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Old 18th June 2017, 07:44 AM   #81
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by CNN
Aucoin said the cabin of the Fitzgerald's captain, Cmdr. Bryce Benson, was completely destroyed. "He's lucky to be alive," he added.

Benson was flown off the crippled ship by helicopter after the accident and was being treated at the naval hospital at Yokosuka, according to Aucoin, as were two other sailors who were medevaced.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/17/us/mis...und/index.html
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Old 18th June 2017, 12:14 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Vessel trackers are now showing that the container ship made a big U-Turn, heading back to where it came from, before the collision. No indication from the owners as to why.

ETA: Regarding the Captain, there's a report this morning that he was in his cabin, which was damaged by the collision. His career MAY be safe, but whoever was in charge of the bridge is probably still in deep doo-doo.
Yeah, the Officer on Deck is toast. It happened on his Watch...(and where do you think that expression came from?)
And The Captain is far from safe. Navy doctrine holds...and this is drummed into Naval Officers at Annapolis and in Naval OCS....that a Captain is responsible for everything that happens on board his ship, whether he is on duty or not. If one his officers messed up, the Captain bears blame because he should have spotted a potential problem or weakness and corrected it. It is a pretty ruthless doctrine, and probably unfair,but it has served the Navy well in keeping down complancency in it's officers.
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Old 18th June 2017, 12:17 PM   #83
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Looks as if somebody miscalculated when making a turn...probably the most common error in navigation leading to accidents,. from the Titanic on.
Sophtiscated Gizmos can feed a officer a ton of information, but in the end ship handling in response to the info is a human call...and often Human Eyeball Mark One is a major factor in deciding what to do. A slight error can result in disaster.
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Old 18th June 2017, 01:14 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, the Officer on Deck is toast. It happened on his Watch...(and where do you think that expression came from?)
And The Captain is far from safe. Navy doctrine holds... It is a pretty ruthless doctrine, and probably unfair,but it has served the Navy well in keeping down complancency in it's officers.
Entirely accurate from what I've seen/heard while in the USN.
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Old 18th June 2017, 01:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Map of the course of the cargo ship shown here. It looks goofy.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40317341
A container ship does nothing abruptly. Looking at the scale on that map, this u-turn was almost 10 miles long. I think it's likely he was holding on his slot to enter the harbor (and pick-up a pilot).

I'm sure the investigation will shed light on this.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:41 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
They have the most advanced everything when it comes to detection.

It's what they do. What that kind of ship is designed for. They're supposed to be able to spot and take out anything that swims floats, flies, or falls from outer space. Before it gets close enough to do any damage to whatever they are protecting.




I'm trying not to believe it. My entire family is Navy. Generations worth. One of my grandfathers was an Academy graduate who saw combat in WWI and skippered a light cruiser in the Pacific all through WWII. My other grandfather was a Navy doctor who also served in both wars. My dad was on a destroyer off of Korea during the Korean War. His brother was a Marine who hit the beach at Iwo Jima as an enlisted, got his degree and commission after that war ended, and retired a bird Colonel after three tours in Vietnam. He picked up a Navy Cross along the way, in Korea. I've got cousins in the Navy and the Coast Guard.

I really want there to be a perfectly reasonable explanation for the incident. I wish I could think of one.
The Social Events section has a separate thread on the Fitzgerald collision.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:47 PM   #87
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In the end, radar and other sensors only provide date to the officer in charge of the Bridge. In close traffic with other ships, it is his skill as basic ship handling and seamanship that the deciding factor. All the fancy gizmos do is provide him data.
Somebody,either on the Fitagerald, or the Freigther, is guilty of poor judgement in his ship handling.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:49 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Entirely accurate from what I've seen/heard while in the USN.
Pretty much the same in The US Army, and the US Air Force as well.
IN the Army, a Company Commander is responsible for everything that happens in his company, and if one of his platoon officers messes up, the doctrine is he should have spotted that weakness and made corrections.
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Old 18th June 2017, 08:50 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
Head-on? Both running towards each other? Playing chicken?

If that were the case, both ships would suffer damage on the same side. Didn't happen here: The destroyer suffered damage on the starboard side, the container ship on the port bow. What must have happened is that both were more or less on a parallel course (destroyer on the left of the container), and the destroyer tried to slip across the container's course in front of her. The question is why to do that. Seems far away from a standard maneuver.
And well illegal. COLREGS are clear

Quote:
15. Crossing situations
When two power-driven vessels are crossing, the vessel which has the other on the starboard side must give way and avoid crossing ahead of her
If you get dinged on your starboard side, you were in the wrong place.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:47 AM   #90
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The reports of the outrageous course corrections by the ACX Crystal are repeated at numerous sites, but a couple that I've seen were by rank amateurs who were looking at UTC time positions, not local time.

I'd wait until someone official says something about the ship making wild course changes. Lots of speculation. If the time stamps are off by 9 hours (UT vs Japan time), the maneuvers would've been the Crystal reversing course to go back to the Fitzgerald after the collision.

> One right wing site has it figured out. Philippine Flag. Must be Philippine Captain.
A: Not necessarily and actually rather unlikely. It's under long term charter to NYK, a Japanese container carrier. No sites have the master's details, so it'll have to come from the news if it comes.

> Auto-Pilot malfunction. No. The auto-pilot will not reverse direction and certainly not do so several times. Get serious! It would've disengaged with very loud warning alarms. That was a manual maneuver.

> Couldn't see the Crystal in the dark? If so, there was zero visibility (no such data in any report) or they just weren't looking for her. All marine vessels have running lights.

I'd wait for clarification of the wild course changes. Could be amateurs misinterpreting data; could be real. It's been repeated on legit news sites (d.b.a. "Fake News" in Trump World), but no one in any authority in Japan or the US has commented. Internet sleuths are about 50/50 on these sorts of topics, aren't they? (Well other than the 433:1 wrong guess ratio on the Malaysian Airlines flight.)
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:45 AM   #91
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They have radar. It works fine even in the dark.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
They have radar. It works fine even in the dark.
Yeah, (duuuh)... I left out the most obvious. The ACX Crystal certainly isn't a stealth ship. And the Fitzgerald, by its definition/purpose is surely equipped with the best radar money can buy. (The Crystal would have a pretty decent system, too.)
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:14 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
They have radar. It works fine even in the dark.
Yes, and this radar will tell you if you are going to crash into another ship long before you do.

Same for the Lake Champlain.

In fact, it will tell you if you are even going to come close to each other.

The Navy ships really should have avoided the civilian ships, no matter what.
Even if they were on suicide runs and trying to ram...
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:51 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The reports of the outrageous course corrections by the ACX Crystal are repeated at numerous sites, but a couple that I've seen were by rank amateurs who were looking at UTC time positions, not local time.

I'd wait until someone official says something about the ship making wild course changes. Lots of speculation. If the time stamps are off by 9 hours (UT vs Japan time), the maneuvers would've been the Crystal reversing course to go back to the Fitzgerald after the collision.

> One right wing site has it figured out. Philippine Flag. Must be Philippine Captain.
A: Not necessarily and actually rather unlikely. It's under long term charter to NYK, a Japanese container carrier. No sites have the master's details, so it'll have to come from the news if it comes.

> Auto-Pilot malfunction. No. The auto-pilot will not reverse direction and certainly not do so several times. Get serious! It would've disengaged with very loud warning alarms. That was a manual maneuver.

> Couldn't see the Crystal in the dark? If so, there was zero visibility (no such data in any report) or they just weren't looking for her. All marine vessels have running lights.

I'd wait for clarification of the wild course changes. Could be amateurs misinterpreting data; could be real. It's been repeated on legit news sites (d.b.a. "Fake News" in Trump World), but no one in any authority in Japan or the US has commented. Internet sleuths are about 50/50 on these sorts of topics, aren't they? (Well other than the 433:1 wrong guess ratio on the Malaysian Airlines flight.)
The source of the course map is MarineTraffic.com. I don't know anything about them.
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:26 AM   #95
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One of my subs was pulling into Chinhae back in the 90's when I felt (I was on watch in the engine room) a backing bell ordered up. The OOD on the bridge watched a small fishing boat cross his path then stop to wave! The backing bell kept us from mowing down the little boat. The Korean patrol boat escorting us got the fisherman out of the way so we could continue into port.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:35 AM   #96
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Has trump even given a statement on this?
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:41 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Has trump even given a statement on this?
Do we want him to? The man is not very good at condolences.

I mean seriously imagine a letter like his one to John Travolta to the grieving parents.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7380161.html
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:42 PM   #98
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Trump just tweeted on it - the seven are identified:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...96144944762880
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:05 PM   #99
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Aren't there enough Trump threads already for you all to post in? I'm trying to read up on two ships colliding, and it only took 3 pages to find another Trump derangement syndrome derail. Thanks.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:16 PM   #100
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You think it's bad here, the Washington Post discussion of this is dominated by those trying to blame either Trump or Obama for the collision.............
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Yeah, (duuuh)... I left out the most obvious. The ACX Crystal certainly isn't a stealth ship. And the Fitzgerald, by its definition/purpose is surely equipped with the best radar money can buy. (The Crystal would have a pretty decent system, too.)
Specifically, the Fitzgerald has an AN/SPS-67 surface scanning radar with a range of 104 km (56.2 nmi). It's probably not that much better than comparable civilian surface-search radars, but should be more than adequate for the job. The ACX Crystal would have had a similar radar. Both ships should have been well aware of all the other surface traffic in the area, including heading and speed data, and should have been able to plot their courses accordingly.



---

The Fitzgerald also has an AN/SPY-1 radar array, but it's the centerpiece of the Aegis Combat System and probably wasn't active at the time (it's so powerful that the crew must be warned periodically whenever it is on, so that they don't unknowingly carry out some task that takes them too close to its emitters).
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:54 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, and this radar will tell you if you are going to crash into another ship long before you do.

Same for the Lake Champlain.

In fact, it will tell you if you are even going to come close to each other.

The Navy ships really should have avoided the civilian ships, no matter what.
Even if they were on suicide runs and trying to ram...
Well the Navy ship(s) certainly should have tried to avoid the civilian ship no matter what. If they tried to do so, and if avoiding a collision was physically possible, is yet to be determined (there is a lot of momentum behind moving ships, and even though destroyers are particularly nimble I can imagine scenarios in which it would be impossible to avoid another ship making a sudden turn in violation of the rules of the road). It all depends on proximity and speed.

The damage suggests that the bow area of the Crystal hit the forward side of the Fitzgerald- that is technically the Crystal hit the Fitzgerald. If this was due to an error on the part of the Crystal ( a sudden change in course as the ships were paralleling one another) or due to an error by the Fitzgerald that made such a hit unavoidable (trying to cross in front of the Crystal), is not yet clear.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:42 PM   #103
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Philippine Flagged?

I saw some confusion about this on a news site's comments. It's a container vessel built in Korean yards, I believe, to the order of a company that then leases the vessels out long term. The flagging is a matter of economics and convenience. It does not mean that it is captained or that the owners have anything to do with the Philippines. You will find hundreds of Philippine, Panamanian, and Liberian flagged vessels. It's because it's cheaper to register your ships there and they don't put onerous requirements on the owners or the charterers.

If I'm not mistaken, the only concession the Philippines asks for is that the company hire Philippine crews. This isn't an onus, per se, Philippine merchant seamen are a mainstay of their economy. They are generally excellent.

Sorry if that's a derail. In the world of Politics, people assume flags mean something. In container shipping they really don't. It's like all those corporations you deal with that are incorporated in Delaware. A flag of convenience.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:09 PM   #104
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http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/19/po...ing/index.html

USN still saying crash took place at 2:20 local time. Japanese Coast Guard now saying it was 1:30. If that's close to accurate, it actually explains the mysterious maneuvering of the Crystal. CNN says it still leaves it a question, with which I disagree. When the Jpn CG put the timeline together more precisely, I believe it's going to show that the abrupt course change was right at the time of the crash and immediately thereafter. First trying to avoid the Fitzgerald, then turning about to render assistance and comply with normal procedures.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:23 PM   #105
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Under Power meets Under Power in International Rules of the Sea means give way to Starboard. Since the Fitzgerald was hit on their starboard side, that would seem to indicate that they tried to incorrectly cross the bow of the Crystal instead of giving way and passing behind them.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:54 PM   #106
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What, no collision alarm?
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
What, no collision alarm?
Huh? They still have to maneuver the ships. There can be alarms blasting all over the place. The radar and guidance systems were probably giving both bridges alarms ten to fifteen minutes out. It's not green blips on a screen with someone figuring them out. It tells you how far you are and based on current own speed and the speed gleaned from the instruments, when and where you're going to collide, plus gives you point-of-no-return indicators.

The instruments and alarms should've done their jobs. It's the homo sapiens that they're probably mostly looking at.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:21 PM   #108
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I was reading the opinion of a guy from Jane's who looked at the course map. He thinks that the Crystal was on autopilot and that nobody was watching anything and everyone may have been asleep. He says the U-turn happens right after the collision and though at that point is being manually steered the autopilot is still not turned off. The U-turn was done to go back and see what they had hit. Then the Crystal speeds up and resumes its original course... still on autopilot. He thinks nobody shut off the autopilot, or they didn't know how to do it. He says that no captain would have quickly powered away after learning that they had hit a Navy ship. Apparently, only about 10 minutes lapsed between the time of collision and the speeding up and corrected resumption of the course to their destination.

I have no idea if any of that makes sense, or is possible.

Also earlier today I read an article saying that the entire crew is Filipino.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:50 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
A container ship does nothing abruptly. Looking at the scale on that map, this u-turn was almost 10 miles long. I think it's likely he was holding on his slot to enter the harbor (and pick-up a pilot).

I'm sure the investigation will shed light on this.

This map agrees with that. The first 90 to starboard to clear the shipping lane, then running the racetrack south in an area clear of other ships (except stealth destroyers)


http://rebrn.com/re/bodies-of-missin...erald-3302889/
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:54 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
... then turning about to render assistance and comply with normal procedures.
That makes so much sense, you are one smart dude.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I saw some confusion about this on a news site's comments. It's a container vessel built in Korean yards, I believe, to the order of a company that then leases the vessels out long term. The flagging is a matter of economics and convenience. It does not mean that it is captained or that the owners have anything to do with the Philippines. You will find hundreds of Philippine, Panamanian, and Liberian flagged vessels. It's because it's cheaper to register your ships there and they don't put onerous requirements on the owners or the charterers.

If I'm not mistaken, the only concession the Philippines asks for is that the company hire Philippine crews. This isn't an onus, per se, Philippine merchant seamen are a mainstay of their economy. They are generally excellent.

Sorry if that's a derail. In the world of Politics, people assume flags mean something. In container shipping they really don't. It's like all those corporations you deal with that are incorporated in Delaware. A flag of convenience.
Indeed.

For instance, pretty much all the tourist ships traveling up and down the Rhine in Germany and the Netherlands, and the Danube in Germany, Austria and Hungary are flagged in Malta for economic reasons. River ships. They never make it to the sea, much less the Med to Malta. And there's not a single Maltese in the crews or the owners.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:56 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
... The U-turn was done to go back and see what they had hit. ...
Or help with rescues.

Of course! You too sir, get admiration for common sense of the day.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:58 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
This map agrees with that. The first 90 to starboard to clear the shipping lane, then running the racetrack south in an area clear of other ships (except stealth destroyers)


http://rebrn.com/re/bodies-of-missin...erald-3302889/
I'm putting waiting for one's turn to enter the harbor down to #2 possibility on the list. I've not ruled it out.
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Old 19th June 2017, 07:24 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Or help with rescues.
But the Jane's guy says that only 15 minutes passed before the Crystal powered on to its destination.

It must have been chaos on the Fitzgerald. Then the Crystal swings back, does a little jog, and is then right back to going to their port.

The Crystal was in the vicinity of the collision for too short of a period of time to do much of anything, let alone help with rescues. It's not mentioned if the two ships communicated at all.
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Old 19th June 2017, 07:43 PM   #115
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High resolution tracking.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fullscreen_6_16_17__8_48_PM-800x411.jpg (18.2 KB, 30 views)
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Old 19th June 2017, 07:54 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But the Jane's guy says that only 15 minutes passed before the Crystal powered on to its destination.

It must have been chaos on the Fitzgerald. Then the Crystal swings back, does a little jog, and is then right back to going to their port.

The Crystal was in the vicinity of the collision for too short of a period of time to do much of anything, let alone help with rescues. It's not mentioned if the two ships communicated at all.
And?

Read the comments in Nostradamus's link. The Crystal came back as SOP and then received a probable wave-off from the Fitzgerald because .... it's a military ship and they wanted to handle it themselves.

Now, as to the Crystal's crew being all Filipino ... SCANDAL...
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Old 19th June 2017, 09:47 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I was reading the opinion of a guy from Jane's who looked at the course map. He thinks that the Crystal was on autopilot and that nobody was watching anything and everyone may have been asleep. He says the U-turn happens right after the collision and though at that point is being manually steered the autopilot is still not turned off. The U-turn was done to go back and see what they had hit. Then the Crystal speeds up and resumes its original course... still on autopilot. He thinks nobody shut off the autopilot, or they didn't know how to do it. He says that no captain would have quickly powered away after learning that they had hit a Navy ship. Apparently, only about 10 minutes lapsed between the time of collision and the speeding up and corrected resumption of the course to their destination.

I have no idea if any of that makes sense, or is possible.

Also earlier today I read an article saying that the entire crew is Filipino.
Which guy from Jane's? Link, please? Anyone can say they are from Jane's. It's puzzling how a "guy from Jane's" is commenting, but not on the Jane's news site.

Be that as it may... even if it's Jane, herself (cough) it would depend on the timeline being used. Are they working from the Coast Guard timeline - that the collision actually occurred at 1:30(roughly) or the initial report that it was around 2:15 to 2:30.

If the collision was later, then the OMG LOOKIT THAT U TURN is very suspicious. If the collision occurs as the JCG says, at 1:30, then you need to look at the course map. I believe that sharp right turn is the collision.

First Mate: Cap'n that navy guy isn't moving to port it looks like he's going to try to pass in front of us!

Captain: Hard Starboard! Hard Starboard.

That track works only with that scenario unless we imagine that the auto-pilot was drinking on the job and electronically decided to make a near-impossible maneuver.

Oh, and "everybody must've been asleep"??!! Really??!! Someone from Jane's said that??!!
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Old 19th June 2017, 09:58 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
This map agrees with that. The first 90 to starboard to clear the shipping lane, then running the racetrack south in an area clear of other ships (except stealth destroyers)


http://rebrn.com/re/bodies-of-missin...erald-3302889/
Y'all failed Map Reading Class?? Look again. She made the hard-to-starboard move and proceeded for a few minutes then went into what looks like the initial maneuver to bring her about (you arc a bit to starboard to commence a turning circle), then straightened her course to NNE to NE and proceeded about 10 km (roughly twenty minutes, I reckon) the came about and headed back to the crash site.

I didn't do a screen capture but the navies will have the timeline I originally commented on. She was proceeding at about 18 knots at the time of the collision. She did not slow her engines at that time. Why? To make that starboard maneuver you need full power... to make any tight maneuver you need the engines working the screws at their max. She did, however, slow and I think that's at the top of that turn you see before she's heading south, which she did at optimal speed and then slowed to a near stop again..... RIGHT AT THE COLLISION SITE.

The maps of the course are worthless unless we have time stamps. The crazies on Alt Dot Nutzos websites have her circling about to hunt down the Fitzgerald. Yeah, of course. I'm going to go hard to starboard for no reason, plow northwards for 10 km, then bring her about at my glorious maximum of 18 knots to ram a heavily armed warship that can do double my speed. Sure I am.
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Old 19th June 2017, 09:59 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find it fascinating that Sputnik News and RT both had the story before CNN.

The missing sailors sounds awful given it's been hours and they've yet to find them.
Were the Russians watching in real time?
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:35 PM   #120
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Were the Russians watching in real time?
Doubt it. Time zone, proximity, something more like that.
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