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Tags David Gilroy , murder cases , Scotland cases

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Old 9th January 2020, 02:25 PM   #801
NightOfTheDemon
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Another theory and some more speculation

Possible disposal site at the end of this road in amongst the trees

https://www.google.com/maps/@56.1970...7i13312!8i6656

In March 2010 there was access as the road was ungated

https://www.google.com/maps/@56.1967...7i13312!8i6656

Gilroy leaves Inveraray at 18.58 and drives on the A83 to the above location, he turns left off the A83 and left again then disposes of the body in amongst the trees.

Once he has finished he leaves the disposal site and arrives here

https://www.google.com/maps/@56.1954...7i13312!8i6656

He sees the Ardgartan visitor centre and rather than turning right to get back to the junction of the A83/A819 (and crossing two lanes of traffic) he drives to the Ardgartan visitor centre where he stops for a few minutes.

This is where the witness spots him.

He then returns to the A83 then back to the junction of the A83/A819 (then on to the A819/A85/A82 to Tyndrum)

From the junction of the A83/A819 to the above disposal site then on to the Ardgartan visitor centre takes 25 minutes to drive 18.9 miles.

From the Ardgartan visitor centre back to the junction of the A83/A819 takes 26 minutes to drive 18.9 miles.

Total round trip is 37.8 miles taking 51 minutes (he has 94 minutes which leaves 43 minutes for disposal)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The extra 124 miles.

The distance between the Green Welly, Tyndrum and the Royal Burgh cafe Inveraray is 27.6 miles and should take 36 minutes at an average 46mph.

The 148 minutes it took Gilroy to get from Tyndrum to Inveraray (between 13.23 and 15.51) is 112 minutes more than normal.

The police think he was driving during the whole of these 112 minutes. (on a reccy)

If he was driving for 112 minutes at 46mph then he has covered 85.8 miles.

Driving at 46mph for 112 minutes covers 85.8 miles, add this to the above 37.8 miles gives a total of 123.6 miles.

Near enough.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 9th January 2020 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 02:37 PM   #802
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I think the whole scenario is fanciful in the extreme. Do you know the supposed sighting was at the Ardgartan visitor's centre, because I don't. I don't know where it was.

He had limited time at his disposal. This scenario suggests he spent the vast bulk of that time driving an enormous distance around the landscape to no great effect, leaving such a short time for the disposal that he could only have dumped the body and wouldn't have been able to bury it. The police have searched all that area, including with dogs, and no dumped body has been found (other than of the climber who met with an accident).

Not only that, this "recce" is unrealistic. You can only average 46 mph in Argyll by staying on the A roads. Driving around on A roads for close on two hours at a pretty fair lick of a cruising speed (remember, that's an average, not a maximum speed) is not a recce. A recce goes up B and unclassified roads. It stops to examine gates. It drives off-road up forestry tracks to see if they're promising. It does not average 46 mph for nearly two hours.

Why are you giving so much credence to the police theory?
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:09 PM   #803
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"Why are you giving so much credence to the police theory?"

Gilroy would not know that he was caught passing the Doune/Tyndrum cctv.

When planning his route he is assuming the police could only pinpoint him when he has his mobile phone on.

Nyadd to Inveraray

Gilroy thinks the police would have to consider that he drove either the southern route (starting from the A811) or the northern route (starting from the A84) to get from Nyadd to Inveraray.

This is his best option - keep the search area as large as possible.

Inveraray to Edinburgh

Gilroy thinks the police would have to consider that he drove either the southern route (starting from the A83) or northern route (starting from the A819) to get from Inveraray to Edinburgh.

If he had kept his phone off until he got to Edinburgh Gilroy would know that the police would look for evidence on both the southern route (starting from the A83 from Inveraray) and the northern route (starting from the A819 from Inveraray)

This is his best option - keep the phone off and make the search area as large as possible.

But he wants to show the police that when he left Inveraray he took the A819 not the A83.

He turns his phone on at Inveruglas.

1 - Gilroy now thinks that the police would only search on the A819, A85 and A82 as he must have driven this route to get to Inveruglas. He hopes the police would rule out that he was on the A83.

2 - He also thinks that if the police were to consider he was at Ardgartan the sensible route to Edinburgh is to go east to Tarbet. He hopes the police would rule out that he was on the A83.

3 - He also thinks that if the police were to consider he went to Ardgartan and doubled back to the A819 then this would have used up the majority of the time he has for disposal. He hopes the police would rule out that he was on the A83.

If he had kept his phone off between Inveraray and Edinburgh then he could just have told the police he went from Inveraray to Tyndrum to Crianlarich to Inveruglas to Tarbet to Balloch and on to Edinburgh.

He turns his phone on at Inveruglas to try to reinforce the fact that he drove from Inveraray to Tyndrum to Crianlarich to Inveruglas to Tarbet and therefore he did not drive from Inveraray to Tarbet on the A83.

He used diversionary tactics to misdirect the police search when there was a better option - keep the phone off and make the search area as large as possible.

There was no need for him to go to Inveruglas and turn his phone on - unless he used this as a diversionary tactic.

If this was a diversionary tactic then he is attempting to divert attention from one area (the A83) to another (the A819/A85/A82)

The police saw through this attempted misdirection and the search was made on the A83 - the only area Gilroy tried to distance himself from.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 16th January 2020 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 17th January 2020, 11:50 AM   #804
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. If he wanted the police to know that he returned by the northern route he had absolutely no need whateoever to take the A82 detour on the way back. All he had to do was keep driving and switch the phone on at some point after passing through Crianlarich. If he was trying to signal that he had not driven the A83 from Inveraray to Tarbet, that would have been not merely an adequate way to do that, but a foolproof way.

In contrast, taking the A82 diversion through Tarbet, and not switching the phone on until a few minutes before reaching Tarbet, is far from foolproof. First, it risks the possibility that the phone won't actually ping a mast north of Tarbet at all, with the first ping being to a mast that would be compatible with his having come from Inveraray via Ardgartan. There's no way he would have known about a camera at Ardgartan, so relying on the phone, at Inveruglas, pinging a mast that would definitely place him north of Tarbet on the A82, is absolutely nuts. Phone mast connectivity in rural Argyll is known to be pretty hit and miss. Compared to simply driving on through Crianlarich on the A85 then switching it on a maybe 20 minutes later. What he did certainly did not distance himself from the Ardgartan region, quite the opposite. The detour took him within a mile or two of Ardgartan, and absolutely incurred a huge risk of his being assumed to have driven through Ardgartan, when simply driving on wouldn't have shown him anywhere near the place.

Second, it risks the cops having a perfectly reasonable theory which would place him in the Rest and Be Thankful area. Given only the phone-mast trace of his journey, the cops would have been nuts not to immediately suspect that he came from Inveraray via the A83, taking nearly two hours more than he should have taken, then when he reached Tarbet he turned north, drove to Ardlui or thereabouts, then turned around and switched his phone on as he drove south on the A82 back towards Tarbet.

So no, not buying that at all.

If he wanted absolutely maximum uncertainty, he wouldn't have connected at all between Inveraray and Stirling, either way. If he wanted to hint that the northern route was the one to look at, then he'd have switched on before Stirling on the way back - maybe by Callander. There's no rationale that way for taking the A82 detour.

The whole idea that he left the body near Ardgartan, but drove an astonishing detour both ways is in my opinion fatally bonkers. Not only does he waste a humungous amount of time simply driving, on top of the time needed to get off the main road and to the disposal site, he takes a huge risk that his car will be identified miles away from any rational route from Edinburgh to Lochgilphead.

Either the Tyndrum route or the Ardgartan route is a rational way to get from here to there. Both routes is not. He can't possibly guarantee his car won't somehow be identified even when the phone is switched off. If the car is identified both at Tyndrum and at Ardgartan (or the R&BT) on the same leg of the journey, his behaviour is going to be almost impossible to explain. The rational way to play this, and Gilroy was nothing if not rational, is to get off your core route on to a very minor, unfrequented road as quickly as possible.

The cops think they do have evidence of him in both places on at least one leg of the journey - the Tyndrum CCTV sighting, and their purported sighting of the silver car (with Gilroy himself allegedly having been seen by an eyewitness) around the R&BT, I'm not sure of the timing of that. They certainly think he was in the R&BT area both times, doing nothing but reconnaisance in the afternoon and then driving back there on the way back to dump the body, taking only about 20 minutes to do that.

I think this is bonkers, for all the reasons I keep saying. You seem to be trying to persuade me it's not bonkers, but I'm not buying it. It's still bonkers.

I think the silver car and the alleged eye-witness sighting are coincidence. Nobody got the number of this silver car and nobody saw Gilroy who actually knew him by sight. Only someone who saw a man he thought looked very like his (own) brother-in-law, and Gilroy did indeed look like this man's brother-in-law. I think this coincidence has misled the police.

These things happen with startling frequency. I discovered another one last month when I was reading a book about the Stefan Kiszko case. One of the pieces of evidence against Stefan was that he had a particular car number written on a scrap of paper in his car. He was apparently in the habit of writing down the numbers of cars whose drivers had done something to annoy him. He couldn't remember why he had written that number down, but he thought it was something to do with an encounter in the car park at his office. Or some car park. Maybe. Probably.

The police traced the car, and questioned the owner about his movements. He had never used a car park that Stefan might have used, but he had driven the isolated moor road near which Lesley Moleseed's body was found, at about the assumed time of the murder. The scribbled number was taken to be probable evidence that Stefan had seen the car on that road at that time, and so had been at the scene of the crime. (Although why he would have written the number down in these circumstances wasn't clear.)

Stefan Kiszko was proved to be innocent of the murder on completely separate grounds, firstly by the semen found on Lesley's underwear definitely not being his (and the real murderer was later identified and convicted on the basis of a DNA match to that semen), and secondly by re-investigation of his movements confirming the alibi he had always presented. The police looked further into the question of the car number note. The owner who had been questioned had only had the car for a few months, having bought it second-hand. The previous owner was traced, and although he had no memory (over 16 years later!) of having had any altercation with anyone in the car park, he had been a regular user of the car park Stefan used when he was at work.

Hanging your hat too tightly on a sighting that could well be a coincidence is not a good idea.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 17th January 2020 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 18th January 2020, 02:39 PM   #805
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"In contrast, taking the A82 diversion through Tarbet, and not switching the phone on until a few minutes before reaching Tarbet, is far from foolproof."

It is possible he turned his phone just after he turned right at Crianlarich onto the A82 and if his phone was not in range of any mast northwest or northeast of Crianlarich his phone would only connect to the mast at Inveruglas/Ben Vorlich as he drives south on the A82 and gets within its range.

He would not know if his phone would connect to any masts on the A82 (or even if there were any masts) but if he turned his phone on after passing Crianlarich his phone would show its signal strength on the screen.

As long as his phone showed it was receiving a signal somewhere on the A82 and this happened before he got to Tarbet then he knows that the police would find out that he had turned right at Crianlarich.

"There's no way he would have known about a camera at Ardgartan"

Imagine if he did go to Ardgartan and then continued on to Tarbet, went to Ardlui, u-turned then turned his phone on at Inveruglas and drove towards Tarbet.

Then he tells the police he went from Inveraray on the A819/A85/A82 to Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas/Tarbet.

He knows the police would look for cctv on the A819/A85/A82 Inveraray/Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas route just to confirm.

He also knows that if the the police find cctv on the A819/A85/A82 Inveraray/Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas route (which they did) and he does not pass this cctv then the police would know he did not take the A819/A85/A82 Inveraray/Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas route and he must have taken the A83 from Inveraray to Tarbet.

He also knows that the police would look for cctv on the A83 just incase he is lying (when he told the police he went from Inveraray on the A819/A85/A82 to Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas/Tarbet.)

If he has went from Inveraray to Ardgartan and continued on to Tarbet, went to Ardlui, u-turned, turned his phone on at Inveruglas and then if/when the police find cctv on the A83 and he is seen on this cctv then the police will know he did not take the A819/A85/A82 Inveraray/Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas route and he must have taken the A83 from Inveraray to Tarbet.

If the disposal site is in Ardgartan and he wants to ensure he wont get caught out by cctv evidence (or lack of cctv evidence) then the only way he can ensure he doesnt get caught out by cctv is to double back from Ardgartan to Inveraray and take the A819/A85/A82 Inveraray/Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas route.(which I think he did)

By doing this he wont get caught on any cctv between Ardgartan and Tarbet but he will get caught on any cctv between Inveraray/Dalmally/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas.

If there was no cctv available on both routes, his plan to prevent the police from thinking he took the A83 from Inveraray to Tarbet was to turn his phone on between Crianlarich and Inveruglas which indicates he has just driven from Crianlarich to Tarbet and not driven from Ardgartan to Tarbet.

If he had not turned his phone on whilst on the A82 between Crianlarich and Inveruglas and there was no cctv on both routes then the police would search both routes (and appeal for witnesses on both routes)

By turning his phone on between Crianlarich and Inveruglas he is showing the police he took the northern route to get to Inveruglas and did not take the southern route in order to get the police to rule out a search on the A83.

By diverting attention away from the A83 this indicates he wants the police to look elsewhere and the only reason for this is that there is something somewhere off the A83 that he does not want the police to find.

His journey from Crianlarich to Tarbet was an overexplained unnecessary attempt to show that he did not leave Inveraray and go on to the A83 to Ardgartan, dispose of the body then continue east to Tarbet/Inveruglas.

He tried his best to get the police to believe he was not on the A83 (it was a clever plan albeit a bit too clever) and it might have worked but for the witness, the SIO's instincts and his suspicious right turn at Crianlarich.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 18th January 2020 at 04:34 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 20th January 2020, 07:27 AM   #806
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Sigh. We know what he did. What advantage to him was it to turn right in Crianlarich and go down the A82 as opposed to driving straight on an turning his phone on while he was on the A84?
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Old 20th January 2020, 03:01 PM   #807
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Gilroy turned his phone on when he was on the A82 driving south from Crianlarich to Inveruglas then continued south to Tarbet.

The police now know that he took the A82 to get to Tarbet.

The police also know that he did not drive the complete route of the A83 between Inveraray and Tarbet.

Gilroy thinks that if the police know he did not drive on the A83 to get to Tarbet then they would rule out that he was at Ardgartan because if he was at Ardgartan it would be quicker to continue east to Tarbet and he did not do this.

When he is asked if he had gone from Inveraray to Ardgartan and doubled back to Inveraray he can say "If I had went to Ardgartan I would have continued east past Arrochar to get to Tarbet but you know I got to Tarbet via the A82"

If he turned his phone on anywhere else (including between Tyndrum and Crianlarich or east of Crianlarich on the A85/A84) and when he is asked if he had gone from Inveraray to Ardgartan and doubled back to Inveraray he can only answer "no"

Gilroy hopes that telling the police "If I had went to Ardgartan I would have continued east past Arrochar to get to Tarbet but you know I got to Tarbet via the A82" sounds more persuasive than just "no"

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Old 20th January 2020, 03:13 PM   #808
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Not buying that. If he hasn't been seen anywhere near Ardgartan he's quids in. Taking a bizarre detour that takes him within about a mile of Ardgartan and actually flagging that up is nuts.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:09 PM   #809
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Ardgartan to Tarbet going east is 4.5 miles and 67.6 miles going the long way (back to the A819/A85/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Inveruglas/Tarbet)

The long way is a bizarre detour but turning right at Crianlarich and turning his phone on was his only chance to show he had not driven from Inveraray to Tarbet on the A83 and this detour also avoids potentially getting caught by cctv if he had driven between Ardgartan and Tarbet on the A83.

There is no other reason to turn right at Crianlarich.

However, the police did not think that the right turn at Crianlarich was significant.

https://www.bailii.org/scot/cases/Sc...13HCJAC18.html

"he seems to have taken an unusual route down the west side of Loch Lomond and then across to Stirling"

The police were more interested in the witness sighting and Gilroys overreaction when the police suggested that he had went on to the A83 when he left Inveraray.

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Old 6th February 2020, 07:15 AM   #810
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Sigh. Not only was that not "his only chance" to show that he hadn't been in the R&BT area, it wasn't even a smart move if that was his intention.

He could very easily have turned the phone on between Tyndrum and Crianlarich, say, and just driven straight back to Edinburgh. That would flag up a route that wouldn't suggest the R&BT in the slightest. Conversely, detouring to pass within about five miles of the R&BT and trusting to luck that his phone picked up a signal before Tarbet is certifiably insane if that was his objective.

Supposing he hadn't been picked up on the Green Welly camera on the way back, and everything else happened as it did. PC Plod would have had to have been pretty plodding not to look at that phone trace and suspect that he had come over the R&BT, turned left at Tarbet, driven to Ardlui, turned around and turned his phone on as he drove back to Tarbet. It's the Green Welly camera that shows he came by Tyndrum, not that mast-ping at Inveruglas.
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:42 AM   #811
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Turning his phone on between Crianlarich and Inveruglas (or at Inveruglas) and driving south towards Tarbet shows that he has just driven from Inveraray to Dalmally to Tyndrum to Crianlarich, turned right and drove on the A82 to Inveruglas.

To get the same result he could have turned his phone on between Tyndrum and Crianlarich, kept it on and turned right at Crianlarich going south on to the A82.

When he turns his phone on the police would still want to know where he had spent the missing 94 minutes prior to passing Tyndrum.

One option is that he spent the missing 94 minutes somewhere close to his core route off the A819 or A85 as he has to drive on the A819 and A85 to get to Tyndrum.

Gilroy tells the police he went directly on to the A819 from Inveraray and says he stopped for 94 minutes on the A819/A85 to check his car/go for a sleep/have something to eat.

Gilroy knows that the police will accept that he did drive on the A819 and A85 to get to Tyndrum (at some point that night) but the police will not believe that he stopped for 94 minutes to check his car/go for a sleep/have something to eat.

The police will think Gilroy spent the 94 minutes driving to the disposal site, completing the body disposal and getting back to A819/A85.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assume Gilroy did go from Inveraray to Ardgartan and then back to the junction of the A83/A819 at Inveraray then onto the A819/A85 to Tyndrum.

He would not want the police to search the A83.

If he turns his phone on between Tyndrum and Crianlarich (or east of Crianlarich) he hopes the police would concentrate on the A819/A85 as he has just driven on the A819/A85 to get to Tyndrum.

It's a good plan but it could be better.

When someone leaves Inveraray and their eventual destination is Tarbet then the obvious route to take is the shorter and quicker route, the A83.

If Gilroy can show that he took the longer route to get from Inveraray to Tarbet then he thinks the police will search on the longer route.

If Gilroy can show that he did not drive on the shorter route (the A83) to get from Inveraray to Tarbet then he thinks the police will not search on the shorter route.

If he turns his phone on (and keeps it on) anywhere between Tyndrum and Inveruglas then the police will know that he is on his way to Tarbet and he did not get to Tarbet via the A83.

Gilroy assumes that because he has shown that he did not go from Inveraray to Tarbet via the A83 then the police would not search anywhere on the A83.

It is possible that he did turn his phone on prior to arriving at Inveruglas and the phone connected to the Ben Vorlich mast when he was approaching Inveruglas.

If his phone did not connect to the Ben Vorlich mast and for some reason connected to a mast near Arrochar then the phone expert would still have been able to confirm that he was on the A82 and not on the A83 when his phone connected to the Arrochar mast.

The phone expert would use mobile phone triangulation to pinpoint where Gilroy is when he turns his phone on.

"PC Plod would have had to have been pretty plodding not to look at that phone trace and suspect that he had come over the R&BT, turned left at Tarbet, driven to Ardlui, turned around and turned his phone on as he drove back to Tarbet."

This is too risky, if he had been caught on cctv doing this the police would know he has been on the A83.

If he was expected to pass cctv (at the Green Welly for instance) and did not pass this cctv then the police would know he initially got to Tarbet via the A83.

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Old 27th October 2020, 01:46 PM   #812
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Robbie Coltrane - Critical evidence series 2 episode eight - observations.

From 19/7/2018

1 - Gilroy arrived at the door of Corstorphine police station at 23.26 (11.26pm) 26 minutes past eleven at night.

21.34 to 23.25 (assume one minute to walk from Tesco car park) is 1 hour and 51 minutes (111 minutes) which Google maps confirms is the time it takes from Ardlui to the Tesco car park

It should have taken him 18 minutes to get from The Green Welly, Tyndrum to Ardlui but it took him from 21.08 to 21.34 = 26 minutes = 8 minutes extra

2 - Gilroy went To Lochgilphead 30 times in the previous year up to May 2010 and always took the route which passes the Rest and be thankful.

3 - Looks like he owned a Nokia E71 (released in June 2008)

4 - CCTV from The Green Welly captures a full head on view of his car (at 13.23)

5 - Rather than taking 36 minutes it took Gilroy 2 hours and 29 minutes (1 hour and 53 minutes extra = 113 minutes) to get from The Green Welly, Tyndrum to The Royal Burgh Cafe, Inveraray

6 - Rather than taking 36 minutes it took Gilroy 2 hours and 9 minutes (1 hour and 33 minutes extra = 93 minutes) to get from The Royal Burgh Cafe, Inveraray to The Green Welly Tyndrum

7 - The 124 miles - the police made the assumption that Gilroy completely filled his tank on Wednesday morning 5th May 2010 but this may not be the case and also when the police calculated there was excess fuel used did they assume that the tank was 100% full ?

Gilroys car, a 2005 Vectra SRI CDTI 8V diesel has a fuel tank capacity of 61 litres. If he fills up at Queensferry Road, Edinburgh on Wednesday 5th May 2010, the garage fuel pump will cut off when the pump nozzle registers that the fuel is near to the nozzle but there is capacity for more diesel in the neck of the fuel tank.

If the police are calculating that Gilroy drove 124 miles extra based on him having 61 litres in the fuel tank when he has less than 61 litres in the tank then the 124 miles is an overestimation of the excess mileage covered.

If a car gets 45mpg then one gallon gets you 45 miles or 10 miles per litre and if Gilroy only filled up to 59 litres with him able to put 2 litres in the neck of the tank then he has covered an excess of 104 miles or if he filled up to 58 litres then he has covered an excess of 94 miles.

8 - The car exhaust has a large scrape on it, the splash shield/engine tray has multiple scrapes on it, the front wings have scrapes on them and grass was found on the underside.

9 - Then this bombshell

"Despite extensive scientific tests the police could not isolate exactly where the vegetation on the car had come from"

The soil, vegetation and grass found on Gilroys car is not specific to The Rest and be thankful/Ben Donich/Glen Croe area so the police are putting a lot of faith in the witness sighting.

Searching for soils which are specific to The Rest and be thankful area (including Ardgartan/Glen Croe, Ben Donich, the B828, Lochgoilhead and Hells Glen/B839) seems pointless and in reality the soils, vegetation, foliage and grass around this area can be found elsewhere.

This is contradicted here

Detective Superintendent Stuart Houston continues to lead the inquiry to find Suzanne “....The gaps in Gilroy’s journey, and the foliage and debris on his car tell us that he went off road somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful."

The police have no proof that "the foliage and debris on his car tell us that he went off road somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful."

There is no scientific evidence for this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Case for the Rest and be thankful area as the disposal site

Nothing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Case against the Rest and be thankful area as the disposal site

No scientific evidence that the foliage, vegetation, grass and other debris on Gilroys car came from there
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open to interpretation

Gilroy went to Lochgilphead 30 times in the previous year up to May 2010 and always took the route which passes the Rest and be thankful.

The right turn at Crianlarich to show that he did not drive on the A83 to get to Tarbet (or the right turn at Crianlarich could be for another unknown reason or for no reason at all)

The scratches on his hands.

The excess amount of fuel used

The "witness"

The SIO instincts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The statement that “....debris on his car tells us that he went off road somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful." is not actually true and there is no evidence to support this.

Did the police decide that the disposal site must be Rest and Be Thankful based on the "witness" sighting and the SIO's instincts then double down on this ?

The police advise that the disposal site must be somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful and they confirm they have based this on actual evidence based on "the debris on his car" (and spend a lot of time and money searching there)

The public are going to focus on that but this evidence does not actually exist.

On the face of it, it does look like Gilroy was trying to distance himself from the Rest and be thankful area which indicates that this is the disposal site but the lack of scientific evidence relating to the soil, vegetation, foliage, grass and debris and the other information which is open to interpretation indicates that the police are no nearer to finding concrete evidence of where the actual disposal site actually is than we were in 2015 (when this thread started albeit this thread was not originally about finding the disposal site)

The misinformation given by the police that "debris on his car tells us that he went off road somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful." has influenced a lot of posts in this thread.

Not that I am going to admit defeat as yet.

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Old 29th October 2020, 12:25 PM   #813
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Just noticed this post. I've spoken to Stuart Houston about this. He's a lovely guy and I believe genuinely trying to find Suzanne but I think he's too wedded to a specific witness sighting and can't change his thinking to consider that actually his theory might be wrong and she might be somewhere else.

More later.
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Old 30th October 2020, 01:16 PM   #814
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Did his car collect debris from an ancient woodland ?

Gary Flannigan speaking from 39.15 on the video

"Our hope was that there would be something unusual about the Argyll forest, that there would be ancient woodlands there, unfortunately its commercial forest, its mundane, there nothing terribly unusual about it"

If the police found debris from an ancient woodland on Gilroy's car then the Argyll forest (coloured red) is not the place to search.

Argyll forest park.jpg

This pdf confirms that the Argyll forest does not have ancient woodland but there are 5 ancient woodlands near the route Gilroy took between Tyndrum and Inveraray

Allt Broighleachan - There is access to the ancient woodland before the track reaches the deer fence.

Allt Broighleachan bench forest fence.jpg

Allt Coire Bhiochair - no vehicular access

Doire Deach - no vehicular access

Glean Fuar - no vehicular access

Glen Strae - possible access via forestry track to get to the ancient woodland

Zoom in on the map here to see exact locations of the ancient woodlands.

Allt Broighleachan would be the number one choice with Glen Strae a distant second choice assuming that the debris on Gilroys car can be matched to debris found in an ancient woodland.

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Old 30th October 2020, 04:29 PM   #815
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You can't get a car as far as the actual ancient woodland on the Allt Broighleachan track. But it's close and depending on the nature of the material on the car I suppose transference would be possible. (It's surprising how much of the Caledonian Forest is still there in small clumps. I was riding through chunks of it in Roxburghshire during the common ridings last summer.)

I'm interested that Gilroy habitually took the R&BT route when he went to Lochgilphead. It's six and half a dozen with the Tyndrum route and frankly I'd take the Tyndrum route from Edinburgh because the roads are better and you probably won't suddenly find half a mountain landing on you. But I suspect the R&BT route is the instinctive one for a lot of people.

This convinces me even more that he was hoping an investigation would assume that he took the R&BT route on this occasion, while taking advantage of the existence of the Tyndrum route to get himself quite a long way from the R&BT. I think he succeeded in his plan, but by accident. Despite it being actually impossible to keep his real route secret the police still assumed he'd somehow got into the R&BT region to dispose of the body and seem to have paid scant attention to the Tyndrum area.

I think he wasn't expecting an investigation to be on his tail for as much as a week or two after the event, when he could obfuscate and allow police to assume he'd gone the R&BT route, but when he was asked to go to the police station that very evening he would have realised he had to come clean about his route because he didn't know what evidence they'd be able to find. If he'd said he went via Arrochar and then they had CCTV footage of him at Tyndrum (as they indeed later acquired) he'd have been in even bigger trouble.

(I haven't watched the programme yet. Hopefully soon. Tell the Met to stop giving me a new opera every night to curl up and watch.)
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Old 16th November 2020, 02:47 PM   #816
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Gilroy turned his phone on at 21.34 near Inveruglas.

If he has the intention of turning his phone on at Tarbet (in order to fool the police to thinking he took the A83 from Inveraray to Tarbet) and he mistakenly thinks he was at Tarbet at 21.34 he could not tell the police he went from Inveraray to Tarbet on the A83 as he runs the risk that cctv catches him on the Inveraray/Tyndrum/Crianlarich/Tarbet route (which it did) and cctv that he would have passed on the A83 (for example at Arrochar) does not see him pass.

If Gilroy had turned his phone on at Tarbet

Police - Which way did you go from Inveraray ?

Gilroy (lying) - I took the A83 from Inveraray to Tarbet and switched my phone on at Tarbet

Some days later the police find cctv from The Green Welly, Tyndrum.

Police - You did not go from Inveraray to Tarbet on the A83, we have proof, you have the right to remain silent .................

So turning his phone on near Inveruglas at 21.34 has nothing to do with Gilroy trying to show the police which route he did or did not take from Inveraray to Edinburgh.

Gilroy left Lochgilphead school 17.58 and it took him until 18.58 to get to The Royal Burgh cafe, Inveraray. It should take 34 minutes - it took him 60 minutes = 26 minutes extra, who knows why it took him so long.

A - Leaving Lochgilphead school at 17.58 and driving the A83/A811/M9 route to Edinburgh takes 2 hours 46 minutes, he should have arrived at Corstorphine police station, Edinburgh at 20.44

B - Leaving Lochgilphead school at 17.58 and driving the A819/A85/A84/M9 route to Edinburgh takes 3 hours and 9 minutes, he should have arrived at Corstorphine police station at 21.07.

C- Leaving Lochgilphead school at 17.58 and driving the route he actually took to Edinburgh takes 3 hours and 20 minutes, he should have arrived at Corstorphine police station at 21.18.

But he arrived at Corstorphine police station at 23.26

Gilroys normal route would be route A and if he had taken that route he was due to arrive at Corstorphine police station. Edinburgh at about 20.44 if he drove nonstop, but he was late.

"[12] In the late evening of Wednesday, 5 May, the police were, as already noted, keen to speak to the appellant. They were expecting him to call at Corstorphine police station at about 9.30 pm on his return from Lochgilphead."

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search...0-ff0000d74aa7

If he takes route A he arrives at Corstophine police station at 20.44, route B 21.07 and route C 21.18. I expect the police were giving him a bit of leeway so about 21.30 was about right.

Gilroy would have preferred to take the A83 route to Edinburgh (as he had done numerous times in the past year) but as it was imperative for him to drive towards Tyndrum (I now think the disposal site is near Tyndrum) he has to bypass his favourite A83 route but then he wants to drive his favourite route from Tyndrum so he turns right at Crianlarich and from Tarbet he knows the route to Edinburgh like the back of his hand.

The simple explanation is that when he gets to Crianlarich he turns right as he prefers the A83 route rather than the A84 route to Edinburgh and realising that he should have been in Corstorphine police station at about 21.30 he turns his phone on near Inveruglas at 21.34 as he wants to check if the police have phoned him yet to see where he is.

This also means that, if the disposal was made in the evening, it is more likely that the disposal site is nearer Tyndrum than the R&BT.

After passing Inveraray at 18.58 he should have reached the bridge at Allt Broighleachan 37 minutes later at 19.35 and taking into account the following

1 - The police could not isolate exactly where the vegetation on the car had come from

2 - The witness, if the witness was correct, saw him in the afternoon at the R&BT but (as far as we are aware) there was no witness sighting in the evening

3 - There was no point in Gilroy trying to show the police which way he had got to Tarbet (whether via the A83 or via A819/A85/A82) because if he lied about the route then he knows it could be proven he was lying and the implications of that would be immense.

4 -The terrain of the Allt Broighleachan track would cause the suspension damage

5 - At 19.35 any visitors to the at Allt Broighleachan track would have gone home

The track at Allt Broighleachan needs to be searched by the police

Video from 20/5/2019 at the Allt Broighleachan track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCR_0eS9mZQ

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Old 18th February 2021, 01:15 PM   #817
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I've been round this every which way and I can't see any way at all that Gilroy leaving the body anywhere between Arrochar and Inveraray makes a lick of sense.

But I'm actually bumping the thread with a slight derail. Body found near farm confirmed as missing cyclist Tony Parsons. Mr Parsons was doing a charity bike ride on 29th September 2017. A section of his route happened to coincide with that of the charity bike ride I did on 20th (I think) 2019 as part of the Peloton for Murdered Woman. We chose to ride the triangle from Tyndrum to the B8074 junction, up the B8074 to Bridge of Orchy and back to Tyndrum by the A82. This is the triangle I think holds the key to the whereabouts of Suzanne's body, and we dedicated our ride to murdered women whose bodies have never been found.

I was slightly dubious about the last stretch on the A82 as it's uphill for four miles and the road is fast, and I was worried about the traffic and the possibility of an accident. I had proposed taking the West Highland Way instead. However we were running late because of a puncture and Caroline said the main road would be faster and she was right. It was still fairly good daylight, before 7 pm, and we put on our high-viz jackets and discovered that the gradient was rideable. We made it to Tyndrum in good order.

The irony is that there was indeed a concealed body lying near our route at the time, that of Mr Parsons the missing cyclist. Two years earlier he had left Bridge of Orchy much later than we did (11.30) in the pitch dark, and vanished without trace some little way down the road. His body was discovered last month near to Aust Farm, and the pictures of the police operation show their van parked in the entrance to the Aust farm track.

My theory? He met the mishap I had feared might happen to us. In the dark a car has come speeding up behind him and the driver has hit him almost before he saw him. The driver has stopped and got out to see what happened and discovered that he has killed a cyclist. Rather than report this to the police, at the very serious risk of being convicted of dangerous driving, he has managed somehow to get the body away from the road and conceal it, before driving away to cover up the damage to his car. I don't know if the bike has been found, I suppose the driver might have picked that up to dispose of it elsewhere.

Just a coincidence of geography. It took over three years to find that body, but in the end it was indeed stumbled on by accident. I wonder how well Gilroy concealed Suzanne's body that it still hasn't surfaced after almost 11 years?
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Old 21st February 2021, 04:25 PM   #818
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There is info on Reddit about this.

Also this from Police Scotland

Usually contempt of court proceedings are brought because someone is accused of an act or omission calculated to interfere with the administration of justice.

Time will tell if Tony Parsons was indeed stumbled on by accident or was found due to another reason.

The police must have searched along the routes that Tony Parsons would have taken from Bridge of Orchy to Tyndrum (the A82 all the way to Tyndrum and the A82 to the Auch estate onto the West Highland way then to Tyndrum.) yet the police still did not find him during their searches.

The police spent a few days looking for Suzanne (probably in the wrong places) and the Tony Parsons case shows just how difficult it is to find a body concealed in the countryside.

For Suzanne, there will be no more new information identifying her location so it looks like the only way she will be found is if she is indeed stumbled on by accident.

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Old 21st February 2021, 06:18 PM   #819
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Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Two men. That makes better sense. Stuart Houston said that a single murderer never manages to get a body more than 100 yards from the road but they searched to 200 yards for Suzanne just in case. I think Mr Parsons must have been more than 100 yards from the A82 from these reports.

I assumed the "stumbled upon by accident" part but the possibility that someone cracked also makes better sense. I remember Little Swan saying once that when someone disposes of a body in an underhand and gruesome manner they crack more often than not, and tell someone. Is concealing the body of an accident victim covered under contempt of court? I suppose it might be.

I think if I'd known all that in 2019 I'd have insisted on cycling the West Highland Way and dragged the girls with me! Puncture or not. But actually it didn't feel particularly unsafe. The sun was just going down behind the hills to the west and we were cycling more in shadow than in sunlight (the West Highland Way, on the other side of the glen, was still in sunlight), but the visibility wasn't bad and because we weren't hurrying we were able to watch out for the traffic. Six hours later would have been a different matter.

I did nearly post that if I were the cops I'd be trying to find out who had been drinking in the Bridge of Orchy Hotel that evening.

What a tragedy. But Gilroy is a very different kettle of fish and he's certainly not going to crack.
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Old 21st February 2021, 07:08 PM   #820
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Purely speculation - but you may be right !

"I did nearly post that if I were the cops I'd be trying to find out who had been drinking in the Bridge of Orchy Hotel that evening."

"A big white police incident tent has been set up between the estate house and the smaller house"


At this location


The police would usually set up the incident tent in the location where the remains were found.

Some people, especially in rural locations, would risk driving back to their home/accommodation from the local pub, which could be a few miles away, whilst over the drink drive limit as, in their opinion, there is little chance of being stopped by the police.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But Gilroy is a very different kettle of fish and he's certainly not going to crack."

Just like the Ian Simms/Helen McCourt case.

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Old 22nd February 2021, 08:08 AM   #821
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The similarity between the Suzanne Pilley case and the Helen McCourt case is positively spooky. In fact for the bike ride I wore a badge with Suzanne's name and picture and details of who killed her and when, and I made a similar one for Helen and one of the other girls on the ride wore that one.

This business of Mr Parsons is becoming more relevant than I originally realised. If his body was there for over three years, despite searching, when it was known that he had vanished just a few miles south of Bridge of Orchy, it really does highlight the extreme difficulty of finding a body in that landscape. Although the Aust track was one of the ones I listed when I went through all the possibilities I discounted it as being a bit too open.

Of course we have to bear in mind that when the two drunkards (presumably) managed to conceal Tony Parsons's body it was the middle of the night and would have been pitch dark, while Suzanne's body was hidden in the middle of the afternoon. My main thought always was that Gilroy would have chosen somewhere secluded from public view because of the daylight. But he might just have got lucky I suppose.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 03:18 PM   #822
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Assuming that Gilroy went twice (initially in the afternoon then he came back in the evening to complete the job) to the Allt Broighleachan bench area for disposal then

My calculations are that the disposal timings were :

First - between 13.52 to 15.10 (78 minutes)

Second - between 19.39 to 20.38 (59 minutes)

The first disposal is mid afternoon and very risky, the evening disposal not so much.

Gilroy, whilst at Lochgilphead School, did advise the police that there was something wrong with his car. If this is true (and the disposal site is near the bench on the Allt Broighleachan track) then the damage occurred on route to the disposal site.

Probably here

Approach.jpg

Suspension damage.jpg

Driving on the Allt Broighleachan track is risky in the afternoon as there could be hikers walking the route when he drives to the bench but maybe he got lucky.

If he had to return to the bench area to complete the disposal in the evening then he risks damaging his car even more and even making his car undriveable but he maybe took it slower and was more careful second time around.

Here are the potential disposal sites near the bench.

Bench.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
13.22 Passes CCTV at the Green Welly, Tyndrum

Drive for 30 minutes

13.52 Arrives at the bench on the Allt Broighleachan track

13.52 to 15.10 First disposal 78 minutes

15.10 Leave the Allt Broighleachan bench

Drive for 41 minutes

15.51 Arrives at the Royal Burgh cafe, Inveraray

------------------------------------------------------

18.58 Passes CCTV at Royal Burgh cafe, Inveraray

Drive for 41 minutes

19.39 Arrives at the bench on the Allt Broighleachan track

19.39 to 20.38 Second disposal 59 minutes

Drive for 30 minutes

21.08 Arrives at The Green Welly, Tyndrum

----------------------------------------------------

Out of all the possible routes to potential disposal sites that Gilroy had access to, the Allt Broighleachan track is the only track which could have caused so much damage to his car.

If we concentrate on that then all other possible disposal sites become insignificant.

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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:10 PM   #823
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I think so. The other tracks I've looked at are actually too rough, he'd have been insane to have tried them. I've walked up the Altnafalnich track (twice), leaving my car at the gate, and there is no way on God's green earth I'd take a saloon car up that. I'd think twice about taking a Landrover up it. His car was his life right then. If he ditched it or rendered it undriveable, he was toast. He knew that.

In contrast the Allt Broighleachan track is definitely doable. I've cycled up it, and I slightly regret not going for it and taking my car. (There is now a new, locked barrier at the road but it happened to be open that day.) In 2010 there was no barrier at all at the old bridge, just a sign saying it wasn't a public road. We're looking for something that wouldn't have put him right off trying it, but rough enough that it did damage his car a bit. Allt Broighleachan ticks the boxes.

He might have come across a hiker, but I think his chances were good. It was a Wednesday afternoon, a working day, a school day, and only two days after a bank holiday weekend. It was dull and overcast. The start of that track, in those days, wasn't particularly inviting, being gloomy and hemmed in by commercial conifer forest. There was no ongoing forestry work. When I went, I think it was a Tuesday and a lovely sunny day, I saw one hiker and she didn't go on to the picnic place, she turned right on to the track towards Bridge of Orchy. This was nine years after Gilroy's journey, and the Highlands have got a lot busier in that time.

In any case, Gilroy had a dilemma. He had to go somewhere that would probably be deserted. He couldn't risk heaving a dead body out of the boot of his car when it was parked beside a public road. The chance of being seen by a passing car would just have been too great. If he'd tried to dig a grave within sight of a road he'd have been asking to be spotted, and if he just dumped her there was a high probability she'd be found. He couldn't afford for her to be found anywhere near the route he took that afternoon, not ever.

But as soon as he drives off a public road on to a forestry track, he's conspicuous. If he was in a green Landrover with "Forestry Commission" on the side, well that's one thing, but a silver saloon car is going to be remarked on. Nevertheless it's a chance he had to take. I think the chance on the Allt Broighleachan track was actually pretty good.

I do not know why he had to make two visits, but I have a suspicion. I don't think he would have wasted an hour and a half on the way out and then gone on to Lochgilphead with the body still in his car (although Stuart Houston thinks that's exactly what he did). But consider. On the way out, he had no real idea the police were going to be so hot on his trail. Suzanne wasn't a vulnerable person, she just hadn't come into work two days running. The police don't usually get agitated at that point. It was only because her parents intervened and pointed out how very out of character this was and how very suspicious the circumstances were, that they got on the case so early.

So on the way out I think he was expecting to have a few days at least before anyone might be wondering where he'd been on Wednesday afternoon. I don't think the possibility that he'd be asked to drive straight to the cop shop even entered his mind. I think a good look at his car when it was at Lochgilphead might have been very instructive, if anyone had done that, even if there was no body in it. Protective clothing? Something the body had been wrapped in? Gardening tools?

But while he was at Lochgilphead he discovered that the police were extremely interested indeed in what he'd been doing, and there was going to be no opportunity to clean the car and dispose of anything incriminating when he got back to Edinburgh. So I think he had to go somewhere to dispose of the stuff he couldn't afford for the police to see, before he got back.

I don't insist that he went all the way back up to the picnic place, although there would have been enough daylight. If he'd damaged his car there once, would he want to risk it all again? But his route suggests that he either went back to the same place, or to some place close by, on the way back.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:55 AM   #824
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It can be done

I walked the Allt Broighleachan track on Friday 17th July 2020 in the afternoon and took the pictures in post 822.

Upon arriving at the bridge just after noon and parking in the new parking area I noticed there was a car parked further up on the B8074 in the layby on the left and a campervan parked in the new parking area.

This parking area was not there in 2010 (parking area constructed in 2018/2019)

There were no other vehicles or people that I could see.

The parking area is in the first picture here

Whilst having lunch prior to my hike the car owner emerged from the riverside and drove off.

The campervan occupants did not leave the campervan and drove off 20 minutes later without visiting the falls or the bridge.

I was alone for 10 minutes.

A car then arrived and parked at the bridge entrance and two people got out, walked to the bridge, did not go any further on the forestry track leading to the Allt Broighleachan track, had a look for 5 minutes, returned to their car and drove off.

This happened twice more and on each occasion the car occupants did not venture past the bridge on to the forestry track leading to the Allt Broighleachan track.

I began my hike and looking back as I was crossing the bridge saw there were no vehicles and no people about.

I took the left fork from the forestry road on to the Allt Broighleachan track itself (fourth picture in the link above) and walked to the bench, spent an hour looking around and returned back to the bridge.

In all that time I did not see another person or vehicle.

There was a vehicle parked on the B8074 side of the bridge when I returned and a man crossing the bridge, we said hello as we passed on the bridge.

Looking back, he did cross the bridge, had a look at the wooden hut on the left just after the bridge, returned to his car and drove off.

I returned to the parking area and waited 30 minutes.

In these 30 minutes the same pattern emerged.

A vehicle would arrive, park near the bridge or in the parking area, the occupants would walk on to the bridge, have a look at the falls for 5 minutes then return to their vehicle and drive off.

These people were obviously tourists who wanted to see the falls and had no intention of walking all the way to the bench on the Allt Broighleachan track.

If Gilroy was able to time it right he could have parked near the bridge, waited for the right time, drove across the bridge onto the Allt Broighleachan track and on to the bench without being seen.

I walked across the bridge when it was deserted and I did not encounter anyone on the Allt Broighleachan track or during the hour I spent at the bench on a sunny day in July so it is more than likely Gilroy was not spotted on the way to or from the bench or whilst at the bench.

If he spends about an hour on the disposal (possibly twice) then he can do a good job of concealing the body.

When Gilroy drives back to the bridge after the disposal (after 15.10) it is more than likely he got to the bridge without being seen and even if he was spotted driving over the bridge on to the B8074 would a tourist think this was unusual or even remember ? Probably not.

The evening journey (if there was one) to the Allt Broighleachan bench would have been much easier to navigate without being spotted as it would be about 7.30 pm when he crossed the bridge on his way to the bench and the area would be deserted.

He just has to time the bridge crossings when there are no witnesses and be lucky enough not to meet any hikers on route to or from the disposal site, whilst he is parked near the bench and during the disposal

He needed some luck that day but he just might have got away with it.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 23rd February 2021 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 08:21 AM   #825
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That's exactly what I discovered. Some activity around the new bridge and people looking at the falls, but once you got above the junction where the new track comes in, nothing - apart from that solitary woman hiker who turned right towards Bridge of Orchy and didn't go on to the picnic place. I spent the entire afternoon up there, leaving my bike at the picnic place and going for a walk, and I saw nobody at all. On a glorious sunny May afternoon. (I think the day I did that was 14th May 2019.)

I think much of the present activity around the bridge is generated by the new car park and the clearing of the forest around there. I strongly suspect that activity around the bridge on a dull weekday afternoon in 2010 would have been minimal. I certainly think there would have been every opportunity to drive over the bridge and disappear up the track without being seen.

No matter what he did, he needed luck. All he could do was choose a course of action that seemed less risky than others. If he'd waited for a possibility with no significant risk at all he'd have had to have waited until after dark, and he had clearly decided he wasn't going to do that. To me, the Allt Broighleachan track seems probably to be the best he might have managed.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 02:22 PM   #826
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Going back asap

In 2010 the Allt Broighleachan track surroundings looked very different, as soon as you crossed the bridge you were out of sight of the main road, the B8074.

There was no forestry activity at that time.

Google earth from June 2010

June 2010.jpg

Google earth from April 2020

April 2020.jpg

This Geograph link shows a good view of the picnic bench area from 1st June 2010

This shows the three likely disposal sites on the above image.

ABC.jpg

When I was there in July 2020

I did not look in area A.

I ruled out area B as I didn't think Gilroy would have attempted to drive up the steep hill towards the ancient forest.

I had a quick look in area C near the river but it was very boggy and I did not have waterproof boots on.

When lockdown is lifted and I am able to I will go back and spend a few days thoroughly looking around the picnic bench area (in areas A.B and C)

This will most likely be May/June.

I have a campervan and I now have waterproof boots.

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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:37 PM   #827
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I had a look at A but the bank up into the commercial forest is quite high and steep to be lugging a dead body up, and if you do that then once you're in there again you have the problem of no undergrowth below the conifer monoculture in which to hide a body, and tree roots that would make digging impossible. I think if he did use that route he'd have had to dump the body and simply hope nobody came by and the area wasn't searched.

Now I appreciate that Stuart Houston thinks there was no digging and that he did indeed simply dump her body, but I have problems with that because he must have known that he couldn't afford for her to be found even by accident for the next 40 or even 50 years, or the presence of the body close to his route to Lochgilphead would in all probability be enough to convict him in conjunction with the rest of it. We know from what happened to Tony Parsons that dumping a body in that general area can indeed work but would he really have risked it, given that he had the opportunity to do a better job? (Tony Parsons's killers were in a different situation. As it was a random accident, all they had to do was conceal him long enough to get the hell out and get rid of any other evidence like a damaged car, and they'd have been very difficult to trace. Gilroy knew that as the ex-lover he was right at the top of the suspect list.)

I agree with you about the difficulty of getting a car up that steep and rough bit of track, but I investigated it anyway. There is a better place up by the deer fence where you could get a body in among the trees without dragging it up a steep embankment, and there's also a green glade, a small clearing in the trees, where I think you could dig. There's also a cracker of a suspension-smasher on that track, a ford that's worse than the one in the picture but which wouldn't be obviously dangerous if the depression was filled with water. So I don't wholly exclude it.

I had a damn good look at the area you've marked C, and around there, and took photos, and the main difficulty as you say would be digging if the hole was going to fill up with water as you dug. I was there on a dry day when it would have been possible.

There's nowhere that's perfect but there are several decent possibilities and it looks more promising than anywhere else in the general vicinity.

Do you want to meet up and explore together?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:39 PM   #828
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Here is the first post of the series in which I described what I did and saw on 14th May 2019.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12696230
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Old 23rd February 2021, 08:55 PM   #829
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The reasons I think the disposal was made after passing Tyndrum at 13.22 and before passing Inveraray at 15.51 are :

1 - Gilroy advised the police that "there was something wrong with his car" when he spoke to the police whilst he was at Lochgilphead School after 16.29

Therefore the damage to his car was done between 13.22 and 15.51.

2 - The Robbie Coltrane video from 38.40 minutes shows the substantial damage to his car.

This damage does not happen driving on main roads or on forestry track roads.

I have walked from the Ardgartan visitor centre to the road end past Coilessan and around the forestry tracks between the Ardgartan visitor centre and the R&BT viewpoint and there are potholes on the road but they can be avoided.

As Robbie says the damage to Gilroys car is critical evidence and if you were driving on forestry roads they are covered in stones with little vegetation on them.

There is also the fact that by driving for any length of time on a forestry road there is a good chance of bumping into a forestry vehicle.

To get that much damage on his car he has to go on to a track and there has to be a balance of being able to drive on this track without getting stuck and the track being in such poor condition in parts where it is impossible to avoid large (concealed and unavoidable) depressions and potholes on the track.

Gilroys main objective was to get to the treeline where he could start concealing the body.

He was probably not too worried about a large puddle - then bang, his suspension has gone.

3 - The police think Suzanne was still in the boot when Gilroy got to Lochgilphead school.

This has baffled me from the beginning as Gilroy would have to assume that the police may be waiting for him at Lochgilphead School.

He does not know if the police in Edinburgh have realised Suzanne may be with him (in his car boot) but he must assume the police have considered it and they could have sent a police car to meet him at Lochgilphead School.

Gilroy has time and the opportunity between 13.22 and 15.51 to get rid of any evidence.

Gilroy would not want to arrive at Lochgilpead School with any incriminating evidence which includes - Suzannes body, her clothing and belongings, whatever was used to separate the body from the boot lining, the spade and his grave digging clothes.

Changing from his suit to the grave digging clothes would entail removing his shoes. trousers and shirt and tie and replacing them with boots. trousers/jeans and a jumper.

He would be able to conceal everything at the disposal site apart from his grave digging clothes.

He cannot hide the grave digging clothes with everything else as that would mean his suit and shoes would be covered in mud in the process.

He changes back into his suit and puts the grave digging clothes in the boot.

He drives towards Inveraray in his grave digging clothes and before he reaches Inveraray he stops and changes back into his suit and either

A - Hides the grave digging clothes somewhere on the B8074/A85/A819 with the intention of going back to collect them in order to fully complete the disposal
or
B - Disposes of the grave digging clothes somewhere on the B8074/A85/A819 as he has no intention of going back to the disposal site

I think he went for A as he would want one disposal site for everything and because of his ties. (see pictures below)

If I am right he must then have disposed of the grave digging clothes just before or after passing Tyndrum at 21.08.

His car would be making unusual metal on metal noises especially when he turned the steering wheel (broken suspension coils make a hell of a noise when turning corners) and as Gilroy does not want to break down he must have seriously considered not going back to the disposal site but maybe he went slower this time and avoided any further damage to his car.

One more thing which I noticed is Gilroys tie

At the petrol station on Queensferry Road, Edinburgh his tie length is short and above his waistband

1 - Petrol station.jpg

At Lochgilphead School after 16.29 his tie is longer and below his waistband

2 - School.jpg

And when he gets to the police station in Edinburgh at 23.26 his tie is short again above his waistband

3 - Police station.jpg

This indicates that he changed from his suit to his grave digging clothes and back to his suit between 13.22 and 15.51 and again between 18.58 and 21.08 indicating that he went to the same disposal site twice and therefore had to change clothes twice.

I'm all for meeting up and exploring the Allt Broighleachan track, hopefully everyone is able to travel without restrictions in Scotland by May or June.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 23rd February 2021 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:02 AM   #830
NightOfTheDemon
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This part of the previous post should read

He changes back into his suit and puts the grave digging clothes in the boot

or

He drives towards Inveraray in his grave digging clothes and before he reaches Inveraray he stops and changes back into his suit

And this

I think he went for A as he would want one disposal site for everything and because of his ties. (see pictures below)

should read

I think he went for A because of his ties. (see pictures below)

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 24th February 2021 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:36 AM   #831
NightOfTheDemon
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This explains my theory/timeline

Prior to passing Tyndrum change from suit into grave digging clothes (this explains the 10 missing minutes between Doune and Tyndrum)

13.22 Passes Tyndrum

13.52 Arrives at the bench on the Allt Broighleachan track

13.52 to 15.05 First disposal 73 minutes

15.05 Leave the Allt Broighleachan bench and drive towards Inveraray (still wearing grave digging clothes)

Stop for 5 minutes on the B8074/A85/A819 and change from grave digging clothes back into suit and in the process he puts his tie back on but at a slightly different length.

During this 5 minute stop he hides his grave digging clothes out of sight somewhere on the B8074/A85/A819 intending to collect them when he is finished at Lochgilphead School

Drive for 41 minutes

15.51 Arrives at the Royal Burgh cafe, Inveraray
------------------------------------------------------
18.58 Passes CCTV at Royal Burgh cafe, Inveraray

After passing Inveraray and before he gets to the bridge leading to the Allt Broighleachan track he returns to where he has hidden his grave digging clothes and stops for 5 minutes and removes his suit and changes into his grave digging clothes

Drive for 41 minutes

19.44 Arrives at the bench on the Allt Broighleachan track

19.44 to 20.38 Second disposal 54 minutes*

Leaves the disposal site whilst still wearing his grave digging clothes.

Drive for 30 minutes

21.08 Arrives at The Green Welly, Tyndrum

Stops on the A82 between Tyndrum and Ardlui for 5 minutes and change from grave digging clothes back into suit (and bags the grave digging clothes) and in the process he puts his tie back on but at a slightly different length.

Take 5 minutes to dispose of the grave digging clothes somewhere on the A82 between Tyndrum and Ardlui. (probably at the same location on the A82 where he changed from his grave digging clothes into his suit)

This explains the 10 missing minutes between Tyndrum and Ardlui.

*The disposal time is probably less than 54 minutes as he still has to disinfect the car boot between 19.44 and 21.08

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 24th February 2021 at 04:56 AM.
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