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Tags James Hodgkinson , shooting incidents , Steve Scalise , violent rhetoric

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Old 14th June 2017, 12:01 PM   #321
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, it's not 1750 anymore. The world isn't what it used to be.

I have no problem with violence being met by violence.
So as long as the deaths are not violent you can't do anything about them. And of course violent deaths are also ok as long as they are done by the right figures. That is why violence to celebrate football is OK and not a big deal, but any minor rioting by outrage over something political like killing innocent people by the police is not OK.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:03 PM   #322
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Looks like pretty clear-cut domestic terrorism. Is this the first time since Giffords that someone's actually fired rounds at Congressmen?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:03 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So as long as the deaths are not violent you can't do anything about them. And of course violent deaths are also ok as long as they are done by the right figures. That is why violence to celebrate football is OK and not a big deal, but any minor rioting by outrage over something political like killing innocent people by the police is not OK.
Okay, but I think you are in for a frustrating life.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:03 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Scalise is in critical condition.

Happy news for some.
I don't wish him ill. I am just seeing that we are in the sort of situation that many people find political violence acceptable. I know you wouldn't resort to violence to defend your life but many people do find that OK.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:04 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We did that once in this country, and it was the worst bloodbath in US history. It was called the Civil War. I don't want to repeat it.
You can't always get what you want.

This shooting is just the beginning. Expect reprisals from rightists, then more from leftists, martial law and finally all-out civil war. It's inevitable!
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:05 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Okay, but I think you are in for a frustrating life.
They are clear they don't care about the american people, if they did they wouldn't try to prevent analysis of their bills and run away from their constituents who want to know why they have to die. Not that you care about those people dying either. Their deaths are nothing worth getting worked up about.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:05 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Exactly it is a two way street. So I will care about the lives of Republican scum as much as they do about the people they are supposed to serve.
So much for taking the high road then.

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Old 14th June 2017, 12:06 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Happy news for some.
Who?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:09 PM   #329
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Did the Revolutionary War begin when some pissed off rebel colonists ambushed a bunch of helpless British politicians?

Did the Civil War start when some Confederates attempted to assassinate Union politicians?

To characterize this deranged gunman as some kind of revolutionary rebel against the tyranny of the evil Republicans is just about as stupid as I can imagine. To further posit that this act of attempted murder is what the Founders had in mind when they drafted the 2nd Amendment (or what modern day 2nd Amendment supporters think) strains the limits of my imagination.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:09 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So much for taking the high road then.

Ranb
Just ask Rand Paul about it

"More
.@Judgenap: Why do we have a Second Amendment? It's not to shoot deer. It's to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!"

https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/746022114042478592

Trying to kill many americans against the popular will would seem to be a great definition of tyrannical.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:10 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So much for taking the high road then.
Yes, this is what it has come to. We tried the high road, and got 'Trumped'. Now the only option left is to fight fire with fire.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:11 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Did the Revolutionary War begin when some pissed off rebel colonists ambushed a bunch of helpless British politicians?

Did the Civil War start when some Confederates attempted to assassinate Union politicians?

To characterize this deranged gunman as some kind of revolutionary rebel against the tyranny of the evil Republicans is just about as stupid as I can imagine. To further posit that this act of attempted murder is what the Founders had in mind when they drafted the 2nd Amendment (or what modern day 2nd Amendment supporters think) strains the limits of my imagination.
Yet our elected representative clearly view the second amendment in this way. See Rand Paul on that. And today he got a first hand view of what he advocates.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:13 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just ask Rand Paul about it
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Yes, this is what it has come to. We tried the high road, and got 'Trumped'.
My comment was directed at people on the forum, not non-members or people most of us have never met.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:14 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, you don't know that. You hope and assume that. But it very well may not be true.



He won't.
Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
No they are my enemies. Enemies to the entire country in fact. Much more dangerous than ISIS.

Far more Americans will die if Republicans pass their evil healthcare bill than have ever died due to terrorism. And Republicans in Congress are totally cool with that because it means rich people will get tax cuts.

**** them, they can burn in hell for all I care (not that I believe in hell).

You called it, Ziggurat!
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:19 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You called it, Ziggurat!
It wasn't especially prophetic. I have posted here for over two years now about how much I hate Republican trash. Why would I stop now.

I will stop hating those vile pieces of **** when they become a normal center-right party. So probably never.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 14th June 2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:22 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Did the Civil War start when some Confederates attempted to assassinate Union politicians?
Nope. It started when the South attempted to secede so they could continue to abuse their slaves. Today the divide between leftist and rightists is almost as great as it was then. Some states are already openly rebelling against our Republican president, and it will only get worse.

You may scoff, but this is just the beginning. Once the bloodshed starts in earnest there will be no stopping it.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:22 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yet our elected representative clearly view the second amendment in this way. See Rand Paul on that. And today he got a first hand view of what he advocates.
Rand Paul was pretty clear: the right to bear arms is meant to give the citizenry the means to fight a tyrannical government. That's not what happened here. What happened here is some crazy guy tried to murder helpless people playing baseball.

One nutter =/= revolution.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:24 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
It wasn't especially prophetic...
Yes, I know. I always like to give the people the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'm naive.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:24 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You may scoff, but this is just the beginning. Once the bloodshed starts in earnest there will be no stopping it.
I think I will have to join xjx388 in scoffing.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:25 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Nope. It started when the South attempted to secede so they could continue to abuse their slaves. Today the divide between leftist and rightists is almost as great as it was then. Some states are already openly rebelling against our Republican president, and it will only get worse.

You may scoff, but this is just the beginning. Once the bloodshed starts in earnest there will be no stopping it.
A State deciding to cut it's emissions despite the country leaving the Paris Agreement = A State leaving the Union so that it can keep slaves?

That seems . . . a bit off.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:26 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, I know. I always like to give the people the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'm naive.
Yes you're naive if you think I will stop hating those vile scumbags. Well unless, like I said they become a normal center-right party instead of a scumbag extremist one. But we both know that isn't happening anytime soon.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:27 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yes you're naive if you think I will stop hating those vile scumbags. Well unless, like I said they become a normal center-right party instead of a crazed far right one.
Do you hate everyone who doesn't think like you do? That seems a pretty crappy way of living but to each their own.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:27 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Nope. It started when the South attempted to secede so they could continue to abuse their slaves. Today the divide between leftist and rightists is almost as great as it was then. Some states are already openly rebelling against our Republican president, and it will only get worse.

You may scoff, but this is just the beginning. Once the bloodshed starts in earnest there will be no stopping it.
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think I will have to join xjx388 in scoffing.
Me too. Is RR being serious here?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:28 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Do you hate everyone who doesn't think like you do? That seems a pretty crappy way of living but to each their own.
I just said that I wouldn't hate Republicans if they were a normal center right party.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:29 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Happy news for some.
Oh yeah, who?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:29 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Even if true so what? We can see how do end one pretty easily, making a mistake proof system is rather more difficult.

We know that about 15K a year used to die from lack of access to health care. But they don't matter I guess because of reasons.
You're the poster making the assertion that other people don't care - I've yet to see a post asserting that the lives lost through inadequate access to healthcare don't matter.

Since 1986 there has been a federal law, The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act Act:

https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-...irect=/EMTALA/

"Congress enacted the Emergency Medical Treatment & Labor Act (EMTALA) to ensure public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay. Section 1867 of the Social Security Act imposes specific obligations on Medicare-participating hospitals that offer emergency services to provide a medical screening examination (MSE) when a request is made for examination or treatment for an emergency medical condition (EMC), including active labor, regardless of an individual's ability to pay. Hospitals are then required to provide stabilizing treatment for patients with EMCs. If a hospital is unable to stabilize a patient within its capability, or if the patient requests, an appropriate transfer should be implemented."

What this means in practical terms is that an individual - even an uninsured individual - is entitled to medical treatment in an emergency situation or if they are in labor.

It is not a guarantee that the treatment is free. It is a guarantee that an in-need patient will not be turned away from a public hospital.

In my area, there are medical services available at no or low cost:

https://itn.ucsf.edu/sites/itn.ucsf....cs_LowCost.pdf

Even before the ACA, S.F. budgeted 123 million for the treatment of the uninsured in 2008.

http://www.communitycatalyst.org/doc..._sept_2008.pdf

Total cost for the program, 20 million:

"Estimated cost

To provide health care services to 82,000 uninsured San Francisco residents, HSF is expected to cost nearly $200 million for the first year. This projection is based on the reimbursement rate of Mixed Medi-Cal / Medicare Rate in 2006 (Monthly Rate: $201.25 per person; Annual Rate:
$2,415 per person)"
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:31 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Rand Paul was pretty clear: the right to bear arms is meant to give the citizenry the means to fight a tyrannical government. That's not what happened here. What happened here is some crazy guy tried to murder helpless people playing baseball.

One nutter =/= revolution.
How many individuals attacking a tyrannical government does it take to make them legitimate?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:32 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're the poster making the assertion that other people don't care - I've yet to see a post asserting that the lives lost through inadequate access to healthcare don't matter.

Since 1986 there has been a federal law, The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act Act:

https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-...irect=/EMTALA/

"Congress enacted the Emergency Medical Treatment & Labor Act (EMTALA) to ensure public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay. Section 1867 of the Social Security Act imposes specific obligations on Medicare-participating hospitals that offer emergency services to provide a medical screening examination (MSE) when a request is made for examination or treatment for an emergency medical condition (EMC), including active labor, regardless of an individual's ability to pay. Hospitals are then required to provide stabilizing treatment for patients with EMCs. If a hospital is unable to stabilize a patient within its capability, or if the patient requests, an appropriate transfer should be implemented."

What this means in practical terms is that an individual - even an uninsured individual - is entitled to medical treatment in an emergency situation or if they are in labor.

It is not a guarantee that the treatment is free. It is a guarantee that an in-need patient will not be turned away from a public hospital.

In my area, there are medical services available at no or low cost:

https://itn.ucsf.edu/sites/itn.ucsf....cs_LowCost.pdf

Even before the ACA, S.F. budgeted 123 million for the treatment of the uninsured in 2008.

http://www.communitycatalyst.org/doc..._sept_2008.pdf

Total cost for the program, 20 million:

"Estimated cost

To provide health care services to 82,000 uninsured San Francisco residents, HSF is expected to cost nearly $200 million for the first year. This projection is based on the reimbursement rate of Mixed Medi-Cal / Medicare Rate in 2006 (Monthly Rate: $201.25 per person; Annual Rate:
$2,415 per person)"
Yeah but if you don't have insurance and get cancer or something hospitals do not have to treat you.

Also your area is one of the most liberal in America.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 14th June 2017 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:32 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Me too. Is RR being serious here?
Problem is at times it is hard to tell between somebody being serious and somebody trolling.
And there a lot of "disaster porn" going around today.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:33 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Do you hate everyone who doesn't think like you do? That seems a pretty crappy way of living but to each their own.
Are their actions killing other people? Seems a much more reasonable reason to hate someone that because he is kissing his boyfriend in public. Or she is trying to use a bathroom.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:36 PM   #351
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This took place in Virginia. Why were none of the GOP congressmen or their staff members armed?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:39 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Did the Revolutionary War begin when some pissed off rebel colonists ambushed a bunch of helpless British politicians?

Did the Civil War start when some Confederates attempted to assassinate Union politicians?

To characterize this deranged gunman as some kind of revolutionary rebel against the tyranny of the evil Republicans is just about as stupid as I can imagine. To further posit that this act of attempted murder is what the Founders had in mind when they drafted the 2nd Amendment (or what modern day 2nd Amendment supporters think) strains the limits of my imagination.

The fascinating thing about the start of the violent stage of the American revolution...at Lexington...is that both the British Troops and the Minutemen was under orders to AVOID shooting. The British command were not stupid,and they knew that shooting would just inflame the situation. The Minutemen seem to have just wanted to make a sort of armed statement of opposition and then withdrawing without acutally attacking the British troops. Almost all the research show that the first shot probably came from off the green after the minutemen were dispersing ..probably by a panicked minuteman.
The 1988 film "April Morning" with Tommy Lee Jones is very accurate in it;'s depiction at what happened.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:39 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How many individuals attacking a tyrannical government does it take to make them legitimate?
It's not so much about a number of individuals but the actual organization and principles behind the movement along with the precipitating factors. It's not a cut and dried situation. However, I think we can all most of us agree that some guy with vague grievances against the government who just takes it upon himself to murder politicians would not be a legitimate use of violence to effect political change.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:45 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He is from Illinois. How did he find out that Republican Congressmen were having a baseball practice? How does he know what's going on other than seeing guys doing baseball practice things? Is this practice event publicly announced and so he travelled to kill during a practice?
If they worked for a living they wouldn't be having baseball practice on a Wednesday morning. [/cynical misanthrope]
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:45 PM   #355
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Was every society in history - where universal, single-payer health care was not provided - actively seeking to kill their entire populace?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:46 PM   #356
Tony Stark
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Was every society in history - where universal, single-payer health care was not provided - actively seeking to kill their entire populace?
Has any society actively tried to reduce the number of people who are covered like Republican human trash are trying to do?
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:49 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Has any society actively tried to reduce the number of people who are covered like Republican human trash are trying to do?
So, anything the liberals can push through when they have power turns into something which makes the conservatives pure evil if they attempt to roll it back when they gain power again?

What if the motivation is (at least in part) a concern for sustainability, market forces, costs, etc. and not just "muhahaha, let's kill the poor!" ?
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"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." - Thomas Jefferson
Reality is going to force you to become me.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:54 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Republicans in Congress are total scum. Proof: they are trying to take away healthcare away from tens of millions of Americans, killing many of them, so they can give tax cuts to rich people.
Consider that 20 House Republicans voted against the AHCA - "primarily moderates," according to the Washington Post.

This might have been for show though. Sometimes a voting bloc will allow some members leeway due to their constituencies as long as they're sure the measure will pass anyway.

Last edited by Minoosh; 14th June 2017 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:54 PM   #359
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One of the negative things about the Internet is that you can make outrageous and inflammatory statements with any real consquences. No stares of disapproval that if you made them in person might make you think twice.
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Old 14th June 2017, 12:55 PM   #360
Tony Stark
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
So, anything the liberals can push through when they have power turns into something which makes the conservatives pure evil if they attempt to roll it back when they gain power again?

What if the motivation is (at least in part) a concern for sustainability, market forces, costs, etc. and not just "muhahaha, let's kill the poor!" ?
I don't believe their motivations are "kill the poor" it is "let's cut taxes for the rich, and who cares if poor people die". Evidenced by the fact that they are trying to pay for tax cuts for the rich by cutting services that lots of poor people need to live.

Hell, I can understand them trying to change the individual market. But what is their excuse for cutting Medicaid expansion? Besides that they want to give that money to rich people? Why are they trying to do this in total secret without any hearings or making text public?

Last edited by Tony Stark; 14th June 2017 at 01:07 PM.
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