history version has of course seeped into and colored the public perception of the Atlantis story, in part through such not-so-occult means as Hollywood movies (e.g. Atlantis, the Lost Continent, 1961, complete with mad scientists, power crystals, and good and evil high priests). Without this gussying up, people's relationships to the original Atlantis story would tend to be far more Platonic.
AIUI neo-pagans and occultists - including Cayce - believed Atlantis contained a race of tall red-headed caucasians, and these were the advanced people of the ancient civilisations - including Egypt - not the brown-skinned natives we see today. Atlantis stories always makes me brace myself for this type of BS.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:22 AM   #108
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Finally I have discovered what on earth The King of the Americas is talking about. The conspiracy-theorist filmakers equate Plato's capital city of Atlantis which was comprised of concentric circles of canals with an upside down Menorah.

I dare say this will be the next book idea for Dan Brown and film rights to star Tom Hanks as the mad professor running around ancient cities deciphering 'lost symbols'.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:25 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's a picture:

By Ellen Prokop - Own work, CC BY 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=35016696
Check the date on that pic... 1600-1680.

---

"The symbols carved into the walls had distinct design resembling a bullís eye standing on a stick with three legs. The ancient stone carvings in the Spanish shrines are strongly reminiscent of Platoís description of the port of Atlantis: three concentric circular docks with a central rectangular temple to Poseidon, with a canal connecting out to the sea.

The symbol carved into the walls in Spain was an aerial view of the port Plato described, but with the canal depicted as Poseidonís three-pronged trident,Ē Jacobovici explained.

Then Montexano showed him something even more remarkable. ďIn one of these of these shrines in Spain, the 3,000 year old carving is missing the top half of the bullís eye. Montexano theorized that this symbolizes the refugees were praying for a restored Atlantis."

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/8...LWrVWbSheVK.97
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:26 AM   #110
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The article is typical woo. Somebody knows so proper geologic terms and concepts. It's main failing is in using geofacts as supporting evidence when talking about past human physical culture. No amount of rocks is going to get you there absent artifacts.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:28 AM   #111
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Ahem
Quote:
So...along the Spanish coast are remnants of 'half' of Atlantis...
, along the African coast you surely mean?
The given link shows the site to be next to Morocco.

Anyways, the Greeks weren't great sailors and Atlantis is a Greek legend, meaning it would have been around, Greece.
Akrotiri is the likely island, if the story has any base for truth, however logic makes it unsexy and not as much of a cash cow.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:28 AM   #112
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The article is typical woo...
There used to be a roll eyes icon...where did it go?
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:29 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by imodium View Post
Ahem , along the African coast you surely mean?
The given link shows the site to be next to Morocco...
Sorry, the wrong link was issued.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:31 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
There used to be a roll eyes icon...where did it go?
You asked the question.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:32 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Check the date on that pic... 1600-1680.

<snip>
---
Check the caption of that picture. It is explained that the drawing is to the specifications of Exodus.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:37 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Check the caption of that picture. It is explained that the drawing is to the specifications of Exodus.
Sorry, did you mean that as a joke?

A 17th century rendering of a biblical text, likely re-written itself a few times...I don't think this is evidence of anything...
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:49 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI neo-pagans and occultists - including Cayce - believed Atlantis contained a race of tall red-headed caucasians, and these were the advanced people of the ancient civilisations - including Egypt - not the brown-skinned natives we see today. Atlantis stories always makes me brace myself for this type of BS.

Yeah, that's another aspect of the occult-history version. As I understand it, the story of the Atlantis diaspora even figured (along with, somehow, the old Teutonic mythos) in the occult aspects of Nazi ideology, for that reason.

However, the racial aspect (in a nutshell, that the great prehistoric enlightened world-spanning advanced civilization was ancestral superior white folks) is not in play among all groups. I wouldn't, for instance, without a lot more evidence, accuse KotA of being motivated for his interest in alternative Atlantis history by racial concerns.

My point is that when Cameron or KotA talks about Atlantis being a cultural origin for other civilizations, such as the Hebrews, that's an aspect of the Atlantis story that harkens back to the modern occult-history version, not from anything Plato or other ancients wrote.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:55 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Millennia from now, will images of him floating toward a dunk, Space Jam, and magic shoes that turned any normal player into a superstar be used to invalidate his existence, or to tell others they should not seek evidence of his actual existence?

I don't think Plato's narrative was one thing...nor a hoax. I don't know about a deeper truth transcending history, but I think because it is a part of our history, to treat it as pure fiction would be folly.

The existence of someplace that was the origin of the Atlantis story is indeed open to question as possible history, unless it's pure fiction instead.

The story of the Hebrews (or some significant portion of their culture) being Atlantis refugees (or influence therefrom), by virtue of their having one (1) religious symbol that can (if properly modified) resemble a characteristic of Plato's description of the physical layout of Atlantis, falls squarely into the Space Jam category. Without a lot more evidence, at least.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:58 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's the relevant passage (why are we doing KOTA's sourcing for him?):



KOTA: We are none the wiser.
Not if you allow skeptics to disassociate you from facts on the ground, as they launch personal attacks on those who carry evidence they disapprove of...

This 'relevant passage' is just another personal attack.

"These people can't have anything good to say, they hate the baby Jesus!"

Pfft...

"a claim that lacks any factual foundation since Atlantis was, so far as we know, never symbolized as concentric rings"...???

Do a search for "symbols for Atlantis"...
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:04 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The existence of someplace that was the origin of the Atlantis story is indeed open to question as possible history, unless it's pure fiction instead.

The story of the Hebrews (or some significant portion of their culture) being Atlantis refugees (or influence therefrom), by virtue of their having one (1) religious symbol that can (if properly modified) resemble a characteristic of Plato's description of the physical layout of Atlantis, falls squarely into the Space Jam category. Without a lot more evidence, at least.
The evidence, at least in part, is that the menorah has in fact evolved. It was not as we see it today.

My point is that if we take it as pure fiction, then if it was in part, fact, we will never actually know of or find it...

Like Troy, it was not found, until people looked for it.

After watching Cameron's special, I find it difficult not to make clear connections, although I'd be in favor of much more underwater excavation.
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