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Old 16th June 2017, 11:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
They were like two ships not passing in the night.
They haven't had any problems with stolen strawberries?
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't help wondering how the hell that happened. My guess is that captain's military career is over.

Me too.

Judging from the pics of the two vessels, the destroyer
got T-boned by a container ship in open water.

That's gonna need a lot of 'splainin'. I don't see how there could possibly be enough.
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's water, not sulfuric acid. While there's a chance that they're deceased, swimmers are pulled out of the water after marine casualties all the time. Again... this ain't seven hundred miles offshore in a raging typhoon. It's Tokyo Bay. Not a backyard pond, but also not the Straits of Magellan.
Depends on water temp. Doesnt have to be real cold to succumb to hyperthermia. Might be better than 26C at the moment, which is fairly favourable.

An interesting table that relates temp to survivability:
http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_...es/hypothermia
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:40 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Depends on water temp. Doesnt have to be real cold to succumb to hyperthermia. Might be better than 26C at the moment, which is fairly favourable.

An interesting table that relates temp to survivability:
http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_...es/hypothermia
I wasn't thinking of hyperthermia, to be honest. Tokyo Bay in the summer is not very cold. 26C is a tepid bath and compares favorably to the current water temp in Florida. For comparison, the water temperature off Coney Island and the Rockaways is about 18.5 and being a Saturday there will probably be about seven thousand people in the water today. (Here? Fahgeddaboutit... it's 30C.)

It may be moot. They haven't said they're not looking in the water, but have said that now the ship is back at the local naval base they will look for the seven missing. That doesn't sound too good. Sounds like they were sailors working in the area that was struck.
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:07 AM   #45
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CNN: "The collision affected Fitzgerald's forward starboard side above and below the water line, causing significant damage and associated flooding to two berthing spaces, a machinery space, and the radio room," according to a statement from US 7th Fleet.

CNN also mentioned that there may have been sailors on deck as watch or at leisure.
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:55 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
CNN: "The collision affected Fitzgerald's forward starboard side above and below the water line, causing significant damage and associated flooding to two berthing spaces, a machinery space, and the radio room," according to a statement from US 7th Fleet.

CNN also mentioned that there may have been sailors on deck as watch or at leisure.

Looking at the pictures of the two vessels more closely it appears that the Fitzgerald impact, forward starboard as you mention, was crumpled toward the aft, and the damage to the Crystal, such as it was, was confined to the port bow.

It's almost like the Fitzgerald tried to steam across the path of the Crystal with too little room to spare.

I hope not.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:05 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Looking at the pictures of the two vessels more closely it appears that the Fitzgerald impact, forward starboard as you mention, was crumpled toward the aft, and the damage to the Crystal, such as it was, was confined to the port bow.

It's almost like the Fitzgerald tried to steam across the path of the Crystal with too little room to spare.

I hope not.
That's how it looks like.

But, there has been no word what led to the collision, so far. None. Just that there was a collision, and what damage occurred. There's a whole lot of story that's missing.

We'll have to wait and see.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:10 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by CNN
The force of the impact could have thrown overboard sailors who were standing on the opposite side of the destroyer from where it was struck, he said. That could account for the missing sailors, who may have been on deck on watch or even just relaxing in the night air, he said.

Sailors also could have been trapped in compartments below deck, Schuster said, pointing out that container ships have a bulbous bow below the water line, which may have plowed into the US warship.
Large bulbous bow beneath the waterline. All that massive underwater damage to the Fitzgerald is invisible in the photos.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Me too.

Judging from the pics of the two vessels, the destroyer
got T-boned by a container ship in open water.

That's gonna need a lot of 'splainin'. I don't see how there could possibly be enough.
Yeah, but I thought those ships have the most advanced radar available. Was everyone asleep on the watch? I can't help but believe that some violation of protocol had to have happened for this to occur.
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:38 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Large bulbous bow beneath the waterline. All that massive underwater damage to the Fitzgerald is invisible in the photos.
Yeah, some of them are rather pointy (not sharp, but tapered to a near-point). They extend to almost exactly the front point of the prow, so the damage you see on the container deck level of the "Crystal" should indicate almost exactly what would've been hit below the water line by the "bulbous bow" (that's its actual name in spite of the best efforts of saner people who tried to promote "bow bulb").
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Old 17th June 2017, 08:30 AM   #51
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I'm imagining this as being a sort of Alphonse-Gaston routine gone wrong. Ships approaching more or less head on, both deciding which way to dodge, and getting it wrong. Kind of like the sinking of the Andrea Doria many years ago.
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Old 17th June 2017, 08:55 AM   #52
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When I was in the Navy, the ship I was on collided with another ship during an underway replenishment. And during an earlier cruise, the ship collided with a large merchant oil tanker in the Straits of Malacca.

Unfortunately, when large ships operate close together, then things can get quite problematic very quickly.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm imagining this as being a sort of Alphonse-Gaston routine gone wrong. Ships approaching more or less head on, both deciding which way to dodge, and getting it wrong. Kind of like the sinking of the Andrea Doria many years ago.

I'm having trouble imagining it at all. At least as far as it happening to begin with.

Container ships don't dodge. When you want to turn one of those things you start thinking about in the last time zone. She would have been (compared to a destroyer) plodding along on the least complicated course possible.

There's no way that the Fitzgerald didn't know where the Crystal was. With the equipment they've got they can see a sardine fart in a typhoon. I can't figure out what they were ever doing that close to her in the first place.

If I'm reading the damage correctly it looks like the Fitzgerald tried to pass in front of the Crystal at an angle, and was closer than they thought. But it doesn't make sense that they miscalculated by that much. It isn't like kid drivers trying to beat a train at the tracks. (At least, I hope not.) There wouldn't be any reason to need to cut it that close. If they needed to get by they could have crossed her course to her stern. It isn't like they'd lose that much time.

Gonna have to wait. There's gotta be more to the story.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:04 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There's no way that the Fitzgerald didn't know where the Crystal was. With the equipment they've got they can see a sardine fart in a typhoon. I can't figure out what they were ever doing that close to her in the first place.
Cover and concealment?
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:23 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Gonna have to wait. There's gotta be more to the story.
But will it be made public and when?

Has there been any public explanation for the collision of vessels last month involving the USS Lake Champlain?
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yeah, but I thought those ships have the most advanced radar available.

They have the most advanced everything when it comes to detection.

It's what they do. What that kind of ship is designed for. They're supposed to be able to spot and take out anything that swims floats, flies, or falls from outer space. Before it gets close enough to do any damage to whatever they are protecting.

Quote:
Was everyone asleep on the watch? I can't help but believe that some violation of protocol had to have happened for this to occur.

I'm trying not to believe it. My entire family is Navy. Generations worth. One of my grandfathers was an Academy graduate who saw combat in WWI and skippered a light cruiser in the Pacific all through WWII. My other grandfather was a Navy doctor who also served in both wars. My dad was on a destroyer off of Korea during the Korean War. His brother was a Marine who hit the beach at Iwo Jima as an enlisted, got his degree and commission after that war ended, and retired a bird Colonel after three tours in Vietnam. He picked up a Navy Cross along the way, in Korea. I've got cousins in the Navy and the Coast Guard.

I really want there to be a perfectly reasonable explanation for the incident. I wish I could think of one.
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:57 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But will it be made public and when?

Has there been any public explanation for the collision of vessels last month involving the USS Lake Champlain?

That was a small commercial fishing boat. 65 ft. Apparently it didn't have any radio and didn't hear loudspeaker warnings. The Lake Champlain is a guided missile cruiser. They're pretty nimble, as 10,000 ton ships go, but not nimble enough to dodge small boats.

They couldn't get the fishing boat's attention to get it to turn away, and there wasn't any way they could change course enough to matter.

I suppose they could have shot the little boat out of the water, but that might have been impolitic.
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Old 17th June 2017, 10:05 AM   #58
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Does your summary come from a web article that explains what happened?
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Old 17th June 2017, 10:06 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Does your summary come from a web article that explains what happened?

https://news.usni.org/2017/05/09/cruiser
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Old 17th June 2017, 10:21 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That's written on the same day as the collision and doesn't explain why Lake Champlain couldn't get out of the way of Nam Yang.
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Old 17th June 2017, 12:25 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, there have been sensors for avoiding collisions like this for along time. They are called "Human Eyeball Mark One".
When you are manuevring something as big as a destroyer, no amount of sensors will help if Human Error happens. And that is what happened, though exactly whose error remains to be seen.
But, guaranteed, the career of the Commander on Watch is probably over. Even if it not his fault for to have happned on his watch (where do you think that expression came from) it will be a black mark on his career, and for accidents like this the Navy is very unforgiving.
The reasoning will be even if it was primarily the Freighter's fault, the Officer in charge on the Fitzgerald should have been able to still avoid the collision by maneuvering and failed to do so. That would be a big black mark on his record, even if unofficial.
I agree that his career is probably over.

It seems to me (as a total layman) that they should have both been aware of each other miles before they collided. Maybe they were and just made the wrong course adjustments. A destroyer can maneuver fairly well. Maybe someone was drunk.
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Old 17th June 2017, 12:58 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That was a small commercial fishing boat. 65 ft. Apparently it didn't have any radio and didn't hear loudspeaker warnings. The Lake Champlain is a guided missile cruiser. They're pretty nimble, as 10,000 ton ships go, but not nimble enough to dodge small boats.

They couldn't get the fishing boat's attention to get it to turn away, and there wasn't any way they could change course enough to matter.

I suppose they could have shot the little boat out of the water, but that might have been impolitic.
What's wrong with flares, tracers or a star shell?
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:58 PM   #63
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I heard on the radio that the cargo ship turned unexpectedly. Haven't seen any confirmation.
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It may be moot. They haven't said they're not looking in the water, but have said that now the ship is back at the local naval base they will look for the seven missing. That doesn't sound too good. Sounds like they were sailors working in the area that was struck.
As far as I know some or all of the missing sailors might be trapped in flooded compartments in the ship.

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Old 17th June 2017, 03:46 PM   #65
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A constant relative bearing is an easy thing to watch for. Example, if the tanker was 5 deg off the port bow ten minute ago, and now it is still 5 deg, collision is imminent. The look outs have little compass like tables to aid that.

And shipping lanes are marked on maps, like highways. Southbound one side, northbound the other, with a center island hundreds of yard wide.

Some of those huge ships only have a crew of single digits. And auto pilots runing things.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:42 PM   #66
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This BBC report suggests the tanker made some unusual manoeuvres in the run-up to the collision. Whether that was the tanker taking evasive action or not, who knows?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40314128

For once, President Trump wrote a classy tweet:

Quote:
"Thoughts and prayers with the sailors of USS Fitzgerald and their families. Thank you to our Japanese allies for their assistance."
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:58 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's written on the same day as the collision and doesn't explain why Lake Champlain couldn't get out of the way of Nam Yang.

It didn't have time?

Note this line from that article;
Quote:
Visibility was limited during the time of the collision, the defense official said.
The fishing boat didn't see the Lake Champlain in time. And by the time the Lake Champlain realized that they weren't going to be able to change course enough to matter.

That incident doesn't seem particularly complicated to me.

The Fitzgerald collision is a little more so.

It is perfectly reasonable to accept that the Lake Champlain didn't have enough time to maneuver out of the way. Even if there was enough room to.

When the other vessel is a 30,000 ton cargo ship it would also be reasonable to expect that the Fitzgerald would take greater precautions much earlier. It isn't like they wouldn't have noticed her.

I've been on small boats in confined situations with large cargo vessels nearby.

Check out the inlet to Bogue Sound going into Morehead City in NC on a map. It serves a wood chip loading facility (among other things) and has regular freighter traffic in a channel that is only barely big enough for them, with shoals and islands on both sides.

I've spent a lot of time going through that inlet on small boats. Even in my Hobie Cat, with no engine noise to cover anything, it is scary how quickly and quietly those ships can sneak up on you. Even on a clear day.

You have to stay aware every minute. They can't dodge you.

And by law sailboats have the right of way over powered craft, but good sense has to apply as well. Like the epitaph goes;
Here lies John O'Day
who died defending his Right-of-Way.
His right was clear.
His will was strong.

But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:01 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
CNN: "The collision affected Fitzgerald's forward starboard side above and below the water line, causing significant damage and associated flooding to two berthing spaces, a machinery space, and the radio room," according to a statement from US 7th Fleet.

CNN also mentioned that there may have been sailors on deck as watch or at leisure.
On ANY large ship, Navy or Civilian, there are a couple of sailors on deck standing watch at all times while you are underway. It's SOP.
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:07 PM   #69
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I suspect we will be hearing a lot of discussion about "the Rules Of the Road" over the next few days.
"The Rules of the Road" are basically the universal Traffic rules for ships while underway. They are used on everything from the high seas to small lakes.
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:36 PM   #70
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Bodies found in the flooded compartments.

Two news reports conflict if it's all the missing men or just most of them but I'm sure we'll know soon.

U.S. Navy says bodies of 7 missing sailors found on ship after crash off Japan

Some missing sailors found dead inside Navy destroyer that collided with container ship

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Old 17th June 2017, 07:37 PM   #71
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Checked on line, and US Navy SOP require Six Sailors to be on deck at all times while Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer is underway.
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:41 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
We'll do that when you learn to use the correct system or measurements.
I use metric and inch measurements interchangeably, so don't bust my agates.
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bodies found in the flooded compartments.

Two news reports conflict if it's all the missing men or just most of them but I'm sure we'll know soon.

U.S. Navy says bodies of 7 missing sailors found on ship after crash off Japan

Some missing sailors found dead inside Navy destroyer that collided with container ship
I'm sure they knew exactly where to look for each of the missing men. And knew from a quick count that they were NOT look outs that fell overboard.

I've heard of collisions before where the Captain was immediately helicoptered off- to retirement? Perhaps to minimize time available to cook up an alibi? Was this an actual med-evac, or is that just a story?
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Old 17th June 2017, 07:53 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'm sure they knew exactly where to look for each of the missing men. And knew from a quick count that they were NOT look outs that fell overboard.

I've heard of collisions before where the Captain was immediately helicoptered off- to retirement? Perhaps to minimize time available to cook up an alibi? Was this an actual med-evac, or is that just a story?
My first thought on that was, maybe the guy had a heart attack on the bridge. It is a potential explanation.
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Old 17th June 2017, 08:17 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'm sure they knew exactly where to look for each of the missing men. And knew from a quick count that they were NOT look outs that fell overboard.

I've heard of collisions before where the Captain was immediately helicoptered off- to retirement? Perhaps to minimize time available to cook up an alibi? Was this an actual med-evac, or is that just a story?

Were those military vessels?

It isn't that hard to keep the press away from a U.S. war ship and her crew. I don't think the Navy would bother to do that, and the Navy skippers I know would have fought against leaving tooth and nail. They'd need to be badly hurt before they'd ever let someone rush them off their command.

You don't get to be the captain of one of those without having proven you take the job personally.
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:04 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm imagining this as being a sort of Alphonse-Gaston routine gone wrong. Ships approaching more or less head on, both deciding which way to dodge, and getting it wrong. Kind of like the sinking of the Andrea Doria many years ago.
Head-on? Both running towards each other? Playing chicken?

If that were the case, both ships would suffer damage on the same side. Didn't happen here: The destroyer suffered damage on the starboard side, the container ship on the port bow. What must have happened is that both were more or less on a parallel course (destroyer on the left of the container), and the destroyer tried to slip across the container's course in front of her. The question is why to do that. Seems far away from a standard maneuver.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:20 AM   #77
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Somebody just didn't see somebody in the dark, or more likely, forgot they were there?


There is no bow wake from those ships with the bulbous nose. Interesting phenomenon, when up close you can see a 10" thick sheet of water flowing over the bulb. Looks like it's dipped in glass. And I don't think they have side marker lights like your Chevrolet.

I wonder if the destroyer was playing some kind of game, like hiding in the freighter's radar shadow? They are constantly "training"... maybe practicing an un-rep move? Now they get to practice some "Honors and Ceremonies".
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Last edited by casebro; 18th June 2017 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:27 AM   #78
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Vessel trackers are now showing that the container ship made a big U-Turn, heading back to where it came from, before the collision. No indication from the owners as to why.

ETA: Regarding the Captain, there's a report this morning that he was in his cabin, which was damaged by the collision. His career MAY be safe, but whoever was in charge of the bridge is probably still in deep doo-doo.
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Last edited by Trebuchet; 18th June 2017 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:38 AM   #79
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Right of way be damned. If an Arleigh Burke can't keep track of a giant freighter, how can it keep track of the Chinese diesel electric attack subs that are its natural enemy?

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Old 18th June 2017, 07:38 AM   #80
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Map of the course of the cargo ship shown here. It looks goofy.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40317341
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