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Old 21st May 2017, 09:05 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Not if you allow skeptics to disassociate you from facts on the ground, as they launch personal attacks on those who carry evidence they disapprove of...

This 'relevant passage' is just another personal attack.

"These people can't have anything good to say, they hate the baby Jesus!"

Pfft...

"a claim that lacks any factual foundation since Atlantis was, so far as we know, never symbolized as concentric rings"...???

Do a search for "symbols for Atlantis"...
Forget symbols; that's a dry hole. What you should be looking for are signs of past physical culture on the ground or in the water. No amount of conjecture on symbols is going qualify as evidence.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:08 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Forget symbols; that's a dry hole. What you should be looking for are signs of past physical culture on the ground or in the water. No amount of conjecture on symbols is going qualify as evidence.
Symbols = Literature.

You gotta think macro, not micro.

EVERYTHING matters. And yes, much more underwater research should be performed at the site.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 21st May 2017 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:21 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Symbols = Literature.

You gotta think macro, not micro.

EVERYTHING matters. And yes, much more underwater research should be performed at the site.
Only when organized into a written language. Native Americans, as an example, had many symbols but they did not organize them into literature. You don't know the "language" so you can't credibly claim any of the symbols you cite relate to Atlantis.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:23 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Sorry, I was unaware of the criteria required to match history with archeological fact...

Maybe you could lay out a hypothetical, say Homer's Troy? Does the site found relate closely, resemble sorta, or is 'exactly' as Homer described it?

I guess a better question would be, "How did you determine which of Plato's words were valid?"
Every time you post you shoot off another toe.
Do you not agree that a potential Atlantis site needs to match the physical details mentioned by Plato?
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:33 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Only when organized into a written language. Native Americans, as an example, had many symbols but they did not organize them into literature. You don't know the "language" so you can't credibly claim any of the symbols you cite relate to Atlantis.
You are confusing 'words/language' with symbols.

Symbols carry with them, libraries of meanings. The Statue of Liberty for example, "Lady Liberty," "The Torch Barer," "The Beacon of Freedom" a rose by any other name, perhaps...but if millennia from now, after both America and France have long since disappeared from the world maps. Should one ignore the similarities found in the statues located an ocean apart? Would these two very similar symbols be connected. (*The statue of liberty was a gift from the French, they have one too.)

Symbols can and should be connected, not just by their general shape, but time and location.

You want to choose to ignore that the images are not just vaguely similar, but the same...found in the right place, in the right period?

Unwise...

Last edited by King of the Americas; 21st May 2017 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:44 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Every time you post you shoot off another toe.
Do you not agree that a potential Atlantis site needs to match the physical details mentioned by Plato?
Previously, I asked you to qualify the level of consistency required for a 'match'...

Still waiting.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:51 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You are confusing 'words/language' with symbols.

Symbols carry with them, libraries of meanings. The Statue of Liberty for example, "Lady Liberty," "The Torch Barer," "The Beacon of Freedom" a rose by any other name, perhaps...but if millines from now, after both America and France have long since disappeared from the world maps. Should one ignore the similarities found in the statues located an ocean apart? Would these two very similar symbols be connected. (*The statue of liberty was a gift from the French, they have one too.)

Symbols can and should be connected, not just by their general shape, but time and location.

You want to choose to ignore that the images are not just vaguely similar, but the same...found in the right place, in the right period?

Unwise...
But absent the language you have no idea what the symbols mean.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:57 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But absent the language you have no idea what the symbols mean.
Adoption of symbols as one's own does not require language, a true understand of the symbol's origins or even its meaning.

Wearing Nike's doesn't mean you've ever heard of "Just do it." or that you are an active athlete. It means you saw something cool, and put it on.

End of story.

Atlantis was special enough for us to know about it today, imagine the power its story and images must have held for those much nearer to its existence than we are now...
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:10 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The evidence, at least in part, is that the menorah has in fact evolved. It was not as we see it today.

My point is that if we take it as pure fiction, then if it was in part, fact, we will never actually know of or find it...

Like Troy, it was not found, until people looked for it.

After watching Cameron's special, I find it difficult not to make clear connections, although I'd be in favor of much more underwater excavation.
The only evidence of Atlantis comes from Plato, who admits it was some 9000 years before himself, hardly a first-hand account.

However, Troy had many accounts of when and where it was and, was razed, many accounts from that period alone.
The Hittites built a city, Wilusa, on top of Troy, the Romans later built Ilium on top of that.
Troy wasn't so much lost as buried, in England we find lots of old Roman cities buried, yearly, like Troy we have ideas where they are due to evidence and, like Troy they don't get rediscovered until a shed tonne of money is thrown to find them.
The Romans had a habit of destroying conquered lands history so finding anything bronze age is pot luck and more in the lost category.

Comparing the two shows a total disregard towards any/all history and/or plain incompetence on the subject.
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:23 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by imodium View Post
The only evidence of Atlantis comes from Plato, who admits it was some 9000 years before himself, hardly a first-hand account.

However, Troy had many accounts of when and where it was and, was razed, many accounts from that period alone.
The Hittites built a city, Wilusa, on top of Troy, the Romans later built Ilium on top of that.
Troy wasn't so much lost as buried, in England we find lots of old Roman cities buried, yearly, like Troy we have ideas where they are due to evidence and, like Troy they don't get rediscovered until a shed tonne of money is thrown to find them.
The Romans had a habit of destroying conquered lands history so finding anything bronze age is pot luck and more in the lost category.

Comparing the two shows a total disregard towards any/all history and/or plain incompetence on the subject.
I'll concede this, Troy was 'easier' to find, because of the many accounts of it, but people. 'before it was found' still relegated it to myth.

Given the age of Atlantis, the absence of evidence, locating it with absolute certainty is expectedly difficult.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 21st May 2017 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:40 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Adoption of symbols as one's own does not require language, a true understand of the symbol's origins or even its meaning.

Wearing Nike's doesn't mean you've ever heard of "Just do it." or that you are an active athlete. It means you saw something cool, and put it on.

End of story.

Atlantis was special enough for us to know about it today, imagine the power its story and images must have held for those much nearer to its existence than we are now...
Do a little *********** research, Critias isn't even Plato's most famous work, then factor in Atlantis only had a small part in it.

Like Sodom and Gomorrah the bible copied later, Atlanteans became drunkard, sexual deviants who got wiped out by Zeus, the end.

Word of note, if you actually bother to do any research, you will find Plato even got bored because Critias went unfinished due to the public's non interest, they liked sex along with drinking and didn't want to hear how they'd be punished by some invisible boogeyman.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 10. If you must swear in the public sections (of which GS&tP is one), then you must type the word out in full with no replacement characters, so that the autocensor can work.

Last edited by Agatha; 21st May 2017 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:43 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by imodium View Post
Do a little *********** research, Critias isn't even Plato's most famous work, then factor in Atlantis only had a small part in it.

Like Sodom and Gomorrah the bible copied later, Atlanteans became drunkard, sexual deviants who got wiped out by Zeus, the end.

Word of note, if you actually bother to do any research, you will find Plato even got bored because Critias went unfinished due to the public's non interest, they liked sex along with drinking and didn't want to hear how they'd be punished by some invisible boogeyman.
The cultural appropriation occurred well before Plato...

Last edited by Agatha; 21st May 2017 at 11:14 AM. Reason: rule 10 in quote
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Old 21st May 2017, 12:17 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But absent the language you have no idea what the symbols mean.
But you don't know what symbols could relate to your Atlantis.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But you don't know what symbols could relate to your Atlantis.
You mean except for its shape, number of concentric circles, location, and date...?
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Old 21st May 2017, 02:02 PM   #135
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Youtube of reading of Plato's paragraph on Atlantis-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCZaKRz5i9Q
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Old 21st May 2017, 02:23 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The evidence, at least in part, is that the menorah has in fact evolved. It was not as we see it today.

My point is that if we take it as pure fiction, then if it was in part, fact, we will never actually know of or find it...

Like Troy, it was not found, until people looked for it.

After watching Cameron's special, I find it difficult not to make clear connections, although I'd be in favor of much more underwater excavation.

If the shape of the menorah has evolved, that is only evidence that the shapes of symbols (as well as the shapes of objects constructed for specific purposes, which menorahs also are) evolve. Which we already know.

The evidence you need to support a claim that "destroyed Atlantis = menorah" is something else in Jewish culture that makes the same connection. For instance, does the festival associated with the menorah commemorate a past land lost to inundation (such as, the earth before Noah's flood?) No, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Is there anything else in Jewish culture that suggests Atlantis? Perhaps the Noah story itself, which is after all a story of escaping by ship from a land punitively inundated by a god. In fact, that's far better evidence than the menorah shape. But it's still not very good, because there are a lot of differences in the story as well.

But wait, there's more! There's also the story of the infant Moses, left in the rushes at the verge of the Nile in a basket to escape a pogrom. There's no island involved, and there's no ocean, and no sinking or inundation, and it's not clear whether the basket ever even floated on the river at all, but so what? It's all symbolic! Baby Moses represents the scattered seed of lost Atlantean civilization, arriving in a symbolic ship (a basket) upon the shores of Egypt (symbolized as the banks of the Nile) and being adopted into Egyptian culture. Stories evolve too, so you can't prove it wasn't originally about that, long before it was written down.

Damn, "making connections" sure seems easy. But maybe I'm just really good at it. Do you think Cameron might give me a few hundred grand to go tour Mount Ararat and the banks of the Nile with a camera crew, to see what else I can find?
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:04 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You mean except for its shape, number of concentric circles, location, and date...?
And nothing to indicate that the creator of the symbol had your Atlantis in mind.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:39 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Sorry, I was unaware of the criteria required to match history with archeological fact...

Maybe you could lay out a hypothetical, say Homer's Troy? Does the site found relate closely, resemble sorta, or is 'exactly' as Homer described it?

I guess a better question would be, "How did you determine which of Plato's words were valid?"
Instead of demanding that other people prove your beliefs to be correct, why not do some work yourself? Better yet, why don't you START by gathering information and then develop beliefs that are consistent with the facts?
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:49 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Adoption of symbols as one's own does not require language, a true understand of the symbol's origins or even its meaning.

Wearing Nike's doesn't mean you've ever heard of "Just do it." or that you are an active athlete. It means you saw something cool, and put it on.

End of story.

Atlantis was special enough for us to know about it today, imagine the power its story and images must have held for those much nearer to its existence than we are now...
I don't see the difficulty here. All you need to do is post some original symbols of Atlantis, the adoption of that symbol by others in the region, and some examples showing the transition to the menorah.

The idea that you can take a stylized version of a menorah, heavily modify it to a different image, and then claim that image represents Atlantis is not very compelling.

There are stone circles all over Britain. If I superimpose three on top of each other, I get three concentric circles. Cut it in half and add a stand, I get a menorah. Therefore Israel is Atlantis/England?
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:37 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If the shape of the menorah has evolved, that is only evidence that the shapes of symbols (as well as the shapes of objects constructed for specific purposes, which menorahs also are) evolve. Which we already know.

The evidence you need to support a claim that "destroyed Atlantis = menorah" is something else in Jewish culture that makes the same connection. For instance, does the festival associated with the menorah commemorate a past land lost to inundation (such as, the earth before Noah's flood?) No, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Is there anything else in Jewish culture that suggests Atlantis? Perhaps the Noah story itself, which is after all a story of escaping by ship from a land punitively inundated by a god. In fact, that's far better evidence than the menorah shape. But it's still not very good, because there are a lot of differences in the story as well.

But wait, there's more! There's also the story of the infant Moses, left in the rushes at the verge of the Nile in a basket to escape a pogrom. There's no island involved, and there's no ocean, and no sinking or inundation, and it's not clear whether the basket ever even floated on the river at all, but so what? It's all symbolic! Baby Moses represents the scattered seed of lost Atlantean civilization, arriving in a symbolic ship (a basket) upon the shores of Egypt (symbolized as the banks of the Nile) and being adopted into Egyptian culture. Stories evolve too, so you can't prove it wasn't originally about that, long before it was written down.

Damn, "making connections" sure seems easy. But maybe I'm just really good at it. Do you think Cameron might give me a few hundred grand to go tour Mount Ararat and the banks of the Nile with a camera crew, to see what else I can find?
You too, seem to be stuck in micro mode... Look upon this history not from a single era, but in a macro view of history.

The story of Moses and the Exodus were hundreds upon hundreds of years 'after' the appropriation and de-evolution of the symbol. It is likely those who adopted the symbol little appreciate for what the symbol represented, so to expect them to have the ability to pass anything along is ridiculous.

Can you make connections to the world's most ancient religion, a sunken city, with symbolism connecting the two with corresponding dates?

If so, Yes.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:39 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
And nothing to indicate that the creator of the symbol had your Atlantis in mind.
Except the shape, date, and location...

*Yawn*
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:39 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
There are some who postulate that the Menorah was misconstrued as a candle stick, rather than a symbol of the lost city, with half its concentric circles missing.

Who are these people and why don't they eat more fish and vegetables?
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:48 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by TheSapient View Post
Instead of demanding that other people prove your beliefs to be correct, why not do some work yourself? Better yet, why don't you START by gathering information and then develop beliefs that are consistent with the facts?
1. You can't prove a belief. It's a 'belief' not knowledge. When I 'know' something, it is because I have otherwise absorbed evidence of it. Hence I would never ask anyone to prove my belief. That's silly.

2. I don't have the resources to launch an Atlantis investigation. James Cameron does, and he did, maybe you should check it out?

3. The question I asked the other poster was unanswerable. Because there is no 'minimum standard' for connecting a mythical tale to archaeological evidence. I asked the poster to make one up based on the Troy finding, but only crickets responded.

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Old 21st May 2017, 06:49 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Who are these people and why don't they eat more fish and vegetables?
'Cause "bacon"...?
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:44 PM   #145
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What's the earliest recorded menorah and what was its context? Why would Jewish scholars BCE interpret an arcane symbol as having relevance?
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Old 21st May 2017, 11:14 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
1. You can't prove a belief. It's a 'belief' not knowledge. When I 'know' something, it is because I have otherwise absorbed evidence of it. Hence I would never ask anyone to prove my belief. That's silly.

2. I don't have the resources to launch an Atlantis investigation. James Cameron does, and he did, maybe you should check it out?

3. The question I asked the other poster was unanswerable. Because there is no 'minimum standard' for connecting a mythical tale to archaeological evidence. I asked the poster to make one up based on the Troy finding, but only crickets responded.
1. You may want to re-read what you said here. You admit you "believe" Atlantis to have been a real place. You say that "Location & Type of Ruins" convince you that there was a real Atlantis off the coast of Spain. You present your goofy menorah idea as evidence for your belief. How does this jive with your new claim that belief makes evidence impossible?

2. You don't need a research vessel to answer the criteria that were presented to you. You just need the internet and some intellectual integrity. I know you have access to the internet.

3. Your question was not unanswerable. You are just asking him to do a ton of work to no purpose. You don't need to watch someone else to show how the location of Troy matched criteria derived from the stories of Troy. Seeing someone do that would not give you the courage to think critically about your claims about Atlantis. How would his work on Troy help you answer this (as an example):

"Regional Constraint → There should be red, white, and black bedrock."

Presumably Plato describes Atlantis as having this sort of bedrock. Does your proposed site have this sort of bedrock? They found Troy roughly where Homer described it being. Do you really need to know more before you can talk about the bedrock of Atlantis?
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Old 21st May 2017, 11:30 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Except the shape, date, and location...

*Yawn*
None of which indicate a connection.
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Old 21st May 2017, 11:51 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
What is atlantis?
A soggy and dubious piece of real estate.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:46 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by BaaBaa View Post
What's the earliest recorded menorah and what was its context? Why would Jewish scholars BCE interpret an arcane symbol as having relevance?
I am pretty sure the image of it was posted back on the first or second page...

"Shape, date, and location..."
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:54 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by TheSapient View Post
1. You may want to re-read what you said here. You admit you "believe" Atlantis to have been a real place. You say that "Location & Type of Ruins" convince you that there was a real Atlantis off the coast of Spain. You present your goofy menorah idea as evidence for your belief. How does this jive with your new claim that belief makes evidence impossible?

2. You don't need a research vessel to answer the criteria that were presented to you. You just need the internet and some intellectual integrity. I know you have access to the internet.

3. Your question was not unanswerable. You are just asking him to do a ton of work to no purpose. You don't need to watch someone else to show how the location of Troy matched criteria derived from the stories of Troy. Seeing someone do that would not give you the courage to think critically about your claims about Atlantis. How would his work on Troy help you answer this (as an example):

"Regional Constraint → There should be red, white, and black bedrock."

Presumably Plato describes Atlantis as having this sort of bedrock. Does your proposed site have this sort of bedrock? They found Troy roughly where Homer described it being. Do you really need to know more before you can talk about the bedrock of Atlantis?
Damn, caught in my own snare... Good catch. Clearly, I mis-spoke. The evidence presented by Cameron lead me to conclude that the concentric circles, location and dates of the symbols presented "indicate" a connection.

Watch the Cameron film, then let's talk more.

I simply don't have an answer for 'how much' of a connection to symbols, an area, or even a person in required to 'match' a myth to archeological fact...

Again, how do we know what Plato embellished or should the whole description and all of its elements be considered 100% fact?

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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:57 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
None of which indicate a connection.
Hmmm, what would, then?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:21 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You too, seem to be stuck in micro mode... Look upon this history not from a single era, but in a macro view of history.

The story of Moses and the Exodus were hundreds upon hundreds of years 'after' the appropriation and de-evolution of the symbol. It is likely those who adopted the symbol little appreciate for what the symbol represented, so to expect them to have the ability to pass anything along is ridiculous.

Can you make connections to the world's most ancient religion, a sunken city, with symbolism connecting the two with corresponding dates?

If so, Yes.

Oh, I get it.

When you "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious symbol (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that you claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older symbol that you claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, that's "macro view" and somehow interesting.

When I "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious story (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that I claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older story that I claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, and I do it twice over with two different such stories, that's a "micro view" and the hypothesized continuity is "ridiculous."

Hypocritical double standard noted. Correspondingly, my interest in the discussion, summarily dispelled.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:58 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Oh, I get it.

When you "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious symbol (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that you claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older symbol that you claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, that's "macro view" and somehow interesting.

When I "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious story (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that I claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older story that I claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, and I do it twice over with two different such stories, that's a "micro view" and the hypothesized continuity is "ridiculous."

Hypocritical double standard noted. Correspondingly, my interest in the discussion, summarily dispelled.
Dispelled by non-existent hypocrisy... Away with you then. Fare thee well.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:21 AM   #154
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What IS the 'burden of proof' in regards to Atlantis?

Would one coin do it?

Does it have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of the evidence, and how much evidence, of what kind?

Where does one start, and what elements of Plato's descriptions should be utilized?

---

The menorah was once concentric circles upon a post. It has changed. As a symbol this change represents a loss of true meaning and understanding of what its original shape meant.

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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:49 AM   #155
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A menorah kind of looks like a part of the hypothetical map of a hypothetical city, therefore the symbol must be based on a tradition originating from that hypothetical city?
And the fact that it only partly corresponds with the map means that the people who first carved menorahs knew the hypothetical city was destroyed? And never mind the actual Jewish tradition, because maybe they just forgot where they got the 'city broken in half that kind of looks like a candlestick' symbol from and pretended it had always been a candlestick?

Nonsense. Wishful thinking based on superficial similarities.
You either need to show that the menorah symbol once looked like a 19th century map of Atlantis, and was used by someone before the Jews, or find references in Jewish scripture that the symbol referred to something else than the actual lamp in the Temple, or what it symbolized.
And that's just to be able to say there's a link to something else that might be Atlantis, and still far removed from any evidence for the existence of a lost city.

What you claim is like saying that because the breast cancer awareness ribbon kind of looks like the rune Othala, this could mean that the field of oncology is based on ancient Germanic wisdom.
Or that because there's a labyrinth on the floor of Chartres catherdral, the minotaur might have been real.

ETA: There are many symbols with concentric rings or arches, are they all representations of Atlantis? And how would you know? Or if not, what makes the menorah different?

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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:57 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Oh, I get it.

When you "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious symbol (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that you claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older symbol that you claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, that's "macro view" and somehow interesting.

When I "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious story (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that I claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older story that I claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, and I do it twice over with two different such stories, that's a "micro view" and the hypothesized continuity is "ridiculous."

Hypocritical double standard noted. Correspondingly, my interest in the discussion, summarily dispelled.

AIUI Hinduism is the world's oldest religion:

Quote:
Main historical periods

Although the early history of Hinduism is difficult to date with certainty, the following list presents a rough chronology.

Before 2000 BCE: The Indus Valley Civilisation
1500–500 BCE: The Vedic Period
500 BCE–500 CE: The Epic, Puranic and Classical Age
500 CE–1500 CE: Medieval Period
1500–1757 CE: Pre-Modern Period
1757–1947 CE: British Period
1947 CE–the present: Independent India
Although, who knows for sure?


Quote:
The history of Judaism spans more than 3,000 years. Judaism has its roots as a structured religion in the Middle East during the Bronze Age.
Quote:
The Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilisation of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 09:13 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What IS the 'burden of proof' in regards to Atlantis?

Would one coin do it?

Does it have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of the evidence, and how much evidence, of what kind?

Where does one start, and what elements of Plato's descriptions should be utilized?

---

The menorah was once concentric circles upon a post. It has changed. As a symbol this change represents a loss of true meaning and understanding of what its original shape meant.
It could symbolise the 'three-part cosmos'. It may have deep religious meaning.

However, the mundane reality is that it is possibly just a logo designed to represent the faith, in the same way Christians adopted the crucifix or the Greek Cho. A way of someone saying, 'Kilroy wuz here', if you like.

A while ago there was a plethora of new-age books about the 'meaning of the runes'. Whilst I am sure ancient peoples used the 'FUTHARK' in some old Norse cultures, I was amused by the idea of people sitting in their armchairs claiming that each letter was a spell or a charm for this, that or the other.

My ancestors used a rune symbol to sign legal documents (land deeds) and it was simply the family signature. They were perfectly literate. However, each estate in the area had their own unique mark (ours looks like an 'H' with various hooks on the end strokes). It amuses me to think of the fun occultists would have had with these.

The mediocre reality is, it was just a logo (rather like the modern day brand logos, such as the Nike tick, or the Addidas three stripes) amongst a bunch of wood carving peoples.

Himmler got the swastika symbol from a gravestone in Sweden. Yet people sweat buckets trying to work out 'what does it mean?'

It is what it is.

If I were to tell you someone saw the face of Jesus in a piece of burnt toast, what would you say to me?

Exactly.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:04 PM   #158
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All Together Now:

"Way down below the ocean where I want to be she may be,
My antediluvian baby, oh yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah,
I want to see you some day".....


A lot has been written about Atlantis.
99.5% of it is crap.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:14 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Hmmm, what would, then?
Know what the first guy to create a menorah had in mind. You seem to be ignoring the fact that a menorah is a fairly obvious design if you need to display candles in a row. Oh and we have a history for it that makes no mention of your lost city.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:17 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What IS the 'burden of proof' in regards to Atlantis?

Would one coin do it?

Does it have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of the evidence, and how much evidence, of what kind?

Where does one start, and what elements of Plato's descriptions should be utilized?

---

The menorah was once concentric circles upon a post. It has changed. As a symbol this change represents a loss of true meaning and understanding of what its original shape meant.
You could try finding a submerged lost city with stuff indicating the place was called Atlantis.
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