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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:05 PM   #1681
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For those who think that Coronavirus is "not all it's cracked up to be" I would like to point out that deaths in the United States topped 500,000 today.

Five hundred thousand dead people. Half a million. Tell them that the virus isn't all it's cracked up to be. Go on.
Ah but they were all obviously sick already because they didn't take vitamin C and instead ate food full of preservatives like deoxyribonucleic acid.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:13 PM   #1682
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I stand by my statement that "The great majority whose lives may be shortened by hours or days by CV-19 are those with very advanced stages of cancer, heart disease or other terminal illnesses," but am not allowed to provide links at this point.
I may be a little late to the party but I would suggest people read Tom's gotcha claim with more care. The statement he insists on standing by only applies to people whose lives were shortened by hours or days due to Covid-19.

It does not address all the people whose lives were shortened by mere weeks, let alone by months, years or decades.

People seem to have assumed Tom was claiming that the hours or days figure is typical for Covid-19 victims. He may well have wished you to make that assumption. But that is not what he said. What he actually said is the more mundane claim that most of the people who only lost a few days of their life to Covid-19 were already close to death.


<edit to add> A study at the University of Glasgow has concluded that the average Covid-19 victim had a remaining life expectancy of more than a decade.
https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 22nd February 2021 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:18 PM   #1683
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
This is the most recent info from Dr. Makary at Johns Hopkins...I don't know how it could be true as I'm accused of posting false info, but how false Dr. Makary is, you all may want to read. Heard from other sources today that we could be there now, but who knows about all the numbers we're told.

https://www.newsweek.com/john-hopkin...munity-1570615

This info may not be heard on mainstream news as the left want to keep every one in continual fear and constant push for vaccines.


Just today from Dr. Victory's program:

More was discussed today, and the gang who follow Lord Fauci do not want the population to know this as that gang is pushing for continued masking, closures and vaccines.. So mainstream MDs are told NOT to discuss how close we are to Herd Immunity.

Do more research folks, it's well over a year of this insanity.
Not 82 years of it? It all seems fake to me. I mean herd immunity from something you don't think exists. Top tip. Be consistent with your trolling.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:24 PM   #1684
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:32 PM   #1685
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
It is surely fruitless to question dogma ... <snip for brevity>
You are raising the idea that people are dying with Covid-19 yet being recorded as dying of Covid-19. In the UK we have the official count which is of people who die within 28 days of a positive Covid-19 test. That gets certain people terribly exercised as they rant that someone might merely be hit by a bus and become a Covid statistic.

Well, if it helps to set your mind at ease, also in the UK, the Office For National Statistics gathers other measures including doctors own assessments of whether Covid-19 was a major cause of an individual's death. In the first wave last Spring those two measures had a 93% match.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:36 PM   #1686
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For those who think that Coronavirus is "not all it's cracked up to be" I would like to point out that deaths in the United States topped 500,000 today.

Five hundred thousand dead people. Half a million. Tell them that the virus isn't all it's cracked up to be. Go on.
At the risk of beating religious analogies to death, I'll probably believe that CV-19 was the primary cause of those deaths the same day I agree with the over 2 billion people who believe that Jesus died for my sins and then arose from the dead.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:37 PM   #1687
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Well, I don't know anything FOR SURE and neither do any of you or Facui. But why not put info out there that comes by my ears and it may hit a chord with maybe one soul here. But then that would be wishful thinking that some here do some thinking.

Last edited by Caroline13; 22nd February 2021 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:38 PM   #1688
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
This is the most recent info from Dr. Makary at Johns Hopkins...I don't know how it could be true as I'm accused of posting false info, but how false Dr. Makary is, you all may want to read. Heard from other sources today that we could be there now, but who knows about all the numbers we're told.

https://www.newsweek.com/john-hopkin...munity-1570615

This info may not be heard on mainstream news as the left want to keep every one in continual fear and constant push for vaccines.


Just today from Dr. Victory's program:

More was discussed today, and the gang who follow Lord Fauci do not want the population to know this as that gang is pushing for continued masking, closures and vaccines.. So mainstream MDs are told NOT to discuss how close we are to Herd Immunity.

Do more research folks, it's well over a year of this insanity.
"Here's something you may not hear on a mainstream source..." she says, as she links to a mainstream source that says it.

Seriously, for all that people like you like to boast how everyone who doesn't agree with you are mindless sheep, it sure does seem like you guys have your little tropes and formulas that you just must faithfully trot out, no matter how idiotic they are in context.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:39 PM   #1689
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We see here a suggestion that herd immunity Will soon be achieved to what the OP has asserted is a hoax. Somewhere, an exploding irony meter is touching itself.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:45 PM   #1690
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Well, I don't know anything FOR SURE and neither do any of you or Facui. But why not put info out there that comes by my ears and it may hit a chord with maybe one soul here. But then that would be wishful thinking that some here do some thinking.
So instead of actually dealing with the points people make you decide to preach and browbeat us with your false accusations of being closed minded? Brilliant. You really are a failure aren't you?

Why not answer a post like the following:

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Yes, it is. Then, when we have questioned and been presented with evidence, go where the evidence leads us. The evidence leads to masks being effective, vaccines working, COVID19 being deadly and not just "flu" and vitamin megadoses being about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Your problem is that because we aren't accepting your unsubstantiated nonsense pulled from cranks like that scum sucking AIDS denialist you quoted or the all around moron Mercola you want to throw a hissy fit and claim we aren't really sceptics.

Tell me something Caroline, if you are the Real ScepticTM here, why do you run away from people's questions? Why do you outright refuse to do any research on anything? Why did you claim that DNA was obviously a preservative? Why do you keep seagull posting and avoiding hard questions?
Rather than bleating on and beating the same rhetorical drum of falsehood?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:46 PM   #1691
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
At the risk of beating religious analogies to death, I'll probably believe that CV-19 was the primary cause of those deaths the same day I agree with the over 2 billion people who believe that Jesus died for my sins and then arose from the dead.
Do you realise how many people have to be malicious and deliberate liars for your scenario to be true?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:52 PM   #1692
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you realise how many people have to be malicious and deliberate liars for your scenario to be true?
And how much cooperation is required between people, companies, and countries that don't normally cooperate with each other.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:54 PM   #1693
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We see here a suggestion that herd immunity Will soon be achieved to what the OP has asserted is a hoax. Somewhere, an exploding irony meter is touching itself.
Not to mention an assertion by the doctor being cited by Caroline that this herd immunity will be thanks, at least in part, to the use of the vaccines that Caroline is so peevishly against.
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Last edited by turingtest; 22nd February 2021 at 05:31 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:55 PM   #1694
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
At the risk of beating religious analogies to death, I'll probably believe that CV-19 was the primary cause of those deaths the same day I agree with the over 2 billion people who believe that Jesus died for my sins and then arose from the dead.
Soooooo......your entire argument is that because a whole lot of idiots believe in a unrelated fairy tale, modern scientific evidence about Covid-19 must be wrong?

That is hilarious.

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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:58 PM   #1695
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
At the risk of beating religious analogies to death, I'll probably believe that CV-19 was the primary cause of those deaths the same day I agree with the over 2 billion people who believe that Jesus died for my sins and then arose from the dead.
This is a **** analogy. That you don't realize it tells us much.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:00 PM   #1696
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
This is a **** analogy. That you don't realize it tells us much.
Nothing that we couldn't work out previously, of course.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:03 PM   #1697
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
This is a **** analogy. That you don't realize it tells us much.
It's his story, and he's sticking to it- much like the over 2 billion people who believe that Jesus died for my sins and then arose from the dead.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:06 PM   #1698
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I'm submitting this Snopes link so I can ask you why do you think they pulled it.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fl...t-covid-death/
Read your own Snopes link next time



"It does appear to the case, however, that a motorcyclist who was killed in a traffic accident also tested positive for COVID-19, and was initially listed among Florida’s COVID-19-related deaths. But officials from the Florida Department of Health said that person has since been removed from the count."

Gosh. A error about one person has been fixed by the Florida Health department. Therefore you claim Covid-19 isn't real?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:09 PM   #1699
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
At the risk of beating religious analogies to death, I'll probably believe that CV-19 was the primary cause of those deaths the same day I agree with the over 2 billion people who believe that Jesus died for my sins and then arose from the dead.
Hey, perhaps you could discover what the real cause of all these excess death is and save thousands if not millions of lives.

Or perhaps you could just consider the consilience of evidence from virologists and epidemiologists and doctors and medical researchers and statisticians in different countries all over the world and realise that the cranks whose conspiracy theories you've been falling for are simply full of crap.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:10 PM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I may be a little late to the party but I would suggest people read Tom's gotcha claim with more care...

A study at the University of Glasgow has concluded that the average Covid-19 victim had a remaining life expectancy of more than a decade.
https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75
I don't think that I made a "gotcha claim," or, at least I don't think that I tried to.

As an aside, I really loved a visit to Scotland where I made special visit to the University of Glasgow to see the statue of the Chairman of Philosophy Department and author of The Theory of Moral Sentiments and The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith.

However, your linked study at the U. of Glasgow says the analyzed stats came "from published data." I refer to the possibility of GIGO, as per the extreme example of the death of a motorcycle accident victim being attributed to CV, and the medical examiner arguing for the validity of that finding.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 22nd February 2021 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:15 PM   #1701
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
This is a **** analogy. That you don't realize it tells us much.
Similarly his remark that he sees it's fruitless to question dogma.

I mean, you might just take that as a throwaway insult, but it might well indicate a failure on his part to recognise how science actually works; that theory is always up for challenge and you never have to take anybody's word for it and the evidence always trumps what you want to be true and the results of experiment should be replicable by anybody else. Utterly unlike religious faith which embraces belief without proof as the highest of achievements.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:18 PM   #1702
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I don't think that I made a "gotcha claim,"
That's right. No one thinks you succeeded. .

Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
As an aside, I really loved a visit to Scotland where I made special visit to the University of Glasgow to see the statue of the Chairman of Philosophy Department and author of The Theory of Moral Sentiments and The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith.
You're a horticulturist and not an economist and Adam Smith, (1723 – 1790) has nothing to do with Covid-19 conspiracies.

Try to present, on topic, coherent arguments, supported by evidence, next time.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:24 PM   #1703
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
... However, your linked study at the U. of Glasgow says the analyzed stats came "from published data."
Perhaps you would prefer unpublished data. Or made up data. Or imaginary data. Or what some guy on YouTube reckons. Rather than published data which other researchers can also study and question and evaluate for the quality of its methodology.

Your scepticism seems to consist of a layered approach of saying "well, maybe those guys are all lying too" all the way down. If you have a reasoned criticism of the data rather than a kneejerk "what if it's all just pretend?" then let's have it. And if you can come up with a good reason to explain why the entire world is lying to you, let's have that too.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:28 PM   #1704
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you realise how many people have to be malicious and deliberate liars for your scenario to be true?
No. How many?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:30 PM   #1705
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Perhaps you would prefer unpublished data. Or made up data.
No. I would prefer data gathered under personal supervision.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:40 PM   #1706
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
No. I would prefer data gathered under personal supervision.
- why have you failed to gather the data to debunk the claims you make about Covid being a hoax?

Why are you stuck in the Conspiracy Theory section of the forum?

Ans: you believe and make up Conspiracy Theories

Irony, you post conspiracy theories on Covid in the Covid Conspiracy theory thread
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:42 PM   #1707
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
No. How many?
Well, try to make a start. Who has to be in on it? It's a fun game and you can play it with lots of other conspiracy theories like 9/11 being an inside job.

If there's actually no Covid-19 pandemic, who would need to be aware and be keeping it hushed up? Easy one to start: all the doctors and nurses in all the countries who have dealt with waves of excess sick people? They're treating them all, so how could they remain unaware that they're not dealing with the set of symptoms they're supposed to be seeing? Surely they've got to be in on it. Or, depending on how looney-tunes you want your conspiracy to get, what about all the victims who are the excess deaths? Do we consider that they might not be dead but just hiding somewhere, giggling at how they fooled us all? Maybe that's going a bit too far. The researchers who have studied the virus; they definitely have to be in on it. The ones who developed the vaccines too, in every country that's been working on it worldwide. All just fooling us with this virus stuff while people are dropping dead of something else. Who else? There's surely plenty more.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:44 PM   #1708
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
No. I would prefer data gathered under personal supervision.
By whom?

Do you have any idea of what the evidence is that you are talking about, or of how it was gathered?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:49 PM   #1709
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, try to make a start. Who has to be in on it? It's a fun game and you can play it with lots of other conspiracy theories like 9/11 being an inside job.

If there's actually no Covid-19 pandemic, who would need to be aware and be keeping it hushed up? Easy one to start: all the doctors and nurses in all the countries who have dealt with waves of excess sick people? They're treating them all, so how could they remain unaware that they're not dealing with the set of symptoms they're supposed to be seeing? Surely they've got to be in on it. Or, depending on how looney-tunes you want your conspiracy to get, what about all the victims who are the excess deaths? Do we consider that they might not be dead but just hiding somewhere, giggling at how they fooled us all? Maybe that's going a bit too far. The researchers who have studied the virus; they definitely have to be in on it. The ones who developed the vaccines too, in every country that's been working on it worldwide. All just fooling us with this virus stuff while people are dropping dead of something else. Who else? There's surely plenty more.
I'd say that it would have to be in the millions, if not the hundreds of millions. All of whom have to be actively complicit. All of whom have to keep the secret.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:49 PM   #1710
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
No. How many?
Well, as I've said a few times already, this conspiracy theory of yours requires the complicity of virtually the whole of the world's medical scientific community. I don't know the exact number, but it's a **** of a lot of people.

It's no less idiotic than when flat earthers claim that the entire scientific community is behind a giant hoax to hide the true nature of the form of the cosmos, and have been, generation after generation, since the Third Century BCE.

You keep going on about Christian mythology like a broken record because you clearly expect everyone to be greatly impressed with the fact that you don't believe, and therefore conclude that you are an utterly logical person who rejects all irrational beliefs. But given your arguments it's transparently obvious that you wouldn't recognize scientific reasoning if it rammed its ovipositor down your throat and laid its eggs in your chest.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:14 PM   #1711
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
And the so called Skeptics around here salivate with Lord Fauci's B.S.

I thought skeptic means to Question, Doubt, Is it True or Not?, etc etc....

But here, not what I read.
Caroline,

You've mentioned elsewhere that your grape seed extract helps protect you from Covid-19. You also mentioned a study that is looking at grape tannins and their positive effects on Covid-19.

Grape seed extract seems like a supplement that at worst would do no harm, but may just be beneficial and foolish not to look at. This is where you can answer a simple question that will benefit everyone:

What specific brand, product name, and dose of grape seed extract do you use?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:20 PM   #1712
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Well, as I've said a few times already, this conspiracy theory of yours requires the complicity of virtually the whole of the world's medical scientific community. I don't know the exact number, but it's a **** of a lot of people.

It's no less idiotic than when flat earthers claim that the entire scientific community is behind a giant hoax to hide the true nature of the form of the cosmos, and have been, generation after generation, since the Third Century BCE.

You keep going on about Christian mythology like a broken record because you clearly expect everyone to be greatly impressed with the fact that you don't believe, and therefore conclude that you are an utterly logical person who rejects all irrational beliefs. But given your arguments it's transparently obvious that you wouldn't recognize scientific reasoning if it rammed its ovipositor down your throat and laid its eggs in your chest.
It fails on another level too, namely the simplistic implication that someone who embraces that particular irrational belief (Christianity) must, by definition, be someone who will embrace any such belief. Of course, there are any number of Christians who are also scientists who will tell you that that's *********- that the defining difference is how the separate questions are approached and resolved. Which leads to the corollary- that someone who rejects the religious belief isn't, by simple definition, going to necessarily be one who will reject another irrational belief, such as Covid 19 CTs.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:50 PM   #1713
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Well, as I've said a few times already, this conspiracy theory of yours requires the complicity of virtually the whole of the world's medical scientific community.
Well, as I said early on, and will repeat as often as necessary, or until I get kicked off the forum, is that I DON'T THINK THAT COVID-19 IS EITHER A CONSPIRACY OR A HOAX.

I think that there has been a confluence of interests involved, big pharma and a sensationalist media among them, and millions of True Believers, which is why I refer to it in religious terms; and judging from comments on the web, I doubt that anywhere near the whole of the world's medical community is on board with the measures taken in the war against CV-19.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 22nd February 2021 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:56 PM   #1714
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Well, as I said early on, and will repeat as often as necessary, or until I get kicked off the forum, is that I DON'T THINK THAT COVID-19 IS EITHER A CONSPIRACY OR A HOAX.
How do you account for half a million dead people in the United States alone? Do you think that's just not a big deal??
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:58 PM   #1715
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
... judging from comments on the web, I doubt that anywhere near the whole of the world's medical community is on board with the measures taken in the war against CV-19.
I suppose it doesn't take many cranks to make a lot of noise in an internet bubble.

On the other hand perhaps you could direct us to those portions of the world's medical community which disagree with the consensus of medical opinion so that we can assess for ourselves whether they seem to represent a significant part of the medical community.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:01 PM   #1716
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I DON'T THINK THAT COVID-19 IS EITHER A CONSPIRACY OR A HOAX
Yet you appear convinced that it isn't the coronavirus everyone else seems to think it is. Can you tell us what you suspect has caused all these excess deaths in the last year?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:17 PM   #1717
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How do you account for half a million dead people in the United States alone? Do you think that's just not a big deal??
The better question what would the death toll be had no action been taken?

Again, you can't win against CT loons. The goal posts are adjusted as needed. And the fact is that they don't theorize if the death rates might be higher unless it's China. We've learned the governor of NY hid the nursing home death data to hide his incompetence, where is the call to investigate other states? A good skeptic should be wondering what other COVID data has been hidden or altered in different states and by the Trump White House.

Another thing I notice in this thread is a painful lack of original thinking from our COVID CTist. Both are paint-by-numbers types. No individual though in evidence.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:17 PM   #1718
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post

On the other hand perhaps you could direct us to those portions of the world's medical community which disagree with the consensus of medical opinion so that we can assess for ourselves whether they seem to represent a significant part of the medical community.
Here's one tiny sample, but you can do your own search of European medical associations and elsewhere that oppose the war on Covid measures advocated by Pope Anthony (Fauci).
https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...1b297731c3da74
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:26 PM   #1719
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oops, Fauci not mentioned in article from 4 months ago!

Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Here's one tiny sample, but you can do your own search of European medical associations and elsewhere that oppose the war on Covid measures advocated by Pope Anthony (Fauci).
https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...1b297731c3da74
What is your point? My doors are not locked, I can walk dogs, I can play golf, etc, etc. we go shopping... I am not sure you have a point from an article in October, do you read out of date stuff you post before posting them.

The article did not say anything about Fauci, you made it up.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:35 PM   #1720
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Well, as I said early on, and will repeat as often as necessary, or until I get kicked off the forum, is that I DON'T THINK THAT COVID-19 IS EITHER A CONSPIRACY OR A HOAX.
Oh, so it isn't that the whole of the world's medical science community is evil, it's that the whole of the world's medical scientific community is just dumber than you are.

That's way more plausible. I mean, they're so stupidly incompetent that they don't even realize that all viruses are equally contagious.

Quote:
Judging from comments on the web, I doubt that anywhere near the whole of the world's medical community is on board with the measures taken in the war against CV-19.
Oh, sure. I mean there's that demon sperm lady. She seems pretty on the ball.

Pointing to a few cranks and claiming it indicates a division in the scientific community is on the conspiracy theory bingo card.
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