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Old 13th June 2017, 08:28 PM   #1
Matthew Best
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Huge fire in London

24-story block Grenfell Tower in West Kensington is fully ablaze. Locals are reporting people and children trapped inside with little hope of escape.

Absolutely horrible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40269625
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:39 PM   #2
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Looks like there may well be major casualties. The fire started at about 1 in the morning when many people will have been asleep.

I wonder if this will prove to be relevant:

http://www.frmjournal.com/news/news_...ns-review.html
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:46 PM   #3
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Some horrific photos on the Guardian page about this:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...y-latimer-road
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:47 PM   #4
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They're keeping track of it over here.

Absolutely horrible.

CCN and FOX reporting people trapped in the top floors.

I hope it isn't what I'm thinking.
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:48 PM   #5
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“There was a woman with a child. I saw her waving maybe 30mins ago,” said a man who asked not to be named. “She said I’ve got a child ... I saw them spraying her window.”

Hadil Alamily said in the past hour she saw “someone jump on fire from the top floor”. She had seen him flashing a light in an SOS pattern.

“He was screaming help, help, help but no one helped. He dashed a mattress out of the window. He was literally on fire and jumped.”
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:50 PM   #6
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Reaffirms my belief that all tall blocks like these should have an internal stairway that is reinforced against fire and would allow for an exit in these sort of emergencies regardless of how bad the fire was.

I hope that they can get as many people out as they can, but I fear the death toll will be terrible.
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:50 PM   #7
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That sucks, in this day and age, no sprinkler system, inadequate exits, shouldn't happen.
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:52 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Reaffirms my belief that all tall blocks like these should have an internal stairway that is reinforced against fire and would allow for an exit in these sort of emergencies regardless of how bad the fire was.

I hope that they can get as many people out as they can, but I fear the death toll will be terrible.

That isn't required by fire codes?

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Old 13th June 2017, 08:53 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
They're keeping track of it over here.

Absolutely horrible.

CCN and FOX reporting people trapped in the top floors.

I hope it isn't what I'm thinking.
You're hoping it's not Islamic terrorism?
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:53 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Looks like there may well be major casualties. The fire started at about 1 in the morning when many people will have been asleep.

I wonder if this will prove to be relevant:

http://www.frmjournal.com/news/news_...ns-review.html
Not that long ago, so I'd say, yeah, it might have made a difference.
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:55 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
You're hoping it's not Islamic terrorism?
Given recent events, the thought occurred to me.
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:58 PM   #12
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It seems likely to collapse.
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Old 13th June 2017, 08:59 PM   #13
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There is a live feed here, if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUenV46uyeY

I am surprised to see a fairly modern building burn like that.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It seems likely to collapse.
I saw someone saying "how much you want to bet it won't?" and they were a 9/11 truther.

If it does collapse, that will certainly be a blow against their points.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:06 PM   #15
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Eye witness on BBC News says he was there very early on - at the same time as the Fire Brigade arrived - went inside the building to rescue people, and he heard no fire alarms, and saw only seven people escape. He thinks that many, many people will have been trapped.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:08 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
That isn't required by fire codes?

Certainly supposed to, in fact multiple ones according to the codes, and a sprinkler system. That people are trapped and that the fire was able to take control of so much of the building so rapidly questions exactly how well these were implemented in this case.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:10 PM   #17
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It's burning completely to the core. Out of control with fire brigades having no meaningful effect. No chance for any survivors that didn't get out right away.

Over 100 apartments there.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

Over 100 apartments there.
120.

Last edited by Matthew Best; 13th June 2017 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:14 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
200.
And this would've started while everyone was in bed?
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:15 PM   #20
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Reports that large chunks of the building are falling away.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
And this would've started while everyone was in bed?
It's reported to have started between 1 and 2am.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
200.
Oh wow. There could be more than 100 dead.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:17 PM   #23
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If it doesn't collapse, does this lend any credence to 9/11 truthers, or not so much?
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If it doesn't collapse, does this lend any credence to 9/11 truthers, or not so much?
I think it's too unrelated to matter. It lacks jets and their fuel among other differences.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If it doesn't collapse, does this lend any credence to 9/11 truthers, or not so much?
Depends on its construction. If it's reinforce concrete, then no. If it's steel beam and post, also not very much. A lot of the collapse of the WTC was due to the construction technique. Other styles of construction might or might not fail under similar circumstances.
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Old 13th June 2017, 09:36 PM   #26
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Hopefully it isn't as bad in terms of loss of life as it looks.
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Old 13th June 2017, 10:02 PM   #27
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Some of the views in this live stream show a section of the building that was spared. Hopefully that included an escape stairwell.
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Old 13th June 2017, 10:04 PM   #28
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The link says this:
Quote:
It is managed by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO) on behalf of the council and had undergone a two-year, £10m refurbishment that was completed last year.
I would think that would mean it was fully up to the latest codes. It's hard to understand how this could happen.
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Old 13th June 2017, 10:09 PM   #29
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The leader of K&C Council says that "several hundred" people would have been in the building.

He also said that the building underwent an inspection at the time of its renovation last year.

No word on a possible cause for the fire, but terrorism has not yet been mentioned.
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Old 13th June 2017, 10:10 PM   #30
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Apparently this was waiting to happen:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpres...l-a-fire-risk/

Quote:
We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:
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Old 13th June 2017, 10:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Apparently this was waiting to happen:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpres...l-a-fire-risk/

With some four and a half years worth of fire risk warnings... looks like some of the property trustees might be looking for legal representation soon.

eta: From a wide aerial shot just now... it appears to be just one of five identical towers in that development.
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Apparently this was waiting to happen:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpres...l-a-fire-risk/
A post from November 2016.

Quote:
It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpres...ing-with-fire/
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:44 PM   #33
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The building underwent some major refurbishment in recent years. New cladding was added. From the pictures it looks like that cladding burned.

A new smoke ventilationl system was also added. The responsible company described it in a blog post almost exactly 1 year ago. Apparently it's already deleted. Nice to see the pros are on the job.
Here's the archived version:
http://web.archive.org/web/201706140...ation-project/
Doesn't sound like they planned for more than individual flat fires.

Residents were told to stay inside their flats in case of fire.
Quote:
The ‘stay put’ fire policy
The smoke detection systems have been upgraded and extended. The Fire Brigade has asked us to reinforce the message that, if there is a fire which is not inside your own home, you are generally safest to stay put in your home to begin with; the Fire Brigade will arrive very quickly if a fire is reported.
The only reason you should leave your home is if the fire is inside your home. In this case you and your family should leave the flat immediately: close your door behind you, leave the building and call the 999, giving your address and postcode.
If there is a fire in the block near your flat, and you believe you are at risk and would prefer to evacuate the building, then please do so using the stairs and wait outside the building for the Fire Brigade to arrive.
http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/100428...y_2016_vff.pdf
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The link says this:


I would think that would mean it was fully up to the latest codes. It's hard to understand how this could happen.
Watching BBC news there's talk of the renovation not yet being finished and the installation of gas pipes into the building.

The building it self looks like it's a late 60s/early 70s building and you'd imagine a number of the residents would have lived there since it was built so could well be a number of elderly residents which would make evacuation difficult even in the best of circumstances.
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:56 PM   #35
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Also watching the news some residents are saying it took the fire brigade a long time to get there. Could be just their perception given shock etc. but if response times were slow there will be a lot of fallout from it given the cuts to the service introduced by the previous Mayor and the concerns raised by the union at the time about response times being increased.
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:59 PM   #36
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Those pictures are truly frightening and I fear for all trapped inside that block. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the fire suppression systems were absent, fire exists inadequate and fire evacuation process outdated.

A fire breaking out at that time of day is also pretty much a worse case scenario.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:05 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The building underwent some major refurbishment in recent years. New cladding was added. From the pictures it looks like that cladding burned.

A new smoke ventilationl system was also added. The responsible company described it in a blog post almost exactly 1 year ago. Apparently it's already deleted. Nice to see the pros are on the job.
Here's the archived version:
http://web.archive.org/web/201706140...ation-project/
Doesn't sound like they planned for more than individual flat fires.

Residents were told to stay inside their flats in case of fire.

http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/100428...y_2016_vff.pdf
If you have to traverse 20 floors of a smoke-filled stairwell, you would not have made it anyway.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mid View Post
Also watching the news some residents are saying it took the fire brigade a long time to get there. Could be just their perception given shock etc. but if response times were slow there will be a lot of fallout from it given the cuts to the service introduced by the previous Mayor and the concerns raised by the union at the time about response times being increased.
Well response time was good, under 6 minutes apparently according to fire brigade update just reported
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The link says this:


I would think that would mean it was fully up to the latest codes. It's hard to understand how this could happen.
That may not mean much of the codes haven't been reviewed.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:03 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The building underwent some major refurbishment in recent years. New cladding was added. From the pictures it looks like that cladding burned.

A new smoke ventilationl system was also added. The responsible company described it in a blog post almost exactly 1 year ago. Apparently it's already deleted. Nice to see the pros are on the job.
Here's the archived version:
http://web.archive.org/web/201706140...ation-project/
Doesn't sound like they planned for more than individual flat fires.

Residents were told to stay inside their flats in case of fire.

http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/100428...y_2016_vff.pdf
Cheap cladding nearly produced the same fire here in Melbourne. It went up like fireworks. The "inflammable" standard seems to be very flexible.

Several pictures here of cheap flammable cladding.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1801571
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