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Old 14th June 2017, 11:27 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Given that this site is to encourage critical thinking, you might all wish to have a read of this before continuing to weigh in.

https://www.publications.parliament....9/10907.htm#a1
Maybe you could summarize you point.

I get it we jump to conclusions too readily. But we have a rapidly spreading fire, that is not in question.

You are annoyed, that seems evident.

How about listing the possibilities on your list?

It would help to have alternative hypotheses.
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Old 14th June 2017, 11:29 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Given that this site is to encourage critical thinking, you might all wish to have a read of this before continuing to weigh in.

https://www.publications.parliament....9/10907.htm#a1
That's all well and good. We still have multiple buildings clad in combustible cladding and approved by inspectors.
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Old 14th June 2017, 11:34 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post

I would urge you, and others, to damp down the speculation. They're only just starting to recover bodies from the fire. Nobody has looked at the cause of the fire, or how it was able to spread. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Public Enquiry into this disaster, taking years and costing millions. In the nicest possible way, uninformed comment on the internet such as we are seeing here, is premature, almost certainly wrong, and is pretty alarmist. You are part of a rather unseemly feeding frenzy which would no doubt upset those involved in the fire and will 100% certainly end up casting aspersions where they shouldn't be cast whilst likely missing the point.
Indeed.

There will, I suspect from other threads, be around five of us here with experience in the design and construction of multi storey structures, of whom two will have experience of the English Building Regulations. The former is complex area; it is not for nothing that qualification takes seven years of academic study and tall buildings design many more of practical experience.

There will need to be a highly detailed study into the cause of the fire and adequacy of the cladding system. I can envisage at least two, probably three, scenarios for the failure depending upon (for example) whether this was a ventilated rainscreen or a sealed system. Analysis will have to look a wide range of issues including extant construction, functional and regulatory requirements, specification, manufacturer's testing, and workmanship.

Speculation in the meantime is unlikely to be productive.
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Old 14th June 2017, 11:45 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
......
How about listing the possibilities on your list?

It would help to have alternative hypotheses.
I just deleted a paragraph because I mentioned one of them. The trap of speculation by the uninformed is the classic "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". I know what I would be looking at first. I know too that I wouldn't dream of speculating.
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Old 14th June 2017, 11:53 PM   #165
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For example, some sources link to Reynobond cladding panels and have worked their way through online technical brochures however for a public sector contract of this size n the EU it is very possible that the construction specification would not have been brand specific, indeed we don't even know the procurement route and whether cladding was a contractor design package.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:21 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I am afraid you are falling into the trap of commenting on stuff without full knowledge, and thereby muddying waters.

Deleted. Thought better of it.

I would urge you, and others, to damp down the speculation. They're only just starting to recover bodies from the fire. Nobody has looked at the cause of the fire, or how it was able to spread. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Public Enquiry into this disaster, taking years and costing millions. In the nicest possible way, uninformed comment on the internet such as we are seeing here, is premature, almost certainly wrong, and is pretty alarmist. You are part of a rather unseemly feeding frenzy which would no doubt upset those involved in the fire and will 100% certainly end up casting aspersions where they shouldn't be cast whilst likely missing the point.
Oh please. I am simply quoting the BBC. So you claim to be an expert and that we should accept your importance. However, you haven't told us why we should accept you are the expert on this subject, other than that you once worked for an architect. I take it you were not actually an architect.

I shall comment as I see fit.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:27 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Indeed.

There will, I suspect from other threads, be around five of us here with experience in the design and construction of multi storey structures, of whom two will have experience of the English Building Regulations. The former is complex area; it is not for nothing that qualification takes seven years of academic study and tall buildings design many more of practical experience.

There will need to be a highly detailed study into the cause of the fire and adequacy of the cladding system. I can envisage at least two, probably three, scenarios for the failure depending upon (for example) whether this was a ventilated rainscreen or a sealed system. Analysis will have to look a wide range of issues including extant construction, functional and regulatory requirements, specification, manufacturer's testing, and workmanship.

Speculation in the meantime is unlikely to be productive.

Absolute rubbish. You do not need 'six years training in architecture' to comment on the Grenfell Tower fire.

A SKY News reporter turned up at Rydon, the company responsible for the refurbishment to discover the CEO was in hiding and sent out his tea boy with a carefully prepared 'press statement'.

So, in the meantime, it is fair comment to speculate as to the reason the building caught fire so rapidly.

A couple of architects on BBC have given their views, so it is pure snobbish balderdash to say people are not allowed to repeat it without deferring to you first.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:28 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I just deleted a paragraph because I mentioned one of them. The trap of speculation by the uninformed is the classic "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". I know what I would be looking at first. I know too that I wouldn't dream of speculating.
Nonsense. You are claiming to be uniquely qualified to comment. Perhaps you can tell us all why.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:33 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Absolute rubbish. You do not need 'six years training in architecture' to comment on the Grenfell Tower fire.
Seven.

You don't need the training to comment, but you might need a little more knowledge than you have to comment intelligently, though.

Quote:
A SKY News reporter turned up at Rydon, the company responsible for the refurbishment to discover the CEO was in hiding and sent out his tea boy with a carefully prepared 'press statement'.
Not having anything to hide, and being harrassed by the press, are two very different things.

Quote:
So, in the meantime, it is fair comment to speculate as to the reason the building caught fire so rapidly.
Nothing you have said justifies this conclusion.

Comment away, but you haven't said anything yet which even begins to be credible, and with your level of knowledge, it never will.

Quote:
A couple of architects on BBC have given their views, so it is pure snobbish balderdash to say people are not allowed to repeat it without deferring to you first.
Please point to any claim of "not being allowed to comment without deferring to (Architect)". Actual quotes, please.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:34 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nonsense. You are claiming to be uniquely qualified to comment. Perhaps you can tell us all why.
He's an architect.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:35 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nonsense. You are claiming to be uniquely qualified to comment. Perhaps you can tell us all why.
Please quote where I claimed to be "uniquely qualified to comment". Actual quotes.

I am certainly far more qualified than you, being an architect, and having designed a number of high rise buildings. My qualifications and experience lead me to the conclusion that speculating at this point is wrong.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:36 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Seven.

You don't need the training to comment, but you might need a little more knowledge than you have to comment intelligently, though.


Quote:
Not having anything to hide, and being harrassed by the press, are two very different things.



Nothing you have said justifies this conclusion.

Comment away, but you haven't said anything yet which even begins to be credible, and with your level of knowledge, it never will.



Please point to any claim of "not being allowed to comment without deferring to (Architect)". Actual quotes, please.
Is your name, 'Architect'?

As I said in my original post I was quoting the claim of an architect (who was interviewed by BBC).

It is not appropriate for you to leap in accuse me of fanning the flames, as it were.

This forum is open to all, not just self-important architects.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:39 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Please quote where I claimed to be "uniquely qualified to comment". Actual quotes.

I am certainly far more qualified than you, being an architect, and having designed a number of high rise buildings. My qualifications and experience lead me to the conclusion that speculating at this point is wrong.
You are free to participate in this thread or not, as you wish. If you want to shut out the hoi-polloi, as it were, then why not open a thread specifically for architects?
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:42 AM   #174
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Having four experts on the forum in any specific subject is something we should appreciate, not dismiss. This is especially so in areas where the rest of us don't have the expertise. Unlike the BBC reports, we get to ask questions (even the stupid questions). Great resource, and without the burden of having to jump to conclusions.

Although... you know, it's going to be fun to blame the usual targets anyhow. Big industry/builders/landlords, government, Muslims.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:43 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is your name, 'Architect'?

As I said in my original post I was quoting the claim of an architect (who was interviewed by BBC).

It is not appropriate for you to leap in accuse me of fanning the flames, as it were.

This forum is open to all, not just self-important architects.
I note your lack of quotes with which to back up the various hyperbolic claims you made.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:46 AM   #176
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It's early days.

There's a hell of a lot of questions, and the only answers at the moment come from visuals. That's really not anywhere near enough information.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:47 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Having four experts on the forum in any specific subject is something we should appreciate, not dismiss. This is especially so in areas where the rest of us don't have the expertise. Unlike the BBC reports, we get to ask questions (even the stupid questions). Great resource, and without the burden of having to jump to conclusions.

Although... you know, it's going to be fun to blame the usual targets anyhow. Big industry/builders/landlords, government, Muslims.
I cannot see anybody has jumped to any conclusions.

Given the 'polystyrene lava' as described by a witness on the scene, it is fair comment for TV reporters to ask architects about the cladding. I don't see that it is appropriate to shut down discussion of the cladding, the stairwell and ventilation, just because one is not a 'seven years trained architect'.

If it is OK for the newspapers and tv channels to chatter about the incident, then AFAIAC it is OK for forum members to do the same.

Anyway, I'll leave this thread for the 'four expert architects'.

So bye now.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:47 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
.......why not open a thread specifically for architects?
Such a thing isn't possible on this forum, as I am sure you know. We are free, however, to communicate via PM.

Tell me, do you know the difference between an insulated cladding panel and a rainscreen? Do you know what was used on this building? Do you think knowing this would make any difference to you speculations about the spread of the fire?
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:48 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Such a thing isn't possible on this forum, as I am sure you know. We are free, however, to communicate via PM.

Tell me, do you know the difference between an insulated cladding panel and a rainscreen? Do you know what was used on this building? Do you think knowing this would make any difference to you speculations about the spread of the fire?
No, the floor's all yours.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:48 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
It's early days.

There's a hell of a lot of questions, and the only answers at the moment come from visuals. That's really not anywhere near enough information.
Exactly.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:49 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Absolute rubbish. You do not need 'six years training in architecture' to comment on the Grenfell Tower fire.

A SKY News reporter turned up at Rydon, the company responsible for the refurbishment to discover the CEO was in hiding and sent out his tea boy with a carefully prepared 'press statement'.

So, in the meantime, it is fair comment to speculate as to the reason the building caught fire so rapidly.

A couple of architects on BBC have given their views, so it is pure snobbish balderdash to say people are not allowed to repeat it without deferring to you first.
Well I have to say that it's the first time in a wee while, outside of the 911 boards, that I've seen someone so confidently talk from an acknowledged position of ignorance.

There are a number of posters here, including MikeG, who know the work I've done so I'm happy to engage with that ignorance here. Before doing so, and without googling, talk me through your specific issues with and understanding of:

1. The combustability and spread of flame requirements as set out in the English Building Regulations for tall buildings (i.e. those taller than 20 storeys).

2. The extent to which the tests set out in BS 476-7, generally forming the baseline assessment regime, might be appropriate for complex large scale cladding systems. You may wish to have regard to the implications of ADB 1992 and the role of LPC/LPS guidance.

3. The role of fire regulatory standards in assessing extant and proposed forms of constructions in order to ensure compliance with mandatory standards, and consequently the implications if no notices were served in this case.

4. The implications of the Consturction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015 inasmuch as they will have imposed duties on designers and clients over and above those arising from a normal English common law duty of care.

You may also wish to let me know your understanding of:

(i) The installation of cavity barriers/fire stops within overcallding systems or, where this is not undertaken because (for example) of the use of a ventilated cavity such other appropriate means of dealing with spread of flame on inbuilt surfaces.

(ii) The means by which such requirements are implemented and monitored on site in order to ensure, as far as is practicable, with madatory standards.

(iii) Identification of appropriate occupant fire management strategies within cellular robust construction including compartmentalisation.

(iv) Appropriate means for smoke venting within protected zones.

(v) The plausibility of suggestions that the protected zone and dwelling entrance doors were not, as a minimum, FD30 units.

In making these comments as a basis for what I expect to be a detailed technical discussion you should be aware that I trained in a different regulatory regime from the English system, one which has higher standards for combustability of overcladding together with a requirement for additional escape routes from buildings generally, and hence have no need to defend the English syste, (albeit that I have delivered buildings under it).

To be frank I don't think you have anything like a competent technical grasp of these complex issues and hence are simply not in a position to arbitrate between such "experts", real or otherwise (and a couple of real ones have appeared), who have been doing brief pieces on air without the benefit of any sort of technical investigations. Moreover I wonder about the extent to which you are aware which of the talking heads - and again there are several - have prior agendas which are already known within the sector.

Knock yourself out.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:51 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Exactly.
Er, you do know it can take up to six years for there to be a public inquiry?

So we must not comment on a highly topical incident until then, according to you.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:53 AM   #183
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Yes, I do. I appear at them on occasion.

I also sit on the professional practice committee of my professional body, who have an oversight and advisory role in the development of new building regulations.
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Old 15th June 2017, 01:55 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Yes, I do. I appear at them.
OK, as a humble bean counter, I'll slink off to my abacus and leave the current affairs discussion for the big boys.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:02 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
It's early days.

There's a hell of a lot of questions, and the only answers at the moment come from visuals. That's really not anywhere near enough information.
I couldn't agree more.

There are numerous potential things that could have caused this tragic building fabric failure and, in all likelihood, there are a number of factors which will have combined to create a problem.

One might recall the Summerland tragedy. I cannot speak for MikeG, but at my university the causes of and lessons learnt from this were covered in our undergraduate degree.

Let's look at what we don't know:

1. The cause of the fire.
2. How that fire spread to rapidly to cladding.
3. What type of cladding it was (beyond references in the planning drawings).
4. The means of installation.
5. Whether that cladding included measures to control the spread of flame in accordance with mandatory standards.
6. The means by which the fire effectively circumvented extant compartmentation within the property.
7. Full extent of protected zones within the property.

These qestions can only be answered through forensic analysis on-site and a thorough review of the production information and site records. That will take several months.

I do not believe that a public inquiry of this nature would take anything like 6 years and 2 seems more realistic (Summerland was just 18 months, as it happens). In the meantime the English and Welsh regulatory regimes will doubtless urgently review potential risks and consider the need for interim action.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:10 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I couldn't agree more.

There are numerous potential things that could have caused this tragic building fabric failure and, in all likelihood, there are a number of factors which will have combined to create a problem.

One might recall the Summerland tragedy. I cannot speak for MikeG, but at my university the causes of and lessons learnt from this were covered in our undergraduate degree.

Let's look at what we don't know:

1. The cause of the fire.
2. How that fire spread to rapidly to cladding.
3. What type of cladding it was (beyond references in the planning drawings).
4. The means of installation.
5. Whether that cladding included measures to control the spread of flame in accordance with mandatory standards.
6. The means by which the fire effectively circumvented extant compartmentation within the property.
7. Full extent of protected zones within the property.

These qestions can only be answered through forensic analysis on-site and a thorough review of the production information and site records. That will take several months.

I do not believe that a public inquiry of this nature would take anything like 6 years and 2 seems more realistic (Summerland was just 18 months, as it happens). In the meantime the English and Welsh regulatory regimes will doubltess urgently review potential risks and consider the need for interim action.

Likewise in the meantime idiots will no doubt speculate idly.
Nice to know your view of people.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:11 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I couldn't agree more.

There are numerous potential things that could have caused this tragic building fabric failure and, in all likelihood, there are a number of factors which will have combined to create a problem.

One might recall the Summerland tragedy. I cannot speak for MikeG, but at my university the causes of and lessons learnt from this were covered in our undergraduate degree.

Let's look at what we don't know:

1. The cause of the fire.
2. How that fire spread to rapidly to cladding.
3. What type of cladding it was (beyond references in the planning drawings).
4. The means of installation.
5. Whether that cladding included measures to control the spread of flame in accordance with mandatory standards.
6. The means by which the fire effectively circumvented extant compartmentation within the property.
7. Full extent of protected zones within the property.

These qestions can only be answered through forensic analysis on-site and a thorough review of the production information and site records. That will take several months.

I do not believe that a public inquiry of this nature would take anything like 6 years and 2 seems more realistic (Summerland was just 18 months, as it happens). In the meantime the English and Welsh regulatory regimes will doubtless urgently review potential risks and consider the need for interim action.
Self important nonsense. This is a forum, not a formal regulatory body, and you're a member, not an admin, so let's have fewer posts ordering people what and what not to discuss and calling them idiots.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:12 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not having anything to hide, and being harrassed by the press, are two very different things.
I would anticipate that all those who were involved in the commissioning, design, and construction of the project are in discussions with their insurers and will have considerable restrictions on what might be said.

It also seems likely that there will be prosecutions, which in turn will limit what people are able or willing to say.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:14 AM   #189
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Sneaky edit there Architect, but a little too late.


The internet was designed for us idiots to speculate widely on all sorts of things. We like to call it a discussion.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:24 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Phenomenally rare.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 15th June 2017 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:25 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Someone high up (I forget who) said the cladding was put on to make the building look more attractive to outsiders (cosmetic).
Yes, a common "solution" to brutalist architecture.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:26 AM   #192
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There are some council residential flats in my own area in which there is a LOUD fire alarm on every corridor, which is tested by regulation once a week by a council warden. The smoke alarms in every flat are tested regularly by some sort of inspector. The fire brigade have been called out a few times in the past, but this has been mostly false alarms and cooking fumes problems.

The trouble is that if you are on the 21st floor the fire brigade are not much help if there is smoke in the corridors due to an exploding fridge, or tumble dryer, or overheated TV set, or perhaps accidents with candles, or even arson. It's wrong advice to tell people that they will be rescued.

This is the official instructions on fire action in these council flats:

Quote:
If a fire breaks out in your home: leave the room where the fire is straight away and close the door. Get out of your flat immediately. Close the front door behind you. Do not try to put the fire out. If there is a 'break glass/ alarm call point in the outside corridor, break the glass on your way out. Call the Fire service (999) - they will be there in a few minutes. Wait outside away from the building at the assembly point.

If you see or hear of a fire (or alarm ringing) in another part of the building and you are in your own flat: stay in your flat. Call the fire service (999) Be ready to leave the building if the fire fighters come to your door and tell you to evacuate the building.

If you see or hear of a fire (or alarm ringing) in another part of the building and you are not in your flat: get out of the building immediately. Do not attempt to return to your flat, but go to the nearest fire exit and leave the building. Call the Fire Service - they will be there in a few minutes. Wait outside away from the building at the assembly point. Do not block the entrance lobby.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:49 AM   #193
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While we are waiting for more info, can you all comment on:
1) Was the building fire in Dubai related? (Cladding materials.)
2) If it was (or even if it wasn't) are there lessons to be learned from Dubai?

I'm thinking the Dubai inferno should have been written up in professional journals by now.
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:51 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Having four experts on the forum in any specific subject is something we should appreciate, not dismiss. This is especially so in areas where the rest of us don't have the expertise. Unlike the BBC reports, we get to ask questions (even the stupid questions). Great resource, and without the burden of having to jump to conclusions.
Quite. Even as a layperson I suspect that what really happened was a combination of a number of factors, some perhaps obvious, some not. A lot of people (not necessarily here) seems to flailing around, desperately wanting one person or organisation to unqiuely blame, but I don't think it's going to be that simple. I also suspect that if it eventually turns out to be something/s far less "blamey," a lot of people still won't accept it (cf. the New Cross Fire).
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Old 15th June 2017, 03:29 AM   #195
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Here is a report on what may have been one of the major reasons for adding the cladding to the building in the first place.

Quote:
Part of the motivation for Grenfell's renovation, planning documents suggest, was to make the tower look better to its neighbours. That document, obtained by The Independent, claims the addition of new aluminium cladding "will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area".
www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/how-rich-neighbours-may-have-factored-into-londons-deadly-tower-fire/ar-BBCGWCw?li=AAgfIYZ

All I have to say is that esthetics should never take priority over safety.
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Old 15th June 2017, 03:44 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Here is a report on what may have been one of the major reasons for adding the cladding to the building in the first place.

www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/how-rich-neighbours-may-have-factored-into-londons-deadly-tower-fire/ar-BBCGWCw?li=AAgfIYZ

All I have to say is that esthetics should never take priority over safety.
To be fair, we don't know that they did.
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Old 15th June 2017, 03:49 AM   #197
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Old 15th June 2017, 03:50 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Here is a report on what may have been one of the major reasons for adding the cladding to the building in the first place.
Quote:
Part of the motivation for Grenfell's renovation, planning documents suggest, was to make the tower look better to its neighbours. That document, obtained by The Independent, claims the addition of new aluminium cladding "will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area".
www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/how-rich-neighbours-may-have-factored-into-londons-deadly-tower-fire/ar-BBCGWCw?li=AAgfIYZ

All I have to say is that esthetics should never take priority over safety.
The problem with that argument is that the cladding is not unique to that building in that location. Many social high-rises - both in London and elsewhere - have been clad, even those in the crappiest of areas. They wouldn't have spent ten million quid just because nearby well-off private residents were complaining about the eyesore.
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Old 15th June 2017, 03:52 AM   #199
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Some infos, including visual, about the cladding.

A Buzzfeed article: "Grenfell Tower Investigation To Look At Role Of Cladding As Eyewitness Describes Building "Going Up Like A Match"

People at BBC found that "cladding on the building *was* Reynobond cladding with a polyethylene core –less fireproof of 2 Reynobond products."

Video of similar cladding material fire on a tower in France:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 15th June 2017, 03:53 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The company who handled the renovation, Rydon, quickly put out a statement strongly confirming it was fully compliant.

<snip>

Sure. But compliant with what.

That is only a test of the efficacy of the regulations which are used to define compliance. And doesn't even begin to adress enforcement. They can claim "fully compliant" all they want, but until it is clear that they were compliant with regulations which had actual teeth in them and that they really were compliant (easy to say in a press release), I'll reserve judgement.

Insulated core panels come in a wide variety of materials, manufacturers, and applications. The core material can range from so fireproof that you can burn a hole in one of the panels with a cutting torch and not ignite it, to foams that light up with characteristics not dissimilar to napalm, and equally easy to get started burning.

When Australian authorities started investigating the factors involved in the Lacrosse Tower fire in Melborne, here's one of the results;
Quote:
The tower was found to have been fuelled by the use of the non-compliant plastic-core aluminum cladding – a substance so flammable that the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) had to abandon fire testing for fear of destroying their equipment.
Without knowing the specific product used for the Grenfell renovation it is premature to make any claims.

Having said that, when I watched the footage of the tower going up it certainly appeared to me that the cladding was a significant element in the spread of the blaze.

It should be emphasized that this has absolutely no relevance to the "compliance" of the product. That is a function of the regulatory system applying to the specific location of the building.

If there was nothing in the relevant building and fire codes which precluded the use of a panel insulated with napalm precursors then the panels would be, by definition, "compliant".

The Parliamentary "First Report" of the 1999 fire in Irvine, Ayrshire which was linked to upthread had comments specifically addressing this issue. It may be that they were not used as a basis for further regulation. They should have been.


Also, as Architect has pointed out, even panels which are compliant with a minimally acceptable level of fire resistance still need to be installed properly for that resistance to have any meaning at all. Something as simple as a furring system used to mount the panels which creates a cavity behind them, and then failing to install a firestop at prescribed intervals to impede the spread of flames should some panels catch fire would be enough to make any actual materials compliance meaningless.

This could be a result of an installation which is not in compliance with the manufacturer's recommended practices, or a building/fire code which does not address that issue in that particular application (although the linked report I just mentioned certainly does), or simply slack inspection procedures.

We'll learn more about all of the potential factors in this fire, and which had the greatest impacts as investigation continues.

I will view with particular interest the analysis of the cladding.

These types of product have been installed on many of the large commercial buildings I have worked on over the decades. I am quite familiar with them, their installation procedures, availability of different products, potential flammability issues, and methods to address those issues.

Not an architect, though. Just a guy who was a construction superintendent on a lot of big buildings.
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