ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 30th May 2017, 05:01 PM   #281
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
We are INSIDE a constantly unidirectional material motion.
Moving along with it, so 0 relative velocity.
Quote:
This action of a physical material fluid in motion (the atmosphere) is what will cause the drag.
Needs to be relative velocity for there to be drag. There is no drag if you're matching the velocity of the flow.
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:02 PM   #282
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
I don't know but some flatearthers are tracking the sun in real time across the planet. You should find your answer there.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xSkrHCjZ85U
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I0aK1kWMZes
You think that those youtube videos are real time? Really?

OK, are they real time now?


How about now?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:02 PM   #283
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,115
Hey TWS,

Still waiting on your answer as to why the stars in the night sky all move in a uniform motion. Abaddon and I are in disagreement. I say it's because the universe orbits the earth, he says it's some bravo sierra about a "firmament" and glass globes. If the earth isn't rotating, which of us is right?

Please let us know what you think.
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:05 PM   #284
thewholesoul
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
If earth is stationary, then why aren't all the stars in the sky in the same position all the time?
Because the stars and planets are not stationary. That said they do return to the same respective positions in the heavens every 12 months.

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Why do they move?
I don't know.

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Are you saying the earth is the center of the universe, and all the stars and galaxies rotate around the earth?

I think that's the logical conclusion one reaches with a stationary earth, yes.
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:06 PM   #285
thewholesoul
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,183
I apologise if I don't get to answer everyone's post. I am trying.
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:08 PM   #286
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,260
Thewholesoul, Why would Earth be the only stationary planet in the solar system? Do you agree that all the other planets rotate?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:08 PM   #287
alex04
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post

I think that's the logical conclusion one reaches with a stationary earth, yes.
How do you account for velocities exceeding the speed of light?
alex04 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:09 PM   #288
frenat
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
I apologise if I don't get to answer everyone's post. I am trying.
no you're not. You repeatedly ignore many points and have basically abandoned your other thread. Not that it matters. Since you resort to logical fallacies in nearly every post I think most have concluded you're just a troll.
__________________
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
-Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
-There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong.
frenat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:10 PM   #289
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Hey TWS,

Still waiting on your answer as to why the stars in the night sky all move in a uniform motion. Abaddon and I are in disagreement. I say it's because the universe orbits the earth, he says it's some bravo sierra about a "firmament" and glass globes. If the earth isn't rotating, which of us is right?

Please let us know what you think.
Yes, I too seek your adjudication. Which of us is correct? I have biblical support and MacGyver1968 does not, the heretic. Please take that into consideration when you make the judgment that the bible forbids.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:11 PM   #290
thewholesoul
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
So do you think the mushroom clouds escaped our atmosphere?
When I mean the explosion was contained I mean it doesn't happen.

To contain a disease outbreak, doesn't mean the outbreak explodes and breaks out so to speak.

Why t he mushroom cloud does not escape our atmosphere is a separate issue
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:15 PM   #291
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
When I mean the explosion was contained I mean it doesn't happen.
Not that it matters in the first place, the sun isn't a nuclear bomb, it's not exploding.
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:18 PM   #292
p0lka
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 633
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
Judging by the quality of your responses in this post i predict you will tap out soon, go awol, abandon us in about two more posts....
Sorry for bringing up earlier posts thewholesoul I'm just trying to work out your opinion,
Is it a competition to you?
Is winning the argument more important than finding the correctness of whats being said?
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:19 PM   #293
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
When I mean the explosion was contained I mean it doesn't happen.
OK So your claim is that there is no sun. Have you any idea how bonkers that claim looks?

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
To contain a disease outbreak, doesn't mean the outbreak explodes and breaks out so to speak.
Who appointed you the pope of epidemiology and when?

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
Why t he mushroom cloud does not escape our atmosphere is a separate issue
Fine. Explain why it does not in isolation. You can't.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:21 PM   #294
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,260
Originally Posted by frenat View Post
no you're not. You repeatedly ignore many points and have basically abandoned your other thread. Not that it matters. Since you resort to logical fallacies in nearly every post I think most have concluded you're just a troll.
Either way, this thread is pretty entertaining.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:22 PM   #295
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Not that it matters in the first place, the sun isn't a nuclear bomb, it's not exploding.
Everyone knows that. Well mostly everyone.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:23 PM   #296
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,260
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Probably a definitional issue. Many use fluids as synonymous to liquids.

Liquids and gasses are both fluids.

But you are correct. It is the only thing our protagonist has gotten correct.
He also called Myriad out for the claim that because of evolution we don't feel supersonic air rushing by us.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:26 PM   #297
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,115
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes, I too seek your adjudication. Which of us is correct? I have biblical support and MacGyver1968 does not, the heretic. Please take that into consideration when you make the judgment that the bible forbids.
HaHa! I'm correct. In the billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, where every one of those countless stars have a mass greater than our own planet....for some reason...all of them...including the supermassive black holes, neutron stars and other incredibly massive objects all orbit our measly small planet's relatively small gravity field.

Suck it firmament boy!
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:26 PM   #298
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
He also called Myriad out for the claim that because of evolution we don't feel supersonic air rushing by us.
Irony does not mean a thing is full of iron.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:30 PM   #299
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
HaHa! I'm correct. In the billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, where every one of those countless stars have a mass greater than our own planet....for some reason...all of them...including the supermassive black holes, neutron stars and other incredibly massive objects all orbit our measly small planet's relatively small gravity field.

Suck it firmament boy!
Wrong again. Yahweh created the firmament and simply made things appear that way. Being god, he/she/it/housecat can alter these deceptive appearances at a whim.

Simply put, you have been deceived by mere appearance. How naive of you.


I don't know how long I can sustain this utter bollocks.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:34 PM   #300
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,115
Damn it...I can never overcome the "god did it" argument. No fair bringing omnipotence into this.
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:44 PM   #301
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Damn it...I can never overcome the "god did it" argument. No fair bringing omnipotence into this.
OH that is just a third of it. Not only can he/she/it/housecat do anything, he/she/it/housecat knows your thoughts and watches while you masturbate. At the same time, he/she/it/housecat can't be bothered to actually do anything about it while temporarily inconveniencing his own son. Odd that, since we are all supposed to be his children. Why did he/she/it/housecat single out one individual to not make a sacrifice at all? I guess that bloke was somehow special.

Gosh I feel like pinnochio.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:47 PM   #302
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,515
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Another thing I was wondering about...If the earth is not rotating, how do Geo-stationary satellites work? Many of our communication satellites are in geo-stationary orbit, so their orbital speed matches the rotation of the earth. That way they stay over the same piece of land all the time so we can bounce signals off them.

If the earth is stationary, then it would be impossible to have a satellite in orbit at zero speed. It would just fall to the earth.

Only if gravity were a real thing.

I have also watched TV in Ecuador. They have the sky tv dishes; I can vouch.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:48 PM   #303
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,260
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Damn it...I can never overcome the "god did it" argument. No fair bringing omnipotence into this.
You can replace "god did it" with "we're in a simulation".
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 05:52 PM   #304
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,115
God watches me masturbate? Geez....I hope he likes Japanese tentacle porn with midgets. He must be one sick mother **********...but hey...we were created in his own image...right?

(derail of a meaningless thread accomplished)
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:09 PM   #305
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,115
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post

I think that's the logical conclusion one reaches with a stationary earth, yes.
Ok...me and Abaddon had our fun...but seriously...You believe that the entire universe, the entire mass of the universe, consisting of billions of galaxies each with billions of stars orbits around our one tiny planet? Why? what makes our little blue marble so special? How does our tiny planet's gravity field hold the *********** whole universe in it's tiny gravity field?
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:13 PM   #306
The Man
Scourge, of the supernatural
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 11,916
Originally Posted by frenat View Post
Not exactly. According to special relativity one could accelerate continuously and get infinitely close to the speed of light but not reach it. Of course it would also require infinite energy and then there is the fact that the same ones will deny relativity when it goes against them.
The acceleration (meter / second2) couldn't be constant, otherwise you would reach the speed of light in a finite period of time. For example if you were going 9.8 m/s less than the speed of light you couldn't accelerate at 9.8 m/s2 for 1 second without reaching the speed of light. With a constant force or energy input what happens is acceleration (change in velocity over time) gets less as you approach the speed of light. While momentum continues to increase speed increases very little.
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ

Last edited by The Man; 30th May 2017 at 06:16 PM. Reason: added for clarity
The Man is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:18 PM   #307
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,358
Came back to view the comedy thread:

Most amusing and complete waste of time...

Hmmm TWS you are losing badly, in your attempt to hamstring the opposition you limited the scope of the discussion - and are still losing. May I suggest you restrict them further to using only the letters z, y x, w, q, j and the vowels e and i? You then might have a chance.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:18 PM   #308
frenat
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
The acceleration (meter / second2) couldn't be constant, otherwise you would reach the speed of light in a finite period of time. For example if you were going 9.8 m/s less than the speed of light you couldn't accelerate at 9.8 m/s2 for 1 second without reaching the speed of light. With a constant force or energy input what happens is acceleration (change in speed over time) gets less as you approach the speed of light. While momentum continues to increase speed increase very little.
I don't fully understand the math but it is possible. It has to do with time slowing down and length contracting all contributing. The closer you get to the speed of light the less it is linear and the more you have to use the equations of special relativity over Newton.
__________________
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
-Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
-There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong.

Last edited by frenat; 30th May 2017 at 06:20 PM.
frenat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:20 PM   #309
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,460
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
I'm sorry but the challenge stated to use "any sphere" you provide an example of a roundabout. That's a fail.
Not so much a fail as an analogy. I'm content to accept that the way you worded your challenge means you get to have your hat and not eat it, but I hope you at least understood the video.

Can you now see that the coriolis effect is not some arcane magic but actually just simple geometry?

Seen from above, the balls which the kids try to roll towards the middle of the roundabout are analogous to warm air rising in the tropics and moving toward the poles. But to the kids' amusement, the balls appear to swerve off in a curve to one side.

The balls actually move in straight lines, which you can see from the overhead view, but as the roundabout revolves beneath them they appear, from the kids' perspective, to trace a curved path. They miss the centre of the roundabout because the kids don't adjust their throw for the sideways motion of the outer edge of the roundabout where they're sitting. Just as the equator is constantly rotating eastward at 1000mph, the kids are rotating anticlockwise. When the balls are released, they have that sideways motion in addition to the kids' throw towards the middle, and the resultant direction misses the centre of the roundabout.

It's a simple, fun experiment and a great demo for children. I'm curious to know if you now think you understand it.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:22 PM   #310
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
The acceleration (meter / second2) couldn't be constant, otherwise you would reach the speed of light in a finite period of time. For example if you were going 9.8 m/s less than the speed of light you couldn't accelerate at 9.8 m/s2 for 1 second without reaching the speed of light. With a constant force or energy input what happens is acceleration (change in velocity over time) gets less as you approach the speed of light. While momentum continues to increase speed increases very little.
You're forgetting about special relativity. In it's own frame of reference it can accelerate at 1g forever without exceeding c in any inertial frame of reference.
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:22 PM   #311
The Man
Scourge, of the supernatural
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 11,916
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
When I mean the explosion was contained I mean it doesn't happen.
Explosions that don't happen aren't explosions

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
To contain a disease outbreak, doesn't mean the outbreak explodes and breaks out so to speak.

Why t he mushroom cloud does not escape our atmosphere is a separate issue
No it isn't, that "the mushroom cloud does not escape our atmosphere" means it was contained within our atmosphere, by, you guessed it, gravity. That why you get fallout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ
The Man is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:26 PM   #312
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,358
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Not so much a fail as an analogy. I'm content to accept that the way you worded your challenge means you get to have your hat and not eat it, but I hope you at least understood the video.

Can you now see that the coriolis effect is not some arcane magic but actually just simple geometry?

Seen from above, the balls which the kids try to roll towards the middle of the roundabout are analogous to warm air rising in the tropics and moving toward the poles. But to the kids' amusement, the balls appear to swerve off in a curve to one side.

The balls actually move in straight lines, which you can see from the overhead view, but as the roundabout revolves beneath them they appear, from the kids' perspective, to trace a curved path. They miss the centre of the roundabout because the kids don't adjust their throw for the sideways motion of the outer edge of the roundabout where they're sitting. Just as the equator is constantly rotating eastward at 1000mph, the kids are rotating anticlockwise. When the balls are released, they have that sideways motion in addition to the kids' throw towards the middle, and the resultant direction misses the centre of the roundabout.

It's a simple, fun experiment and a great demo for children. I'm curious to know if you now think you understand it.
Yep and we use to have to account for it when firing ballistic artillery or the shell WOULD miss the CEP.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:33 PM   #313
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,115
Why the hell are we still talking about rockets and river streams, when TWS has admitted he believes the entire universe orbits the earth?
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:33 PM   #314
The Man
Scourge, of the supernatural
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 11,916
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
You're forgetting about special relativity. In it's own frame of reference it can accelerate at 1g forever without exceeding c in any inertial frame of reference.
If it's accelerate at 1g it wouldn't be an inertial frame of reference.
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ
The Man is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:41 PM   #315
thewholesoul
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Yes, we can point out the flaw(s).
You didn't point out any. The nalogy was a donut shaped pool with a rotating cylinder. Address the flaws in that analogy

Originally Posted by The Man;11860444It
is not friction but momentum
.

No, it's friction and momentum.

Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Just sitting on the launch pad the rocket has an easterly momentum due to the rotation of the Earth. To produce a westerly momentum in the rocket (after launch) the easterly momentum it already must first be overcome. That takes more fuel, so it is easier and more economical simply to increase (after lunch) the easterly momentum the rocket already has. Please don't conflate force and or friction with momentum.
If NASA lauch west there is increased energy consumption because they are flying against the PHYSICAL not imaginary rotational motion of the atmosphere. If the lauch east. The rocket experiences a speed boost. How? What is the causal mechanism which produce a this effect? Does it happen by magic? ,and momentum.of what the solid spinning earth or the fluid spinning atmosphere?

Last edited by thewholesoul; 30th May 2017 at 06:43 PM.
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:45 PM   #316
The Man
Scourge, of the supernatural
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 11,916
Originally Posted by frenat View Post
I don't fully understand the math but it is possible. It has to do with time slowing down and length contracting all contributing. The closer you get to the speed of light the less it is linear and the more you have to use the equations of special relativity over Newton.
Yep, that is why the increasing energy goes more into just increasing the momentum rather than increasing velocity. While relativistic mass is an outdated concept these days, focus being just on the increasing momentum. At low speeds velocity increases and relativistic mass stays the same, thus increasing momentum. As one approaches the speed of light velocity increases less and relativistic mass increases more still increasing momentum.
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ
The Man is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:52 PM   #317
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
If it's accelerate at 1g it wouldn't be an inertial frame of reference.
It wouldn't, but I was talking about an outside observer. It's stationary in its own frame of reference.
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:54 PM   #318
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,460
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
... I like this analogy because the EFFECTS of the constant unidirectional motion on other objects located within it, CANNOT BE IGNORED

Objects moving with the fluids motion WILL according to the laws of physics go faster, farther, and use less energy. In contrast, objects moving in the opposite direction against the fluids motion WILL go slower, travel less distance, and use more energy. All three EFFECTS velocity, distance, and energy consumption can be objectively measured and verified.
Wrong. The constant motion of a fluid can be completely ignored when we are only considering the relative motion of objects immersed in the fluid compared to the fluid itself. They will expend energy to move through the fluid but need expend none to simply float along with the fluid. It's not moving "against the fluid's motion" that uses energy; it's moving through the fluid in any direction.

Quote:
When we COMPARE the results of this analogy to reality we encounter a problem.
No surprise, since the analogy is wrong.

Quote:
Although NASA rockets DO get a speed boost when flying east, other objects such as birds, balloons, helicopters, and commercial jets DO NOT. [...]Can anybody in here explain this glaring contradiction?
Yes. Just about anybody here can explain it. A rocket flying into space no longer cares about its speed relative to the moving surface of the earth far below it. To escape the earth's gravity it needs sufficient velocity relative to the centre of the earth. An aeroplane, by contrast, does not want to leave the planet. It wants to fly from one point on the surface to another point on the surface. And those points are always moving. So the fact that even before it takes off the plane is already travelling east as fast as the earth rotates is perfectly cancelled out by the fact that it's destination is doing so too. A good analogy for the plane would be changing seats on a moving train - it's no more effort to walk from a seat at the back to a seat at the front or vice versa. And that's true whether the train is moving forwards or backwards at any speed you like. The rocket example by contrast is like getting off the train entirely. You'll arrive on the platform going a hell of a lot faster if you 'take advantage' of the train's forward motion and don't wait for it to stop.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:56 PM   #319
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
If NASA lauch west there is increased energy consumption because they are flying against the PHYSICAL not imaginary rotational motion of the atmosphere. If the lauch east. The rocket experiences a speed boost. How? What is the causal mechanism which produce a this effect? Does it happen by magic? ,and momentum.of what the solid spinning earth or the fluid spinning atmosphere?
No no no no no. You've been told a dozen times, the speed boost has nothing to do with the atmosphere. It would exist even if there was no atmosphere.
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2017, 06:57 PM   #320
thewholesoul
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,183
Quote:
Anybody who has swam or rowed a boat up stream in a river KNOWS what you said is untrue. More energy is required to swim or move against a constant unidirectional motion.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Relative to the bank, yes. Relative to the water, no. So, by analogy, since the Earth is rotating relative to the background stars, it takes less energy to go from that speed to the higher speed needed to enter orbit in the same direction than it does in the opposite direction. However, it makes no difference to the energy required to reach a given speed relative to the Earth whether the direction is with or against the rotation. Your chosen example proves the opposite of the point you want it to.

Dave
How come NASA rockets flying east get a speed boost but commercial jets don't?

How can ones relative position physically cause a speed boost. Is it not the rotation of earths atmosphere that gives it? A river or a boat in a river also gets a speed boost when moving with the current.

Last edited by thewholesoul; 30th May 2017 at 07:01 PM.
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:03 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.