ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th June 2017, 03:57 AM   #81
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,181
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It does, how ?
How many violent, drunken riots have been recorded after snooker tournaments by fans of this player or the other? Assuming the comparison is valid the same should apply to religions. Indeed a similar comparison with religions will create a similar (if not quite as one-sided) result.

Quote:
As you point out, football disproportionately draws its support from drunken, young, white, males from less privileged backgrounds all of which correlate to violence. Of course whether it's cause or effect - are certain people attracted to football because of its reputation for fan violence or has fan violence merely been a result of getting so many drunken, young, white, males from less privileged backgrounds together ?
I think it's a little of each, plus football is a relatively simple game and attracts simple people more quickly than complex games do, which is why they disproportionately cluster there.

Quote:
I'm not sure that the same is true for Islam. I don't think the "average" Muslim, or even "average" Muslim convert hits so many of those points.
It depends on how you define a "football fan". If it's anyone who watched the world cup, football fans almost match the numbers of Muslims and Christians combined. If it's anyone who watched the finale live that's still 1 billion people. I'm sure that's way more than the number of Muslim converts worldwide.

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=...--2745519.html

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 19th June 2017 at 04:03 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 04:03 AM   #82
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,189
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
If I can intrude with some news about the event that is (in theory) the subject of this thread. The New York Times reported within the past hour that London police are treating this as a possible terrorist attack. Possibly a retaliatory attack by a non-Muslim.
Then New York Times seems to be on something like a five hour delay, as that's how the BBC were reporting it since at least 07:00, when I got up. Maybe the NYT got sidetracked looking for an angle to undermine the police investigation....

Last edited by Information Analyst; 19th June 2017 at 04:06 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 04:06 AM   #83
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
More argument less posturing.
I'm not the one who has posted a total of 25 words in eight posts.

But since you're obviously desperate to learn, how about Mayor Bloomberg's reaction to the terrorist car bomb that was primed for detonation in Times Square in 2010. Before any facts whatsoever came to light he stated that the person responsible was probably, "Homegrown, maybe a mentally deranged person or someone with a political agenda that doesn't like the health care bill." Neglecting to warn his subjects against vilifying or attacking any person with mental health problems or politically opposed to the healthcare bill, he had another statement to make two days later when the perpetrator turned out to be a certain Faisal Shahzad, a Muslim of Pakistani origin, and Bloomberg was quick to order the city that on no account would "any bias or backlash against Pakistanis or Muslim New Yorkers" be tolerated.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 04:15 AM   #84
newyorkguy
Philosopher
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,047
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Then New York Times seems to be on something like a five hour delay, as that's how the BBC were reporting it since at least 07:00, when I got up. Maybe the NYT got sidetracked looking for an angle to undermine the police investigation....
I've noticed in threads about events that are still unfolding, especially ones that are jarring, the discussions tend to be mostly a series of emotional semi-rants. Not too much about the actual event. First, everybody wants to air out their feelings. The discussion about the facts of the incident itself usually doesn't take place until enough hours have gone by that people begin to calm down a bit. This thread serves as a example.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 04:31 AM   #85
Ethan Thane Athen
Graduate Poster
 
Ethan Thane Athen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,740
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I don't see why. It's spot on.

Islam is a supremacist ideology which mandates expansion by violent means, so it's actually far worse than white nationalism which simply asks that white people not be erased in their traditional lands.
From memory, you're a white American?

When are you leaving the land you invaded, to the people whose 'traditional land' it actually is and returning to your traditional land?*

*Not that they'll necessarily want you back.
Ethan Thane Athen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 04:50 AM   #86
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,739
Originally Posted by baron View Post
They are innumerable and you'll find examples in every thread on the subject, often followed by my own criticism. More pertinently you see it on the TV, where 'liberal' commentators and community leaders make a quick reference to the attack (sometimes) then focus on how the Muslim community now fears a 'backlash'. In the wake of the Paris attacks the BBC interviewed two Muslim women who had experienced Islamophobia in the light of the mass murders, and after being pressed several times one described how she was regularly 'stared at' on the Tube. Mark Steyn has it that, "The bodies are still warm in the Canadian parliament, in the coffee shop in Sydney, in the office of Charlie Hebdo in Paris and in New York, yet somehow Muslims still manage to manoeuver themselves into the victim seat." He's not entirely correct as some of the manoevering comes from the so-called liberal left, but that's the idea.
All well and good but could you point to an example please?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:14 AM   #87
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Old Blighty
Posts: 10,089
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with white nationalism. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with white nationalism than any other ideology. The vast majority of white nationalists are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to white nationalism that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the white nationalist community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any white nationalist who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.

What...?!
__________________
Galveston, oh, Galveston,
I still hear your seawaves crashin,
while I watch the cannons flashin'.
I clean my gun, and dream of Galveston ~ Glenn Campbell RIP
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:16 AM   #88
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Old Blighty
Posts: 10,089
Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're confusing race with ideology. White nationalism is an ideology. Islam is an ideology. After an Islamic attack you hear about solidarity with Muslims, not semites or Afghans or people with brown skin. My comparison was accurate.
You ain't no White Van man, bruv.
__________________
Galveston, oh, Galveston,
I still hear your seawaves crashin,
while I watch the cannons flashin'.
I clean my gun, and dream of Galveston ~ Glenn Campbell RIP
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:17 AM   #89
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,998
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
How many violent, drunken riots have been recorded after snooker tournaments by fans of this player or the other? Assuming the comparison is valid the same should apply to religions. Indeed a similar comparison with religions will create a similar (if not quite as one-sided) result.
Snooker tournaments have a completely different fan demographic.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think it's a little of each, plus football is a relatively simple game and attracts simple people more quickly than complex games do, which is why they disproportionately cluster there.
I'm not sure that your comparison stands. (Ice) Hockey is IMO about as simple as football and yet attracts a completely different demographic in the UK (it's a family based sport). Complexity/Simplicity of the sport doesn't seem to be the major factor otherwise riots would break out after every marathon.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It depends on how you define a "football fan". If it's anyone who watched the world cup, football fans almost match the numbers of Muslims and Christians combined. If it's anyone who watched the finale live that's still 1 billion people. I'm sure that's way more than the number of Muslim converts worldwide.

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=...--2745519.html

McHrozni
....so what ? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

This part of the thread relates to a comment that when talking about violent attacks, Muslims are equivalent to White Nationalists. I'm suggesting that a more apposite comparison would be between Muslims and football supporters. No doubt most, if not all, violent right wing thugs are football supporters but they are as representative of football supporters as a whole as Islamic terrorists are of Muslims as a whole - i.e. not very.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:20 AM   #90
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Old Blighty
Posts: 10,089
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm not the one who has posted a total of 25 words in eight posts.

But since you're obviously desperate to learn, how about Mayor Bloomberg's reaction to the terrorist car bomb that was primed for detonation in Times Square in 2010. Before any facts whatsoever came to light he stated that the person responsible was probably, "Homegrown, maybe a mentally deranged person or someone with a political agenda that doesn't like the health care bill." Neglecting to warn his subjects against vilifying or attacking any person with mental health problems or politically opposed to the healthcare bill, he had another statement to make two days later when the perpetrator turned out to be a certain Faisal Shahzad, a Muslim of Pakistani origin, and Bloomberg was quick to order the city that on no account would "any bias or backlash against Pakistanis or Muslim New Yorkers" be tolerated.


Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12
__________________
Galveston, oh, Galveston,
I still hear your seawaves crashin,
while I watch the cannons flashin'.
I clean my gun, and dream of Galveston ~ Glenn Campbell RIP

Last edited by kmortis; 19th June 2017 at 09:12 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:29 AM   #91
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,025
Stupid white supremacists... too stupid to realise that this sort of action is EXACTLY what groups like ISIS want them to do.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:31 AM   #92
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,181
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Snooker tournaments have a completely different fan demographic.
That's why I brought it up. I was wavering between chess and snooker and decided upon the latter. The fan demographic is different for different sports. Surely that implies the demographic of converts to different religions could also be different, no?

Quote:
I'm not sure that your comparison stands. (Ice) Hockey is IMO about as simple as football and yet attracts a completely different demographic in the UK (it's a family based sport). Complexity/Simplicity of the sport doesn't seem to be the major factor otherwise riots would break out after every marathon.
Complexity/simplicity are an important factor which determine to some extent who will watch the sport. People with simple minds, who form the overwhelming majority of groups such as white nationalists, will also gravitate towards simple sports. This is by no means exclusive, nor will they gravitate towards all simple sports equally. There are other reasons, but complexity of the sport is a significant non-random factor.

Quote:
....so what ? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
The point is simple enough. Different sports attract different people and demographics, for various reasons. Different religions are analogs and attract different people and different demographics too, also for various reasons.

You can tell something about the sport if you take a look about it's fan base. You can also tell something about the religion if you take a good, hard look at it's converts.

Do you get the point now?

Quote:
This part of the thread relates to a comment that when talking about violent attacks, Muslims are equivalent to White Nationalists. I'm suggesting that a more apposite comparison would be between Muslims and football supporters. No doubt most, if not all, violent right wing thugs are football supporters but they are as representative of football supporters as a whole as Islamic terrorists are of Muslims as a whole - i.e. not very.
No doubt. No doubt the presence of violent right wing thugs in among soccer fans also tells you something about soccer. For whatever reason it appeals to them, they like soccer better than they like snooker.

The presence of terrorists among converts to Islam also tells you the same thing about Islam. For whatever reason people who want to kill others convert overwhelmingly to Islam and not to, say, Scientology - assuming the interpretation where Islam is not a causative factor in their decision to kill is correct, of course.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 19th June 2017 at 05:45 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:33 AM   #93
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,189
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Complexity/simplicity are an important factor which determine to some extent who will watch the sport.
You've obviously not heard of the off-side rule.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:34 AM   #94
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,205
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Stupid white supremacists... too stupid to realise that this sort of action is EXACTLY what groups like ISIS want them to do.
For what greater goal?

To deepen divisions and force Muslims toward extremism and entrenchment with fundamentalists like ISIS?

News flash: that serves our purpose too.

Their goal is conquest / caliphate. Our goal is divorce. Both are served by deepening divisions and the destruction of the moderate middle in all its manifestations.
__________________
"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." - Thomas Jefferson
Reality is going to force you to become me.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:46 AM   #95
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,181
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You've obviously not heard of the off-side rule.
Eh. It doesn't make soccer a complex sport.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:52 AM   #96
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All well and good but could you point to an example please?
I just did.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12
Edited to remove something that could drag the thread even more OT.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.

Last edited by kmortis; 19th June 2017 at 09:12 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:56 AM   #97
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Why do you need to state this at all? Unlike his Muslim foes he didn't invoke Christian teachings for his attack. If the reports are true it seems to be a tit-for-tat response for the recent attacks committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. He even got the MO from a recent Islamic terrorist attack in London.

McHrozni
So Muslims re responsible for this attack too? We don't know on whose name he justifies the attack. But Muslims are no more in general to blame for people who use their religion to justify crimes than Christians in general are. Tit for tat, also invoked by Islamist terrorists, is not even the beginning of an excuse.

My coreligionists are being attacked by US imperialism! OK, what are you going to do about it? I'm going to murder teenagers at a concert in the UK. Tit for tat?
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 05:57 AM   #98
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,189
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Eh. It doesn't make soccer a complex sport.
Very little of it makes sense to me, notwithstanding the fact I've never attempted to understand it.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:00 AM   #99
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,885
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
What worries me most here is the backlash against White racists.
Yeah, who'd have thought that violent extremists would be despised?

This may be a good opportunity to realise that you're on the wrong side, here.
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:02 AM   #100
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,885
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Do you think there's some sort of merit to Islam? Lol
There's little merit to Christianity, either. But allowing people the freedom to do what they want isn't about the direct merit of those choices but about the bigger picture.
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:10 AM   #101
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So Muslims re responsible for this attack too? We don't know on whose name he justifies the attack. But Muslims are no more in general to blame for people who use their religion to justify crimes than Christians in general are. Tit for tat, also invoked by Islamist terrorists, is not even the beginning of an excuse.

My coreligionists are being attacked by US imperialism! OK, what are you going to do about it? I'm going to murder teenagers at a concert in the UK. Tit for tat?
At the ever present risk of being accused of apologising for this particular terrorist, your analogy is not strictly accurate. None of the children or parents at the Manchester concert were involved in killing Muslims in foreign lands. However, Finsbury mosque has a long history of the promotion of terrorism, producing a variety of extremists such as Reid, the shoe bomber, and one of the 911 conspirators, and presided over by Ol' Hooky himself, Abu Hamza. It was notorious for the preaching of hate speech against Jews, gays and non-Muslims. The mosque was shut down under counter-terror legislation some years ago and US Intelligence referred to it as a 'hotbed of terrorism'. In recent years it is alleged that it has cleaned up its act.

This doesn't excuse the terrorist actions in any way, but it should be borne in mind when evaluating the meaning of the phrase 'tit for tat'.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:15 AM   #102
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,739
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I just did .....snip...
Not really, you gave your summary of what you claim someone else had done, one would be surprised if that summary didn't fit your agenda. Can you point me to an actual example of what you were apparently satirising?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:24 AM   #103
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,739
Originally Posted by baron View Post
At the ever present risk of being accused of apologising for this particular terrorist, your analogy is not strictly accurate. None of the children or parents at the Manchester concert were involved in killing Muslims in foreign lands. However, Finsbury mosque has a long history of the promotion of terrorism, producing a variety of extremists such as Reid, the shoe bomber, and one of the 911 conspirators, and presided over by Ol' Hooky himself, Abu Hamza. It was notorious for the preaching of hate speech against Jews, gays and non-Muslims. The mosque was shut down under counter-terror legislation some years ago and US Intelligence referred to it as a 'hotbed of terrorism'. In recent years it is alleged that it has cleaned up its act.

This doesn't excuse the terrorist actions in any way, but it should be borne in mind when evaluating the meaning of the phrase 'tit for tat'.
Nice bit of misdirection, hoping no one would spot your "apples and gummy bears" comparison?
"None of the children or parents at the Manchester concert were involved in killing Muslims in foreign lands. "
So what you do here is point out that none of the people attacked had been involved in killing Muslims.

But then you try your bit of misdirection of guilt by association:

However, Finsbury mosque has a long history of the promotion of terrorism


Now do you have any evidence that anyone targeted by the terrorist in the early morning had any dealings with either the promotion of terrorism or terrorist attacks on people?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:24 AM   #104
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,752
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Does the cause matter?
That's part of what I'm asking.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:25 AM   #105
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,101
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with white nationalism. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with white nationalism than any other ideology. The vast majority of white nationalists are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to white nationalism that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the white nationalist community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any white nationalist who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
Nice try, but when you rephrase [category] as [category][subcategory] it doesn't work right. If you'd said,

Originally Posted by Not actually Baron
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with whiteness. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with whiteness than any other ideology. The vast majority of whites are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to whiteness that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the white community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any white who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
...then nobody could complain. However, back-translating what you actually wrote through the analogy filter, we get,

Originally Posted by Also not actually Baron
I'd like to point out that this incident has nothing to do with Islamic jihadism. In fact, to paraphrase one of Obama's many incisive observations, this has less to do with Islamic jihadism than any other ideology. The vast majority of Islamic jihadis are decent, law-abiding people and there is nothing inherent to Islamic jihadism that mandates violence. It is at times like this that we need to show solidarity with the Islamic jihadist community and make it clear we will stand with them against the inevitable backlash. I would urge any Islamic jihadist who believes they are a victim of hate crime to report it to the police, because such bigotry should not be tolerated. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
...which, I think, is a sentiment that would quite rightly provoke the real outrage that you're trying to manufacture a fake facsimile of.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:26 AM   #106
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Nice try, but when you rephrase [category] as [category][subcategory] it doesn't work right. If you'd said,



...then nobody could complain. However, back-translating what you actually wrote through the analogy filter, we get,



...which, I think, is a sentiment that would quite rightly provoke the real outrage that you're trying to manufacture a fake facsimile of.

Dave
Another one who doesn't know the difference between ethnicity and ideology.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:26 AM   #107
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,752
Nvm

Last edited by theprestige; 19th June 2017 at 06:28 AM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:28 AM   #108
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,101
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Another one who doesn't know the difference between ethnicity and ideology.
Rather than the difference between religion and ideology?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:43 AM   #109
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by baron View Post
At the ever present risk of being accused of apologising for this particular terrorist, your analogy is not strictly accurate. None of the children or parents at the Manchester concert were involved in killing Muslims in foreign lands. However, Finsbury mosque has a long history of the promotion of terrorism, producing a variety of extremists such as Reid, the shoe bomber, and one of the 911 conspirators, and presided over by Ol' Hooky himself, Abu Hamza. It was notorious for the preaching of hate speech against Jews, gays and non-Muslims. The mosque was shut down under counter-terror legislation some years ago and US Intelligence referred to it as a 'hotbed of terrorism'. In recent years it is alleged that it has cleaned up its act.

This doesn't excuse the terrorist actions in any way, but it should be borne in mind when evaluating the meaning of the phrase 'tit for tat'.
Why in your opinion doesn't excuse the anti Muslim terrorists? The he mosque's a centre for terrorist promotion according to you. Surely it's a legitimate target. Were German civilians not a legitimate target during WW2? So why not worshippers at a terrorist hate preaching mosque? Anyway if you're not excusing anti Muslim terrorists in any way, what should I bear in mind when considering the meaning of tit for tat? You haven't told me. So tell me.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:49 AM   #110
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,127
Originally Posted by baron View Post
My point has been proved, I don't need any further help, thanks.
Glad you scored a victory in your own mind. Just ignore all the reasons you failed to prove your point as explained by the other posters here. To you own self be true, right?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:55 AM   #111
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,302
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Do you think there's some sort of merit to Islam? Lol
Do you think there is some sort of merit to being white?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 06:58 AM   #112
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Rather than the difference between religion and ideology?

Dave
Tell me more about the difference between religion and ideology in Islam.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:06 AM   #113
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,127
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's part of what I'm asking.
I really would like to explore without the usual ideologically driven back and forth because I think it is a complex and interesting question. But I am unclear exactly what you are asking here. Are you asking if either "side" of these recent vans homicides represent soldiers in a cause? If so, both sides or only one?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:09 AM   #114
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why in your opinion doesn't excuse the anti Muslim terrorists? The he mosque's a centre for terrorist promotion according to you. Surely it's a legitimate target. Were German civilians not a legitimate target during WW2? So why not worshippers at a terrorist hate preaching mosque? Anyway if you're not excusing anti Muslim terrorists in any way, what should I bear in mind when considering the meaning of tit for tat? You haven't told me. So tell me.
A lot of people are struggling with the basics in this thread. That often happens when Islam is involved. Let me give you an analogy and ask two questions of my own (to which I don't expect an answer, these 'debates' are always a one-way information flow).

Scenario 1) A Muslim wants revenge for Muslims killed by Western forces in Iraq. He walks into a playground and blows up two dozen under-fives.

Scenario 2) A Muslim wants revenge for Muslims killed by Western forces in Iraq. He walks up to an army barracks and detonates a bomb, killing civilians.

Would you say both targets are equal in their legitimacy, or would you concede that whilst both acts of terrorism are wrong, one target is less reasoned than the other?

Question No. 2: Should Jeremy Corbyn come out and say that Islamic terrorists are the reason why this attack happened, in the same way that he said the West was the cause of Islamic terrorism? If not, why?
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:10 AM   #115
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,739
Originally Posted by baron View Post
A lot of people are struggling with the basics in this thread. That often happens when Islam is involved. Let me give you an analogy and ask two questions of my own (to which I don't expect an answer, these 'debates' are always a one-way information flow).

Scenario 1) A Muslim wants revenge for Muslims killed by Western forces in Iraq. He walks into a playground and blows up two dozen under-fives.

Scenario 2) A Muslim wants revenge for Muslims killed by Western forces in Iraq. He walks up to an army barracks and detonates a bomb, killing civilians.

Would you say both targets are equal in their legitimacy, or would you concede that whilst both acts of terrorism are wrong, one target is less reasoned that the other?

Question No. 2: Should Jeremy Corbyn come out and say that Islamic terrorists are the reason why this attack happened, in the same way that he said the West was the cause of Islamic terrorism? If not, why?
This has what to do with the attack early this morning?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:11 AM   #116
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Tell me more about the difference between religion and ideology in Islam.
Religious ideologies are that subset of ideologies that appeal to the supernatural as one of their principles. Islam certainly does this, as do other faiths. But Marxism doesn't.

In the case of the larger or more diversified religious communities, more than one single ideology may be included within the general category of a particular religion. There are several very different ideologies within the overall heading of Christianity, for example.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:13 AM   #117
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,127
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Tell me more about the difference between religion and ideology in Islam.
Tell me more which ideology among the many believed by the people who consider themselves Islamic you wish to discuss? For that matter, given the religious diversity of Islam, to which religious group within Islam are you referring?

But then, I have a strange feeling of deja vu about this. I somehow think this point has been brought up multiple times in multiple threads, and yet here you are (we are) yet again. Perhaps it is not worth discussing if you have your mind firmly made up despite what has been posted before.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:22 AM   #118
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This has what to do with the attack early this morning?
The connection is clear and the attack is directly referenced.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Religious ideologies are that subset of ideologies that appeal to the supernatural as one of their principles. Islam certainly does this, as do other faiths. But Marxism doesn't.

In the case of the larger or more diversified religious communities, more than one single ideology may be included within the general category of a particular religion. There are several very different ideologies within the overall heading of Christianity, for example.
There you go.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Tell me more which ideology among the many believed by the people who consider themselves Islamic you wish to discuss?
None of them at present.

No answers to my questions? What a surprise.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:28 AM   #119
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,739
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The connection is clear and the attack is directly referenced.

...snip...
Not to me it isn't. There has been no link at all established between the targets for last night's terrorism and their support for terrorism (Islamic or other).

Since no evidence has been presented that the targets of the terrorist attack have supported Islamic (or other) terrorism then the only evidenced connection is that some Muslims have supported Islamic terrorism and the targets of the attack this morning were Muslims.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2017, 07:31 AM   #120
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,127
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The connection is clear and the attack is directly referenced.



There you go.



None of them at present.

No answers to my questions? What a surprise.
Which questions? The ones you posted 3 minutes after my post? Just a few minutes ago? Gee- I will have to blame my age for being so slow. And of course I feel obligated to respond to every post in this thread because that is what I get paid to do, right? But if it is the post to which I think you are referring, see below.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.