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Tags allopathy , homeopathy

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Old 20th February 2021, 06:01 PM   #1
Trebuchet
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Allopathic Medicine!!!

Apparently it's awful. And yet...
I have a new grand-nephew, born last night or early this morning to my nephew and his partner. I expect that, as usual, she did most of the work!
Born by emergency C-section, two months premature. Three pounds.
Breathing on his own and beginning to eat. Has a good prognosis of a long and normal life.
Because of "allopathic" medicine. Which in sensible circles, is simply "medicine". Because it works.

Some on this forum would have denied him the benefits of modern medicine. **** you all!
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Old 20th February 2021, 06:13 PM   #2
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Congratulations on the birth of your nephew. Condolences that this birth has caused you anger instead of happiness.
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Old 20th February 2021, 06:19 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Congratulations on the birth of your nephew. Condolences that this birth has caused you anger instead of happiness.
It's not the birth that has caused me anger, but idiots on this forum!
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Old 20th February 2021, 06:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not the birth that has caused me anger, but idiots on this forum!
You should totally write a card for your nephew, explaining how his birth filled you with anger towards people who had nothing to do with him.

You could give it to him on his sixth birthday, maybe. "Happy birthday! Your birth pissed me off for reasons that have nothing to do with you (except they kinda do), so here I am to tell you about it."
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Old 20th February 2021, 08:07 PM   #5
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Being present only in homeopathic quantities makes your grand-nephew far more potent.
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Old 20th February 2021, 08:13 PM   #6
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Allopathic and surgeries etc definitely have their place in the health world. And they can save lives, help bring life in and can cause deaths.

Glad your little baby made it and has a good health life ahead.

There are 1000's, maybe millions of stories out there and I know how damaged I am from a surgery in my late years, hip replacement. My daughter had to give birth to a 8 month still born so there are mega amounts of stories we can tell. You know what a still born is? Giving birth to a dead baby. Baby Jack had a memorial service...

And amazing how the word idiot is used so much on this forum...

And for whatever it's worth, I was born in the kitchen in my parent's apt in 1938 with an MD handy. Millions have been born at home, in the woods, and every place before modern hospitals.

Last edited by Caroline13; 20th February 2021 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 20th February 2021, 08:16 PM   #7
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Congrats on the new grandnephew. Hooray he's doing well. How's Mom doing? Sounds like Mom or Baby had issues that they needed to take the baby out early.

Who are you fussing about though? Huh? WTF? What idiots on the forum caused you to complain?
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Old 20th February 2021, 08:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
..."allopathic"...
I have the attitude that anyone uttering that word deserves a punch in the mouth, because the only people who use it are those who support homeopathy and other scams.

And excellent news on your grand-nephew!
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Old 20th February 2021, 09:16 PM   #9
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Yay for grandbabies!

And if medicine can co-exist with "alternative medicine" and "alternative medicine works" then the alternative medicine (pseudoscience) must exist in homeopathic amounts, therefore cancelling itself out.
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Old 21st February 2021, 12:19 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I have the attitude that anyone uttering that word deserves a punch in the mouth, because the only people who use it are those who support homeopathy and other scams.

A lot of them support systems that actually are allopathic, such as Ayurveda, Unani, or TCM.
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Old 21st February 2021, 01:07 AM   #11
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Most homeopaths equate "allopathy" with "modern medicine". That is in fact a mistake.

Allopathy is simply a backwards variant of homeopathy. Whereas homeopathy treats symptoms with remedies that (supposedly) invoke those symptoms. allopathy treats symptoms with remedies that (supposedly) depress those symptoms. But both theories are demonstrable nonsense.

In reality, allopathy is simply another swear-word invented by by the godfather of homeopathy, Hahnemann, to deride those whom he felt were entirely misrepresenting his own crazy pet theories, and making money off suckers where he wasn't. He created the word when modern medicine was only in its infancy, which is why it has hung around so long. But allopathy as he defined has nothing whatever to do with how modern medicine works or its theories. So those who continue to use the word in that context are uneducated fools. Aka homeopaths.
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Old 21st February 2021, 01:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
And for whatever it's worth, I was born in the kitchen in my parent's apt in 1938 with an MD handy. Millions have been born at home, in the woods, and every place before modern hospitals.
What were the rates of infancy deaths then? How many mothers dies giving birth?
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Old 21st February 2021, 04:47 AM   #13
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How about you send your new grand-nephew a birthday card? Say in it that it will be the only card he will get for his REAL birthday. Every other 'birthday will be for his birthday anniversary.

It is common to send cards congratulating the mother on the birth.
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Old 21st February 2021, 06:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Allopathic and surgeries etc definitely have their place in the health world. And they can save lives, help bring life in and can cause deaths.

Glad your little baby made it and has a good health life ahead.

There are 1000's, maybe millions of stories out there and I know how damaged I am from a surgery in my late years, hip replacement. My daughter had to give birth to a 8 month still born so there are mega amounts of stories we can tell. You know what a still born is? Giving birth to a dead baby. Baby Jack had a memorial service...

And amazing how the word idiot is used so much on this forum...

And for whatever it's worth, I was born in the kitchen in my parent's apt in 1938 with an MD handy. Millions have been born at home, in the woods, and every place before modern hospitals.
If we are trading anecdotes (yet again), my late mother was born in 1932 and would have died if born at home rather than in hospital, what with Rh stylee problems and requiring a pretty much instant blood transfusion (she was given her middle name after the nurse who supplied the blood and none of us have forgotten that).

My sister had a stillbirth and 2 miscarriages before my niece and nephew were both successfully born in hospitals by elective caesarians, so don't bother trying to patronise me on that score, as many of us know fine well what these things are.
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Old 21st February 2021, 07:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Allopathic and surgeries etc definitely have their place in the health world. And they can save lives, help bring life in and can cause deaths.

Glad your little baby made it and has a good health life ahead.

There are 1000's, maybe millions of stories out there and I know how damaged I am from a surgery in my late years, hip replacement. My daughter had to give birth to a 8 month still born so there are mega amounts of stories we can tell. You know what a still born is? Giving birth to a dead baby. Baby Jack had a memorial service...

And amazing how the word idiot is used so much on this forum...

And for whatever it's worth, I was born in the kitchen in my parent's apt in 1938 with an MD handy. Millions have been born at home, in the woods, and every place before modern hospitals.
You just can't manage to shed that survivor fallacy, can you? You know, we are descended from ancestors born without any medicine at all, millions were born in the muddy fields by enslaved mothers, etcetera etcetera, and yes, the ones who did not die got to say "I survived." Even the worst plagues leave plenty of survivors. To trivialize the seriousness of them by pointing out that you got through is, indeed, not only idiocy but dangerous idiocy.

Your anti-surgery rant conflicts with your still birth rant, as well as your links to organizations that oppose abortion. Have you actually thought this through?

e.t.a. I almost forgot, as long as anecdotes are flying around, I'll meet yours and raise you one: I was a "placenta previa" baby, born prematurely by caesarian, and my mother nearly bled to death. It should hardly be necessary to point out that had she been a dupe of the kind of thoughtless, igorant, anti-scientific garbage that seems never to go away, our stories would have ended in 1947. She lived into her 90's. I'm doing pretty well too. Three cheers for allopathic medicine.
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Last edited by bruto; 21st February 2021 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 21st February 2021, 08:00 AM   #16
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“When I was born, I was born on my mama's kitchen table, what do you think about that, girl?”
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Old 21st February 2021, 08:20 AM   #17
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Added note to Caroline: if the choice of words describing your ideas bothers you, one possible approach (which I realize is difficult) would be to imagine for a moment that others know something you don't, and to try to learn something new from them, instead of diving back down the rabbit hole.

Added note to the prestige: get a grip. You're not usually guilty of bumper-sticker truisms. Be careful not to fall into the trap Caroline has set: to bask obliviously in privilege.

It is possible to do two things at once. To be annoyed or angry at the thought of how tenuous good science is when faced with the kind of goop that people like Caroline peddle, is not being angry at a successful birth. Nor is being angry and disappointed at the thought of how many people in the world cannot enjoy such benefits. For some of us, at least, it is possible to be happy about a good thing without enclosing ourselves in a little bubble and forgetting the rest of the world, and it is possible to be happy about our great good fortune without losing sight of the fact that it is, indeed, great good fortune.
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Old 21st February 2021, 08:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
What were the rates of infancy deaths then? How many mothers dies giving birth?
Reading the tables on this site, infant mortality appears to have been about 50 per 1000 live births at that time. Maternal mortality about 400 per 10,000 live births. Compared to around 5 and nearly none, respectively, by the 1990's. Thanks to that horrible modern medicine.
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Old 21st February 2021, 08:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
What were the rates of infancy deaths then? How many mothers dies giving birth?
Caroline doesn't do stats, she only does stories. And that lack isn't just something missing from her method, it's the sum of it.
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Old 21st February 2021, 01:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Caroline doesn't do stats, she only does stories. And that lack isn't just something missing from her method, it's the sum of it.
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...I don't care about stats. I'm crippled from hip replacement and boy did I read the stats pre surgery.
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Old 21st February 2021, 02:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Reading the tables on this site, infant mortality appears to have been about 50 per 1000 live births at that time. Maternal mortality about 400 per 10,000 live births. Compared to around 5 and nearly none, respectively, by the 1990's. Thanks to that horrible modern medicine.
Sorry, I appear to have forgotten the link. I'll look again this evening.
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Old 21st February 2021, 03:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...I don't care about stats. I'm crippled from hip replacement and boy did I read the stats pre surgery.
That's a bold statement. A person with some humility might consider the possibility that she has not achieved full understanding of the subject. I presume you can provide us with some credible evidence that this is not the case.
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Old 21st February 2021, 03:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Reading the tables on this site, infant mortality appears to have been about 50 per 1000 live births at that time. Maternal mortality about 400 per 10,000 live births. Compared to around 5 and nearly none, respectively, by the 1990's. Thanks to that horrible modern medicine.
Infants 5%, mothers 4%?
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Old 21st February 2021, 03:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...I don't care about stats. I'm crippled from hip replacement and boy did I read the stats pre surgery.
Are you saying you read the stats before you had hip surgery, the stats said most people have no important or long-lasting complications, and you (unfortunately) did have them? If so, I'd suggest that there are at least two things you need to understand-

1) Stats aren't guarantees, they're only measures of likelihoods. This is elementary.

2) It's just not rational to be "anti-stat" because you have a grudge against them- in fact, it's downright childish.

Now it could be that I've misunderstood what you meant by the highlighted; if so, I'm open to correction.
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Old 21st February 2021, 03:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Born by emergency C-section, two months premature. Three pounds. Breathing on his own and beginning to eat. Has a good prognosis of a long and normal life.
My partner had twins delivered by C-section, nine weeks premature as one had a blood clot. Sadly one boy died after 18 days as the blood clot blocked brain stem development.

The other boy is now almost three and absolutely fine.

The good news is that for the nine weeks in NICU, the midwifes beat a regime of reading to him, and good parenting practices, into our brains, which we continue today. I'm suspicious this had allowed my son to develop very good language skills.
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Old 21st February 2021, 03:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers.
Prove it and that there is a conspiracy by thousands of medical workers to independently fake the same resulting manipulated statistics.

I say you are just making your claim up.
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Old 21st February 2021, 04:21 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Prove it and that there is a conspiracy by thousands of medical workers to independently fake the same resulting manipulated statistics.

I say you are just making your claim up.
Say what you want to say, you do not know me or what I've been thru and live with my damaged body from hip replacement.

Bottom line you do a surgery and your take your chances, a true crapshoot. Everybody has their body's own results.
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Old 21st February 2021, 04:43 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Say what you want to say, you do not know me or what I've been thru and live with my damaged body from hip replacement.

Bottom line you do a surgery and your take your chances, a true crapshoot. Everybody has their body's own results.
So you are a statistical study of one person, what is known as n=1. With your incredible knowledge of stats, you know that sort of study is a joke, right?
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Old 21st February 2021, 05:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...I don't care about stats. I'm crippled from hip replacement and boy did I read the stats pre surgery.
Stats are not predictive of a singular outcome. You can have a procedure that is 99.99% safe and still end up on the wrong side of the grass.

I believe I've done my part in balancing hip statistics; I've had both replaced and other than jumping around a lot, I live a perfectly normal life.

Last edited by SezMe; 21st February 2021 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 21st February 2021, 05:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Stats are not predictive of a singular outcome. You can have a procedure that is 99.99% safe and still end up on the wrong side of the grass.

I believe I've done my part in balancing hip statistics; I've had both replaced and other than jumping around a lot, I live a perfectly normal life.
Plenty of damage from the joint replacements...Have you had any? And people do die on the Operating Tables during surgeries.
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Old 21st February 2021, 05:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Plenty of damage from the joint replacements...Have you had any? And people do die on the Operating Tables during surgeries.
I wouldn't go near hospitals if I were you. So many people die there every year!

Also, you do know that the only food they serve at MacDonalds restaurants is MacDonalds food?
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Old 21st February 2021, 06:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Say what you want to say,
No I addressed your ridiculous argument.

You claimed Covid-19 statistics were faked. You were lying.

How did thousands of scientist independently fake Covid-19 statistics and yet all end up with the same statistical results?

You can't answer that question as you were simply lying again.
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Old 21st February 2021, 06:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Plenty of damage from the joint replacements...Have you had any? And people do die on the Operating Tables during surgeries.
Have I had any what?? Damage? I'm not sure what hip replacement "damage" is.
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Old 21st February 2021, 11:13 PM   #34
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In the words of the great philosopher Tim Minchin:

Alternative medicine has either not been proved to work, or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work?

Medicine.
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Old 21st February 2021, 11:34 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not the birth that has caused me anger, but idiots on this forum!
You should totally write a card for your nephew, explaining how his birth filled you with anger towards people who had nothing to do with him.

You could give it to him on his sixth birthday, maybe. "Happy birthday! Your birth pissed me off for reasons that have nothing to do with you (except they kinda do), so here I am to tell you about it."

Nominated as dumbest post in this thread, but I guess theprestige will assume that I am blaming it on the birth of Trebuchet's nephew.
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Old 21st February 2021, 11:54 PM   #36
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Plenty of damage from the joint replacements...Have you had any? And people do die on the Operating Tables during surgeries.
Yes, a small percentage of those who have joint replacement surgery end up no better off, or even worse off, whilst the vast majority are better off. Yes, every person who decides to have it runs a small risk of being one of that small minority rather than the large majority. Most people understand that, and do not take against the whole of modern medicine - and even statistics itself - if they are unlucky enough to be one of the minority. Because most people still have the sense they were born with.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 03:48 AM   #37
Carrot Flower King
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...I don't care about stats.
That's just silly.

We all know that statistics can be manipulated, which is why a knowledge of at least the basics is helpful in spotting someone trying it on (Trisha Greenhalgh - How To Read A Paper...Again). However that sort of claim can only come from someone who has never read any proper scientific research nor participated in any.

Oh, more anedote: both my parents worked with more folk than they could count who'd undergone joint replacement surgery and none of their patients had any lasting damage. So that more than cancels out your story.

See, that's what happens without some hard numbers: we trade anecdotes and no-one ends up knowing anything.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:33 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Plenty of damage from the joint replacements...Have you had any? And people do die on the Operating Tables during surgeries.
Why did you choose to have the replacement? Was your fantastic octogenarian immune system not up to the task of keeping you healthy? Surely there was a better alternative than subjecting yourself to those nasty allopathic medicine practitioners. You could have just chosen to live with the natural pain and limited motion. And did you fully investigate homeopathy? I suspect the surgery involved infusing your body with chemicals that resulted in anesthesia - nasty! And there were antibiotics used to minimize the chance of infection, or did you decline those in favor of your own immune system? And now you have foreign metal in your body replacing that lovely natural bone - that cannot be good.

Criticizing real medicine and then choosing to engage it when it appears to be to your benefit is the height of hypocrisy. It reduces any value in your opinions on medicine to zero.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:47 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You should totally write a card for your nephew, explaining how his birth filled you with anger towards people who had nothing to do with him.

You could give it to him on his sixth birthday, maybe. "Happy birthday! Your birth pissed me off for reasons that have nothing to do with you (except they kinda do), so here I am to tell you about it."
Peak prestige has been achieved.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:58 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Nominated as dumbest post in this thread, but I guess theprestige will assume that I am blaming it on the birth of Trebuchet's nephew.
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Peak prestige has been achieved.
IMO theprestige frequently makes interesting and thoughtful posts on this forum. I often appreciate his points of view even when I do not agree with them. That said, his brain occasionally seems to take short trips without him. This seems to be one of those times.
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