ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th January 2019, 04:38 AM   #1
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
3D Printer advice.

I am thinking of expanding my business in o 3D printer parts.
At the moment I make and market a few resin conversion and detail parts for various model kits.
Switching to 3D printing would mean I can produce a greater variety of parts and also do 'bespoke' runs for people.
Plus I don't have to make and actual physical master and mess around with making moulds and mixing resin, degassing etc.

I need high level of surface detail rather than large size, most of the components are no larger than 30x30x30 mm.

I am thinking of a Stereolithography (SLA) printer rather than an FDM but I don't really know enough about it at the moment to know if that is the right way to go.

Any advice?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 10:40 AM   #2
GodMark2
Master Poster
 
GodMark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2,058
Before anything else: if you don't have extensive experience in computer 3D modeling, go take a course at your local community college. Some people (many) just don't have the right mindset to be able to use these tools to make anything useful or beautiful. Better to spend a few dozen dollars to find out before committing to a multi-hundred (or thousand) dollar machine.

If detail is your goal, SLA is definitely the way to go. But, it's pickier, messier, and more expensive. If this is for a business (so costs are deductible), it may well be worth investing in a lower-cost FDM machine first, to get the hand of using the digital tools with an easier to use, lower cost-per-run machine. Later, it allows you to advertise a range of prices for varying detail needs to customers.
__________________
Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.
GodMark2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 10:42 AM   #3
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
All I will produce with FDM are unusable lumps at the sizes I am looking to produce. I am looking at layers of no more that 25 microns on the Z axis and 40 X-Y

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 6th January 2019 at 10:47 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:02 AM   #4
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,158
If small details is your goal, then SLA printers are about the only option for you.
FDM printers simply aren't in the same class!

That said. With SLA printers you have to take a lot more care than with FDM printers, as the resin is very toxic. Something to keep in mind when setting up shop.

See this video from Maker's Muse where he explains it all.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:05 AM   #5
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,302
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
All I will produce with FDM are unusable lumps at the sizes I am looking to produce. I am looking at layers of no more that 25 microns on the Z axis and 40 X-Y
FDM clearly won't do what you want, it's too coarse and will produce a lined edge appearance for anything other than verticals or horizontals (though my son is considering experimenting with spray filler to get round that). What I've seen of sintered powder printing - I had a lengthy conversation with someone who's using this for Gauge 1 early railway rolling stock at the Warley show a couple of years ago - is that it has a particulate graininess, rather than the linear grain that FDM produces, and if it's visible I suspect it's too big for what you want. But is there any affordable technology that produces a 25 micron layer, and would it be handleable? Unless, of course, you mean 25 micron step size, which sounds more realistic.

I know it's old school, but resin casting still sounds like a better bet for what I imagine you want to do. Is this for 1/35 armour modelling?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:05 AM   #6
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 19,445
I assume this would be parts for models? Model tanks, perhaps?
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:10 AM   #7
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
FDM clearly won't do what you want, it's too coarse and will produce a lined edge appearance for anything other than verticals or horizontals (though my son is considering experimenting with spray filler to get round that). What I've seen of sintered powder printing - I had a lengthy conversation with someone who's using this for Gauge 1 early railway rolling stock at the Warley show a couple of years ago - is that it has a particulate graininess, rather than the linear grain that FDM produces, and if it's visible I suspect it's too big for what you want. But is there any affordable technology that produces a 25 micron layer, and would it be handleable? Unless, of course, you mean 25 micron step size, which sounds more realistic.

I know it's old school, but resin casting still sounds like a better bet for what I imagine you want to do. Is this for 1/35 armour modelling?

Dave
Yes, 25 micron step size.

Resin casting means having to make the master in the first place and then produce the mould which then has a limited life before the quality of the parts falls off, especially if there are any undercuts.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:13 AM   #8
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I assume this would be parts for models? Model tanks, perhaps?
Some tank stuff but I have moved away from 1.35 armour and more in to model railways.

I am looking to offer short run 'bespoke' detail kits and conversions.

I have already been researching laser cutters and engravers to produce flat card and plastic items and engraved metal parts. There the choice is not so complicated.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:16 AM   #9
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
I am looking at crossover in to my wife's line of bespoke purses and handbags.
SLA printing will let me make customised 'findings', stamps and embossers for her and third party customers that ned short runs and bespoke pieces.

SLA printing will also allow me to produce models for use in lost wax casting to make metal components.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:17 AM   #10
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,576
Don't know much about it but I recently watched this YT from Marco Reps.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:17 AM   #11
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
This is the printing package that caught my eye after many hours of research and confusion.

https://photocentricgroup.com/LCprecision1_5/
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 11:20 AM   #12
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
If small details is your goal, then SLA printers are about the only option for you.
FDM printers simply aren't in the same class!

That said. With SLA printers you have to take a lot more care than with FDM printers, as the resin is very toxic. Something to keep in mind when setting up shop.

See this video from Maker's Muse where he explains it all.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Toxicity is not a problem, it's quite benign compared to some of the chemicals I already use for making etched brass and nickel parts.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 01:53 PM   #13
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,158
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Toxicity is not a problem, it's quite benign compared to some of the chemicals I already use for making etched brass and nickel parts.
Oh. That's alright then.

Since you're already not poisoning yourself or your customers, then I guess an SLA printer would be no problem for you.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 02:05 PM   #14
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 19,445
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Some tank stuff but I have moved away from 1.35 armour and more in to model railways.

I am looking to offer short run 'bespoke' detail kits and conversions.

I have already been researching laser cutters and engravers to produce flat card and plastic items and engraved metal parts. There the choice is not so complicated.
Ooh, I love trains. Can I see some of your model railway stuff soon? Either here or the other place!
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 02:21 PM   #15
Hungry81
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,976
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
This is the printing package that caught my eye after many hours of research and confusion.

https://photocentricgroup.com/LCprecision1_5/
looks good. I aim to get a prusa i3 printer kit. they are also just about to launch a sla printer, but the print dimensions are too small for your requirements. I am interested in the one in your link, but worry about the number of consumables on SLA printers and their cost. Do you know what the lifespan of the LCD screen is and how much the replacements are?
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 04:43 PM   #16
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Ooh, I love trains. Can I see some of your model railway stuff soon? Either here or the other place!
Finished with 'the other place'
I resigned as a Mod and haven't been on for ages. I wasn't visiting anymore.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 12:13 PM   #17
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
I think I found a good printer to start with that is inexpensive but still capable of producing the level of detail I want and commercial quality output while I get the hang of things.
It will still be useful in the future too.

The Creality3D LCD-001 for £425.00 is a fully fledged SLA printer with the high definition I need.

https://creality3d.co.uk/professiona...d-lcd-001.html
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:20 PM   #18
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,158
Looks good.

Have a lot of fun with that.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 04:39 PM   #19
cjameshuff
Thinker
 
cjameshuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 197
Not so much of an issue for casting metal parts, but something to keep in mind for any other uses you have planned: the SLA resin is not terribly long-term stable. One of the reasons being that it can't be UV protected, for obvious reasons.
cjameshuff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 04:52 AM   #20
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
According to Formlabs who are leading manufacturers of SLA printer

"After being fully post-cured, the mechanical properties of a print won’t continue to change even with continued UV exposure. Using the recommend curing settings completes all of the photo-polymerization reactions and stabilizes the mechanical properties.

Direct sunlight will degrade most plastics over time.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 05:50 AM   #21
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,302
There may still be an issue if you're expecting there will be a protective layer of paint over everything. Armour modellers will normally paint everything, but railway modellers will quite often leave exposed plastic if the colour looks OK. Might be a good idea to deliberately use inappropriate colours just to make certain they get painted over.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 06:14 AM   #22
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
I don't know any seriou railway modellers that will leave plastic exposed.

Any modelling output will be white or pale grey.

There are SLA printed detail parts available. I have seen some used and know modellers that have used them.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 8th January 2019 at 06:26 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 06:46 AM   #23
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,302
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I don't know any seriou railway modellers that will leave plastic exposed.
Except for practically every RTR item of rolling stock.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 08:08 AM   #24
paulhutch
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA
Posts: 2,298
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Direct sunlight will degrade most all plastics over time.
FTFY, even the most expensive material with the most expensive additional UV breakdown inhibitors eventually degrades over decades of exposure, you can delay the degradation but not completely stop it. (this assumes there is no length limit imposed on the phrase over time)
paulhutch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 08:11 AM   #25
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Except for practically every RTR item of rolling stock.

Dave
As I say no serious modeller.
I don't know any that use anything RTR out of the box.
For that matter I don't know of much none 'trainset' RTR that is unpainted.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 8th January 2019 at 08:12 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 08:30 AM   #26
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,302
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
As I say no serious modeller.
Well then, so long as your customers meet your own exacting standards you won't get any complaints, and if you do it's obviously their fault.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 12:04 PM   #27
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,871
You might get good results with print head style, those are much better resolution than FDM and more material options than SLA. Of course they tend to start around $20,000. And only use propitiatory printer cartridges.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 12:53 PM   #28
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Well then, so long as your customers meet your own exacting standards you won't get any complaints, and if you do it's obviously their fault.

Dave
Parts I am selling are usually used by people with 'exacting standards' anyway.
Printed parts that I have seen used seem to be lasting well, longevity doesn't seem to be a problem
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2019, 06:09 AM   #29
cjameshuff
Thinker
 
cjameshuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 197
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
According to Formlabs who are leading manufacturers of SLA printer

"After being fully post-cured, the mechanical properties of a print won’t continue to change even with continued UV exposure. Using the recommend curing settings completes all of the photo-polymerization reactions and stabilizes the mechanical properties.

Direct sunlight will degrade most plastics over time.
Well, they may market it that way. Reality is full of yellowed, brittle SLA prints.

Sunlight will degrade almost all plastics over time, in spite of stabilizing and UV-absorbing additives. UV-curable resins can't include those additives and still be UV-curable.
cjameshuff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2019, 04:50 PM   #30
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
Off with my business partner to see some demonstrations of 3d printers and laser cutter/markers tomorrow.
Should be interesting.
Looking at a 3d scanner at the same time.

Busy day.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2019, 11:45 PM   #31
Matthew Ellard
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,778
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Off with my business partner to see some demonstrations of 3d printers and laser cutter/markers tomorrow.
Should be interesting. Looking at a 3d scanner at the same time.

Busy day.
Good luck. I am interested in how flat a 3D printer can make a surface and represent rivets on that surface. I understand that you will be concentrating on rail and thus you don't need to get that "cast metal" surface that tank modellers enjoy.

I have a 1/35 German train, mostly from Dragon models and few people have the room to display such a large model. My BR 52 locomotive was an old resin model from CMK. It cost $600 AUD about ten years ago.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2019, 02:44 AM   #32
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,634
that 'cast surface' that tank modellers enjoy in 1/35 is always over done. On a 1/35 loco I can't think of rivet detail s but there will be plenty of bolt heads. I would model them by using a hex punch to make them and apply individually.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:04 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.