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Old 6th June 2017, 10:24 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Only if your grandparents survived and passed those patterns of behavior gained from the abuse onto your parents who then transmitted it down to successive generations.
I think the closest one can get to what I think you're talking about is "learned helplessness" which is actually a thing. Not like "cultural PTSD." I was diagnosed PTSD and, through therapy, discovered the root cause and was able to work through it. The root cause had nothing to do with generational anything. It was an actual series of events in my life where I felt my life threatened and was literally helpless to do anything about it. In response, I unknowingly developed (eventual) mal-adaptive traits in order to cope with situations which were similar in nature to the traumatic events. That's PTSD.
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Old 7th June 2017, 08:19 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Christ, I'm surprised the poor woman's still alive.
I know, seems like all that oppression ought to have crushed her like a wee little bug...
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Old 7th June 2017, 08:26 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
To the extent that race is inherited, so too must ideas about what that means to those who wear the skin.
No. Genetics and physical attributes are inherited. Beliefs and social norms are taught.

Ideas aren't inherited, there's no discussion there. Ideas are taught. Change the environment, change the curriculum, and different things are learned.

I will continue with the argument I previously made: It's one thing to talk about the burden of cultural expectations and beliefs and the impact they have on out-classes. It's something altogether different to say that education is an inherited attribute.

Beliefs are learned behaviors. Yes, they can be very difficult to escape - especially when many people don't even recognize that their expectations are learned beliefs as opposed to truths. But they can be escaped, minds can change, beliefs can change.

You can't change your genetics. At the very outer end of things, you can go through external procedures to change the appearance that your genetics gave you... but the underlying genetics are still the same. Natural hair color stays what it is, regardless of how many times you dye it.
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Old 7th June 2017, 08:35 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I think the closest one can get to what I think you're talking about is "learned helplessness" which is actually a thing. Not like "cultural PTSD." I was diagnosed PTSD and, through therapy, discovered the root cause and was able to work through it. The root cause had nothing to do with generational anything. It was an actual series of events in my life where I felt my life threatened and was literally helpless to do anything about it. In response, I unknowingly developed (eventual) mal-adaptive traits in order to cope with situations which were similar in nature to the traumatic events. That's PTSD.
I apologize if I made your condition seem trivial, it really wasn't my intent. I don't see it as "learned helplessness". I see it as a subconscious type of reaction to perceive something as a threat to your community based on a racial memory. As an example, focusing on police brutality as a form of oppression when the majority of homicides within the African American community are caused by black on black crime.

Now the same applies to the black students chanting, " black lives matter" in this particular situation. I didn't think it was the appropriate way to handle the situation. The entire problem was created at this university when they decided to segregate people to discuss the issue of racism. That is not a problem solved through segregation but through unification, being culturally sensitive to the damage done to a community, but also working towards healing and moving past those injuries. We all matter and 150 years out from legal slavery we haven't done the appropriate healing as a society.
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Old 7th June 2017, 08:41 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
There can't be that many living Holocaust survivors, yet this singular event has some serious ramifications for Jews. "Never forget." Arguably, even Jews who didn't have any stake whatsoever in the Holocaust still see it as a cultural touchstone.
A cultural touchstone yes - it's an important and formative event that shaped both Jewish and World culture. It shouldn't be forgotten, nor should Genghis Khan's war across Eurasia, nor should the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Nor should the gifting of blankets carrying smallpox to the indigenous people of the Americas. Nor should the Crusades or the Inquisition. None of those should be forgotten - they are critical elements of history that have created the foundation for our worldviews.

That doesn't, however, imply that the descendants of Holocaust survivors are currently experiencing trauma as a result of things that happened to their ancestors.
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Old 7th June 2017, 11:36 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
To the extent that race is inherited, so too must ideas about what that means to those who wear the skin.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No. Genetics and physical attributes are inherited. Beliefs and social norms are taught.

Ideas aren't inherited, there's no discussion there. Ideas are taught. Change the environment, change the curriculum, and different things are learned.
I don't think we disagree. My quote above refers to race itself as an idea. My skin color means something to me. What it means is what I've been taught about it. (Other than the straight biological fact that I don't burn in the sun.)

In other words, "race" fills two functions in that quote. One is inherited, the second is what being categorized as a particular race means to me. On one end of the scale my skin color identifies me as a target for bigotry, at the opposite end, my race says nothing about me at all. Those are two different "races." Biologically the same, culturally different.

Quote:
I will continue with the argument I previously made: It's one thing to talk about the burden of cultural expectations and beliefs and the impact they have on out-classes. It's something altogether different to say that education is an inherited attribute.
But take it a step further to see what I was after: We are taught that these attributes (skin color, gender, etc) are relevant in certain ways. We can hardly say that attitudes have not had enduring impact across generations.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
(some snipped)
That doesn't, however, imply that the descendants of Holocaust survivors are currently experiencing trauma as a result of things that happened to their ancestors.
I beg to differ. Consider where we might agree that a clear case of direct trauma existed. Someone gets raped. There's a victim and a perpetrator. One traumatic event.

1st derivative: The spouse of the victim, who attends the trial and "goes through everything" with their spouse.

2nd derivative: The children and grandchildren of the victim who only read about what happened and wonder if they might be the product of a rape/or descendants.

3rd derivative: Those who share a cultural basis of identification who are schooled in the mythology and take it to heart.

Now, who gets the diagnosis, bearing in mind that these "derivatives" aren't discrete, but interwoven - even at the 3rd step down, I get to watch the youtube videos, read a first person account of the rape and so on.
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Old 7th June 2017, 11:56 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I apologize if I made your condition seem trivial, it really wasn't my intent. I don't see it as "learned helplessness". I see it as a subconscious type of reaction to perceive something as a threat to your community based on a racial memory. As an example, focusing on police brutality as a form of oppression when the majority of homicides within the African American community are caused by black on black crime.

Now the same applies to the black students chanting, " black lives matter" in this particular situation. I didn't think it was the appropriate way to handle the situation. The entire problem was created at this university when they decided to segregate people to discuss the issue of racism. That is not a problem solved through segregation but through unification, being culturally sensitive to the damage done to a community, but also working towards healing and moving past those injuries. We all matter and 150 years out from legal slavery we haven't done the appropriate healing as a society.
That's more reasonable, but still you're using terms that do not apply. Slavery cannot be a 'racial memory'. A person cannot have an intuition they they were a slave unless they gain that information in their lifetime. A racial memory, more often called a genetic memory, is present at birth and can manifest as intuitive abilities or fears. A knowledge of slavery cannot be a racial memory.
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Old 7th June 2017, 12:38 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I don't think we disagree. My quote above refers to race itself as an idea. My skin color means something to me. What it means is what I've been taught about it. (Other than the straight biological fact that I don't burn in the sun.)

In other words, "race" fills two functions in that quote. One is inherited, the second is what being categorized as a particular race means to me. On one end of the scale my skin color identifies me as a target for bigotry, at the opposite end, my race says nothing about me at all. Those are two different "races." Biologically the same, culturally different.



But take it a step further to see what I was after: We are taught that these attributes (skin color, gender, etc) are relevant in certain ways. We can hardly say that attitudes have not had enduring impact across generations.



I beg to differ. Consider where we might agree that a clear case of direct trauma existed. Someone gets raped. There's a victim and a perpetrator. One traumatic event.

1st derivative: The spouse of the victim, who attends the trial and "goes through everything" with their spouse.

2nd derivative: The children and grandchildren of the victim who only read about what happened and wonder if they might be the product of a rape/or descendants.

3rd derivative: Those who share a cultural basis of identification who are schooled in the mythology and take it to heart.

Now, who gets the diagnosis, bearing in mind that these "derivatives" aren't discrete, but interwoven - even at the 3rd step down, I get to watch the youtube videos, read a first person account of the rape and so on.
I hear what you're saying, and I see your point. But I disagree with casting it as trauma. Empathy isn't trauma. In your example above, there's definitely an effect on the spouse and the children. But they are NOT traumatized by the rape in the same way that the victim was. Not even close. And that 3rd derivative, not even in the same category at all.

A tsunami hits Indonesia. The people present who experienced that event would be traumatized. The people who lost close friends and relatives might experience trauma, but many would not - they would experience grief and loss but not trauma. No actual direct harm has been done to them. People in the US who heard about it the next day and felt very bad for the victims of the Tsunami are experiencing empathy, not trauma.

A traumatic experience is just that - an experience. It's not vicarious.
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:21 PM   #209
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Consequences

Seattle Times editorial: "For Evergreen, the chaos of the 2016-17 school year should become a case study in the First Amendment and the aching need for better civil discourse. The funky, nontraditional college has a unique role in the state higher-education system. But for it to survive, Evergreen must impose consequences when a student protest hijacks other students’ learning."
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:37 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Seattle Times editorial: "For Evergreen, the chaos of the 2016-17 school year should become a case study in the First Amendment and the aching need for better civil discourse. The funky, nontraditional college has a unique role in the state higher-education system. But for it to survive, Evergreen must impose consequences when a student protest hijacks other students’ learning."
I'm betting it'll go the other way. The protest *is* the learning, and the only consequences will be for Incorrect Thought that undermines the protest.
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:57 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A traumatic experience is just that - an experience. It's not vicarious.
I don't think its quite that simple, because at some point, all experience becomes a memory of that experience and under your description, then vicarious.

Suppose I have a memory of being abused as a child. Several decades have passed, but I still have some effects - for example, I might instinctively twist away from a certain type of "looming" contact with another person, regardless of their actual intent to harm.

I ascribe this sudden withdrawal as a remnant of my (nearly) extinguished childhood trauma. Minor but annoying.

Now, suppose I find out that the cause of my trauma is myth?

My flinch reflex is still there. It's just become unattached to an actual history.

Or, contrary-wise, I never find out it's a myth. Does that even matter?

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Old 7th June 2017, 02:26 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I don't think its quite that simple, because at some point, all experience becomes a memory of that experience and under your description, then vicarious.

Suppose I have a memory of being abused as a child. Several decades have passed, but I still have some effects - for example, I might instinctively twist away from a certain type of "looming" contact with another person, regardless of their actual intent to harm.

I ascribe this sudden withdrawal as a remnant of my (nearly) extinguished childhood trauma. Minor but annoying.

Now, suppose I find out that the cause of my trauma is myth?

My flinch reflex is still there. It's just become unattached to an actual history.

Or, contrary-wise, I never find out it's a myth. Does that even matter?
I think you're really straining the definition of trauma here.

American Psychological Association
Quote:
Trauma
Trauma
Trauma is an emotional response to a terrible event like an accident, rape or natural disaster. Immediately after the event, shock and denial are typical. Longer term reactions include unpredictable emotions, flashbacks, strained relationships and even physical symptoms like headaches or nausea.
Sidran Institute - Traumatic Stress Education and Advocacy
Quote:
We all use the word “trauma” in every day language to mean a highly stressful event. But the key to understanding traumatic events is that it refers to extreme stress that overwhelms a person’s ability to cope.
...
Thus, a traumatic event or situation creates psychological trauma when it overwhelms the individual’s ability to cope, and leaves that person fearing death, annihilation, mutilation, or psychosis. The individual may feel emotionally, cognitively, and physically overwhelmed.
Wikipedia
Quote:
sychological trauma is a type of damage to the mind that occurs as a result of a severely distressing event. Trauma is often the result of an overwhelming amount of stress that exceeds one's ability to cope, or integrate the emotions involved with that experience.[1] A traumatic event involves one's experience, or repeating events of being overwhelmed that can be precipitated in weeks, years, or even decades as the person struggles to cope with the immediate circumstances, eventually leading to serious, long-term negative consequences.
None of these definitions seem to suggest that trauma is in any way handed down from parent to child, or is reasonably acquired vicariously through someone else's experience.

None of your argument, or Jodie's really supports anything that could be reasonably described as "Cultural PTSD" or "Racial Memory" or "Trauma to the Collective Consciousness".
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Old 7th June 2017, 02:27 PM   #213
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Anyway... None of this diversion down the rabbit hole of what constitutes vicariously acquired group PTSD is really relevant to the topic at hand.
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Old 7th June 2017, 03:43 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Now, suppose I find out that the cause of my trauma is myth?
Then you were delusional, not traumatized.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:04 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then you were delusional, not traumatized.
The question is whether the two states can be distinguished and if the diagnosis is really the same.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:12 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The question is whether the two states can be distinguished and if the diagnosis is really the same.
Bit of a wild guess, seeing as I'm not a doctor, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say yes, the two states can be distinguished and no, the diagnoses really aren't the same.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:25 PM   #217
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Back to the wackiness at the college in question, apparently you can't get away from themes of oppression or privilege even in the hard sciences. For example, in one of their biology programs we have this offering : http://evergreen.edu/catalog/offerin...nd-power-16338

Quote:
Biology is also shaped and defined by cultural norms. Accordingly, we will collectively dismantle the idea that women are defined as such by an innate reproductive capacity, and the syllabus will include texts that address the experiences of trans and gender-nonconforming individuals. We will also discuss the ways in which contraception, abortion, forced sterilization, genetic testing, and other forms of reproductive control both reflect, and have been used to perpetuate, systemic racism. In all aspects of the program, students will be expected to engage in thoughtful and occasionally challenging conversations about how power and privilege operate on a variety of bodies, including our own.
[emph mine]


I guess for those who wanted to major in a life science, and not something cold and impersonal like feminist glaciology.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:27 PM   #218
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I can get PTSD from a bad dream? Holy cow!

I have followed this debate for a few pages and it's ridiculous.

Why is it so damn important for some people in this thread that PTSD can be suffered by people who didn't actually suffer trauma? Can't you just say, "Ya that does sound stupid", and move on?

Are people arguing for the sake of arguing, because I don't see any purpose at all to this, except to try and push responsibility for ones actions onto someone else. Aaaahhhh that's what it is!

Are people actually claiming they have PTSD because they're black? LOL.

My friend got attacked by a gang of black men and women last week. Kicked in the head many times, could have killed her, for no reason. Just a random robbery with a vicious beating.

She's not suffering PTSD, she's pissed off, talking to the cops, seeing the doctor and is back at work.

Are people here saying that the people who attacked her have PTSD because they are black? Oh those poor things...stupidest debate I've seen here in awhile.

Oh and the cops let the one attacker go that was caught. They must have thought she (and the 6 other assailants) was traumatized from kicking a 110 pound pound girls head too many times.

Asterisk you.

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Back to the wackiness at the college in question,
Good idea.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:31 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I was going to bring that up but I don't believe the evidence is very impressive.
It's Lamarckism dressed up.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:46 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sooooo.... Do I get to have cultural PTSD because I'm a woman? I mean, my kind has been oppressed for a huge portion of human history, so that's got to leave a lasting mark, right? Plus half my family is black, so do I get to claim their slavery-based ancestral PTSD too? Damn, my niece has the triple threat here - she's half black, jewish, and female! That's the trifecta of inherited PTSD right there!

Plus scholarships. She's totes set for college.
If she were half black, half Jewish, and half woman you'd have something.
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:57 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The question is whether the two states can be distinguished and if the diagnosis is really the same.
No evidence has been presented that the diagnoses are the same. We need not find an explanation for what doesn't exist.
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Old 7th June 2017, 05:09 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A cultural touchstone yes - it's an important and formative event that shaped both Jewish and World culture. It shouldn't be forgotten, nor should Genghis Khan's war across Eurasia, nor should the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Nor should the gifting of blankets carrying smallpox to the indigenous people of the Americas. Nor should the Crusades or the Inquisition. None of those should be forgotten - they are critical elements of history that have created the foundation for our worldviews.

That doesn't, however, imply that the descendants of Holocaust survivors are currently experiencing trauma as a result of things that happened to their ancestors.
I agree with you but not everybody agrees with us. Try googling "Second generation Holocaust survivor."
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Old 7th June 2017, 05:12 PM   #223
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It must be that all these ills fall in the PTSD spectrum. Now send them all a check.
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Old 7th June 2017, 05:28 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's more reasonable, but still you're using terms that do not apply. Slavery cannot be a 'racial memory'. A person cannot have an intuition they they were a slave unless they gain that information in their lifetime. A racial memory, more often called a genetic memory, is present at birth and can manifest as intuitive abilities or fears. A knowledge of slavery cannot be a racial memory.
Slavery just in the United States existed for 200 years but Africans were used as slaves throughout the world for much longer than that. I believe the repetitive abuse/fear was a major influence on African American culture both directly through handed down attitudes from ancestors who were slaves and by identifying with that particular cultural group here on U.S. shores. Psychology had no bearing on policies 150 years ago, I doubt anyone gave the freed African Americans much thought as to how to handle the transition from slavery to freedom. Obviously not as evidenced by civil rights movement 100 years after the fact. If the crux of the problem, the trauma from the devastation that slavery had on the culture as a whole, isn't addressed then we will continue to suffer the consequences of racism. I think it has some impact on this situation simply because no one is taking the cultural trauma that the African American students are a part of into consideration when making a decision to segregate the student population for debates on racism.
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Old 7th June 2017, 08:35 PM   #225
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Getting back to the matter at hand, I found two interesting articles on the Chronicle of Higher Education.

It seems that Weinstein is not a stranger to controversy, back in the '80s he took a fraternity to task for hiring strippers for a pledge party and managed to get them suspended for it, so he's no stranger to vicious harassment.

Quote:
Curiously, it’s not the first time. Nearly three decades ago, when he was a freshman at the University of Pennsylvania, Bret Weinstein almost single-handedly caused a stir that polarized the campus, led to his being repeatedly harassed and threatened, and eventually shamed the university’s leadership into taking action. That story, buried in the archives of The Daily Pennsylvanian, the student newspaper, is enlightening both as a reminder of the longstanding fissures around race on campuses, and also, perhaps, as a reflection on the character and convictions of Mr. Weinstein.
http://www.chronicle.com/article/The...ntentgrid_hp_2

The second is an Op-ed piece that is well worth reading:

Quote:
Wanting to censor those whose views one finds odious and offensive is understandable. Actually silencing them is dangerous, though, because censorship is a two-way street. It is an illusion for minority groups to believe that they can censor the speech of others today without having their own expression muzzled tomorrow.
http://www.chronicle.com/article/The...ntentgrid_hp_2

There is also this which turned up on the Right Wing College Fix website, and which claims to have been written by an Evergreen Student. This was the most interesting line:

Quote:
The response I get in person and online can be summarized thusly: “Asking about racism is perpetuating racism.” “Seeking evidence is oppressive.”
https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/33084/
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Old 8th June 2017, 02:25 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Slavery just in the United States existed for 200 years but Africans were used as slaves throughout the world for much longer than that. I believe the repetitive abuse/fear was a major influence on African American culture both directly through handed down attitudes from ancestors who were slaves and by identifying with that particular cultural group here on U.S. shores. Psychology had no bearing on policies 150 years ago, I doubt anyone gave the freed African Americans much thought as to how to handle the transition from slavery to freedom. Obviously not as evidenced by civil rights movement 100 years after the fact. If the crux of the problem, the trauma from the devastation that slavery had on the culture as a whole, isn't addressed then we will continue to suffer the consequences of racism. I think it has some impact on this situation simply because no one is taking the cultural trauma that the African American students are a part of into consideration when making a decision to segregate the student population for debates on racism.
That's not what I was talking about, I was addressing your incorrect use of terminology: first, 'PTSD', then 'racial memory'. Neither of these play any part whatsoever in the idea of cultural baggage. In relation to the latter, I'm sure that there is still a legacy of slavery in the US but these overt efforts to give this cultural hangover credit for the failings of every black person in America by absolving them of personal responsibility, and patronise them by drumming it into their heads that they cannot possible get on in life without being permitted to do so by the white man, is divisive, counterproductive and a considerable retrograde force in itself.
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Old 8th June 2017, 06:03 AM   #227
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A letter from a group of students at Evergreen that I found via this right-wing article.

http://freepdfhosting.com/840d72d60d.pdf

The article that linked to the letter is linked below:

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/lett...witch-hunting/

I recommend reading the letter before reading the article.
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Old 8th June 2017, 06:08 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
These are people at the comparative height of privilege : living in the USofA and going to University. But if you can try to claim membership in a generally marginalized class (women, minorities, non-straight, etc.) then you can dispense with measuring your own life on its specifics. You're suddenly one of the Oppressed group, irrespective of how easy or hard your individual life has been. No, it didn't happen to me or my family, but it happened to someone who looks, prays, or has sex the way I do, and so their oppression is mine.
Indeed. I'm a left-handed ginger, and we all know how those groups were oppressed, discriminated against and physically assaulted in the past, so that makes me doubly-oppressed in addition to having generational PTSD. Now give me social advantages lest I accuse you of invalidating my experiences!

And don't bother rightsplaining your way out of this! You have no idea what my people had to go through because of you dark-haired oppressors!
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Old 8th June 2017, 06:55 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Try it this way. The fact that you do not feel oppressed has no bearing on those who do feel oppressed. The disease (cultural oppression) is defined by those who evince the symptoms, not by those who manage to avoid the illness.
I thought it was defined by the objective difference from the norm. Silly me.
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Old 8th June 2017, 06:59 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Yes.
Feelings define reality, then.
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:02 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Feelings define reality, then.
Sometimes, yes.
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:15 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Sometimes, yes.
Oh, this should be good: when?
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:23 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, this should be good: when?
I am angry. I am afraid.
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:28 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I am angry. I am afraid.
That's funny, because neither of those things define objective reality. Because you're afraid, for instance, doesn't mean there's a real danger present.

In fact, that's precisely the problem with feelings: they're meant to play the numbers, not give us real information.
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:42 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I am angry. I am afraid.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Feelings define reality, then.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's funny, because neither of those things define objective reality. Because you're afraid, for instance, doesn't mean there's a real danger present.
That word is missing from your previous version. Did I get the old bait and switch?

Quote:
In fact, that's precisely the problem with feelings: they're meant to play the numbers, not give us real information.
Your turn. What is "real information?"
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:47 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That word is missing from your previous version. Did I get the old bait and switch?
There's only one reality, and it's the objective one. Don't play games.

Quote:
Your turn. What is "real information?"
Since I'm pretty sure you know what those two words mean, I'll bet that you know exactly what it is.

...unless you need me to tell you what "is" means.

But that's a fine way to dodge the issue, which is that emotions do not, in fact, define reality.
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Old 8th June 2017, 11:01 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I can get PTSD from a bad dream? Holy cow!

I have followed this debate for a few pages and it's ridiculous.

Why is it so damn important for some people in this thread that PTSD can be suffered by people who didn't actually suffer trauma? Can't you just say, "Ya that does sound stupid", and move on?

Are people arguing for the sake of arguing, because I don't see any purpose at all to this, except to try and push responsibility for ones actions onto someone else. Aaaahhhh that's what it is!

Are people actually claiming they have PTSD because they're black? LOL.

My friend got attacked by a gang of black men and women last week. Kicked in the head many times, could have killed her, for no reason. Just a random robbery with a vicious beating.

She's not suffering PTSD, she's pissed off, talking to the cops, seeing the doctor and is back at work.

Are people here saying that the people who attacked her have PTSD because they are black? Oh those poor things...stupidest debate I've seen here in awhile.

Oh and the cops let the one attacker go that was caught. They must have thought she (and the 6 other assailants) was traumatized from kicking a 110 pound pound girls head too many times.

Asterisk you.



Good idea.
Hope her attackers die hard slowly and burn in hell - slow grilling on a long spit entering anally.
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Old 8th June 2017, 11:21 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But that's a fine way to dodge the issue, which is that emotions do not, in fact, define reality.
This makes me feel sad.

It makes me feel sad because the subject deserves more than the topic will allow. We've taken a tortuous path from Professor objects --> unsupported oppression --> PTSD and language redefinition --> culturally created facts --> whether or not feelings are real. I'm saddened because the thread drift can't support another extension.

I see two choices before me. In one I try to go down the rabbit hole and risk getting shut down without doing a good job of exploring the (new) topic. The other choice has me abandoning the segue altogether.

Those choices, and the behaviors they produce, are not subjective, but observable consequences of my feelings about how to proceed. How I feel now will determine what future state I will attempt to produce.

I feel sad.

Last edited by marplots; 8th June 2017 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 8th June 2017, 11:32 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It makes me feel sad because the subject deserves more than the topic will allow. We've taken a tortuous path from Professor objects --> unsupported oppression --> PTSD and language redefinition --> culturally created facts --> whether or not feelings are real.
Well, that's funny because no one ever said feelings are not real. In fact it was never a question.

The question is whether feelings determine/define reality. They do not.
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Old 8th June 2017, 11:46 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, that's funny because no one ever said feelings are not real. In fact it was never a question.

The question is whether feelings determine/define reality. They do not.
OK, feelings are real, but they don't determine/define reality?

Say I decide, based on a feeling, whether to turn right or left. (Or keep betting for another roll of the dice.) Is what happens next real or not real?
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