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Old 16th June 2017, 10:42 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What's "enough?"
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Old 16th June 2017, 12:13 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What's "enough?"
"Enough" is the balance point between raising awareness and creating allies... and engendering entitlement attitudes and inventing enemies.
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Old 16th June 2017, 01:27 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn't the issue. That's the goal. The protesters got what they want: a payoff. These sorts of "equality" positions are make-work for radical activists. They can't get real jobs, so they agitate for the creation of fake jobs. The point isn't that Evergreen will not be more equitable, the point is that the President is offering them money. This is danegeld. And now, Evergreen will never, ever be rid of the dane.
I think they had already bigger problem then getting rid of Dane...
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Old 16th June 2017, 01:49 PM   #324
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Here is an interview with Bret Weinstein on the Rubin Report:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

He is anything but racist. The group think of the students and the bullying here is truly something to behold. The control left.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:09 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Here is an interview with Bret Weinstein on the Rubin Report:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

He is anything but racist. The group think of the students and the bullying here is truly something to behold. The control left.
That's actually one of the complaints by the students. Weinstein is erudite, focused, and thoughtful, but he has an unfair rhetorical advantage. His position has been clarified while that of the loosely formed student group has not and cannot be while retaining the essential diversity if views they wish to represent.

There is no single spokesperson for the students so Weinstein gets to play in the media while they get ignored as a group. There's a subsequent power dynamic that emerges instead of the fruitful dialogue the students might wish for. The more Weinstein shapes the arguments, the worse it gets for any real change.

What I have not heard Weinstein offering, as a fair and honest communicator, is the students' point of view. So yes, they get frustrated when he takes the matter public, because it's seen as recruiting, and finding support, from outsiders instead of institutional stakeholders.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:13 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That's actually one of the complaints by the students. Weinstein is erudite, focused, and thoughtful, but he has an unfair rhetorical advantage. His position has been clarified while that of the loosely formed student group has not and cannot be while retaining the essential diversity if views they wish to represent.

There is no single spokesperson for the students so Weinstein gets to play in the media while they get ignored as a group. There's a subsequent power dynamic that emerges instead of the fruitful dialogue the students might wish for. The more Weinstein shapes the arguments, the worse it gets for any real change.

What I have not heard Weinstein offering, as a fair and honest communicator, is the students' point of view. So yes, they get frustrated when he takes the matter public, because it's seen as recruiting, and finding support, from outsiders instead of institutional stakeholders.
So it's Weinstein's job now to promote a point of view that he doesn't agree with?
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:25 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The more Weinstein shapes the arguments, the worse it gets for any real change.
What is this mythical thing "real change"? And what makes you think the students would accomplish it, sans opposition from Weinstein?
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:29 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
So it's Weinstein's job now to promote a point of view that he doesn't agree with?
He's an academic, so yes. If not promote, at least explain.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:37 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What is this mythical thing "real change"? And what makes you think the students would accomplish it, sans opposition from Weinstein?
It may be unobtainium and mythical. But so is Weinstein's version. The point is to dialogue, to see what emerges. Weinstein has adopted the role of charismatic spokesperson - which he is good at - a professional speaker/teacher against students who are just learning their places in the world. His role should be coach, not opponent.

This level of mismatch always made me wince when Christopher Hitchens did it. Too entertaining (in the sense of logically entertaining) to be serious. One gets the sense their is another, unspoken side behind the curtain.

Last edited by marplots; 16th June 2017 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:41 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That's actually one of the complaints by the students. Weinstein is erudite, focused, and thoughtful, but he has an unfair rhetorical advantage. His position has been clarified while that of the loosely formed student group has not and cannot be while retaining the essential diversity if views they wish to represent.

There is no single spokesperson for the students so Weinstein gets to play in the media while they get ignored as a group. There's a subsequent power dynamic that emerges instead of the fruitful dialogue the students might wish for. The more Weinstein shapes the arguments, the worse it gets for any real change.

What I have not heard Weinstein offering, as a fair and honest communicator, is the students' point of view. So yes, they get frustrated when he takes the matter public, because it's seen as recruiting, and finding support, from outsiders instead of institutional stakeholders.
I don't even know how to respond to this. Of course he has an advantage: he is smart and reasonable. The students are a lord of the flies situation and their views are ridiculous, they are not to be taken seriously by anybody. They can protest and the media can choose to give their absurd viewpoint a platform or not. Bloggers can interview them or not interview them.
In the larger picture there is this strange dynamic on the far far left where it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, the only thing that matters is power and some vague notion of fairness so we can't tell who is wrong in a police shooting, only that the cops are always wrong because of the power dynamic so we have a situation where innocent people are killed by cops and where somebody attacks a cop, and is subsequently killed in self defense, and these are seen as exactly the same thing.
Bloggers are journalists are free to interview any of the students but what would be the point?
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:52 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I don't even know how to respond to this. Of course he has an advantage: he is smart and reasonable. The students are a lord of the flies situation and their views are ridiculous, they are not to be taken seriously by anybody. They can protest and the media can choose to give their absurd viewpoint a platform or not. Bloggers can interview them or not interview them.
What do you think those views are?
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:54 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I don't even know how to respond to this. Of course he has an advantage: he is smart and reasonable. The students are a lord of the flies situation and their views are ridiculous, they are not to be taken seriously by anybody. They can protest and the media can choose to give their absurd viewpoint a platform or not. Bloggers can interview them or not interview them.
In the larger picture there is this strange dynamic on the far far left where it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, the only thing that matters is power and some vague notion of fairness so we can't tell who is wrong in a police shooting, only that the cops are always wrong because of the power dynamic so we have a situation where innocent people are killed by cops and where somebody attacks a cop, and is subsequently killed in self defense, and these are seen as exactly the same thing.
Bloggers are journalists are free to interview any of the students but what would be the point?
Let me reword some of this. This is by no means universal but I see some people on the left that always root for the underdog in any given situation even when the underdog is wrong or immoral. "Free Abu-Jamal" and so on.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:59 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Let me reword some of this. This is by no means universal but I see some people on the left that always root for the underdog in any given situation even when the underdog is wrong or immoral. "Free Abu-Jamal" and so on.
All the positions in this case are leftish. Weinstein isn't a conservative.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:29 PM   #334
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I have to step back from what I said earlier. I'd seen three or four clips/podcasts with Weinstein, but the one posted above was new to me. In it (about 35:00) Weinstein does offer an explanation for the students' behavior. So when I said he didn't I was incorrect.
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Old 16th June 2017, 04:53 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
All the positions in this case are leftish. Weinstein isn't a conservative.
I know. I'm not trying to make a blanket accusation, many on the left, even the far left, have a perfectly functioning moral compass but there is a pathology that infects SOME on this extreme where the underdog is always the good guy.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:19 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It may be unobtainium and mythical. But so is Weinstein's version. The point is to dialogue, to see what emerges.
If you think the protesters want dialogue, you haven't been paying attention. Seriously, they have no interest in it.

Quote:
One gets the sense their is another, unspoken side behind the curtain.
Absolutely, but not in the way you presume. What's hidden isn't the merits of the protesters' side, but their actual goals. Which are just a naked power grab, which has succeeded.

You claim Weistein has the power here, but events on the ground prove you wrong. The protesters won. They gained concessions from the university, Weinstein didn't. And the reason they won is that the merits of the argument were always irrelevant.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:25 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Let me reword some of this. This is by no means universal but I see some people on the left that always root for the underdog in any given situation even when the underdog is wrong or immoral. "Free Abu-Jamal" and so on.
“Of all evil I deem you capable: Therefore I want good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:26 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You claim Weistein has the power here, but events on the ground prove you wrong. The protesters won. They gained concessions from the university, Weinstein didn't. And the reason they won is that the merits of the argument were always irrelevant.
Or, alternatively, they were right and deserved the concessions they got. Truth to power.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:30 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Or, alternatively, they were right and deserved the concessions they got. Truth to power.
They didn't get concessions because they were right. They got concessions because they made the university hurt enough to surrender.

And the concessions they got do nothing to solve any actual problems. They are simply a mechanism to transfer money (and power) from taxpayers to radical activists. And because of the additional costs that such makework programs impose, it will merely exacerbate issues of inequality.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:36 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That's actually one of the complaints by the students. Weinstein is erudite, focused, and thoughtful, but he has an unfair rhetorical advantage. His position has been clarified while that of the loosely formed student group has not and cannot be while retaining the essential diversity if views they wish to represent.

There is no single spokesperson for the students so Weinstein gets to play in the media while they get ignored as a group. There's a subsequent power dynamic that emerges instead of the fruitful dialogue the students might wish for. The more Weinstein shapes the arguments, the worse it gets for any real change.

What I have not heard Weinstein offering, as a fair and honest communicator, is the students' point of view. So yes, they get frustrated when he takes the matter public, because it's seen as recruiting, and finding support, from outsiders instead of institutional stakeholders.
Reasonable man fails to check his privilege, looks better than the baying mob.
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Old 16th June 2017, 11:01 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
He's an academic, so yes. If not promote, at least explain.
No. It is not his job at all. They want to promote their view, it is their job to do that. Not oppositions.
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Old 17th June 2017, 12:13 AM   #342
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Short version.
I seem to recall a parable about specs, eyes, and seeing clearly. Oddly, that spec calls itself Truth, but it is really made of sticky dogma. Skeptical eyewash highly recommended.

Slightly longer: Hangman Truth, the Great Enabler.
One question is how long this youthful phase lasts and what it may portend. If permanent, a real problem.... But if not, also a problem. If it's any indication, most of the hippies and longhairs of the 1970s got ponytails and went Wall Street yuppie in a flash when adulthood came along. Vietnam draft? Me hippie. Oil shock aftermath, no jobs? Me yuppie. Quick cash, if I agree to make my grandkids pay? Sure! Me GOP. But hey, no matter the stage in life, or the current state of idiocy, by golly, I'm always right-as-rain (this week), and so should rule the world/be considered greatest. And what became of those hippies? Now I-didn't-inhale, I only-watch-Fox retirees. "Gimme my Medicare, but stiff those mooching whoevers who are not me." Sicko.

The real problem is the constant, uncritical flocking to strange attractors posing as definitive ideological answers and variations on personal salvation/vindication. Back and forth, to and fro, with one common denominator: "Will flavor-of-the-week-thinking improve my lot?" Cherry picking college kids/professors as the issue explains nothing about the prevalence of loose thinking, unmoored reasoning, and slavish dedication to the most convenient answers across generations. Left and right. Nah, the search for truth engines and the prestige or advantage they bring sucks, has always sucked, and will continue to suck. The happy few with a tad of sense speak of "provisionally true, best-fit models," not Hangman Truth, the Great Enabler of Horror. Pat answers are for patsies.
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:03 PM   #343
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Has it been mentioned already that the "activists" were roaming the campus with baseball bats even before the Weinstein incident?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY002a-ngsM

And held the administration hostage, not even allowing to let them go to the toilet unsupervised to prevent escape?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msfsp5Ofz4g

Technically illegal, but of course nobody pressed charges.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:58 PM   #344
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Even though this clip is presented as showing how wrong the activists' position is, if you actually listen to what the woman is saying, she makes sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doUn0WY33YU
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:06 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Even though this clip is presented as showing how wrong the activists' position is, if you actually listen to what the woman is saying, she makes sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doUn0WY33YU
Can you summarize her point for me? I can tell she is upset, but I have no idea, specifically, what her complaint is.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:12 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Can you summarize her point for me? I can tell she is upset, but I have no idea, specifically, what her complaint is.
She wants the administration to listen to the student complaints - I take it they are having a meeting for that reason - instead of pushing an agenda on the students. And, if they can't agree to that, they ought to just leave.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:20 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
She wants the administration to listen to the student complaints - I take it they are having a meeting for that reason - instead of pushing an agenda on the students. And, if they can't agree to that, they ought to just leave.
And the students began shouting "go inside or go home" over and over. What is there to listen to?
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:23 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
And the students began shouting "go inside or go home" over and over. What is there to listen to?
The meeting was inside the building.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:36 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The meeting was inside the building.
Even then, I don't see what that would accomplish. There is very strong evidence that one side of this conversation is explicitly opposed to reason. It's like asking a biologist to go to a creationist convention to help resolve disagreements.
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Old 17th June 2017, 10:51 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Even then, I don't see what that would accomplish. There is very strong evidence that one side of this conversation is explicitly opposed to reason. It's like asking a biologist to go to a creationist convention to help resolve disagreements.
With the difference being the biologists are working for the creationists.
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Old 17th June 2017, 11:03 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
With the difference being the biologists are working for the creationists.
You're free to stretch the analogy thin if you want, but you are badly missing the point.

If it is the case that the protesters are not interested in addressing the disagreement in a reasonable or honest way*, then why should the professors spend their time discussing matters with them?

*If you disagree with this part, let me know
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Old 17th June 2017, 11:07 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You're free to stretch the analogy thin if you want, but you are badly missing the point.

If it is the case that the protesters are not interested in addressing the disagreement in a reasonable or honest way*, then why should the professors spend their time discussing matters with them?

*If you disagree with this part, let me know
She makes the point that the time for discussion is past because they aren't getting results. Instead, they get nice sounding words and no action. They want to be heard, not "reasoned" with. I'd argue the word "honest" in there.

The professors work for the students.
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Old 18th June 2017, 12:33 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
She makes the point that the time for discussion is past because they aren't getting results. Instead, they get nice sounding words and no action. They want to be heard, not "reasoned" with. I'd argue the word "honest" in there.

The professors work for the students.
You've lost the plot.

She says the time for discussion is past. You say that she wants them to show up at a meeting. Presumably, something other than a discussion will occur at said meeting. I have no clue what you think will happen, nor what you think the likely result will be, nor why you think it will make more progress than the other meetings did.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:14 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You've lost the plot.

She says the time for discussion is past.
Correct.

Quote:
You say that she wants them to show up at a meeting. Presumably, something other than a discussion will occur at said meeting.
Correct.

Quote:
I have no clue what you think will happen, nor what you think the likely result will be, nor why you think it will make more progress than the other meetings did.
We don't know what will happen, the meeting hasn't happened yet. She's telling them the structure in a "take-it-or-leave-it" manner.

If you want to participate under these terms, go to the meeting. If you don't want to participate, go home. Seems pretty plain.
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:18 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
She wants the administration to listen to the student complaints - I take it they are having a meeting for that reason - instead of pushing an agenda on the students. And, if they can't agree to that, they ought to just leave.
It's not at all clear that the haven't listened to student complaints.

It's also entirely possible that student complaints were unreasonable and the correct thing to do is to say so.
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:23 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The professors work for the students.
No they don't. They work for a school that is selling the students an education. The school decides what that education entails and the students decide whether or not they want to purchase it. That transaction doesn't mean that anyone "works for" the students.

Of course their input is valuable. And there is certainly an obligation to be honest about what sort of education the students will be getting. But if the school administration has a particular view about the best way to go about educating students and those students don't agree, they are free to attend a different institution. Their is no necessary obligation on the school to make changes that they don't consider to be in their interests.
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Old 18th June 2017, 04:56 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It's not at all clear that the haven't listened to student complaints.
Then they ought to leave.

Quote:
It's also entirely possible that student complaints were unreasonable and the correct thing to do is to say so.
Except there's no "say so" about it, this time. The speaker makes it clear that they have no interest in dialogue at this point. Part of the complaint is that staff (or whatever committee she's addressing - the woman is staff as well) attempts to shape the conversation in service of their own ends.

I think of it more in terms of a protest march. You have the marchers, in a group with signs, all chanting whatever slogan they deem most important. One could have a counter-demonstration, but it's not needed for the purposes of the march. It's one sided. They just want to be heard and show evidence of their group affiliation and concerns.
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:21 AM   #358
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They failed at communicating effectively. Perhaps more schooling is needed.
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Old 18th June 2017, 06:35 AM   #359
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See, if you replace 'listen' with 'capitulate' then things make a lot more sense.

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Old 18th June 2017, 09:17 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
They just want to be heard and show evidence of their group affiliation and concerns.
Bwahahahahaha!

No.

They don't just want to be heard. They want to be bought off. Which the school is trying to do with these concessions. It's a protection racket.
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