[Split Thread] Vitamin C as a cure for illnesses

IsThisTheLife · 18th August 2020, 05:25 PM

Split from here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=342717

Posted By:Agatha

Originally Posted by Rolfe

One third will not refuse to take it. I consider anyone who says unreservedly right now that they would take a coronavirus vaccine to be dangerously complacent and a lot of people would answer in that spirit. Once the vaccine is a real thing that can be discussed sensibly that will change.

Most people will take it, and those that won't should find their lives somewhat constrained as a result. Compulsory 14-day quarantine on returning from abroad for a start.

All you need to do is stock up with vitamin C powder (very cheap - at the moment). If you even suspect you've contracted C19 take 3-4 hourly doses of 5-6 grams for several days. If you know it's prevalent and your exposure risk is high, do the same. You may well get the runs, IOW reach what's called your 'bowel tolerance' limit and if it's really bad back off the dosage until it's at least,er, under control. This kills ALL viruses, not just C19. Or don't, as your quack will surely advise you.

Silly Green Monkey · 18th August 2020, 05:55 PM

How does ascorbic acid kill viruses?

Silly Green Monkey · 18th August 2020, 05:59 PM

I'm curious. I warn you though, I have cellular and molecular/ microbiology training, and remember a few of the mechanisms. By the way, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid.

IsThisTheLife · 18th August 2020, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

I'm curious. I warn you though, I have cellular and molecular/ microbiology training, and remember a few of the mechanisms. By the way, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid.

Jesus wept.

Whatever. Totally OT, but given your undoubted expertise in cellular biology this might pique your equally undoubted curioisity (surely the mainspring of the 'skeptical' mind), let me tell you about something else vitamin C (therapy) is useful for - slowing or even stopping the progress of malignancies.

Me, I'm two years and three months from first symptoms of what's turned out to be a stem cell (AKA plasma cell) malignancy (a very rare type, 1 in 1,000,000) that was diagnosed in June last year. The protocol used to treat it is, at present, the same as for myeloma (both are "treatable but terminal")- poison you to just short of killing you, killing ALL your stem/plasma cells with 'cytotoxins' AKA 'chemotherapy' after 'harvesting' healthy ones for subsequent autologous transplanting (or grafting). Nice.

The median time to being completely bed-ridden from first symptoms caused by the damage the free light chains (protein fragments produced by the malignant plasma cells) do to the body is 2-3 years.

Immediately the blood work that revealed it came in (last June) I commenced a regime of min 40g up to 100g C daily (generally c. 60-70g split into doses 3-4 hours apart - (a hiatus at night, obviously, but I take at least one nocturnally). The debilitating fatigue that was afflicting me by that time lifted immediately, i.e within 24 hours (but returns as quickly if I get complacent and miss doses for even half a day, six hours).

I'm still on my feet (albeit on crutches) and generally feeling well after no other intervention. Paraproteins are still up but the free light chains are down 50% compared to that time.

My consultant at University College Hospital London would prefer it if I stopped (even if there is absolutely NO toxicity limit, it doesn't work so just ... stop it will you?). Almost literally a case of "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes".

As it happens I'm going up to town for a cosnultation with her next Wednesday. I wonder what she'll have to say when I tell her I'm considering IV vitamin C therapy?

IsThisTheLife · 18th August 2020, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

I'm curious. I warn you though, I have cellular and molecular/ microbiology training, and remember a few of the mechanisms. By the way, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid.

By the way, vitamin C is 'ascorbate'. (L) ascorbic acid is an ascorbate, the most easily made one (simply fermented from glucose). Ascorbate synthsised by higher animals that can do so (which is almost all) is as other forms. Primates are the only mammalian group (which includes homo sapiens sapiens) that completely lack the ability and have to obtain it in diet. Almost all, with the exception of homo sapiens sapiens, are arboreal and it's estimated that they obtain c. 4-5g or more daily per 50Kg of body mass from their diets. The implication is that most homo sapiens sapiens spend their lives chronically deficient in ascorbate. Even more to pique your boundless curiosity?

Silly Green Monkey · 18th August 2020, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid and ascorbate, is a vitamin found in various foods and sold as a dietary supplement. It is used to prevent and treat scurvy. Vitamin C is an essential nutrient involved in the repair of tissue and the enzymatic production of certain neurotransmitters. Wikipedia

I'm still curious what cellular mechanisms are interacting with ascorbic acid as your post is long on descriptions of your condition, descriptions of the dose, but not on how it works. I'm a nuts and bolts type, interested in the deepest workings of the biological machine that has created me. What proteins on the cellular wall pick up the C, where does it get shipped to in the cells infected or otherwise (does it prevent the virus from entering new cells?). How much is too much?

I'm also interested in the light chains, I've been able to find out what they are (product of white blood cells) but not what have a large excess does. Are you sure that the chains are what cause your fatigue, or are they another symptom of the underlying cause that your dosing is treating?

Rolfe · 19th August 2020, 04:15 AM

Anyone who likes is welcome to walk into a high-risk viral environment and stuff themselves to the eyeballs with vitamin C. I won't be joining them. I'll leave others to continue the demolition of the quack.

rjh01 · 19th August 2020, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Anyone who likes is welcome to walk into a high-risk viral environment and stuff themselves to the eyeballs with vitamin C. I won't be joining them. I'll leave others to continue the demolition of the quack.

All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would.

ponderingturtle · 19th August 2020, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would.

At the dosage being referenced you get fun things like kidney stones and all kinds of other problems.

alfaniner · 19th August 2020, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would.

Which will be obvious when your pee is coming out an intense bright or deep dark color instead of pale yellow. As it does with many vitamin overdoses.

Myriad · 19th August 2020, 06:47 AM

Can I take my Vitamin C megadose at the same time as my hydroxychloroquine, oleander, bleach, colloidal silver, and eye of newt, or does it need to be taken separately?

IsThisTheLife · 19th August 2020, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

I'm still curious what cellular mechanisms are interacting with ascorbic acid as your post is long on descriptions of your condition, descriptions of the dose, but not on how it works. I'm a nuts and bolts type, interested in the deepest workings of the biological machine that has created me. What proteins on the cellular wall pick up the C, where does it get shipped to in the cells infected or otherwise (does it prevent the virus from entering new cells?). How much is too much?

I'm also interested in the light chains, I've been able to find out what they are (product of white blood cells) but not what have a large excess does. Are you sure that the chains are what cause your fatigue, or are they another symptom of the underlying cause that your dosing is treating?

There is no way I'm going to precis answers to all that (google is your friend! Or used to be).

But put simply, the malignant plasma cells are produced in such numbers that one's blood actually runs thick with them. They produce 'lambda' and 'gamma' free light chain protein fragments, and the lambda chains plaque in every tissue in the body. Most people eventually succumb to 'end organ failure' - can be lliver, kidneys, heart, lungs, depending on predisposition.

The first symptoms (as with me) are of polyneuropathy (starting periphrally) from nerve demyelination - loss of sensation, motor control and eventually fairly severe neuropathic pain.

And yes, as with almost all malignancies there is resulting 'malaise' and acute fatigue which lifted *instantly*, not gradually, I began the vit C mega-dose protocol. Otherwise I continued deteriorating for most of 2019, lost a lot of weight (limbs like sticks, ribs showing, but with acute abdominal fluid retention from the oedema - lympathic fluid leaking into tissue from damage to the fine lymphatic capillaries - think 'human spider', not a good look) that somewhat offset the loss of fat and muscle and other tissue.

Almost unnoticed I began to improve from around November and by early this year I had regained most of the lost muscle mass. *Everyone* has told me how deathly I looked last year and much better I am now.

Does vit C therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? Vitamin C is so cheap it's practically free - think 'conflict of interest')

RedStapler · 19th August 2020, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Does vit C therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? Vitamin C is so cheap it's practically free - think 'conflict of interest')

Every morning I open the window and take a deep breath. Haven't been ill in 3 years. Does oxygen therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? oxygen is free - think 'conflict of interest')

IsThisTheLife · 19th August 2020, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by RedStapler

Every morning I open the window and take a deep breath. Haven't been ill in 3 years. Does oxygen therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? oxygen is free - think 'conflict of interest')

Argumentum ad absurdum.

I spent five days at the University College Hospital London last November being studied as part of the 'cohort' of all confirmed cases (numbering c. 114) of this disease in the UK - lumber puncture, nerve conduction study, more blood samples than I could count, CAT scan et al.). This isn't anything vague, it's a rare but specific malignancy with specific changes in blood chemistry, specific symptoms and a firmly established prognosis for sufferers.

Belz... · 19th August 2020, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

How does ascorbic acid kill viruses?

Like the wicked witch of the west, I guess.

IsThisTheLife · 19th August 2020, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Like the wicked witch of the west, I guess.

Arguing with you guys is like trying to nail a turd to a wall.

Belz... · 19th August 2020, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Arguing with you guys is like trying to nail a turd to a wall.

Dude, what's your problem? I made a joke to another poster, not in response to you.

Seriously, get some air.

RedStapler · 19th August 2020, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Argumentum ad absurdum.

You mean the "arguments" for your vit C therapy? Yeah, extremely silly and absurd.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

I spent five days at the University College Hospital London last November being studied as part of the 'cohort' of all confirmed cases (numbering c. 114) of this disease in the UK - lumber puncture, nerve conduction study, more blood samples than I could count, CAT scan et al.). This isn't anything vague, it's a rare but specific malignancy with specific changes in blood chemistry, specific symptoms and a firmly established prognosis for sufferers.

Nice anecdote, my oxygen therapy is still superior to your silly vit C therapy.

IsThisTheLife · 19th August 2020, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by RedStapler

You mean the "arguments" for your vit C therapy? Yeah, extremely silly and absurd.

Nice anecdote, my oxygen therapy is still superior to your silly vit C therapy.

To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination?

Dr. Keith · 19th August 2020, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Arguing with you guys is like trying to nail a turd to a wall.

Why argue?

Why not just clearly answer the questions of people who are curious about your suggestion? That would be like putting a pushpin in a cork board, I would think.

Surely you have some idea for how it is working or you wouldn't be promoting it. So, take this opportunity to lay out that mechanism to help others understand.

Or argue. But understand the choice was yours.

ETA: I'm glad you are feeling better. Cheers to your continued health.

Mader Levap · 19th August 2020, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

All you need to do is stock up with vitamin C powder (very cheap - at the moment). If you even suspect you've contracted C19 take 3-4 hourly doses of 5-6 grams for several days. If you know it's prevalent and your exposure risk is high, do the same. You may well get the runs, IOW reach what's called your 'bowel tolerance' limit and if it's really bad back off the dosage until it's at least,er, under control.

Hopefully no one is sufficiently stupid to use "medical" advice peddled by random nutty anon on some random forum on internet.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

This kills ALL viruses, not just C19.

Another "miracle cure"? Seriously?

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Or don't, as your quack will surely advise you.

Projecting much?

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Almost literally a case of "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes".

Protip for ya: anecdotes, placebo effect, selective cherrypicking, delusional thinking and just plain paranoia are not data.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly.

Even if it is true (that taking vit C makes you feel better - and I will NOT take word at face value from someone like you), that doesn't prove any usefulness of your "miracle cure" against COVID-19.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination?

Maybe you managed to get addicted to vitamin C, lel. It is way, way more likely than vitamin C being "miracle cure" against every virus in existence.

RedStapler · 19th August 2020, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination?

You could send a private message to the user named "PartSkeptic". Who knows, maybe it's god, wanting to tell you something.

IsThisTheLife · 19th August 2020, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by RedStapler

You could send a private message to the user named "PartSkeptic". Who knows, maybe it's god, wanting to tell you something.

Funny you should say that; one unusual symptom with me was that the polyneuropathy led to my losing a good deal of my hearing over the space of less than a month back in Jan/Feb last year, almost nothing above c. 2Khz anymore (can't hear cymbals *at all* for example).

I'm a lifelong audio-nut, one of the simplest pleasures I took from life, and something that could always have been there to kick back to while effectively house-bound was gone. I've often half-jokingly said it seems like a punishment from God.

P.J. Denyer · 19th August 2020, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would.

It might help keep your toilet free of limescale?

IsThisTheLife · 19th August 2020, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

It might help keep your toilet free of limescale?

Probably. I sometimes descale my kettle with it. ETA >> not ideal though, it's a relatively weak acid.

casebro · 19th August 2020, 10:12 AM

So, ITTL, you took chemo therapy and got better?

Rolfe · 19th August 2020, 10:20 AM

I'm very sorry to hear about your diagnosis, IsThisTheLife.

Gord_in_Toronto · 19th August 2020, 11:46 AM

Random poster on the Internet or the Mayo Clinic?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...t/faq-20057968

There are still no large, controlled clinical trials that have shown a substantial effect of vitamin C on cancer, but some preliminary studies do suggest there may be a benefit to combining standard treatments with high-dose IV vitamin C. Until clinical trials are completed, it's premature to determine what role vitamin C may play in the treatment of cancer.

And even if vitamin C was a 100% immediate cure for cancer, what evidence is there that it would have any effect what-so-ever on Covid-19?

Modified · 19th August 2020, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Random poster on the Internet or the Mayo Clinic?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...t/faq-20057968

There are still no large, controlled clinical trials that have shown a substantial effect of vitamin C on cancer, but some preliminary studies do suggest there may be a benefit to combining standard treatments with high-dose IV vitamin C. Until clinical trials are completed, it's premature to determine what role vitamin C may play in the treatment of cancer.

And at blood levels orders of magnitude above what is possible by ingestion, regardless of the amount.

Skeptic Ginger · 19th August 2020, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination?

All that extra vitamin C is being flushed out in your urine.

When you stop taking it your body keeps on flushing so you end up with a deficiency. But I don't think the symptoms of scurvy come on that quickly.

History of vitamin C research: Nobel-in-chemistry winner Linus Pauling conducted a limited experiment on a limited population of college students in ~1954 that appeared to show a benefit during one unknown type of common cold virus strain.

Since that time, millions (billions?) of dollars in research has failed time and time again to replicate the results. I think one or two studies showed some minimal benefit, I'd have to hunt those studies down.

In the meantime billions spent marketing vitamin C has had a very lucrative return selling thousands of different products for which there is not enough evidence to so much as get medical recognition, let alone FDA* approval to make claims on the labels saying these products work. Read those labels carefully, they imply benefits, say what the product is for, but never come right out and say there is supporting evidence for the validity of the claims.

*And therefore FTC approval for putting the claims on the labels.

P.J. Denyer · 19th August 2020, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Probably. I sometimes descale my kettle with it. ETA >> not ideal though, it's a relatively weak acid.

Does a great job on my sous vide machines.

bigred · 19th August 2020, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would.

Stop making sense. Alt medders HATE that.

Originally Posted by Myriad

Can I take my Vitamin C megadose at the same time as my hydroxychloroquine, oleander, bleach, colloidal silver, and eye of newt, or does it need to be taken separately?

That depends on whether you're wearing your copper bracelets and healing crystals at the time.

Skeptical Greg · 19th August 2020, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Probably. I sometimes descale my kettle with it. ETA >> not ideal though, it's a relatively weak acid.

And relatively expensive compared to vinegar, which would work a lot better..

casebro · 19th August 2020, 02:46 PM

I notice it dissolves the tarnish from my copper bracelet. Will that make it lose it's power?

bruto · 19th August 2020, 06:20 PM

While I remain very skeptical of Vitamin C as a miracle cure for anything, I do recall that back in the 1970's when my sister was being treated with chemotherapy for her leukemia, a number of doctors, all essentially opponents of Vit. C, all basically said it's nothing, but....and then would say there's one thing that they acknowledged it does....and each doctor's certainty was different from another's. I doubt very much if megadoses of Vitamin C will have any useful effect if you're healthy, but if you're in a delicate and dangerous state, even a little effect can be more significant. If there's a chance a cold or an infection will kill you, a little edge turns into a big one. One of the consequences of her chemotherapy was that it destroyed the little vitamin C that was in her system (according to the PDR), and some of her fellow patients who pooh-poohed the whole idea had what really looked much like good old fashioned scurvy.

One way of approaching this is to presume that since excess C is excreted easily there's little harm other than the expense in taking more than you need.

Norman Alexander · 19th August 2020, 07:16 PM

This megadosing of vitamins silliness is based on a simple logical failure: If a small dose makes you feel OK, a big dose will make you feel better.

You only need to try that with arsenic to prove how wrong it is.

Skeptic Ginger · 19th August 2020, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

.....

One way of approaching this is to presume that since excess C is excreted easily there's little harm other than the expense in taking more than you need.

It's not completely harmless. Women who take megadoses of vitamin C during pregnancy can give birth to infants who then experience scurvy. Your body begins flushing out the high doses but when you stop taking them it takes a while for your body to stop flushing the vitamin C at that rate.

Here are more negative consequences of megadoses of vitamin C (the article is about megadoses of lots of vitamin supplements.):

Quote:

Vitamin C

The daily consumption of a few grams of vitamin C has been proposed as a therapeutic and preventative measure for a variety of pathological conditions, such as colds [27], cancer [28], schizophrenia [29], hyper-cholesterolaemia and arteriosclerosis [30]. In recent years, many additional studies have been published relating to vitamin C and the common cold. Efforts to confirm the supposed benefits of high doses of ascorbic acid through controlled experiments have had negative or inconclusive results [31-35]....

Urinary uric acid increases with high intakes of vitamin C. Even a single dose of 4 g results in about a 200 g elevation in uric acid excretion [36]. Doses of 0.5-2 g have no observable effect. Ascorbic acid also lowers urine pH, which can lead to kidney stones due to the precipitation of uric acid.

Another adverse effect of megadoses of vitamin C is an increase in urinary oxalic acid, because this is a major catabolite of acorbic acid. When the pH of the urine declines, oxate is precipitated. The result is the formation of oxalate kidney stones.

There is also an increased tendency to haemolysis of erythrocytes that is especially serious in individuals who suffer from glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency [38]. Supplements of 2 g vitamin C daily for two weeks reduce the bacterial capacity of the leukocytes. When doses are stopped, however, this returns to normal [39].

It is important to mention the phenomenon of dependence [31]. Chronic high-level intakes of ascorbic acid induce catabolic mechanisms of ascorbic acid, which may precipitate acute deficiency on return to normal doses. There are reports of acute scurvy developing in two infants breast-fed by mothers who had been consuming more than 400 mg vitamin C daily during pregnancy [31, 40].

There is some evidence that a high intake of vitamin C may interfere with the absorption of vitamin B12, and to indicate this, but the epidemiologic significance of this is doubtful [41]. There has also been speculation that haemochromatosis might result from the increased absorption of iron in individuals already having a high reserve of iron [42]. However, there is no evidence that this occurs.

In conclusion, since the many supposed beneficial effects of high doses of vitamin C have not satisfactorily confirmed, and since excessive intake could be harmful, the consumption of megadoses without medical supervision is not recommended.

EHocking · 21st August 2020, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

I notice it dissolves the tarnish from my copper bracelet. Will that make it lose it's power?

Homeopathetically it would increase its power.

bruto · 21st August 2020, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

I notice it dissolves the tarnish from my copper bracelet. Will that make it lose it's power?

The herbal woo woos would probably have you drink the water, and get a double whammy. With a bellyfull of C and copper too you'll live forever.

Venom · 21st August 2020, 08:57 PM

No conclusive evidence that megadoses of vitamin C helps with the common cold or COVID-19.

My suspicion is people touting this are simply extending the perceived benefits it has on colds to COVID-19 because of shared symptoms. The usual grouping of "flu like symptoms" in dumb alt med.

18th August 2020, 05:55 PM	#2
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,212	How does ascorbic acid kill viruses?
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

18th August 2020, 05:59 PM	#3
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,212	I'm curious. I warn you though, I have cellular and molecular/ microbiology training, and remember a few of the mechanisms. By the way, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid.
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

18th August 2020, 06:44 PM	#4
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey I'm curious. I warn you though, I have cellular and molecular/ microbiology training, and remember a few of the mechanisms. By the way, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. Jesus wept. Whatever. Totally OT, but given your undoubted expertise in cellular biology this might pique your equally undoubted curioisity (surely the mainspring of the 'skeptical' mind), let me tell you about something else vitamin C (therapy) is useful for - slowing or even stopping the progress of malignancies. Me, I'm two years and three months from first symptoms of what's turned out to be a stem cell (AKA plasma cell) malignancy (a very rare type, 1 in 1,000,000) that was diagnosed in June last year. The protocol used to treat it is, at present, the same as for myeloma (both are "treatable but terminal")- poison you to just short of killing you, killing ALL your stem/plasma cells with 'cytotoxins' AKA 'chemotherapy' after 'harvesting' healthy ones for subsequent autologous transplanting (or grafting). Nice. The median time to being completely bed-ridden from first symptoms caused by the damage the free light chains (protein fragments produced by the malignant plasma cells) do to the body is 2-3 years. Immediately the blood work that revealed it came in (last June) I commenced a regime of min 40g up to 100g C daily (generally c. 60-70g split into doses 3-4 hours apart - (a hiatus at night, obviously, but I take at least one nocturnally). The debilitating fatigue that was afflicting me by that time lifted immediately, i.e within 24 hours (but returns as quickly if I get complacent and miss doses for even half a day, six hours). I'm still on my feet (albeit on crutches) and generally feeling well after no other intervention. Paraproteins are still up but the free light chains are down 50% compared to that time. My consultant at University College Hospital London would prefer it if I stopped (even if there is absolutely NO toxicity limit, it doesn't work so just ... stop it will you?). Almost literally a case of "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes". As it happens I'm going up to town for a cosnultation with her next Wednesday. I wonder what she'll have to say when I tell her I'm considering IV vitamin C therapy?
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity." Last edited by IsThisTheLife; 18th August 2020 at 06:49 PM.

18th August 2020, 08:38 PM	#5
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey I'm curious. I warn you though, I have cellular and molecular/ microbiology training, and remember a few of the mechanisms. By the way, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. By the way, vitamin C is 'ascorbate'. (L) ascorbic acid is an ascorbate, the most easily made one (simply fermented from glucose). Ascorbate synthsised by higher animals that can do so (which is almost all) is as other forms. Primates are the only mammalian group (which includes homo sapiens sapiens) that completely lack the ability and have to obtain it in diet. Almost all, with the exception of homo sapiens sapiens, are arboreal and it's estimated that they obtain c. 4-5g or more daily per 50Kg of body mass from their diets. The implication is that most homo sapiens sapiens spend their lives chronically deficient in ascorbate. Even more to pique your boundless curiosity?
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity."

18th August 2020, 08:49 PM	#6
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,212	Quote: Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid and ascorbate, is a vitamin found in various foods and sold as a dietary supplement. It is used to prevent and treat scurvy. Vitamin C is an essential nutrient involved in the repair of tissue and the enzymatic production of certain neurotransmitters. Wikipedia I'm still curious what cellular mechanisms are interacting with ascorbic acid as your post is long on descriptions of your condition, descriptions of the dose, but not on how it works. I'm a nuts and bolts type, interested in the deepest workings of the biological machine that has created me. What proteins on the cellular wall pick up the C, where does it get shipped to in the cells infected or otherwise (does it prevent the virus from entering new cells?). How much is too much? I'm also interested in the light chains, I've been able to find out what they are (product of white blood cells) but not what have a large excess does. Are you sure that the chains are what cause your fatigue, or are they another symptom of the underlying cause that your dosing is treating?
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

19th August 2020, 04:15 AM	#7
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,930	Anyone who likes is welcome to walk into a high-risk viral environment and stuff themselves to the eyeballs with vitamin C. I won't be joining them. I'll leave others to continue the demolition of the quack.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

19th August 2020, 04:38 AM	#8
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,507	Originally Posted by Rolfe Anyone who likes is welcome to walk into a high-risk viral environment and stuff themselves to the eyeballs with vitamin C. I won't be joining them. I'll leave others to continue the demolition of the quack. All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would.
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19th August 2020, 06:05 AM	#9
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,433	Originally Posted by rjh01 All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would. At the dosage being referenced you get fun things like kidney stones and all kinds of other problems.
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19th August 2020, 06:26 AM	#10
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,873	Originally Posted by rjh01 All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would. Which will be obvious when your pee is coming out an intense bright or deep dark color instead of pale yellow. As it does with many vitamin overdoses.
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19th August 2020, 06:47 AM	#11
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 17,470	Can I take my Vitamin C megadose at the same time as my hydroxychloroquine, oleander, bleach, colloidal silver, and eye of newt, or does it need to be taken separately?
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19th August 2020, 06:48 AM	#12
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey I'm still curious what cellular mechanisms are interacting with ascorbic acid as your post is long on descriptions of your condition, descriptions of the dose, but not on how it works. I'm a nuts and bolts type, interested in the deepest workings of the biological machine that has created me. What proteins on the cellular wall pick up the C, where does it get shipped to in the cells infected or otherwise (does it prevent the virus from entering new cells?). How much is too much? I'm also interested in the light chains, I've been able to find out what they are (product of white blood cells) but not what have a large excess does. Are you sure that the chains are what cause your fatigue, or are they another symptom of the underlying cause that your dosing is treating? There is no way I'm going to precis answers to all that (google is your friend! Or used to be). But put simply, the malignant plasma cells are produced in such numbers that one's blood actually runs thick with them. They produce 'lambda' and 'gamma' free light chain protein fragments, and the lambda chains plaque in every tissue in the body. Most people eventually succumb to 'end organ failure' - can be lliver, kidneys, heart, lungs, depending on predisposition. The first symptoms (as with me) are of polyneuropathy (starting periphrally) from nerve demyelination - loss of sensation, motor control and eventually fairly severe neuropathic pain. And yes, as with almost all malignancies there is resulting 'malaise' and acute fatigue which lifted instantly, not gradually, I began the vit C mega-dose protocol. Otherwise I continued deteriorating for most of 2019, lost a lot of weight (limbs like sticks, ribs showing, but with acute abdominal fluid retention from the oedema - lympathic fluid leaking into tissue from damage to the fine lymphatic capillaries - think 'human spider', not a good look) that somewhat offset the loss of fat and muscle and other tissue. Almost unnoticed I began to improve from around November and by early this year I had regained most of the lost muscle mass. Everyone has told me how deathly I looked last year and much better I am now. Does vit C therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? Vitamin C is so cheap it's practically free - think 'conflict of interest')
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19th August 2020, 06:58 AM	#13
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Does vit C therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? Vitamin C is so cheap it's practically free - think 'conflict of interest') Every morning I open the window and take a deep breath. Haven't been ill in 3 years. Does oxygen therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? oxygen is free - think 'conflict of interest')
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19th August 2020, 08:05 AM	#14
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by RedStapler Every morning I open the window and take a deep breath. Haven't been ill in 3 years. Does oxygen therapy work? I would say I'm living proof, but that won't satisfy a 'skeptic' (AKA conformist). There has never been and will never be a 'trial' to provide the absolute proof some will demand (can you figure out why? oxygen is free - think 'conflict of interest') Argumentum ad absurdum. I spent five days at the University College Hospital London last November being studied as part of the 'cohort' of all confirmed cases (numbering c. 114) of this disease in the UK - lumber puncture, nerve conduction study, more blood samples than I could count, CAT scan et al.). This isn't anything vague, it's a rare but specific malignancy with specific changes in blood chemistry, specific symptoms and a firmly established prognosis for sufferers.
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19th August 2020, 08:06 AM	#15
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,350	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey How does ascorbic acid kill viruses? Like the wicked witch of the west, I guess.
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19th August 2020, 08:08 AM	#16
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by Belz... Like the wicked witch of the west, I guess. Arguing with you guys is like trying to nail a turd to a wall.
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19th August 2020, 08:14 AM	#17
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,350	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Arguing with you guys is like trying to nail a turd to a wall. Dude, what's your problem? I made a joke to another poster, not in response to you. Seriously, get some air.
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19th August 2020, 08:15 AM	#18
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Argumentum ad absurdum. You mean the "arguments" for your vit C therapy? Yeah, extremely silly and absurd. Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife I spent five days at the University College Hospital London last November being studied as part of the 'cohort' of all confirmed cases (numbering c. 114) of this disease in the UK - lumber puncture, nerve conduction study, more blood samples than I could count, CAT scan et al.). This isn't anything vague, it's a rare but specific malignancy with specific changes in blood chemistry, specific symptoms and a firmly established prognosis for sufferers. Nice anecdote, my oxygen therapy is still superior to your silly vit C therapy.
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19th August 2020, 08:19 AM	#19
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by RedStapler You mean the "arguments" for your vit C therapy? Yeah, extremely silly and absurd. Nice anecdote, my oxygen therapy is still superior to your silly vit C therapy. To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination?
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19th August 2020, 08:25 AM	#20
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,484	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Arguing with you guys is like trying to nail a turd to a wall. Why argue? Why not just clearly answer the questions of people who are curious about your suggestion? That would be like putting a pushpin in a cork board, I would think. Surely you have some idea for how it is working or you wouldn't be promoting it. So, take this opportunity to lay out that mechanism to help others understand. Or argue. But understand the choice was yours. ETA: I'm glad you are feeling better. Cheers to your continued health.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. Last edited by Dr. Keith; 19th August 2020 at 08:26 AM.

19th August 2020, 08:29 AM	#21
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife All you need to do is stock up with vitamin C powder (very cheap - at the moment). If you even suspect you've contracted C19 take 3-4 hourly doses of 5-6 grams for several days. If you know it's prevalent and your exposure risk is high, do the same. You may well get the runs, IOW reach what's called your 'bowel tolerance' limit and if it's really bad back off the dosage until it's at least,er, under control. Hopefully no one is sufficiently stupid to use "medical" advice peddled by random nutty anon on some random forum on internet. Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife This kills ALL viruses, not just C19. Another "miracle cure"? Seriously? Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Or don't, as your quack will surely advise you. Projecting much? Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Almost literally a case of "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes". Protip for ya: anecdotes, placebo effect, selective cherrypicking, delusional thinking and just plain paranoia are not data. Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. Even if it is true (that taking vit C makes you feel better - and I will NOT take word at face value from someone like you), that doesn't prove any usefulness of your "miracle cure" against COVID-19. Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination? Maybe you managed to get addicted to vitamin C, lel. It is way, way more likely than vitamin C being "miracle cure" against every virus in existence.
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19th August 2020, 08:31 AM	#22
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination? You could send a private message to the user named "PartSkeptic". Who knows, maybe it's god, wanting to tell you something.
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19th August 2020, 08:57 AM	#23
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by RedStapler You could send a private message to the user named "PartSkeptic". Who knows, maybe it's god, wanting to tell you something. Funny you should say that; one unusual symptom with me was that the polyneuropathy led to my losing a good deal of my hearing over the space of less than a month back in Jan/Feb last year, almost nothing above c. 2Khz anymore (can't hear cymbals at all for example). I'm a lifelong audio-nut, one of the simplest pleasures I took from life, and something that could always have been there to kick back to while effectively house-bound was gone. I've often half-jokingly said it seems like a punishment from God.
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19th August 2020, 09:08 AM	#24
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,836	Originally Posted by rjh01 All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would. It might help keep your toilet free of limescale?
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19th August 2020, 09:43 AM	#25
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer It might help keep your toilet free of limescale? Probably. I sometimes descale my kettle with it. ETA >> not ideal though, it's a relatively weak acid.
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity." Last edited by IsThisTheLife; 19th August 2020 at 09:44 AM.

19th August 2020, 10:12 AM	#26
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,646	So, ITTL, you took chemo therapy and got better?
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19th August 2020, 10:20 AM	#27
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,930	I'm very sorry to hear about your diagnosis, IsThisTheLife.
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19th August 2020, 11:46 AM	#28
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,404	Random poster on the Internet or the Mayo Clinic? https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...t/faq-20057968 There are still no large, controlled clinical trials that have shown a substantial effect of vitamin C on cancer, but some preliminary studies do suggest there may be a benefit to combining standard treatments with high-dose IV vitamin C. Until clinical trials are completed, it's premature to determine what role vitamin C may play in the treatment of cancer. And even if vitamin C was a 100% immediate cure for cancer, what evidence is there that it would have any effect what-so-ever on Covid-19?
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19th August 2020, 01:18 PM	#29
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,890	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Random poster on the Internet or the Mayo Clinic? https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...t/faq-20057968 There are still no large, controlled clinical trials that have shown a substantial effect of vitamin C on cancer, but some preliminary studies do suggest there may be a benefit to combining standard treatments with high-dose IV vitamin C. Until clinical trials are completed, it's premature to determine what role vitamin C may play in the treatment of cancer. And at blood levels orders of magnitude above what is possible by ingestion, regardless of the amount.
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19th August 2020, 01:20 PM	#30
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,876	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife To reiterate; if I stop the vit. C mega-dosing for even half a day the malaise and fatigue return like a ton of bricks almost instantly. How do you explain this? Placebo? Pychosomia? My imagination? All that extra vitamin C is being flushed out in your urine. When you stop taking it your body keeps on flushing so you end up with a deficiency. But I don't think the symptoms of scurvy come on that quickly. History of vitamin C research: Nobel-in-chemistry winner Linus Pauling conducted a limited experiment on a limited population of college students in ~1954 that appeared to show a benefit during one unknown type of common cold virus strain. Since that time, millions (billions?) of dollars in research has failed time and time again to replicate the results. I think one or two studies showed some minimal benefit, I'd have to hunt those studies down. In the meantime billions spent marketing vitamin C has had a very lucrative return selling thousands of different products for which there is not enough evidence to so much as get medical recognition, let alone FDA* approval to make claims on the labels saying these products work. Read those labels carefully, they imply benefits, say what the product is for, but never come right out and say there is supporting evidence for the validity of the claims. *And therefore FTC approval for putting the claims on the labels.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 19th August 2020 at 01:22 PM.

19th August 2020, 01:23 PM	#31
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,836	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Probably. I sometimes descale my kettle with it. ETA >> not ideal though, it's a relatively weak acid. Does a great job on my sous vide machines.
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19th August 2020, 01:24 PM	#32
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 18,865	Originally Posted by rjh01 All that I know about vitamin C is that it is water-soluble. This means that if the body does not use it, the vitamin is pissed out of the body. So a mega dose is unlikely to do anything more beneficial than a much smaller dose would. Stop making sense. Alt medders HATE that. Originally Posted by Myriad Can I take my Vitamin C megadose at the same time as my hydroxychloroquine, oleander, bleach, colloidal silver, and eye of newt, or does it need to be taken separately? That depends on whether you're wearing your copper bracelets and healing crystals at the time.

19th August 2020, 01:33 PM	#33
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 16,921	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Probably. I sometimes descale my kettle with it. ETA >> not ideal though, it's a relatively weak acid. And relatively expensive compared to vinegar, which would work a lot better..
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19th August 2020, 02:46 PM	#34
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,646	I notice it dissolves the tarnish from my copper bracelet. Will that make it lose it's power?
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19th August 2020, 06:20 PM	#35
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,708	While I remain very skeptical of Vitamin C as a miracle cure for anything, I do recall that back in the 1970's when my sister was being treated with chemotherapy for her leukemia, a number of doctors, all essentially opponents of Vit. C, all basically said it's nothing, but....and then would say there's one thing that they acknowledged it does....and each doctor's certainty was different from another's. I doubt very much if megadoses of Vitamin C will have any useful effect if you're healthy, but if you're in a delicate and dangerous state, even a little effect can be more significant. If there's a chance a cold or an infection will kill you, a little edge turns into a big one. One of the consequences of her chemotherapy was that it destroyed the little vitamin C that was in her system (according to the PDR), and some of her fellow patients who pooh-poohed the whole idea had what really looked much like good old fashioned scurvy. One way of approaching this is to presume that since excess C is excreted easily there's little harm other than the expense in taking more than you need.
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19th August 2020, 07:16 PM	#36
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,773	This megadosing of vitamins silliness is based on a simple logical failure: If a small dose makes you feel OK, a big dose will make you feel better. You only need to try that with arsenic to prove how wrong it is.
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