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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:12 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
<..> So it wasn't a problem to ask all of the brown people to take a day of absence but when white people were asked to leave it caused a problem, see the hypocrisy? It works both ways.

Ignoring the snipped PoMo blather to focus on the above. The previous "days without <x>" did NOT involve others asking people of a certain demographic to vanish for a day. It involved those people voluntarily absenting THEMSELVES from things for a day, to draw attention to their contribution to society. The case here isn't white folks suggesting they absent themselves from campus. It's PoCs taking a day that was traditionally them absent themselves from campus, but deciding this year to tell people who had the wrong skin pigment that they ought to absent themselves, then calling for firings and violence when they weren't kowtowed to.

Hypocrisy level of those taking issue with this particular 'day without' : zero.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:12 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I have PTSD.

What you are referencing isn't PTSD.

What you describe is either a general sense of collective guilt for immoral actions and practices committed by our predecessors and the anger of individuals that feel their anger is properly directed at the ancestors of the individuals and society that committed those acts.

Point of fact.

The worst incident of lynching/mob violence based on race was committed on My predecessors, Sicilians in New Orleans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_14,_1891_lynchings

The March 14, 1891 lynchings were a series of lynchings of eleven Italian Americans in New Orleans, Louisiana, for their alleged role in the murder of police chief David Hennessy. It was the largest mass lynching in U.S. history.[1][2][note 1]

The lynching took place the day after the trial of nine of the nineteen men indicted in the murder. Six of these defendants had been acquitted, and a mistrial had been declared for the remaining three because the jury failed to agree on their verdicts. Believing the jury had been bribed, a mob broke into the jail where the men were being held and killed eleven of them. The mob numbered in the thousands and included some of the city's most prominent citizens. American press coverage of the event was largely congratulatory, and those responsible for the lynching were never charged.

The incident had serious national repercussions. Italy cut off diplomatic relations with the United States, sparking rumors of war. Increased anti-Italian sentiment led to calls for restrictions on immigration. The word "Mafia" entered the American lexicon, and the stereotype of the Italian-American mafioso was firmly established in the popular imagination.


I heard about it often as a kid.
It is the same thing, there are different levels of severity for PTSD. One of those is paranoia or lack of trust that you won't be treated equitably.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/servi...predictors.pdf
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:14 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
No.
But I think this type of divisiveness has effects, and I dont know what otherwise could be the result. People who feel alienated tend to align themselves with people who, you know, don't alienate them.
So no evidence but a belief in this claim nonetheless. Is it a gut feeling?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't buy it. It's one thing to say there are cultural effects to this, but calling it PTSD is ridiculous.

Quote:
If they really want to stop racism, it stops with the assumptions that you make about people in general.
Seems to me like stopping racism would include not dividing people by race.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:17 AM   #45
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Two wrongs apparently do make a right to some people
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:17 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Ignoring the snipped PoMo blather to focus on the above. The previous "days without <x>" did NOT involve others asking people of a certain demographic to vanish for a day. It involved those people voluntarily absenting THEMSELVES from things for a day, to draw attention to their contribution to society. The case here isn't white folks suggesting they absent themselves from campus. It's PoCs taking a day that was traditionally them absent themselves from campus, but deciding this year to tell people who had the wrong skin pigment that they ought to absent themselves, then calling for firings and violence when they weren't kowtowed to.

Hypocrisy level of those taking issue with this particular 'day without' : zero.
The point is no one should have ever been asked to volunteer for a day of absence for discussing racism in separate groups. Anti-racism should be inculcated into everyday living, everyone should be considered just people, and to treat each other with respect accordingly.

That isn't likely to happen until the trauma of slavery and its lasting affects on the people involved are addressed. You can't resolve something without addressing the root cause.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:17 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It is the same thing, there are different levels of severity for PTSD. One of those is paranoia or lack of trust that you won't be treated equitably.
You can't have PTSD about someone else's experiences. You're working hard to make that term, already sanitised as it is, meaningless.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What these young people are doing is wrong but transgenerational trauma or multigeneraltional PTSD related to persecution of a culture crosses all socioeconomic classes.
There's no such thing, it's an invention of the white-guilt-obsessed academic middle classes. Multigenerational nonsense and transgenerational balls. It demeans the very word, or acronym, PTSD, which brings real suffering to millions worldwide.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
They aren't acting like spoiled brats, they are venting rage that never had a voice before because we are told to get over it, stiff upper lip, and move on.
Get over what? Get over having the opportunity to study in a top class academic environment? Get over living in relative wealth in one of the most prosperous countries on Earth? Get over having the opportunity to gain solid and prosperous employment? Get over being in a position to excel beyond the wildest dreams of 99% of the world's population? What is it exactly they are having trouble 'getting over', other than the abject nonsense of eternal subjugation put about by black power nutters and guilt-raddled leftists?

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There is a better way to do that, Martin Luther King had it right. So it wasn't a problem to ask all of the brown people to take a day of absence but when white people were asked to leave it caused a problem, see the hypocrisy? It works both ways.
Funny, that, how ordering people to stay away from the educational establishment they pay to attend based solely on the colour of their skin could cause problems.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't buy it. It's one thing to say there are cultural effects to this, but calling it PTSD is ridiculous.
What else could you call it? The assumption, right or wrong, that someone doesn't have your best interests at heart based on your skin color because of what happened to your ancestors for hundreds of years isn't PTSD?

Quote:
Seems to me like stopping racism would include not dividing people by race.
Exactly, no one should have ever been asked to volunteer to leave for a day of absence based on their skin color to begin with.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:24 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The point is no one should have ever been asked to volunteer for a day of absence for discussing racism in separate groups. <...>

No one asked immigrants or women to do their recent 'day without', it was their idea. Just as it was the idea of PoCs on this campus in prior years to absent themselves. This year one group told another group they'd best not be around.

You're drawing an equivalence where it simply doesn't exist, and missing the actual problem in a rush to find a reason to excuse and coddle some privileged racist college students and their Oppression Olympics coaches.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:25 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What else could you call it? The assumption, right or wrong, that someone doesn't have your best interests at heart based on your skin color because of what happened to your ancestors for hundreds of years isn't PTSD?
"Racism." Because it's also based on their skin color.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:27 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You can't have PTSD about someone else's experiences. You're working hard to make that term, already sanitised as it is, meaningless.
It's very valid. Cultural identity is a part of what partially defines us as individuals. If you think of culture as an entity alone, and you have a person that identifies with that group or culture what do you think they are going to be taught generation after generation to preserve their safety? They will be taught not to trust the other entity or members of that group that identify with the persecuting culture. It's not a conscious decision at this point it's a default mindset. But the trauma didn't end after the civil war, African Americans might have been free on paper, but they are still fighting for equity in U.S. society as evidenced by the suicide and incarceration rates of young African American males.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
"Racism." Because it's also based on their skin color.
You are correct.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What else could you call it? The assumption, right or wrong, that someone doesn't have your best interests at heart based on your skin color because of what happened to your ancestors for hundreds of years isn't PTSD?
PTSD is an observable neurological condition. It is something that can be physically measured with modern medical equipment.

Behavior against a person based on that person's race is racism. That's the word you're looking for, not PTSD.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
I tend to have sympathy for the professor in this story. But I can't seem to muster it this time. This insane ideology was shaped and molded by Weinstein and his fellow professors at Evergreen. They taught this ideology. Their students listened and believed it. This is a monster co-created by him. That it has turned on him now isn't sad, it's poetic justice.
I think that's uncharitable to Weinstein. Read this article he wrote:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-cam...140067a949560d

There's a major problem with many of the professors in academia and what they're teaching students, but Weinstein recognizes it, and he wasn't part of that problem.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I suspect we don't agree on what their message is. I believe the real message of the protests is not the nominal message, and their attempts to get this professor fired are not simply overzealous efforts in the cause of the nominal message but an integral part of the real message.
Can you expand on this?

My understanding of the purpose and message of the Day of Absence is based on how it's been presented, and how it has historically been enacted (since the 70's)
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:56 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
The Oregonian newspaper has published the full set of emails, they can be read in PDF form in this article:




http://www.theolympian.com/news/poli...153826004.html


The rest of their coverage is well worth reading as well.
I'm having an attack of dumb. I can't find the email. The articles says:
Quote:
Read the initial exchange between Weinstein and Love below. The emails are in reverse chronological order, meaning the first email is at the bottom of the document.
But I can't find the document, I can't find a link. Obviously you found it... so help a fellow forumite out here?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:57 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm a bit surprised this hasn't already shown up on ISF, so I'll go ahead and contribute.

Here's the scenario: A professor at Evergreen University in Oregon protested a policy shift for the campus' annual "Day of Absence". Historically, the Day of Absence has seen minority students and faculty voluntarily absent themselves from campus on that day, in order to demonstrate the value of their contributions and presence at school. This year, however, it was proposed that instead of people of color choosing to stay home... they should instead insist that white people shouldn't be allowed to come to school. The professor, Bret Weinstein, protested this proposal as a move in the wrong direction:



As a result of his email, Professor Weinstein has since been subjected to verbal abuse and threats. Police have suggested that he refrain from coming to campus at present, as they cannot guarantee his safety.

Article:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...ring-professor

Video of the student objection outside of Professor Weinstein's office:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCZNCmMFwcI

Personally, I agree with Professor Weinstein. I am fully supportive of a day of absence, and if it were deemed appropriate by those involved I would happily absent myself in order to show support for that message. But I would be very offended if it were suggested that I not be allowed to come to campus on that day because of my skin color.

I am also struck by the complete lack of discourse being demonstrated by college students.
By the way, Evergreen is in Washington not Oregon.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 10:57 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
I tend to have sympathy for the professor in this story. But I can't seem to muster it this time. This insane ideology was shaped and molded by Weinstein and his fellow professors at Evergreen. They taught this ideology. Their students listened and believed it. This is a monster co-created by him. That it has turned on him now isn't sad, it's poetic justice.
Can you expand on the ideology that they shaped and molded, and what makes it monstrous?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:07 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
PTSD is an observable neurological condition. It is something that can be physically measured with modern medical equipment.

Behavior against a person based on that person's race is racism. That's the word you're looking for, not PTSD.
I'm talking about the students invoking black power. That reaction is a direct result of the acculturation of slavery and over 200 years of persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acculturation
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:11 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma

Repeated generational trauma, regardless of the cause, whether it's genocide or slavery, or even both, has lasting affects on a culture or race that isn't easily undone by signing an emancipation proclamation. This trauma was never addressed in the African American society so any problems with racism will never be resolved until that is addressed in treatment programs.


Now how this relates to the topic, the percentage of African Americans living in Washington state is small. The reason this whole situation happened was due to cultural insensitivity under the guise of a good cause. The last thing you want to ever do is accuse a hippy of being a hypocrite although they so often are. Nobody had a problem with this until they asked the white people to leave. I'm guessing Rashida is African American and it looks like it was her idea....LOLOLOL.

If they really want to stop racism, it stops with the assumptions that you make about people in general. You incorporate that into your everyday life, not set aside a day to think about it with like kind.
Does the same concept apply to Jewish people, Chinese people, First Nations, and both Irish & Scottish people in the US? A large portion of Irish & Scots in the US ended up here because England sent them over as "indentured servants" because of rebellion in Britain. Many Chinese people were severely mistreated, denied rights, and kept in extremely limited roles because of their ancestry and foreignness (there's a reason for Chinese Laundries and Restaurants being such a prevalent stereotype). And let's not even start on the abhorrent treatment of First Nations people time and again by the US government.

Basically, the US government has pretty much been total jerkwads to a ton of people over and over again.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What else could you call it?
How about "cultural memory"?

You can't have trauma without experience.

Quote:
The assumption, right or wrong, that someone doesn't have your best interests at heart based on your skin color because of what happened to your ancestors for hundreds of years isn't PTSD?
Well, it's a stupid assumption, to begin with. And no, it isn't.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:14 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It's very valid. Cultural identity is a part of what partially defines us as individuals. If you think of culture as an entity alone, and you have a person that identifies with that group or culture what do you think they are going to be taught generation after generation to preserve their safety? They will be taught not to trust the other entity or members of that group that identify with the persecuting culture. It's not a conscious decision at this point it's a default mindset. But the trauma didn't end after the civil war, African Americans might have been free on paper, but they are still fighting for equity in U.S. society as evidenced by the suicide and incarceration rates of young African American males.
None of that is PTSD.

As for the highlighted, I see people as individuals, not stereotypes or groups.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Now how this relates to the topic, the percentage of African Americans living in Washington state is small. The reason this whole situation happened was due to cultural insensitivity under the guise of a good cause. The last thing you want to ever do is accuse a hippy of being a hypocrite although they so often are. Nobody had a problem with this until they asked the white people to leave. I'm guessing Rashida is African American and it looks like it was her idea....LOLOLOL.
I don't know what you mean by the highlighted statement. What cultural insensitivity are you referring to?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:33 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So no evidence but a belief in this claim nonetheless. Is it a gut feeling?
If you go back to my original post on the topic, I pretty clearly prefaced it by saying this was just my opinion. I didn't say it was an established fact. I don't believe there is data to support the idea one way or another, but anecdotally speaking, I know it to be a factor in at least a couple of cases.

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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What exactly do you refer to with "crap?"

I don't disagree with you in theory, assuming that "crap like this" means "covering the stupid antics of one of the most insular liberal arts colleges as if it was the slightest bit representative of the nation as a whole." It's typical right-wing bias, where anything objectionable on the right is downplayed, but anything on the left is cause for mass hysteria.
Definitely a factor, the media bias. But it's also wrong, too.
Is "white-shaming" a term that has been invented yet?

If not I'd like to introduce it now as broadly applicable to events like these.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
If you go back to my original post on the topic, I pretty clearly prefaced it by saying this was just my opinion.
Yeah but opinion can be informed by facts. Yours isn't. So I'll file it under "gut feeling".
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Old 2nd June 2017, 11:53 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
If you go back to my original post on the topic, I pretty clearly prefaced it by saying this was just my opinion. I didn't say it was an established fact. I don't believe there is data to support the idea one way or another, but anecdotally speaking, I know it to be a factor in at least a couple of cases.
It's definitely a thing, it's related to the reason why over half a million ostensibly decent people voted for the BNP (an openly racist party of parochial incompetents) in the 2010 UK general election. They were concerned about immigration and what they perceived as a relegation to second-class citizenship, but every time they spoke out about it they were called racists and bigots. The main parties ignored the issue and so the voters felt pushed into taking extreme action, i.e. voting for the BNP. Happily it made little difference in the UK but in other European countries it has led to an exponential rise of the far right. Now clearly these are bigger topics than a bunch of racists and lunatics on a campus, and not directly comparable, but it is this sense of racial and national unfairness that, if elevated beyond a certain threshold, can cause people to over-compensate in their political leanings.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Can you expand on the ideology that they shaped and molded, and what makes it monstrous?
More interested in the clearly expressed fact that previously the Day of absence was a choice. The this year version was an attempt at a morally (and physically???)
enforced No Choice absence. One of these things is not in any way like the other.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:05 PM   #70
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I see a problem with that.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:07 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
BS. White middle-class Americans tend to support the GOP anyway. Do you have any evidence that this sort of nonsense, frustrating as it is, somehow converted them from one party to the other in large numbers?
I would say for sure it has. The number doesn't have to be extremely large to have a big effect. There are 2 parties. 2 or 3 out of 100 would have a large effect. I can only tell you what I observe. I'm not sure if the issue has been studied or who any definitive conclusions would be made.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:10 PM   #72
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Also has anyone else been stunned by the behavior of the college president in all of this? You get the feeling that if the protesters asked him to wear dress or pull them around in a cart like a donkey, he would have no problem doing it.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:12 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I would say for sure it has. The number doesn't have to be extremely large to have a big effect. There are 2 parties. 2 or 3 out of 100 would have a large effect. I can only tell you what I observe.
...which is?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:53 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What these young people are doing is wrong but transgenerational trauma or multigeneraltional PTSD related to persecution of a culture crosses all socioeconomic classes. They aren't acting like spoiled brats, they are venting rage that never had a voice before because we are told to get over it, stiff upper lip, and move on. There is a better way to do that, Martin Luther King had it right. So it wasn't a problem to ask all of the brown people to take a day of absence but when white people were asked to leave it caused a problem, see the hypocrisy? It works both ways.
No, I don't see the hypocrisy. Here, let me clarify this for you.

Prior to this year, brown people asked other brown people to take a day of absence with them to demonstrate to white people how valuable brown people are, and to show how integral brown people are to a society that has repeatedly undervalued them.

This year, brown people told white people that they should take a day of absence instead of them... but there isn't a clear explanation of what that is supposed to accomplish.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:57 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It is the same thing, there are different levels of severity for PTSD. One of those is paranoia or lack of trust that you won't be treated equitably.
I didn't realize that PTSD was an inherited condition...
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:58 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think that's uncharitable to Weinstein. Read this article he wrote:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-cam...140067a949560d

There's a major problem with many of the professors in academia and what they're teaching students, but Weinstein recognizes it, and he wasn't part of that problem.
Maybe it is uncharitable. It really depends on your subjective analysis of his continued involvement with a university that has promulgated critical race theory. He's been there for almost 15 years. I find him to be complicit in their behavior. You may not.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:58 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Two wrongs apparently do make a right to some people
Two wrongs never make a right. Two lefts don't make a right either - it takes three of them.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 01:01 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That isn't likely to happen until the trauma of slavery and its lasting affects on the people involved are addressed. You can't resolve something without addressing the root cause.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the people involved are all dead now.

Look, there are definitely societal issues around race in the US. There are inequities, there are discrepancies in treatment, and there are institutional carry-overs that disproportionately affect some classes of people.

But to call it PTSD caused by slavery really stretches the meaning of all the words in that sentence. We can discuss the effects and the problems without needing to resort to hyperbole.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 01:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Can you expand on this?

My understanding of the purpose and message of the Day of Absence is based on how it's been presented, and how it has historically been enacted (since the 70's)
I think the real purpose has nothing to do with equality, and everything with the acquisition of power for a small group of radical activist. That's why disagreement isn't tolerated. It isn't really about convincing people. The threats (be it violence, public shaming, the loss of a job) are integral to this purpose: people must be made to be afraid of opposing these activists.

Maybe things were different when this started in the 70's, but as Hoffer said, “Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” He's wrong, though: step 2 is optional.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 01:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Also has anyone else been stunned by the behavior of the college president in all of this? You get the feeling that if the protesters asked him to wear dress or pull them around in a cart like a donkey, he would have no problem doing it.
That's the kind of school Evergreen State is; it's long been a training ground for the extreme left wing. You may recall Rachel Corrie, the gal who managed to get herself run over by a bulldozer that was destroying some Palestinian houses in Israel (the IDF says they were connected to tunnels used to smuggle weapons). Corrie was from Evergreen State.
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