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Old 19th June 2017, 02:08 AM   #41
baron
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I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with white nationalism. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with white nationalism than any other ideology. The vast majority of white nationalists are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to white nationalism that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the white nationalist community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any white nationalist who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:17 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with white nationalism. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with white nationalism than any other ideology. The vast majority of white nationalists are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to white nationalism that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the white nationalist community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any white nationalist who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
**** comparison is ****.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
rDidn' you read? Turkish Kurds from Van
No, actually a van rented in Wales. Seems the terrorist drove a long way, presumably targetting FP Mosque because of its noteriety in the early-2000s.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:22 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
**** comparison is ****.
I don't see why. It's spot on.

Islam is a supremacist ideology which mandates expansion by violent means, so it's actually far worse than white nationalism which simply asks that white people not be erased in their traditional lands.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:32 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with white nationalism. ...snip...
How do you know? The police don't seem to have issued any information beyond "A 48-year-old man"?
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you know? The police don't seem to have issued any information beyond "A 48-year-old man"?
I think you need to re-read my post in the spirit it was intended.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:35 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I think you need to re-read my post in the spirit it was intended.
Which was?
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:37 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I don't see why. It's spot on.

Islam is a supremacist ideology which mandates expansion by violent means, so it's actually far worse than white nationalism which simply asks that white people not be erased in their traditional lands.
Your idea of the Quranic text or its history is not equivalent to how it is lived by more than a billion diverse people around the world.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:42 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which was?
Sideroxylon gets it. You can tell by his outraged response, which vindicates my assumption perfectly. But if you don't get it, I'll explain.

How distasteful is it, after a terrorist attack, to not only say nothing about the victims, but to immediately try and assign victim status to the group that shares the ideology of the attacker? Yet this is what happens every single time an Islamic terrorist attack is perpetrated in the West.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:46 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Sideroxylon gets it. You can tell by his outraged response, which vindicates my assumption perfectly. But if you don't get it, I'll explain.

How distasteful is it, after a terrorist attack, to not only say nothing about the victims, but to immediately try and assign victim status to the group that shares the ideology of the attacker? Yet this is what happens every single time an Islamic terrorist attack is perpetrated in the West.
Examples please.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:49 AM   #51
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The analogy would have worked if you'd said "white people" to parallel "muslims".

But you said "white nationalism" which is loaded with different meanings than just "white people" and depending on what exactly it means to you, might be a closer parallel to "Islamism". After Muslim extremist terrorist attacks you hear calls for no reprisals on "Muslims" not "Islamists".
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:49 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Examples please.
Oh come off it.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:53 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The analogy would have worked if you'd said "white people" to parallel "muslims".

But you said "white nationalism" which is loaded with different meanings than just "white people" and depending on what exactly it means to you, might be a closer parallel to "Islamism". After Muslim extremist terrorist attacks you hear calls for no reprisals on "Muslims" not "Islamists".
You're confusing race with ideology. White nationalism is an ideology. Islam is an ideology. After an Islamic attack you hear about solidarity with Muslims, not semites or Afghans or people with brown skin. My comparison was accurate.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:03 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Sideroxylon gets it. You can tell by his outraged response, which vindicates my assumption perfectly. But if you don't get it, I'll explain.

How distasteful is it, after a terrorist attack, to not only say nothing about the victims, but to immediately try and assign victim status to the group that shares the ideology of the attacker? Yet this is what happens every single time an Islamic terrorist attack is perpetrated in the West.
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Examples please.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Oh come off it.
Thanks for the explanation - but I do have to ask like Sideroxylon - can you point to an example of what you were attempting to satirise?
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:05 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Whites having enough of a growing Muslim invasive group they've never approved of importing?...
Just curious. Where does this leave white Muslims?
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:08 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Just curious. Where does this leave white Muslims?
In re-education camps?
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:11 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're confusing race with ideology. White nationalism is an ideology. Islam is an ideology. After an Islamic attack you hear about solidarity with Muslims, not semites or Afghans or people with brown skin. My comparison was accurate.
Hmmmmmmm.......

I'm not 100% sure that the ideology stands. AFAIK white nationalism is a pretty extreme form of racism and a very large proportion of its adherents seem to be violent thugs who present a very real physical threat to society in general and members of racial and/or religious minorities in particular.

OTOH the vast majority of Muslims are moderate and present no threat to UK society in general or non-Muslims in particular. I'm with Jack by the hedge, the better comparison would be to the white population as a whole.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:12 AM   #58
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You would put fellow members of the white race in camps? Because you don't like their religion? Tsk tsk.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:15 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
After an Islamic attack you hear about solidarity with Muslims
... but not with Radical Islamism.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with white nationalism. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with white nationalism than any other ideology. The vast majority of white nationalists are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to white nationalism that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the white nationalist community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any white nationalist who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
Very amusing indeed. But you are entirely right in that this is no justification for abusive behaviour towards white people, or bans on immigration from White Majority countries, and if the perpetrator is a Christian, this incident will not justify persecution of Christians. The person who deserves punishment is the perpetrator and accomplices, if any; not fellow ethnics or coreligionists, as I am glad you so clearly perceive and so robustly assert.

The term "white nationalist" is less clear, as some of these are violent racists (whom I am sure you're not embracing) but the majority who are not violent racists can not be blamed for this incident, whoever the perpetrator may have been.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:18 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Hmmmmmmm.......

I'm not 100% sure that the ideology stands. AFAIK white nationalism is a pretty extreme form of racism and a very large proportion of its adherents seem to be violent thugs who present a very real physical threat to society in general and members of racial and/or religious minorities in particular.

OTOH the vast majority of Muslims are moderate and present no threat to UK society in general or non-Muslims in particular. I'm with Jack by the hedge, the better comparison would be to the white population as a whole.
Being born white is a genetic trait you have no influence of, being Muslim is a voluntary decision. Yes, I know the decision is often a influenced by manipulation or coercion by the society. That doesn't change the fact it is quite possible to both accept or renounce Islam but it is not possible to declare yourself white or non-white.

If you want to go down that way you need to compare people of WAS descent to people of Pakistani descent or people of Muslim faith to people who are not of Muslim faith (either some other faith or atheist) or a combination thereof.

Comparing whites to Muslims is no different to comparing Christians to Arabs.

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Old 19th June 2017, 03:20 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Oh come off it.
You have nothing defensible.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're confusing race with ideology. White nationalism is an ideology. Islam is an ideology. After an Islamic attack you hear about solidarity with Muslims, not semites or Afghans or people with brown skin. My comparison was accurate.
Islam is a religion. Islamism is an ideology.

You parodied calls not to blame a billion Muslims for the acts of vile extremists by choosing as your comparison "white nationalism". How many people do you imagine identify themselves as that?

The term "white nationalism" may sound innocuous to you, conjuring a warm sense of friendly neighbourliness, motherhood and apple pie. To others it might be as innocuous sounding as, say, "Wahhabism".
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
if the perpetrator is a Christian, this incident will not justify persecution of Christians.
Why do you need to state this at all? Unlike his Muslim foes he didn't invoke Christian teachings for his attack. If the reports are true it seems to be a tit-for-tat response for the recent attacks committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. He even got the MO from a recent Islamic terrorist attack in London.

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Old 19th June 2017, 03:23 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
You would put fellow members of the white race in camps? Because you don't like their religion? Tsk tsk.
No different than de-programming a Scientologist.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:23 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Islam is a religion. Islamism is an ideology.
Aren't all religions also ideologies by definition?

Ideology (from Greek ιδεολογία) is a comprehensive set of normative beliefs, conscious and unconscious ideas, that an individual, group or society has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology

Not all ideologies are religions, but all religions are ideologies.

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Old 19th June 2017, 03:24 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks for the explanation - but I do have to ask like Sideroxylon - can you point to an example of what you were attempting to satirise?
They are innumerable and you'll find examples in every thread on the subject, often followed by my own criticism. More pertinently you see it on the TV, where 'liberal' commentators and community leaders make a quick reference to the attack (sometimes) then focus on how the Muslim community now fears a 'backlash'. In the wake of the Paris attacks the BBC interviewed two Muslim women who had experienced Islamophobia in the light of the mass murders, and after being pressed several times one described how she was regularly 'stared at' on the Tube. Mark Steyn has it that, "The bodies are still warm in the Canadian parliament, in the coffee shop in Sydney, in the office of Charlie Hebdo in Paris and in New York, yet somehow Muslims still manage to manoeuver themselves into the victim seat." He's not entirely correct as some of the manoevering comes from the so-called liberal left, but that's the idea.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:27 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Being born white is a genetic trait you have no influence of, being Muslim is a voluntary decision. Yes, I know the decision is often a influenced by manipulation or coercion by the society. That doesn't change the fact it is quite possible to both accept or renounce Islam but it is not possible to declare yourself white or non-white.

If you want to go down that way you need to compare people of WAS descent to people of Pakistani descent or people of Muslim faith to people who are not of Muslim faith (either some other faith or atheist) or a combination thereof.

Comparing whites to Muslims is no different to comparing Christians to Arabs.

McHrozni
You're right.

Let's assume that all white nationalists are football supporters. The more accurate analogy would therefore be to football supporters rather than white nationalists.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:33 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Very amusing indeed. But you are entirely right in that this is no justification for abusive behaviour towards white people, or bans on immigration from White Majority countries, and if the perpetrator is a Christian, this incident will not justify persecution of Christians. The person who deserves punishment is the perpetrator and accomplices, if any; not fellow ethnics or coreligionists, as I am glad you so clearly perceive and so robustly assert.

The term "white nationalist" is less clear, as some of these are violent racists (whom I am sure you're not embracing) but the majority who are not violent racists can not be blamed for this incident, whoever the perpetrator may have been.
In response to you and several others, my point has been clearly proved by the fact my post produced such a reaction. A directly paralleled post in a thread about an Islamic attack would have gone without comment (unless I caught sight of it). Imagine that someone was unwise enough to go on TV and say what I said, tongue-in-cheek, in this thread. If they were able to get airtime in the first place they would be vilified from all sides. They would lose their job, they would likely be assaulted. At the very least the general distaste for their position would be made crystal clear. Let's have a little balance.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:33 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
No different than de-programming a Scientologist.
Or homosexual conversion.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You're right.

Let's assume that all white nationalists are football supporters. The more accurate analogy would therefore be to football supporters rather than white nationalists.
Yeah, that would be a better comparison. Certainly there is argument to be made that competitive sports have filled the niche that used to be occupied a religion. A game of football (or any other competitive sport, save perhaps baseball) is more entertaining that a typical sermon, that's for sure.

However since some sports (football) are more likely to have violent fans than others (snooker, chess, figure skating), this also implies it is plausible some religions are more likely to attract violent adherents than others. In sports this is usually explained by the fact some sports are more widely appealing and attract unsavory audience, whereas more complex sports don't attract the unsavory people who go watch something more to their tastes instead.

Assuming the comparison is 100% accurate (here we focus on converts only), what is the implication for religions here?

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Old 19th June 2017, 03:35 AM   #72
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If I can intrude with some news about the event that is (in theory) the subject of this thread. The New York Times reported within the past hour that London police are treating this as a possible terrorist attack. Possibly a retaliatory attack by a non-Muslim.

Quote:
The authorities in Britain said on Monday that they were treating an early morning attack near a mosque in London as a possible act of terrorism, amid fears of retaliation after several recent assaults in the country attributed to Islamist extremists.

Neil Basu, the senior national coordinator for counterterrorism at the Metropolitan Police, said that the assailant, whom the police identified as a 48-year-old white man, was believed to have acted alone. Mr. Basu also praised the bystanders who had intervened to detain the suspect, and he urged residents to remain calm and vigilant. Link
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:36 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Sideroxylon gets it. You can tell by his outraged response, which vindicates my assumption perfectly. But if you don't get it, I'll explain.

How distasteful is it, after a terrorist attack, to not only say nothing about the victims, but to immediately try and assign victim status to the group that shares the ideology of the attacker? Yet this is what happens every single time an Islamic terrorist attack is perpetrated in the West.
Islamist != Islamic.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:37 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Islamist != Islamic.
All Islamists are Islamic, not everything Islamic is also Islamist.

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Old 19th June 2017, 03:40 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Or homosexual conversion.
Do you think there's some sort of merit to Islam? Lol
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:40 AM   #76
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Last edited by Sideroxylon; 19th June 2017 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:43 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yeah, that would be a better comparison. Certainly there is argument to be made that competitive sports have filled the niche that used to be occupied a religion. A game of football (or any other competitive sport, save perhaps baseball) is more entertaining that a typical sermon, that's for sure.

However since some sports (football) are more likely to have violent fans than others (snooker, chess, figure skating), this also implies it is plausible some religions are more likely to attract violent adherents than others. In sports this is usually explained by the fact some sports are more widely appealing and attract unsavory audience, whereas more complex sports don't attract the unsavory people who go watch something more to their tastes instead.

Assuming the comparison is 100% accurate (here we focus on converts only), what is the implication for religions here?

McHrozni
It does, how ?

As you point out, football disproportionately draws its support from drunken, young, white, males from less privileged backgrounds all of which correlate to violence. Of course whether it's cause or effect - are certain people attracted to football because of its reputation for fan violence or has fan violence merely been a result of getting so many drunken, young, white, males from less privileged backgrounds together ?

I'm not sure that the same is true for Islam. I don't think the "average" Muslim, or even "average" Muslim convert hits so many of those points.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:44 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
... my point has been clearly proved by the fact my post produced such a reaction. A directly paralleled post in a thread about an Islamic attack would have gone without comment (unless I caught sight of it)...
Are you reading the same forum as the rest of us? The single most tiresome thing on this forum is the way threads about any current issue are filled by people complaining about what they reckon their political opponents will think and say about the issue.

Are you actually just complaining that you're having to carry too much of the burden of complaining in anticipation of what liberal commentators will say about Islamist outrages? Do you feel other anti-Islamic posters aren't pulling their weight?
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:50 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Are you reading the same forum as the rest of us? The single most tiresome thing on this forum is the way threads about any current issue are filled by people complaining about what they reckon their political opponents will think and say about the issue.

Are you actually just complaining that you're having to carry too much of the burden of complaining in anticipation of what liberal commentators will say about Islamist outrages? Do you feel other anti-Islamic posters aren't pulling their weight?
My point has been proved, I don't need any further help, thanks.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:52 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
My point has been proved, I don't need any further help, thanks.
More argument less posturing.
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