ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atlantis

Reply
Old 22nd May 2017, 07:29 PM   #201
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Upon Plato: From: http://www.classics.berkeley.edu/sit...othewriter.pdf

"“When Socrates tackles an issue,” writes Thomas Szlezák,“it comes to a de nite result—the discussion takes no false turns,leads down no blind alleys.” In other words, Plato’s principal way of composing precisely the sequence of action and thought that he wished to present to the reader was to insert into that action a conversational maestro whose baton could direct the entire orchestra of ctional voices that the reader gets to hear.

&

Plato, by contrast, is not working with a live audience, but writing the script for the entire dialogue:its dialectical bouts,its mythical narrative, and everything else besides. It is not just the writing of myth, then, that constitutes for Plato what the telling of my this for Socrates; rather, it is the writing of an entire dialogue that builds his domain of freedom."

---

Plato,unlike Socrates, was a philosopher running a school; he was, in his way, what we would now call an academic politician, much concerned about turning institutional ideas into reality. Certainly, Plato could agree that, were the issue of feasibility not to be ad- dressed, the account of Callipolis would not lose any of its value as an account of the paradigm city. But he would not suppose it equal in value to an account that, in addition, did address the issue of feasibility. That much is clear from his having ensured that, in the book he chose to write, the issue was indeed addressed. The further fact that he arranged for it to be addressed with conspicuous airiness by Socrates is what shows the reader how Plato takes himself to be addressing it with adequate commitment.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd May 2017 at 07:40 PM. Reason: ETA STUFF More
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 07:31 PM   #202
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 13,657
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Haha, mine too.

The symbol was 'adopted' from an older source, "in/on a mount"...
You seem to have skipped a couple of steps, like all of them.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 07:46 PM   #203
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
[quote=King of the Americas;11850439]

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You seem to have skipped a couple of steps, like all of them.
If you are talking about the proper quote function, I plead- no contest.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 07:50 PM   #204
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You seem to have skipped a couple of steps, like all of them.
Wait...That's the end of the trail. To the Jewish religion, the "pattern" had no other additional meaning.

The connection to Atlantis would be in its shape, location or path of migration, from a date associated with the sunken city....

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd May 2017 at 08:04 PM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 08:11 PM   #205
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Check this out: http://www.colinandrews.net/DavidElk...etMeeting.html

Lead book from around 70 AD...maybe.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg v5vp1h.jpg (40.0 KB, 3 views)
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 09:24 PM   #206
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 14,932
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Check this out: http://www.colinandrews.net/DavidElk...etMeeting.html

Lead book from around 70 AD...maybe.
Oh goody. A website based on a design from the 1990's about an artefact that cannot be found.

Somehow, you think this gives you free leave to claim whatever you like is in these metal books.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 12:29 AM   #207
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
-Find an inscription of a well known religious symbol
-Claim it's a map of half of Atlantis
-People tell you the thing that looks like a lamp and is only ever described as a literal or metaphorical lamp probably represents a lamp.
-Claim the absence of pre-judaic providence and the fact that every source we have contradicts you is proof the jews forgot it was from Atlantis, so it must have been from Atlantis.

I can't tell whether you're so engrossed by a need to be in on sooper seekrit ancient lore that you can't see you're imagining things, or if you're just being disingenuous.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 03:29 AM   #208
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh goody. A website based on a design from the 1990's about an artefact that cannot be found.

Somehow, you think this gives you free leave to claim whatever you like is in these metal books.
Nope, I am just hunting old images of the menorah.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 03:37 AM   #209
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
-Find an inscription of a well known religious symbol
-Claim it's a map of half of Atlantis
-People tell you the thing that looks like a lamp and is only ever described as a literal or metaphorical lamp probably represents a lamp.
-Claim the absence of pre-judaic providence and the fact that every source we have contradicts you is proof the jews forgot it was from Atlantis, so it must have been from Atlantis.

I can't tell whether you're so engrossed by a need to be in on sooper seekrit ancient lore that you can't see you're imagining things, or if you're just being disingenuous.
^Disingenuous^

-Find an inscription??

James Cameron teamed up with National Geographic to investigate the links between the symbol adopted by the Jewish religion and the sunken city.

I accept that it is NOW worshiped as a lamp or candle holder. The "pattern," its original meaning and origin is GONE, otherwise NOT mentioned in the Bible. But what does this lamp 'mean' what does it represent?

That's not what 'proves' the menorah was the symbol for a destroyed Atlantis.
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd May 2017 at 07:52 AM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 04:22 AM   #210
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
^Disingenuous^

I accept that it is NOW worshiped as a lamp or candle holder. The "pattern," its original meaning and origin is GONE, otherwise NOT mentioned in the Bible. But what does this lamp 'mean' what does it represent?
If there is no evidence for this symbol representing anything but a menorah, then what is the assertion that it represents a map of a mythical city (but only half of it, because... reasons) based on but wishful thinking?

Symbols consisting of concentric circles are quite common.
Are you suggesting they all represent Atlantis? Or is this menorah different? And if so, why?
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 05:04 AM   #211
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If there is no evidence for this symbol representing anything but a menorah, then what is the assertion that it represents a map of a mythical city (but only half of it, because... reasons) based on but wishful thinking?

Symbols consisting of concentric circles are quite common.
Are you suggesting they all represent Atlantis? Or is this menorah different? And if so, why?
It's the number of concentric circles...

And why this "pattern"...what did it MEAN, where did it come from, why did this Biblical authority point to it? We simply don't know...it doesn't actually represent anything within the Jewish religion.

The Cup and ring marks you posted look very dissimilar to the 3 concentric rings of Atlantis...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 05:26 AM   #212
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
It's the number of concentric circles...
But they're not circles, they're at best semicircles. So it does not look like Plato's description of Atlantis.
The assertion that this means it's 'Atlantis snapped clean in half', symbolizing its destruction in a flood is pulled from a location murkier and smellier than any Mediterranean mud bank...

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
And why this "pattern"...what did it MEAN, where did it come from, why did this Biblical authority point to it? We simply don't know...it doesn't actually represent anything within the Jewish religion
Except, you know, the lamp stand in the First Temple...
You can't just assert that it's a symbol for an ancient city without corroborating evidence.
And pretending that your lack of evidence is the real evidence something mysterious is going on is just silly...

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The Cup and ring marks you posted look very dissimilar to the 3 concentric rings of Atlantis...
They look more like Atlantis than a candlestick does...
For starters, they're actually concentric rings. Usually connected by a line, which could be your canal. I don't understand the fixation on the three rings... If Atlantis had been a real city, it would have been destroyed at least 800 years before Plato. It isn't more outlandish to believe that he might have guessed the amount of ringwalls incorrectly than it is to believe that he somehow learned of a place that was both the greatest city ever, and yet completely unmentioned in any source from the previous millennium.

What I'm trying to say is: you can't just take a symbol, and speculate that it's actually not what thousands of years of written tradition claim it is, based on nothing more than vague similarities to something else that has never been documented.
You need to show where it came from, what it used to look like, and what the previous iterations symbolized to the people who made them to do that.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 05:38 AM   #213
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
But they're not circles, they're at best semicircles. So it does not look like Plato's description of Atlantis.
The assertion that this means it's 'Atlantis snapped clean in half', symbolizing its destruction in a flood is pulled from a location murkier and smellier than any Mediterranean mud bank...
Yes, but there was evidence from which to make this claim. It was not 'baseless.'

Quote:
Except, you know, the lamp stand in the First Temple...
You can't just assert that it's a symbol for an ancient city without corroborating evidence.
And pretending that your lack of evidence is the real evidence something mysterious is going on is just silly...
You're pettifogging the issue here. I am saying herein, that the lack of evidence as to what this lamp/menorah actually represents is evidence "that it was adopted." Not where or why it was adopted from. We don't know why the biblical authority said build this like this, nor what "pattern" he is referring to.

Quote:
They look more like Atlantis than a candlestick does...
For starters, they're actually concentric rings. Usually connected by a line, which could be your canal. I don't understand the fixation on the three rings... If Atlantis had been a real city, it would have been destroyed at least 800 years before Plato. It isn't more outlandish to believe that he might have guessed the amount of ringwalls incorrectly than it is to believe that he somehow learned of a place that was both the greatest city ever, and yet completely unmentioned in any source from the previous millennium.
Unmentioned...? Except for Plato and where ever he received his information from...?

Quote:
What I'm trying to say is: you can't just take a symbol, and speculate that it's actually not what thousands of years of written tradition claim it is, based on nothing more than vague similarities to something else that has never been documented.
You need to show where it came from, what it used to look like, and what the previous iterations symbolized to the people who made them to do that.
What do they (Jewish people) claim it represents? I've found conflicting theories...

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd May 2017 at 07:53 AM. Reason: fix quote tags
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:01 AM   #214
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Unmentioned...? Except for Plato and where ever he received his information from...?
Yes... The collapse of the great Bronze Age civilisations was around 1200 BC, so that is the absolute latest date for a possible Atlantis.
Plato wrote his allegory around 400BC.
So any mention of the supposedly greatest city in the history of mankind disappeared for at least 800 years (And if we accept Plato's dating, actually for thousands of years).
And if you really want to take Plato as a reliable source, you'd also have to accept that he claims Atlantis was built on an island lager than Anatolia, situated in the Atlantic. If you're willing to look past the impossibility of such an island, then why is a relatively minor detail like the number of city walls suddenly a deal breaker?
I think I know: because that's the only thing that links the menorah to Atlantis. And because it lets you dismiss similarities to other concentric symbols, like those Stone Age petroglyphs, which discredit your assumptions.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What do they (Jewish people) claim it represents? I've found conflicting theories...
Irrelevant. To claim it symbolizes a mythical sunken city, you need evidence.
The fact that its meaning changed in the thousands of years the Jews used it does not mean you can just invent your own meaning and pretend that predates Jewish usage.

Last edited by Porpoise of Life; 23rd May 2017 at 06:03 AM.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:08 AM   #215
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Yes... The collapse of the great Bronze Age civilisations was around 1200 BC, so that is the absolute latest date for a possible Atlantis.
Plato wrote his allegory around 400BC.
So any mention of the supposedly greatest city in the history of mankind disappeared for at least 800 years (And if we accept Plato's dating, actually for thousands of years).
And if you really want to take Plato as a reliable source, you'd also have to accept that he claims Atlantis was built on an island lager than Anatolia, situated in the Atlantic. If you're willing to look past the impossibility of such an island, then why is a relatively minor detail like the number of city walls suddenly a deal breaker?
I think I know: because that's the only thing that links the menorah to Atlantis. And because it lets you dismiss similarities to other concentric symbols, like those Stone Age petroglyphs, which discredit your assumptions.


Irrelevant. To claim it symbolizes a mythical sunken city, you need evidence.
The fact that its meaning changed in the thousands of years the Jews used it does not mean you can just invent your own meaning and pretend that predates Jewish usage.
You are misrepresenting my claims...

I don't associate any of those dates with the destruction of Atlantis.

Irrelevant? I don't think so. Do you accept or deny that the menorah was adopted by the Jewish religion from an outside source, and was then meaningless?
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:14 AM   #216
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
I see you're glossing over the actually pertinent parts of my posts, and keep going back to vague insinuations of possible symbolism, ignoring why your 'evidence' is absurdly selective and self-contradictory.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Do you accept or deny that the menorah was adopted by the Jewish religion from an outside source, and was then meaningless?
I don't know.
Are there any representations of the menorah that predate Judaism? If there are, in cultures the ancient Israelites had contact with, that would be evidence they adopted it from an outside source.

But no matter how you try to spin it, the assertion that the menorah was based on a schematic map of Atlantis cut in half is completely unsupported.
You have no evidence. Nothing. Just idle speculation.

Last edited by Porpoise of Life; 23rd May 2017 at 06:17 AM.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:16 AM   #217
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,368
If a story Plato told was not his invention, but had survived in Mediterranean culture for many thousands of years before him, why does he now appear to be the sole source of the story? Are there no traces of the story in other texts or variations in other Mediterranean cultures?

If a city famously disappeared completely beneath the waves, why is anyone looking for half of it which didn't?

And further, if half your city disappeared beneath the waves, why would the symbol of your surviving home show the original symbol for the whole city but with the top half missing? Isn't the bottom half missing?

If the original city had been like the artistic depiction further up this thread, with concentric circles built on a shallow hill, a disaster which submerged half of the city would have removed the outer circles, not half of each circle.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:28 AM   #218
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't know.
Are there any representations of the menorah that predate Judaism? If there are, in cultures the ancient Israelites had contact with, that would be evidence they adopted it from an outside source.
How do you not know...? I just quoted you the introduction of the "pattern" of the menorah to the Jewish people, from Exodus. There is no 'reason' put forth. The dude just said, build this thing, here's what it should look like... 7 lamps have become 8 or more candles. The symbol or "pattern" which is an interesting word...had 'no meaning'

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
But no matter how you try to spin it, the assertion that the menorah was based on a schematic map of Atlantis cut in half is completely unsupported.
NOW, let's answer the question above...where did this "pattern" come from...? Where do we find it...on the coast...of spain...underwater...from a period thousands upon thousands of years ago...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:44 AM   #219
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
How do you not know...? I just quoted you the introduction of the "pattern" of the menorah to the Jewish people, from Exodus. There is no 'reason' put forth. The dude just said, build this thing, here's what it should look like... 7 lamps have become 8 or more candles. The symbol or "pattern" which is an interesting word...had 'no meaning'
So... no source predating the Jews then? Just their own sources telling how they designed it.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
NOW, let's answer the question above...where did this "pattern" come from...? Where do we find it...on the coast...of spain...underwater...from a period thousands upon thousands of years ago...
Do you have an image of this Spanish carving that supposedly looks like a menorah? I've searched, but couldn't find anything.
And the picture of the gold medallion you poster earlier is actually from Jerusalem in the 7th century AD, not from a sunken city a couple of thousand years earlier.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 06:54 AM   #220
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
So... no source predating the Jews then? Just their own sources telling how they designed it.
Right, exactly. God, or whatever biblical authority describes what is to be made out of, what it should look like, made after a "pattern" on or in some mount, but no 'reason' or previous history noted.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Do you have an image of this Spanish carving that supposedly looks like a menorah? I've searched, but couldn't find anything.
And the picture of the gold medallion you poster earlier is actually from Jerusalem in the 7th century AD, not from a sunken city a couple of thousand years earlier.
Maybe watch the Cameron film...?
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:10 AM   #221
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
There are some who postulate that the Menorah was misconstrued as a candle stick, rather than a symbol of the lost city, with half its concentric circles missing.

I've always found Atlantis to be the unfound Troy- a mythical city lost to our knowledge, trapped behind indecipherable passages, waiting to be found by someone willing to look where others have not...

Thoughts?
Atlantis was a literary fabrication by Plato in order to make a political point in his writings. There is literally no evidence that it existed beyond this.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:17 AM   #222
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Maybe watch the Cameron film...?

Well, if you're not going to support your own arguments...

I just watched the film, and the menorah comparison is ludicrous.
Look at the attachment.
mnr.jpg
For one, it's upside down.
Secondly, there are clearly five concentric arches, not three.
Thirdly, there is no 'stand', the vertical line ends at the outer circle.

This looks nothing like a menorah, and nothing like Atlantis.

ETA: added traced image for clarity
Attached Images
File Type: jpg datum.jpg (87.9 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by Porpoise of Life; 23rd May 2017 at 07:24 AM.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:21 AM   #223
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
*Objection* Speculation.
<chuckle> Speculation? We have nothing on Atlantis except from Plato and he never claimed it to be a real thing. It was mentioned in the context of a fictional discussion.

Quote:
First, these are not 'my' claims...
Yes they are. You repeat a claim from someone else here, it becomes your claim.

Quote:
I always employ non-sense when I'm trying NOT to make a logical argument.
Seems like you missed Myriad's point, which was about cherry-picking data to fit a preconceived conclusion.

Quote:
There used to be a roll eyes icon...where did it go?
You seem to only want 'thoughts' that don't disagree with you.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:25 AM   #224
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You too, seem to be stuck in micro mode... Look upon this history not from a single era, but in a macro view of history.
What does that even mean?

Quote:
The story of Moses and the Exodus were hundreds upon hundreds of years 'after' the appropriation and de-evolution of the symbol.
*Objection* Speculation.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:31 AM   #225
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Well, if you're not going to support your own arguments...

I just watched the film, and the menorah comparison is ludicrous.
Look at the attachment.
Attachment 36761
For one, it's upside down.
Secondly, there are clearly five concentric arches, not three.
Thirdly, there is no 'stand', the vertical line ends at the outer circle.

This looks nothing like a menorah, and nothing like Atlantis.

ETA: added traced image for clarity
I think it looks like Atlantis and nothing like a menorah...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:32 AM   #226
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, now you want to toss out Plato, as a qualified Historian...someone who never checked sources and just jotted any old diddy down?
Plato was a philosopher, and he was making a very biased political claim in these works. He was trying to draw a conclusion, and used a story to make his point. Without any other evidence to point to the existence of Atlantis, something that's physically impossible as described, by the way, we must discount it as historical.

Quote:
^Disingenuous^
No that pretty much describes your claim.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:35 AM   #227
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I think it looks like Atlantis and nothing like a menorah...
Earlier you were objecting to my comparison with Stone Age ring and cup marks, because only a percentage of them had three concentric circles.

Now you claim that five concentric arches is just peachy as a symbol for something that supposedly consisted of three complete circles.

And the ancient secret menorah link you've been harping on for this entire thread is suddenly gone?

Yeah, I think I have the answer to my earlier question about your sincerity.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:35 AM   #228
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Atlantis was a literary fabrication by Plato in order to make a political point in his writings. There is literally no evidence that it existed beyond this.
If you begin with that supposition, you will never find anything.

If Troy had remained myth, it too would still lay buried to time.

"Literally" here meaning NOT literal, because Plato 'wrote' and used literary terms to describe it from a previous source. Did you mean we have no physical proof, because that is in the film too?
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:37 AM   #229
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Earlier you were objecting to my comparison with Stone Age ring and cup marks, because only a percentage of them had three concentric circles.

Now you claim that five concentric arches is just peachy as a symbol for something that supposedly consisted of three complete circles.

And the ancient secret menorah link you've been harping on for this entire thread is suddenly gone?

Yeah, I think I have the answer to my earlier question about your sincerity.
Like you said,, it's upside down...candles and lamps DON'T work like that. My analysis was based on that alone.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:38 AM   #230
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
If you begin with that supposition, you will never find anything.
Nonsense. We don't assume that things for which we have zero evidence existed. You need to find evidence of something before anyone will take the claim seriously. What you've presented here is not evidence for your claim.

In fact, even if you're right about the shape of the Jewish symbol, have you considered that it could've been based on Plato's account instead? How could you tell?

Quote:
If Troy had remained myth, it too would still lay buried to time.
That's already been addressed by other posters; don't pretend like that didn't happen.

Quote:
"Literally" here meaning NOT literal, because Plato 'wrote' and used literary terms to describe it from a previous source.
*Objection* speculation!

You don't know this. Plato doesn't make that claim.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:38 AM   #231
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
... we must discount it as historical.


....
That utter bull butter.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd May 2017 at 07:55 AM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:42 AM   #232
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,412
Petroglifos of a candle lobra. Sounds legit.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:42 AM   #233
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
That utter bull butter.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12 in quote
Neither one of us is an historian, King. Don't play game with me.

I see you're not really addressing the content of my post but rather the easy-to-pick comments. Would you like to change your strategy, now?

Are you saying that absent evidence, we should accept the claim? That is a bold new philosophy for science, I have to say.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd May 2017 at 07:55 AM.
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:43 AM   #234
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
No, you claimed there were engravings of a menorah in sunken ruins off the Spanish coast that proved a link between Atlantis and Israel.
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
NOW, let's answer the question above...where did this (menorah, red.) "pattern" come from...? Where do we find it...on the coast...of spain...underwater...from a period thousands upon thousands of years ago...

However:
The ruins are not submerged.
The carving does not look like a menorah.
The carving does not look like Atlantis.

You were lying.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:43 AM   #235
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Nonsense. We don't assume that things for which we have zero evidence existed. You need to find evidence of something before anyone will take the claim seriously. What you've presented here is not evidence for your claim.

In fact, even if you're right about the shape of the Jewish symbol, have you considered that it could've been based on Plato's account instead? How could you tell?



That's already been addressed by other posters; don't pretend like that didn't happen.



*Objection* speculation!

You don't know this. Plato doesn't make that claim.
lol

Overruled

Plato's literary work IS evidence and this court will hear it. Be seated counselor. The witness's document is historic, and it should be analyzed for a factual basis. Regarding it as pure fiction provides no motivation to these proceedings, and is an affront to evidentiary rules.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:44 AM   #236
Myriad
Hyperthetical
Moderator
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 12,814
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
A more useful question might be, what reliable sources of information about what did and did not exist thousands of years earlier did Plato have?

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, now you want to toss out Plato, as a qualified Historian...someone who never checked sources and just jotted any old diddy down?

On the contrary. I asked a question, which apparently you cannot answer.

I expected a list of the reliable sources of historical knowledge that Plato had access to. His habits and character might be relevant regarding how accurately he might have conveyed the information he received from those sources, but it all depends upon the sources first.
__________________
A zřmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:45 AM   #237
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,412
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
This looks nothing like a menorah, and nothing like Atlantis.
It's Jesus' abs. The abs of Turin.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:45 AM   #238
King of the Americas
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,687
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Neither one of us is an historian, King. Don't play game with me.

I see you're not really addressing the content of my post but rather the easy-to-pick comments. Would you like to change your strategy, now?

Are you saying that absent evidence, we should accept the claim? That is a bold new philosophy for science, I have to say.
You're not a historian, and you are saying what evidence "must" be disregarded???

Objection- Beyond the Scope of the Witness.

---

I'm saying you aren't qualified to disqualify Plato.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:46 AM   #239
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 62,889
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
lol

Overruled
You know how another poster pointed out your hypocrisy when applying standards? This is another example.

Quote:
Plato's literary work IS evidence and this court will hear it.
I told you not to play games. We're not in a court, and a claim cannot be its own evidence.

Quote:
The witness's document is historic, and it should be analyzed for a factual basis.
Should I consider Star Wars evidence for Darth Vader?

Quote:
Regarding it as pure fiction provides no motivation to these proceedings, and is an affront to evidentiary rules.
That is pure BS. You just want the story to be true, and you'll use any argument, no matter how silly, to make it so.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2017, 07:46 AM   #240
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
It's Jesus' abs. The abs of Turin.
It's clearly the rainbow with some kind of really tall tower in front of it. Which proves the Tower of Babel was a space elevator. God was an alien!
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:59 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.