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Old 16th June 2017, 01:49 PM   #361
quadraginta
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Quote:
Online version of what I read in the print edition yesterday:

Metro: Man whose flat started Grenfell blaze ‘packed luggage before raising alarm’

"The man whose flat caught fire first in Grenfell Tower packed a bag of clothes before raising the alarm, it was claimed.

His pregnant neighbour Maryam Adam, said that he knocked on her door to warn her about the fire at 12.50am.

At that point he had already prepared to leave the building by packing possessions into a holdall, she claimed.

The fire brigade was called at 12.54am and arrived within six minutes.

Maryam, 41, described how she could see the fire in the man’s kitchen through his open front door, saying it still appeared small at that time.

She was frightened enough to leave without any of her possessions, not even taking her phone."

There's a certain tone of accusation in this report that I find a bit disturbing.

Much like it is premature to indict the building refit before all the details are known, it is even more so to begin a demonization of this individual based on this one report.

The woman observing that he had a bag packed doesn't have any idea how much time, if any, he spent packing it. He could just as easily had a gym kit with changes of clothes that he kept ready for when he went out.

How much she could see and evaluate accurately looking through a door into a room is also a question. Half the kitchen could have been invested with fire, and not be the part she could see with a quick glimpse while busy trying to get out, in a state of near panic.

What we do know about the guy is that he took the time to try and warn other people instead of just bailing out to save himself.

I'm willing to leave it at that for the time being.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:03 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Those here (in Politics) castigating May for not meeting victims were only hoping that she would face the crowd's ire. There is no point inflaming things, in my view.

And yes, retro-fitting sprinklers would be a long, long job.

Just think, if the guy who's fridge caught fire had just picked up a fire extinguisher, things might have been very different.
But why didn't E.May show up right away with a fire extinguisher?
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:13 PM   #363
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So this was caused by a fridge having a short circuit and catching fire?

Shades of Mrs O Leary's cow.........
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:16 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Just think, if the guy who's fridge caught fire had just picked up a fire extinguisher, things might have been very different.
Yeah the residents definitively deserved to burn to death because some guys fridge (allegedly) caught fire and he wouldn't (or couldn't) put it out. This is the price of freedom.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:24 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Those here (in Politics) castigating May for not meeting victims were only hoping that she would face the crowd's ire. There is no point inflaming things, in my view.

And yes, retro-fitting sprinklers would be a long, long job.

Just think, if the guy who's fridge caught fire had just picked up a fire extinguisher, things might have been very different.
We have a one story house and we have 5 fire extinguishers. Yep, a little paranoid but better to have too many than not enough. Dunno about costs in the UK but they're not that expensive here. In a high rise, I'd have one in every room.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:24 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Those here (in Politics) castigating May for not meeting victims were only hoping that she would face the crowd's ire. There is no point inflaming things, in my view.

And yes, retro-fitting sprinklers would be a long, long job.

Just think, if the guy who's fridge caught fire had just picked up a fire extinguisher, things might have been very different.

Assuming he didn't pick up an extinguisher. Assuming he had an extinguisher.

Assuming he didn't try to extinguish it with whatever he might have had at hand.

The average fire extinguisher can only do so much. Even a 10lb. (about the largest one would expect to see in a residential application) ABC dry chemical extinguisher is generally only rated for about 4 square feet of active fire of normal combustibles under the best conditions, and will be fully discharged in under half a minute of continuous discharge.

If this guy was asleep and woke up because his fridge had 'blown up', then by the time he had himself together enough to figure out what was going on it may have been well past the point that even a decent sized extinguisher would do much to stop things.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:05 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yeah the residents definitively deserved to burn to death because some guys fridge (allegedly) caught fire and he wouldn't (or couldn't) put it out. This is the price of freedom.
What on earth is that responding to? Certainly not the line of mine that you quote.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:19 PM   #368
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I was wondering about the cladding and how it's fixed to the wall.

If there were a gap between its inner surface and the original concrete wall, and there were no firestops, would the cladding not then act as a chimney allowing a fire lower down to spread rapidly upward, even if the cladding itself is fire resistant?
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:37 PM   #369
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I didn't see this cited upthread but I apologize if it's a dup: London fire: Grenfell Tower cladding 'linked to other fires'
Quote:
The exterior cladding, added in 2015, had a polyethylene - or plastic - core instead of an even more fireproof alternative, BBC Newsnight understands.
High-rise buildings in France, the UAE and Australia that had similar cladding have all been hit by fires that spread.
The company involved denies awareness of a link.
Quote:
And Harley Facades, the company that fitted the panels to the building, said in a statement: "At this time, we are not aware of any link between the fire and the exterior cladding to the tower."

This article gets a bit CTish but I think the income divide in the neighborhood is an important issue.

How Rich Neighbors May Have Factored Into London's Deadly Tower Fire
Quote:
Part of the motivation for Grenfell’s renovation, planning documents suggest, was to make the tower look better to its neighbors. That document, obtained by The Independent, claims the addition of new aluminum cladding “will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.” It justified the choice of materials “to accord with the development plan by ensuring that the character and appearance of the area are preserved and living conditions of those living near the development suitably protected.” Those living nearby, of course, are some of the richest people in London. You’ll probably recognize the neighborhood just to the south of Grenfell Tower from the 90s Hugh Grant movie of the same name:
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:51 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
I was wondering about the cladding and how it's fixed to the wall.

If there were a gap between its inner surface and the original concrete wall, and there were no firestops, would the cladding not then act as a chimney allowing a fire lower down to spread rapidly upward, even if the cladding itself is fire resistant?

Yes. And if the cladding contained significantly flammable material as a core, even if the product, taken as a whole, was deemed "fire resistant" or "fire retardant" under normal circumstances by whatever local regulations were applicable, then that core material could contribute to the blaze if the installation procedures which the manufacturer specified were not correctly followed.

Architect has mentioned all of this in passing, as have I, in varying levels of detail. It is also addressed in the Parliamentary First Report on an early high-rise fire which specifically discussed issues with cladding.

It occurs to me that people unfamiliar with the various different construction techniques used to fasten such surfaces to building exteriors may not as easily visualize the conditions we are discussing.

For example. When you and I use the term "firestop" in relation to framing or furring systems we both know exactly and explicitly what is meant by that. People who don't understand the construction techniques being referred to probably won't. And may have any number of different, erroneous ideas as to what the term means.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:48 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the storming of this hall accomplished what,except make a few demonstrators feel like they had just stormed the Bastille or the Winter Palace?
Why isn't that a sufficient accomplishment in itself? Sometimes prisoners smear their feces all over their cell. It accomplishes nothing except the annoyance of the guards. But it signals someone who suffers from a profound sense of lack of control over their lives.

Storming city hall is all these people have left. We should have more compassion, than to try to take even that away from them.

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Old 16th June 2017, 10:17 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why isn't that a sufficient accomplishment in itself? Sometimes prisoners smear their feces all over their cell. It accomplishes nothing except the annoyance of the guards. But it signals someone who suffers from a profound sense of lack of control over their lives.

Storming city hall is all these people have left. We should have more compassion, than to try to take even that away from them.
I would hazard a guess that most of those doing the storming in this instance were not displaced residents or their relatives. They're all too busy picking up the pieces.

The protest last night in central London was similarly adorned with the banners of the usual gob***** suspects. The SWP must always have a poster printer on standby to capitalise on the latest outrage-by-proxy at a moment's notice.
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Old 16th June 2017, 10:34 PM   #373
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Do you think those grieving lost loved ones might have a reprieve, time to grieve? Let someone else carry the torch for at least a week or two?

Having lost a loved one abruptly, someone young who should not have died, I think a few weeks or months before I went marching for human rights was a reasonable expectation. How dare people accuse empathetic petitioners of having some self-serving agenda.
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Old 16th June 2017, 10:54 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Let someone else carry the torch for at least a week or two?
Oh, please. Storming the town hall and demanding "answers"/prosecutions/prison time less than three days after the event is utterly pointless. The actual victims are being massively supported, both by charity and local and national government. The latter has already pledged support that amounts to some £25k per resident, and that they will be rehoused locally ASAP. The protesters are doing nothing but demonstrating their own unreasonable impatience.

Quote:
How dare people accuse empathetic petitioners of having some self-serving agenda.
You obviously have no idea who the SWP are and what their MO is.
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Old 16th June 2017, 11:23 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
I was wondering about the cladding and how it's fixed to the wall.

If there were a gap between its inner surface and the original concrete wall, and there were no firestops, would the cladding not then act as a chimney allowing a fire lower down to spread rapidly upward, even if the cladding itself is fire resistant?
There is the critical phrase.
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Old 17th June 2017, 01:21 AM   #376
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As the inevitable contrite hand wringing about the Building Regulations goes on, spearheaded by the media pressure, someone in the regulatory system is going to have to explain why certain fire safety aspects of the regulatory regime seem out of step with those employed elsewhere and for so long.

Tragic accidents can happen for extraordinary or unforeseen reasons. That is hard to stop. The question is why people do not learn from and act upon them timeously.

I make this comment as a general observation based on things like single means of escape, rather than in anticipation of a particular cause of this incident.
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Old 17th June 2017, 01:26 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you think those grieving lost loved ones might have a reprieve, time to grieve? Let someone else carry the torch for at least a week or two?

Having lost a loved one abruptly, someone young who should not have died, I think a few weeks or months before I went marching for human rights was a reasonable expectation. How dare people accuse empathetic petitioners of having some self-serving agenda.
They are NOT "empathetic petitioners" - many of those those doing the storming of the town hall are "the usual suspects" attending protests, who will readily attach themselves to any cause. Look out for SWP placards.
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Old 17th June 2017, 01:32 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
As the inevitable contrite hand wringing about the Building Regulations goes on, spearheaded by the media pressure, someine in the regulatory system is going to have to explain why certain fire safety aspects of the regulatory regime seem out of step with those employed elsewhere and for so long.

Tragic accidents can happen for extraordinary or unforeseen reasons. That is hard to stop. The question is why people do not learn from and act upon them timeously.

I make this comment as a general observation based on things like single means of escape, rather than in anticipation of a particular cause of this incident.
Apparently there was meant to have been a review of the regulations this type of refit would have come under 10 years ago, but for whatever reasons it still hasn't happened. In this instance "better late than never" doesn't really cut the mustard.
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:47 AM   #379
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Protesters are demonstrating and blaming 'Tory cuts' for the fire. Perfectly understandable, but wrong. It has nothing to do with cuts, Tory or Labour or anything else, the fault lies with the practice of profiteering from social initiatives. These services need to be made non-profit and nationalised, otherwise spends on the client will always be minimised in favour of making grotesque profits for the directors and higher management. The money is there, the problem is it's being siphoned off for personal gain before it reaches those for whom its intended.
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:53 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Apparently there was meant to have been a review of the regulations this type of refit would have come under 10 years ago, but for whatever reasons it still hasn't happened. In this instance "better late than never" doesn't really cut the mustard.

The test will be if this spurs any prompt effective review and physical inspection of similar structures with that type of cladding to prevent future incidents.

Judging from the Parliamentary First Report linked to earlier, which was issued in 1999, it would seem that the prospects are not good.
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:33 AM   #381
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The Wikipedia Talk page has thrown up some evidence that dents the developing narrative a bit.
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:42 AM   #382
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I need some context, please.

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Old 17th June 2017, 03:56 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I need some context, please.
Not all the flats were social housing. A number will have been bought previously under the right-to-buy scheme, and were available for private rental. Much of the coverage has focussed on the social profile of the block and the surrounding estate in the context of the borough as a whole, but - as with most things - it's a bit more complex than that. My wife and I (both working in good jobs) certainly couldn't afford that rent, notwithstanding the fact that we're renting a much nicer three bedroom house in another part of London for considerably less.

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Old 17th June 2017, 04:15 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The Wikipedia Talk page has thrown up some evidence that dents the developing narrative a bit.

Is that link supposed to be going to the Wiki talk page for the fire?

It isn't.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:19 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Is that link supposed to be going to the Wiki talk page for the fire?

It isn't.
It goes to the evidence that was found.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:28 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It goes to the evidence that was found.

This is where the link sent me

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...-59885887.html

It's a website ad for a two bedroom apartment in Grenfell Tower. ("Removed by agent.", unsurprisingly.)

I'm not sure what that is supposed to be evidence of. That there were apartments there? That some of them were for rent? That they aren't right now?

Obviously I'm missing something. I'm not trying to be accusatory, I really don't understand what point was being made.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:38 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is where the link sent me

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...-59885887.html

It's a website ad for a two bedroom apartment in Grenfell Tower. ("Removed by agent.", unsurprisingly.)

I'm not sure what that is supposed to be evidence of. That there were apartments there? That some of them were for rent? That they aren't right now?

Obviously I'm missing something. I'm not trying to be accusatory, I really don't understand what point was being made.

Yeah, same here.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:48 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Yeah, same here.
See post 386. The narrative in the UK media is that the block is all social housing, when if fact some of the properties are in private ownership and availabe for rent at a pretty high price.
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:19 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is where the link sent me

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...-59885887.html

It's a website ad for a two bedroom apartment in Grenfell Tower. ("Removed by agent.", unsurprisingly.)

I'm not sure what that is supposed to be evidence of. That there were apartments there? That some of them were for rent? That they aren't right now?

Obviously I'm missing something. I'm not trying to be accusatory, I really don't understand what point was being made.
Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Yeah, same here.
Have you tried reading the thread? It was discussed immediately after the link was posted and immediately before you asked about it.
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:45 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you tried reading the thread? It was discussed immediately after the link was posted and immediately before you asked about it.

Have you got some kind of personal problem?

It was not perfectly transparent that the reference was to side discussions about class and economic issues in London. Once that was pointed out it was clear enough, and that, as far as I was concerned, was the end of it.

For me, the debate about the financial status of the tenants is incidental to the physical causes of the fire, and not of particular concern.

Perhaps that particular post could have been worded more informatively. It wasn't. So I asked. A simple and uncontroversial exchange.

There is no need for you to take the attitude you are taking. My question, and calebprime's were presented in a reasonable and civil manner, without any innuendo or deprecatory connotations.

Do you have some reason to think I haven't been reading the thread? Aside from your seeming eagerness to be snide and dismissive, that is?

If so, it would suggest that you yourself haven't been reading it very carefully.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:11 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What on earth is that responding to? Certainly not the line of mine that you quote.
I don't see how else you can explain your inexplicable focus upon the source of the fire and someones failure (for whatever reason) to put it out since clearly the problem is not that a fire started but rather that the apartment complex was, for one or more reasons, highly unsafe.

Modern high-rise buildings are not supposed to burn like this and because it clearly did burn extremely fast it's likely that it was because the building contractors and/or the property owner were highly negligent, if not outright indifferent, towards the safety of the residents.

When you build a large building like this which is going to have up to hundreds of people in it at the same-time (possibly continuously) you have to presume that there's going to be a fire somewhere at some point. The source of the fire isn't important rather it's how you are supposed to contain it until someone, likely fire-fighters, can make sure that it has stopped burning.

Focusing upon anything else is purely trying to shift the responsibilities for protecting the lives of the residents from the construction contractors and the property owners onto someone else.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:14 AM   #392
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One thing I've noticed is the fact that the authorities have been really tight lipped on how many people are suspected to have died. They should've gone out with that information very quickly and not beat around the bush.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:19 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
One thing I've noticed is the fact that the authorities have been really tight lipped on how many people are suspected to have died. They should've gone out with that information very quickly and not beat around the bush.
No they shouldn't. They should release the figure when they are sure of what they are releasing or as sure as they can be. Releasing an inaccurate figure doesn't help anyone.

From the sounds of it it will be a long time before any of the remains in the upper part can be identified and many apparently never will be identified so will probably be assumed to have been residents of a given flat.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:23 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
One thing I've noticed is the fact that the authorities have been really tight lipped on how many people are suspected to have died. They should've gone out with that information very quickly and not beat around the bush.

I can't say that they haven't gone out with the reliable information they have as quickly as is prudent.

The toll is around thirty dead right now (last I heard), but no one has tried to conceal the fact that it might be much higher.

I think they are letting out what they can confirm as quickly as they can. It would be irresponsible for anyone in a position of authority to start putting out guesses as to what night be determined as investigation continues.

It isn't like it was a house fire.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:38 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think they are letting out what they can confirm as quickly as they can. It would be irresponsible for anyone in a position of authority to start putting out guesses as to what night be determined as investigation continues.
Really have a hard time seeing how it would be "irresponsible" to publicly go out with how many people are accounted for, dead or alive, and how many of the residents and estimated occupants at the time are unaccounted for. All people who lived there and visited during and before the fire should of course go to the emergency services and report that they are alive.

Seriously in just about any disaster like this i would expect to know roughly how many people died within a couple of days at most.

They don't have to guess or "speculate" and instead should make a serious estimate based upon how many people lived in the apartment at the time of the fire and i presume the authorities can get that information.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:47 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Really have a hard time seeing how it would be "irresponsible" to publicly go out with how many people are accounted for, dead or alive, and how many of the residents and estimated occupants at the time are unaccounted for. All people who lived there and visited during and before the fire should of course go to the emergency services and report that they are alive.

Seriously in just about any disaster like this i would expect to know roughly how many people died within a couple of days at most.

They don't have to guess or "speculate" and instead should make a serious estimate based upon how many people lived in the apartment at the time of the fire and i presume the authorities can get that information.
And why would you expect this to be in the public domain prior to confirmation of identities and informing next of kin?
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:48 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Really have a hard time seeing how it would be "irresponsible" to publicly go out with how many people are accounted for, dead or alive, and how many of the residents and estimated occupants at the time are unaccounted for. All people who lived there and visited during and before the fire should of course go to the emergency services and report that they are alive.

Seriously in just about any disaster like this i would expect to know roughly how many people died within a couple of days at most.

They don't have to guess or "speculate" and instead should make a serious estimate based upon how many people lived in the apartment at the time of the fire and i presume the authorities can get that information.
The police won't speculate in case an over-estimate is used against them, somehow. The mainstream media won't for the same reason, and the fact they're the mainstream media. I recall that some days after the 2004 tsunami some sources were reporting 'up to 200' people dead, despite the coastlines of entire countries being wiped off the map. The final figure was over quarter of a million.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:51 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by David RP View Post
See post 386. The narrative in the UK media is that the block is all social housing, when if fact some of the properties are in private ownership and availabe for rent at a pretty high price.

That's not a particularly high rent for a London flat.
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Old 17th June 2017, 08:25 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Also bollocks.
I agree that council flats are now being offered for sale. That process might be more advanced in London than elsewhere. That might be an explanation for why the fire regulations were not enforced by any council warden, and why there were no fire alarms, that is apart from municipal corruption. We don't know for certain the exact time the fire started which might have been well advanced before the fire brigade were called. I know of at least one set of council flats outside of London which has an automated link to a fire station if a fire alarm goes off.

To my mind the same sort of problems exist with modern high rise hotels, which are supposed to have a fire certificate. This matter is discussed at this website:

http://www.ifsecglobal.com/hotel-fir...ty-the-current regulations

This is part of it:

Quote:
Hotel Fire Safety – the current regulations
[
Although the hospitality industry has sharpened up its fire safety act over the last 30 years, hotel fires still cause death and injury. Here, in conjunction with BRE, we review the current regulations.

People are particularly vulnerable to the effects of smoke and toxic fire gases when they are asleep. Those doing so in hotel bedrooms are especially at risk, as they are probably not very familiar with the premises and associated escape routes. They may be tired after travelling for many hours, they may be deeply asleep having gone to bed late after a heavy meal and/or having consumed alcohol – all of which might leave them in a disorientated state when first awakened by the sound of a fire alarm.

People’s vulnerability to fires in hotels was recognised in the UK after the Rose and Crown hotel fire in Saffron Walden in 1969, which resulted in 11 deaths. This led to hotels and boarding houses being the first premises to be designated as requiring a fire certificate under the Fire Precautions Act 1971.

Europe

The EC became involved in aspects of fire safety in hotels following a 1978 resolution of the European Parliament on fire safety regulation, after tragic hotel fires in Belgium and the Netherlands. In 1986, the Council unanimously adopted recommendation (86/666/EEC) on fire safety in existing hotels which defined minimum safety standards for all hotels in the community on the principle that people staying in hotels outside their country of origin are entitled to adequate protection, and to be informed of the extent of that protection. This became a resolution of European Parliament in May 1994.
The recommendation sets out a series of principles and requirements, on the basis of which member states are called upon to take the appropriate measures. The main objective is, in existing hotels, to reduce the risk of fire breaking out, prevent the spread of flames and smoke, ensure that the occupants can be evacuated safely, and enable the emergency services to take action.

Particular guidance for UK hotels was first published by the Home Office and the Scottish Office as The Fire Precautions Act 1971: Guide to fire precautions in premises used as hotels and boarding houses which require a fire certificate. This guide is still available and has been revised over the years. Although the current version was published in 1991, it has now been subsumed into more recent legislation. It has underpinned guidance on fire safety in hotels for many years and presents a holistic approach to fire safety in hotels of all ages which required a fire certificate, and focuses in particular on:
– fire resistance
– fire risk and associated life risk
– means of escape
– means for detecting and giving warning in case of fire
– fire fighting equipment
– fire instructions and drills

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 17th June 2017 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:55 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I agree that council flats are now being offered for sale. That process might be more advanced in London than elsewhere. That might be an explanation for why the fire regulations were not enforced by any council warden, and why there were no fire alarms, that is apart from municipal corruption. We don't know for certain the exact time the fire started which might have been well advanced before the fire brigade were called. I know of at least one set of council flats outside of London which has an automated link to a fire station if a fire alarm goes off.

To my mind the same sort of problems exist with modern high rise hotels, which are supposed to have a fire certificate. This matter is discussed at this website:

http://www.ifsecglobal.com/hotel-fir...ty-the-current regulations

This is part of it:
Still bollocks.

Right to Buy for council properties has been around for 30 years.

The tower was managed not by the local council, but as part of a tenant controlled organisation.

There is no evidence that fire precautions like smoke detectors and fire alarms were sub-standard.

IIRC the fire brigade was called when the fire was confined to a single room, and they arrived in 6 minutes.
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