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Tags James Hodgkinson , shooting incidents , Steve Scalise

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Old 14th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #361
eeyore1954
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's common to take such comments about high officials seriously enough to take a closer look, as far as I know.

That's if it is brought to their attention.
There are far too many hateful posts online to expect people like this to be investigated.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:57 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Consider that 20 House Republicans voted against the AHCA - "primarily moderates," according to the Washington Post.

This might have been for show though. Sometimes a voting bloc will allow some members leeway due to their constituencies as long as they're sure the measure will pass anyway.
Less than 10% of them. The party as a whole is total trash.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:57 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're the poster making the assertion that other people don't care - I've yet to see a post asserting that the lives lost through inadequate access to healthcare don't matter.

Since 1986 there has been a federal law, The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act Act:
It doesn't mean they get the treatment they need, it only requires emergency treatment not the kind of long term care they need. So what you have is expensive care for them having a stroke but not the blood pressure medication they needed to prevent the lethal stroke. Better than nothing but still leaving many medical conditions as death sentences if you do not have insurance.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:59 PM   #364
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If Republicans are so damn concerned about the supposed need for "civility" in politics and the potential destructive consequences of a highly polarized, partisan political environment then why the hell are they still Republicans?

Trump's whole campaign and presidency has revolved around highly personal, emotional and divisive politics. He has regularly attacked his political opponents personally even to the point of threatening to imprison his main competitor. Just recently his son described his fathers opponents as not even "being people" to him.

If Republicans want to "civilize" politics and make it less divisive, vicious and potentially violent then they must take a stand against Trump's behavior both past and present. Pleading for tolerance and what have you while ignoring the elephant in room is completely and utterly disingenuous. If they don't then there's blood on their hands, even if it's their own. You reap what you sow, ********.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:00 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It's not so much about a number of individuals but the actual organization and principles behind the movement along with the precipitating factors. It's not a cut and dried situation. However, I think we can all most of us agree that some guy with vague grievances against the government who just takes it upon himself to murder politicians would not be a legitimate use of violence to effect political change.
So this attack would be acceptable if they had gotten through their health care bills and it killed someone he cared for. Then as an act of revenge it would be OK.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:00 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
It's an factual observation. As when I recognize your arguments as mere parroting of the media you consume. Word for word in many cases. It takes no sophistication to type out a comment you just overheard on the TV or radio.
Interesting, like minded people saying the same thing, imagine that. And somehow it isn't sophisticated to the sophisticated, got it.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:02 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I live in Arizona. You cannot claim the giffords shooting was political. That poor man was truly insane. We often misuse that phrase to describe attackers as short hand for perverted values. That was not this situation. He truly lost the ability to distinguish right from wrong.
I didn't say he did because of politics, I said he was a leftist. That he was insane doesn't change anything, many leftist are.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:02 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Interesting, like minded people saying the same thing, imagine that. And somehow it isn't sophisticated to the sophisticated, got it.
You were asked to provide a list of examples for "the left" behaving as you said that they behaved. Have you compiled it yet?
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:02 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I don't believe their motivations are "kill the poor" it is "let's cut taxes for the rich, and who cares if poor people die". Evidenced by the fact that they are trying to pay for tax cuts for the rich buy cutting services that lots of poor people need to live.
They do seem to be good about lying to themselves about the death toll their actions will have. They convinced Ranb for one that there would not be high death tolls.

They do know, because if they really didn't they wouldn't be hiding from the public so much on this.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:04 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of the negative things about the Internet is that you can make outrageous and inflammatory statements with any real consquences. No stares of disapproval that if you made them in person might make you think twice.
Or you could get standing ovations and continuous applause for the remarks via the internet.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:06 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The WAPO has shut down it's comments section on this story....I shudder about what those posts were like.
And of course, the shooter has handed Trump and the GOP the first victory they have had in a long time.
Wow! Somehow this is a victory!
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:08 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I should not be shocked by the number of people who are de facto justifying the shootings, but I am. I really expected better on this site.
Like handing Trump some sort of victory?
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:09 PM   #373
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David Bailey and Krystal Griner, the two Capitol Police officers assigned to protect Scalise, were shot and wounded. Condition unknown.

now back to your thread for spittle soaked screeds about human trash and Obamacare...
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:11 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I didn't say he did because of politics, I said he was a leftist. That he was insane doesn't change anything, many leftist are.
He wasn't really a leftist, nor was his politics a defining aspect of him or his interest in shooting Giffords.

Also, what you just said is the very sort of mislabeling insanity that sets back our handling of the issue.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:12 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He wasn't really a leftist, nor was his politics a defining aspect of him or his interest in shooting Giffords.

Also, what you just said is the very sort of mislabeling insanity that sets back our handling of the issue.
Well said.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:14 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
So, anything the liberals can push through when they have power turns into something which makes the conservatives pure evil if they attempt to roll it back when they gain power again?

What if the motivation is (at least in part) a concern for sustainability, market forces, costs, etc. and not just "muhahaha, let's kill the poor!" ?
The advantage we have on this issue is we know their claims are purposely not consistent with their policy proposals and they are engaged in purposeful evasion on the issue.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:17 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The advantage we have on this issue is we know their claims are purposely not consistent with their policy proposals and they are engaged in purposeful evasion on the issue.
They are literally trying to change how 1/6 of the economy works without even having hearings about it. The reason is very obvious: because they know for a fact that hearings would hurt their case.

Human trash.

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Old 14th June 2017, 01:21 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If Republicans are so damn concerned about the supposed need for "civility" in politics and the potential destructive consequences of a highly polarized, partisan political environment then why the hell are still Republicans?

Trump's whole campaign and presidency has revolved around highly personal, emotional and divisive politics. He has regularly attacked his political opponents personally even to the point of threatening to imprison his main competitor. Just recently his son described his fathers opponents as not even "being people" to him.

If Republicans want to "civilize" politics and make it less divisive, vicious and potentially violent then they must take a stand against Trump's behavior both past and present. Pleading for tolerance and what have you while ignoring the elephant in room is completely and utterly disingenuous. If not then blood is on their hands, even if it's their own. You reap what you sow, ********.
Lol, more justifying!
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:21 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Rand Paul was pretty clear: the right to bear arms is meant to give the citizenry the means to fight a tyrannical government.
In which he's wrong. It's meant to be an alternative defense policy to having a standing army, which at the time many regarded as a tool of tyranny. (Some still do, of course.) This was all thrashed out thoroughly at the time.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:22 PM   #380
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@GabbyGiffords

My heart is with my former colleagues, their families & staff, and the US Capitol Police- public servants and heroes today and every day.

nice
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:24 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol, more justifying!
"You reap what you sow" is only justification if you imply it justifies the consequences. Saying there are consequences to actions while at the same time using the same response to the actions regardless of cause is not justification.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:25 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
In which he's wrong. It's meant to be an alternative defense policy to having a standing army, which at the time many regarded as a tool of tyranny. (Some still do, of course.) This was all thrashed out thoroughly at the time.
That might not be compatible with an insistence on it being an individual right.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:29 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He wasn't really a leftist,
Lol
Wasn't really? Got it.

Quote:
nor was his politics a defining aspect of him or his interest in shooting Giffords.
And please tell us what it was, as I never said his politics defined it.


Quote:
Also, what you just said is the very sort of mislabeling insanity that sets back our handling of the issue.
Lol
How would you like to handle the issue? You certainly don't want to recognize the politics of these shooters. The left rails against this so much, they always try to ask first, was this a tea party person? They always rail against violence and it is their side always committing the violence. You're simply in denial Bob.

And to the other Repubs on here. I wonder if the responses here are showing you what you're up against. Liberalism is as close to a religion to leftists as you can get. You're not ever going to compromise with these people, they need to continue to be defeated and you better be prepared for what they're going to do.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:31 PM   #384
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:32 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of the negative things about the Internet is that you can make outrageous and inflammatory statements with any real consquences.
At one time that was restricted to newspaper columnists, then came radio (much lower capital barriers to entry there) and TV, now this. It's called "democracisation" : dreadful, isn't it? Sounds great in principle, of course, but so many dreadful things do.

Quote:
No stares of disapproval that if you made them in person might make you think twice.
Or perhaps worse if you made them in a bar.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:34 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
How would you like to handle the issue?
I would like to reserve the term insane when discussing crime and insanity defense to incapable of distinguishing right from wrong.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:37 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That might not be compatible with an insistence on it being an individual right.
A selective militia is another tool of tyranny. In this context, of course (taking account of the times), "bear arms" is equivalent to "serve", not some reference to pikes and muskets.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:38 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
The left rails against this so much, they always try to ask first, was this a tea party person? They always rail against violence and it is their side always committing the violence.
This from the guy who advocated the murder of a group of people in a thread in which he was defending the assault of those persons by a republican.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:38 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The shooter had cruel and violent parents. He was circumcised.
Not going to ask how you knew that!
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:42 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
A selective militia is another tool of tyranny. In this context, of course (taking account of the times), "bear arms" is equivalent to "serve", not some reference to pikes and muskets.
That would mean individuals can possess guns but don't actually have Anni individual right to them. If it is only there to prevent tyranny, and the issue of a selective militia is resolved through other methods, then there wouldn't be grounds for individual ownership.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:42 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I should not be shocked by the number of people who are de facto justifying the shootings, but I am. I really expected better on this site.
Agreed.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:45 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of the negative things about the Internet is that you can make outrageous and inflammatory statements with any real consquences. No stares of disapproval that if you made them in person might make you think twice.
Sounds ideal for actual philosophical debate. Argument must stand on its logic rather than rely on cultural reprobation.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:46 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Agreed.
This assumes it isnt justified. That should be up for debate.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:50 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If Republicans are so damn concerned about the supposed need for "civility" in politics and the potential destructive consequences of a highly polarized, partisan political environment then why the hell are they still Republicans?
It's fascinating to see all the efforts to basically blame the victims of a shooting for their own shooting.

I wish I could say I'm surprised by the hatred, the basic lack of human compassion, but I'm not. This is exactly what I expected.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:52 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I should not be shocked by the number of people who are de facto justifying the shootings, but I am. I really expected better on this site.
I haven't expected better from this site for several years now. If you have, you've been in denial.

This is not an anomaly. This is people revealing their true selves. Never forget it.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:57 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I haven't expected better from this site for several years now. If you have, you've been in denial.

This is not an anomaly. This is people revealing their true selves. Never forget it.
Let's take Tony's or arcade22's position. What about that position is not adequately skeptical? What better application of skepticism do you expect?
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:57 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
To further posit that this act of attempted murder is what the Founders had in mind when they drafted the 2nd Amendment (or what modern day 2nd Amendment supporters think) strains the limits of my imagination.
Well not this act, since it happened 250 years later. But to use asymmetrical tactics to kill someone they saw as a tyrant - why is that such a reach? They foresaw a justifiable need to kill some people, obviously.

Wondering where he kept his weapons if he was living out of a gym bag. The mayor must be exaggerating that he could see all of the guy's possessions. Having recently moved, I see definite advantages to living out of a gym bag.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:00 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yeah but if you don't have insurance and get cancer or something hospitals do not have to treat you.

Also your area is one of the most liberal in America.
And other than my support of the whole of the Bill of Rights. I fit right in.

My point is that in many areas an at-risk individual has access to emergency medical help before the ACA and they will still have that access in the future.

The premise that people are simply going to die off in quantity because the repubs want to end or modify the ACA is incorrect.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:01 PM   #399
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Jennifer Rubin has some interesting thoughts on the reaction to the shootings:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.7ec4db615d2f

I think her advice on what to avoid over the next couple of days is probably wise.
The WAPO itself basically shut down discussion of the topic on their website:I hate to think what kind of cesspool forced them to do that.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:02 PM   #400
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That would mean individuals can possess guns but don't actually have Anni individual right to them. If it is only there to prevent tyranny, and the issue of a selective militia is resolved through other methods, then there wouldn't be grounds for individual ownership.
The militia is raised to defend the national territory, not to prevent tyranny (that, traditionally, is handled in the Senate). The issue of a selective militia is dealt with by the Second Amendment, which has nothing to do with individual ownership of weapons.
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