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Old 24th May 2017, 12:41 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Does the allegory contain truth?
Some wisdom? Perhaps.

A honking great underwater city? Nope.
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Old 24th May 2017, 12:50 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Again, AGAIN, and for you AGAIN.

Symbols can, and this one WAS adopted without an associated meaning or origin.

God, or the biblical authority said, "make this," "the pattern is over there"...that's it.
What in the actual **** does that have to do with your Atlantis?
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Old 24th May 2017, 01:55 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You are not qualified to disqualify Plato.
And you're not qualified to authenticate him. Stop playing games, I asked you, but games you continue to play.

One doesn't need to be an expert in history to note that Plato didn't make a claim about Atlantis and didn't provide any evidence for it, nor did you. All he did was create a narrative for his fictional political discussion.

Until you can prove that he did more than that, you have nothing.
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Old 24th May 2017, 01:59 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by TheSapient View Post
Why is this so hard for everyone to understand?

1) The menorah is a symbol.
2) Symbols can and do evolve over time, even losing their original meaning.
3) Atlantis had three concentric circles.
4) If you take a menorah, delete a bunch of little bits, double it, reverse one of the images, and stick them together, you get three concentric circles.
5) Therefore we have demonstrated that the original menorah image was a representation of Atlantis which was cut in half and eventually changed into a lamp.
6) James Cameron made a video of some submerged ruins which included an image of five curved lines.
7) These lines could be extended in a way to make 5 concentric circles.
8) This submerged ruin is Atlantis.
9) The five circles were probably an original menorah.
10) Therefore we know that Atlantis was real, was located off the coast of Spain, that it's people drew Atlantis as having 5 concentric circles, and that the menorah is a symbol of Atlantis.

The logic is impeccable. All you nit pickers are just nit picking.
I was with you until 3.
4 is "if we had some eggs and ham we could have ham and eggs" logic
5 see 4
6 Jolly good. Next
7 They could be - on the other hand . . . . But didn't you say in 3 that there were three circles - confused as to where the connection is.
8 I thought that half of it was above ground and inland
9 They could have also been a hat, or a child's toy or a nice pattern or . . . . .
10 Err, no
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Old 24th May 2017, 02:07 AM   #285
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I think/hope TheSapient was being sarcastic.
Also, the rock where the symbol was found wasn't submerged, it was on top of a hill.
You might say that it can't be Atlantis then, but the hack in the knit cap in Cameron's little fluff piece found a way around that: it's obviously where the people of Atlantis moved to after their city sank. And that's why some scribbles that look nothing like three concentric circles still represent Atlantis: if you destroy three concentric circles, the rubble could look like anything, so the rainbow scribble carving obviously tells us the story of the destruction of Atlantis.
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Old 24th May 2017, 02:23 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I think/hope TheSapient was being sarcastic.
Also, the rock where the symbol was found wasn't submerged, it was on top of a hill.
You might say that it can't be Atlantis then, but the hack in the knit cap in Cameron's little fluff piece found a way around that: it's obviously where the people of Atlantis moved to after their city sank. And that's why some scribbles that look nothing like three concentric circles still represent Atlantis: if you destroy three concentric circles, the rubble could look like anything, so the rainbow scribble carving obviously tells us the story of the destruction of Atlantis.
My post was made on the assumption that was the case. Just trying to re-emphasise the point after the claims were re-stated in this way.

Last edited by Greebo; 24th May 2017 at 02:24 AM. Reason: formatting
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Old 24th May 2017, 03:03 AM   #287
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Sorry, I missed that.

That's probably why I don't see clues to the locations of lost civilisations everywhere either.
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:14 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If it is not a menorah, then why use this carving as the evidence that the map of Atlantis symbol evolved into the menorah? That was your argument when you started this thread. Now you're weaseling out of that by claiming that it doesn't look like a lamp, and at the same time implying that this is still the origin of the menorah symbol. Even though it's upside down, has too many branches, and no central stand.
Face it, it looks as much like a menorah as the McDonald's logo does.
You didn't count the negative spaces, did you? Hint, there's more than three...
So we have a symbol that's not connected to Judaism, doesn't look like a menorah, and doesn't look like the map of Atlantis (three concentric circles with a canal connecting them). However, you still maintain that your claims are correct, and you keep refusing to support your own claims.
I simply don't understand your difficultly with symbol adoption...

Those who adopted it, 'turned it INO the menorah' because they didn't have access to its original meaning.

How does an upside down menorah make sense to you?
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:16 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
...
Now, if someone finds an underwater city that matches the location, description and timeframe of Atlantis, and find evidence it was abandoned after a cataclysmic event, I will accept I was wrong and this might be Atlantis.

...
How would you know?
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:17 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It contradicts what you have claimed about Plato.
I don't think so, but please explain.
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:18 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Some wisdom? Perhaps.

A honking great underwater city? Nope.
Different piece...
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:19 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What in the actual **** does that have to do with your Atlantis?
My head, the bloody stump, is begging me to stop...
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:20 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I simply don't understand your difficultly with symbol adoption...

Those who adopted it, 'turned it INO the menorah' because they didn't have access to its original meaning.
How do you know this?

Oh, that's right, you don't. You just made it up.

Tip: just because you can think of an idea that makes sense to you doesn't mean it corresponds to reality in any way.
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:22 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And you're not qualified to authenticate him. Stop playing games, I asked you, but games you continue to play.

One doesn't need to be an expert in history to note that Plato didn't make a claim about Atlantis and didn't provide any evidence for it, nor did you. All he did was create a narrative for his fictional political discussion.

Until you can prove that he did more than that, you have nothing.
Wait, Plato said he 'created' the tale?

I thought he said it was from another text he was privy to?

If that's the case, you guys are calling him a liar.
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:28 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I simply don't understand your difficultly with symbol adoption...

Those who adopted it, 'turned it INO the menorah' because they didn't have access to its original meaning.

How does an upside down menorah make sense to you?
It doesn't make sense. And there's no reason to suggest that the ring and cup mark from Stone age Spain inspired the menorah.
I don't understand your difficulty with getting that there is no evidence
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:34 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Wait, Plato said he 'created' the tale?
You're proceding in reverse. The burden is not to show that he wrote fiction. That much is evident from the writings. It's the absence of the positive that's your problem: you need to show that Plato both considered Atlantis a real place and not just a rhetorical device, and that he got this information from earlier sources and not just from his noggin.

Quote:
I thought he said it was from another text he was privy to?
When George Lucas wrote Darth Vader saying that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force, was Lucas making a claim about the force, or was Vader?

It's a character in his story who makes this claim, not Plato.

Quote:
If that's the case, you guys are calling him a liar.
First of all, Plato never MADE THE CLAIM that you make. He wrote fiction to make a political point. You've been told this time and time again.

Second, assuming we are calling him a liar, so?
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Old 24th May 2017, 04:59 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
It doesn't make sense. And there's no reason to suggest that the ring and cup mark from Stone age Spain inspired the menorah.
I don't understand your difficulty with getting that there is no evidence
I never mentioned the ring and cup symbol...that's your claim.
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Old 24th May 2017, 05:07 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Wait, Plato said he 'created' the tale?

I thought he said it was from another text he was privy to?

If that's the case, you guys are calling him a liar.
The false document is actually a common literary device. Plato wouldn't even have been the only philosopher to have used it.

Last edited by theprestige; 24th May 2017 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:12 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The false document is actually a common literary device. Plato wouldn't even have been the only philosopher to have used it.
Let's keep this in the right dugout.

Did Plato say it was a fiction, or did he say it was a fact, based on a valid source?
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:14 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Let's keep this in the right dugout.

Did Plato say it was a fiction, or did he say it was a fact, based on a valid source?
Neither. One of the characters in the story says it came from a source.

Just like Vader's comment about the Force.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:25 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Neither. One of the characters in the story says it came from a source.

Just like Vader's comment about the Force.
Sorry for my ignorance...

Is the piece singular, or part of a larger work?

---

Intersting Plato also mention the mythical city of "Athens" in the story...

Last edited by King of the Americas; 24th May 2017 at 07:39 AM. Reason: ETA STUFF
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:29 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Sorry for my ignorance...
It's quite alright. Everybody's ignorant about something. The trick is to not pretend to know more than you do.

Quote:
Is the piece singular, or part of a larger work?
Not sure I understand your question. Critias is part of a group of works by Plato framing a political and philosophical idea via a fictional discussion between philosophers, one of whom brings up Atlantis although no one else in the discussion has a clue of what he's talking about. Have you read it? It's quite clear that it's a narrative device and not a history lesson by the author.

In any case, EVEN IF Plato had flat out claimed that Atlantis was a real place, we have only his word, and absolutely no evidence to confirm it. You also don't have evidence, only a very generous interpretation of a single symbol.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:40 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's quite alright. Everybody's ignorant about something. The trick is to not pretend to know more than you do.



Not sure I understand your question. Critias is part of a group of works by Plato framing a political and philosophical idea via a fictional discussion between philosophers, one of whom brings up Atlantis although no one else in the discussion has a clue of what he's talking about. Have you read it? It's quite clear that it's a narrative device and not a history lesson by the author.

In any case, EVEN IF Plato had flat out claimed that Atlantis was a real place, we have only his word, and absolutely no evidence to confirm it. You also don't have evidence, only a very generous interpretation of a single symbol.

Right, researching now...

How is it that "Athens" appears in the story? Do we get to say that is unreal?
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:43 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
How is it that "Athens" appears in the story? Do we get to say that is unreal?
Yeah, real places in fictional stories! Figure that one out!

Seriously, are you going to make an argument at some point, or present evidence? So far all you're doing is kicking stones around because people don't immediately agree with your ridiculous assertions.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:46 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's quite alright. Everybody's ignorant about something. The trick is to not pretend to know more than you do.



Not sure I understand your question. Critias is part of a group of works by Plato framing a political and philosophical idea via a fictional discussion between philosophers, one of whom brings up Atlantis although no one else in the discussion has a clue of what he's talking about. Have you read it? It's quite clear that it's a narrative device and not a history lesson by the author.

In any case, EVEN IF Plato had flat out claimed that Atlantis was a real place, we have only his word, and absolutely no evidence to confirm it. You also don't have evidence, only a very generous interpretation of a single symbol.
We are being taken for fools.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:52 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah, real places in fictional stories! Figure that one out!

Seriously, are you going to make an argument at some point, or present evidence? So far all you're doing is kicking stones around because people don't immediately agree with your ridiculous assertions.
Listening to lectures now...gimmie a sec.

*Ahh, preliminarily speaking, the addition of Athens gives credence to 'other' real cities in the story.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:54 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Listening to lectures now...gimmie a sec.

*Ahh, preliminarily speaking, the addition of Athens gives credence to 'other' real cities in the story.
Athens is a real city with a real history. Atlantis is not.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:55 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Listening to lectures now...gimmie a sec.

*Ahh, preliminarily speaking, the addition of Athens gives credence to 'other' real cities in the story.
If you're only interested in patting yourself on the back, it's no wonder you won't listen to reason.
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Old 24th May 2017, 08:02 AM   #309
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Yes, because the mention of London in the Narnia stories obviously makes Cair Paraval that much more likely to be a real place too.
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Old 24th May 2017, 08:56 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
To reiterate:
This is the carving that OP claims is both three concentric circles, and the Jewish menorah (and therefore Atlantis for some reason):
I may well have missed where someone already pointed that out, but if those arcs were extended into circles wouldn't that give you 5 concentric circles, not 3?

And if extended into a menorah shape, it would have 11 points rather than 7.

So...this doesn't logically turn into EITHER 3 concentric circles OR a Jewish menorah, much less both.
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Old 24th May 2017, 09:43 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Athens is a real city with a real history. Atlantis is not.
So, Plato was a teach, above all. His lessons were intended to pass along principles that would aid in individual success.

Creating a fully factious scenario NOT based on solid proven principles is outside if Plato's character.
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Old 24th May 2017, 09:45 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, Plato was a teach, above all. His lessons were intended to pass along principles that would aid in individual success.
That doesn't follow at all. You are ignoring every argument that disagreed with you and cherry-picking the stuff you think agrees with you. That is dishonest.

Quote:
Creating a fully factious scenario NOT based on solid proven principles is outside if Plato's character.
Did you not read the thread so far? Someone's already addressed this.
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Old 24th May 2017, 09:56 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, Plato was a teach, above all. His lessons were intended to pass along principles that would aid in individual success.

Creating a fully factious scenario NOT based on solid proven principles is outside if Plato's character.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That doesn't follow at all. You are ignoring every argument that disagreed with you and cherry-picking the stuff you think agrees with you. That is dishonest.



Did you not read the thread so far? Someone's already addressed this.
KotA is simply investing in the purchase of infractions for others. To date, there is no coherent claim. I couldn't tell you what KotA does or does not believe.
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:17 AM   #314
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Google Earth 'sunken stuff'- Spanish Coast

The rectangle structures are Tarshish, the round one is fur there up north...
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:19 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That doesn't follow at all. You are ignoring every argument that disagreed with you and cherry-picking the stuff you think agrees with you. That is dishonest.



Did you not read the thread so far? Someone's already addressed this.
I have not ignored anything. I have addressed most if not all of the arguments presented.

Could you point to this cherry-picking, and contradict the associated fruit?
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:21 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Yes, because the mention of London in the Narnia stories obviously makes Cair Paraval that much more likely to be a real place too.
The addition of self-admitted fiction writers muddies the waters.
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:25 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I have not ignored anything. I have addressed most if not all of the arguments presented.
You have addressed nothing. You've flippantly dismissed the objections to your claims.

If you were serious and honest about this topic you'd consider the objections and try to see if they work against your claim. Instead you try to imply that we're insulting Plato, as if that has anything to do with the arguments.
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:28 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The addition of self-admitted fiction writers muddies the waters.
Where are the ruins of Thomas More's Utopia?
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:29 AM   #319
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You have addressed nothing. You've flippantly dismissed the objections to your claims.

If you were serious and honest about this topic you'd consider the objections and try to see if they work against your claim. Instead you try to imply that we're insulting Plato, as if that has anything to do with the arguments.
Please be more specific.
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Old 24th May 2017, 10:30 AM   #320
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Where are the ruins of Thomas More's Utopia?
I'm looking!
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