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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 10th January 2019, 09:10 PM   #1001
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Referring to the Blues Brothers movie as evidence is a little dodgy arth.
The fact that I referred to it as a documentary wasn't a clue that it was tongue in cheek?
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:18 PM   #1002
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Way back in the early 80's the local parish in Hortonville WI had 12 nuns all qualified as gradeschool teachers.

I had heard that half of the staff of the church run gradeschool by the mid 90's were not nuns anymore. Teachers were hired from other areas to fill vacancies. Parents did not like the change.

I knew many of the kids and they never said anything about abusive teachers or nuns
Fr. Paul would never permit such thing in a small town. I liked him even if most of what he taught or preached was lost on me.

I went to the public school across the street from the Catholic school thankfully. But the kids from the smaller school really were better at math and languages than us going into HS. Sciences they knew nothing on the average.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:48 PM   #1003
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I had nuns teach me in Primary School, and did not witness any brutality. Just stupid ideas and scorn. But I guess I learnt the basics okay. Teaching brothers in Secondary Schools were certainly brutal (Christian Brothers worse than Marist Brothers) with the cane and strap, but I’m sure there were many lay teachers who matched them.

The unparalleled evil of sexual abuse of students is another matter altogether
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:53 PM   #1004
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I had nuns teach me in Primary School, and did not witness any brutality. Just stupid ideas and scorn. But I guess I learnt the basics okay. Teaching brothers in Secondary Schools were certainly brutal (Christian Brothers worse than Marist Brothers) with the cane and strap, but I’m sure there were many lay teachers who matched them.

The unparalleled evil of sexual abuse of students is another matter altogether
Catholic school nuns have a reputation for being especially brutal (in part, I think, due to the movie I referenced), but it's almost certainly only a minority. Teachers in my completely secular primary and high school had no hesitation in using the cane on badly-behaved students.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:00 PM   #1005
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Catholic school nuns have a reputation for being especially brutal (in part, I think, due to the movie I referenced), but it's almost certainly only a minority. Teachers in my completely secular primary and high school had no hesitation in using the cane on badly-behaved students.
In a secular high-school, a female teach smashed a yardstick on my head.

In her defence:

(a) she was very sorry afterwards;
(b) really didn't intend to make contact; and,
(c) I'm pretty sure I deserved it.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure that stuff wasn't the exclusive preserve of nuns.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:56 PM   #1006
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The fact that I referred to it as a documentary wasn't a clue that it was tongue in cheek?

So was my answer arth. Maybe I should have put a smiley face on it.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:03 PM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So was my answer arth. Maybe I should have put a smiley face on it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:30 AM   #1008
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:43 AM   #1009
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WRT this letter

sent by Fr. John Pohlen, who ran the Tekakwitha Indian Mission in Sisseton, South Dakota, offering to 'sell' a child for ten dollars[1] and the efforts of the RCC and state government to avoid responsibility for the consequences of their policies, does anyone have anything comment to make?

The letter says:
Quote:
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Seely,

Thank you very kindly for your donation of 10.00 for my little Indians. Yours is the first invitation that was ever extended to one of our papooses [Native American children] to come and spend the vacation somewhere. We have a few little boys and girls who have noone at all interested whether they live or die or come and go.

I would send a little boy of six years or older or a little girl whatever you prefer. These Indian children are very little trouble, especially the one I have in mind. If you really mean it, I will see that we get him ready; you may have him any time you desire. I am not making any inquiries about you, because it takes a good person to make an offer as you did.

Please, let me know.

With kindest regards,

Father John
The boy that Malcolm and Suzanne Seely wound up adopting is now 71 years old (as of March 2018). Dennis Isaac Seely spoke in a phone interview last year that he was an infant in 1946 when he was forcibly taken from his mother, a Dakota Sioux woman living on the Lake Traverse Reservation in Sisseton, close to the North Dakota-Minnesota border:
Quote:
My mother had gone out to dance that night, and this woman was babysitting me… These two men drove up in front of her house, knocked on the door and I was in her arms…

This woman tried to hold these people back, and they punched her in the head and knocked her backwards on to the floor… Then they took me out of her arms… ​
Seely later pieced together the details of his early life from speaking with relatives and the family friend who was babysitting the night he was kidnapped. He says when his mother returned home, the men warned her and her friend that they faced arrest if they came looking for him at the orphanage. The women went anyway, Seely says, and were thrown in prison for a week. Seely lived in the “papoose house” at the mission for the next five years.
Pohlen ran the orphanage while Seely lived there. According to Seely and several others who joined in a 2010 class action lawsuit against the Catholic Diocese of Sioux Falls, Pohlen not only sexually abused the children himself, but sold them to people who wanted to acquire the children permanently or even “borrow” them as part of a sinister system of trial adoptions. (Pohlen died in 1969 at the age of 83.)

Two dozen former occupants of the orphanage joined the lawsuit, which was ultimately dismissed in 2011. They sued the Catholic Diocese of Sioux Falls and several religious orders over alleged sexual, physical and emotional abuse committed by 15 named Catholic clergymen and nuns between 1941 and 1982. One of the plaintiffs alleges that when she was six years old in 1952: “she was sexually abused by many of the potential adoptive families that [Pohlen], in his capacity as the head of the Orphanage, sent her to visit.” Pohlen’s accusers say he abused little boys and girls, both in the “papoose house” and in his own private quarters on the grounds of the mission.

In a statement, a spokesperson for Pohlen’s order, the Central United States Province of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate, told us:
Everything we know about Fr. Pohlen suggests that he worked tirelessly, and at considerable personal sacrifice, to improve the lives of Native American children and others in the Sisseton community. It appears that he was well-respected among the Native American community of Sisseton as well. We have no information that would indicate that Fr. Pohlen ever exploited or facilitated the sexual abuse of Native American children through trial adoptions, permanent adoptions, participation in visits or vacations with local families, or otherwise. ​

The lawsuit was dismissed due to a law passed in South Dakota in 2010 that restricts the ability of victims of sexual abuse from filing suit after age 40. The law was written by a SD lawyer, Steven Smith, who numbers the Congregation of Priests of the Sacred Heart (defendant in approximately fifteen sexual abuse suits) among his clients.

Seely says otherwise. In one incident, he says Pohlen — who would have been 65 years old at the time — sexually abused Seely, who was then a four-year-old boy, tricking him with the promise of a lollipop.




[1] Well it was 1951 and the US didn't exactly value 'Indians' highly.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:58 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Catholic school nuns have a reputation for being especially brutal (in part, I think, due to the movie I referenced), but it's almost certainly only a minority. Teachers in my completely secular primary and high school had no hesitation in using the cane on badly-behaved students.
According to my mother, the nuns teaching at her primary school weren't all too nice. She told me that my grandmother used to refer to them as 'the bitches of mercy'.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:46 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
WRT this letter
https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ab&oe=5CB6856C
sent by Fr. John Pohlen, who ran the Tekakwitha Indian Mission in Sisseton, South Dakota, offering to 'sell' a child for ten dollars[1] and the efforts of the RCC and state government to avoid responsibility for the consequences of their policies, does anyone have anything comment to make?

The letter says:

The boy that Malcolm and Suzanne Seely wound up adopting is now 71 years old (as of March 2018). Dennis Isaac Seely spoke in a phone interview last year that he was an infant in 1946 when he was forcibly taken from his mother, a Dakota Sioux woman living on the Lake Traverse Reservation in Sisseton, close to the North Dakota-Minnesota border:


Seely later pieced together the details of his early life from speaking with relatives and the family friend who was babysitting the night he was kidnapped. He says when his mother returned home, the men warned her and her friend that they faced arrest if they came looking for him at the orphanage. The women went anyway, Seely says, and were thrown in prison for a week. Seely lived in the “papoose house” at the mission for the next five years.
Pohlen ran the orphanage while Seely lived there. According to Seely and several others who joined in a 2010 class action lawsuit against the Catholic Diocese of Sioux Falls, Pohlen not only sexually abused the children himself, but sold them to people who wanted to acquire the children permanently or even “borrow” them as part of a sinister system of trial adoptions. (Pohlen died in 1969 at the age of 83.)

Two dozen former occupants of the orphanage joined the lawsuit, which was ultimately dismissed in 2011. They sued the Catholic Diocese of Sioux Falls and several religious orders over alleged sexual, physical and emotional abuse committed by 15 named Catholic clergymen and nuns between 1941 and 1982. One of the plaintiffs alleges that when she was six years old in 1952: “she was sexually abused by many of the potential adoptive families that [Pohlen], in his capacity as the head of the Orphanage, sent her to visit.” Pohlen’s accusers say he abused little boys and girls, both in the “papoose house” and in his own private quarters on the grounds of the mission.

In a statement, a spokesperson for Pohlen’s order, the Central United States Province of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate, told us:
Everything we know about Fr. Pohlen suggests that he worked tirelessly, and at considerable personal sacrifice, to improve the lives of Native American children and others in the Sisseton community. It appears that he was well-respected among the Native American community of Sisseton as well. We have no information that would indicate that Fr. Pohlen ever exploited or facilitated the sexual abuse of Native American children through trial adoptions, permanent adoptions, participation in visits or vacations with local families, or otherwise. ​

The lawsuit was dismissed due to a law passed in South Dakota in 2010 that restricts the ability of victims of sexual abuse from filing suit after age 40. The law was written by a SD lawyer, Steven Smith, who numbers the Congregation of Priests of the Sacred Heart (defendant in approximately fifteen sexual abuse suits) among his clients.

Seely says otherwise. In one incident, he says Pohlen — who would have been 65 years old at the time — sexually abused Seely, who was then a four-year-old boy, tricking him with the promise of a lollipop.




[1] Well it was 1951 and the US didn't exactly value 'Indians' highly.
Horrible. I use the hashtag #lawfulevil on twitter for stuff like this. Absolute, stomach-wrenching evil.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:49 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are still nuns. Nun brutality is well-established, as illustrated in the documentary film The Blues Brothers.
In addition to their physical brutality, they were also very mentally abusive.

I tell people, one thing I learned from the big fat nuns in Catholic elementary is that beating, shame and humiliation is not an effective approach for teaching penmanship.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:11 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I knew many of the kids and they never said anything about abusive teachers or nuns
The Big Fat Nun who taught 2nd grade when I was in school was notorious among the kids for being abusive. All the kids were scared of her. I certainly was.

Amazingly, the parents were mostly unaware, either because the kids weren't talking or, when they did, they weren't taken as seriously as needed.

This all came to a head a couple years after I went through. A neighbor girl was in the class, and had meltdowns every day about going to school, because she had heard what the older kids were saying and was scared. It took a while to figure it all out, but eventually her mom discovered why, and what was actually going on. Big Fat Nun did not last long after that.

I am actually very proud of my neighbor. Through her actions, a serious evil was removed from our community.

There aren't many people in the world that I actually hate, but Big Fat Nun is probably the only one. What she did to us (we were 8 years old) is unforgivable. As a parent of two kids who have been 8 years old, I can't fathom a teacher or anyone treating them the way we were treated. I don't know if Big Fat Nun is alive, but if she is, I would like to send her a note to tell her how awful she was. She is the reason I wish there were a hell so she could spend eternity there. Lacking that, I would be happy to have her live the rest of her life miserable with the guilt of what she did to us.

Sorry, no, it's not something to "get over" and I'm not going to forgive (I don't even know what that means). What was done was done, and I cannot forget and it always is part of me.

For the most part, the nuns that taught at our school were either abusive, or blithering idiots (sometimes both). In 5th grade, the principal had to come in to teach the math to the high ability group because the nun didn't know it well enough.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:56 AM   #1014
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I do not doubt in the least there are a million bad experiences with religious schools. It appears the kids in my old home town got lucky.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:17 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I do not doubt in the least there are a million bad experiences with religious schools. It appears the kids in my old home town got lucky.
Then again, remember that it doesn't take a lot of bad nuns to be a problem. If only 10% of nuns are evil, you may not encounter one routinely. But the problem is, the evil ones you do encounter are most standing out.

It's the same as everything. The problem nuns stand out, and are the problem. The good nuns get tainted with the same brush. However, that's what happens. The good nuns were the ones that needed to clean up the bad, and they didn't.

One bad apple spoils the whole bunch, yes. That's why it is contingent on the good apples to get rid of the bad. The church failed to do that, and are paying the consequences of it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:43 PM   #1016
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Then again, remember that it doesn't take a lot of bad nuns to be a problem. If only 10% of nuns are evil, you may not encounter one routinely. But the problem is, the evil ones you do encounter are most standing out.

It's the same as everything. The problem nuns stand out, and are the problem. The good nuns get tainted with the same brush. However, that's what happens. The good nuns were the ones that needed to clean up the bad, and they didn't.

One bad apple spoils the whole bunch, yes. That's why it is contingent on the good apples to get rid of the bad. The church failed to do that, and are paying the consequences of it.

This is what we have been seeing over and over again when the revelations about the abuse by Catholic Priests, Brothers, and others has been exposed. Others, not guilty of the crime of abuse itself are, non the less, guilty of keeping it hidden.

I think the answer to the question of why lies in the phenomena of "loving the Church", seemingly common among Catholic clergy.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:07 PM   #1017
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is what we have been seeing over and over again when the revelations about the abuse by Catholic Priests, Brothers, and others has been exposed. Others, not guilty of the crime of abuse itself are, non the less, guilty of keeping it hidden.

I think the answer to the question of why lies in the phenomena of "loving the Church", seemingly common among Catholic clergy.
It's not unique to the church. See also police, where other cops cover for the bad ones, and will lie to protect them.

And many other groups will do it, too. Instead of calling out bad actors, they get covered up or defended.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:46 AM   #1018
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are still nuns. Nun brutality is well-established, as illustrated in the documentary film The Blues Brothers.
Are the Blues Brothers an abusive order of teaching monks?
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:49 PM   #1019
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It's not unique to the church. See also police, where other cops cover for the bad ones, and will lie to protect them.

And many other groups will do it, too. Instead of calling out bad actors, they get covered up or defended.

Ok but I don't see the relevance as we are talking about the Catholic Church here. Why some ordained behaved so badly and why others kept the lid on it.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:11 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Are the Blues Brothers an abusive order of teaching monks?
If that was a serious post, I suggest you look up the movie and find out what the rest of us already know.

If it was meant to be a joke, I do not think it was very funny. A post that says "See how stupid Craig B is." I do not think is very funny.
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Old 14th January 2019, 11:29 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If that was a serious post, I suggest you look up the movie and find out what the rest of us already know.

If it was meant to be a joke, I do not think it was very funny. A post that says "See how stupid Craig B is." I do not think is very funny.
People who don't share your taste in humour aren't necessarily stupid.
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Old 14th January 2019, 01:57 PM   #1022
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Interesting lack of posts by the Catholic Church faithful on this thread. We did have The Big Dog making some yelps earlier on about peripheral issues, but that is all. No - "This is the One True Church and the Pope is the man" - kind of stuff.

Perhaps the answer to this question, (apart from the obvious one that Catholics are very thin on the ground in this forum), is Catholics don't tend to get steamed up in defence of their faith.

It has long been an observation of mine that Catholics fit in well with the irreligious. In all male workplaces they swear along with the rest and even share jokes at the expense of religion. We have many examples illustrating the scant regard Catholics have towards their church direction. The use of birth control is one such example and the recent referenda endorsing same sex marriage in the very Catholic Ireland another.

"Catholicism is like a club" has been the observation of others I have heard. You are born into this club and there is really no way out. No strong religious drive needed, you just go through the motions.
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Old 14th January 2019, 03:20 PM   #1023
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Correct Sir.
I live in a predominantly Catholic country and the splinter sects show more than baptism, wedding and funeral church activities.

Mainstream faithful are quite lax in actual practice but will anger if challenged on it.

I was able to skip all but the pre wedding required courses by just watching my wife arrange a document saying it happened.

I encouraged her to by barely participating on the one and assuring her he got his 100 pesos, we get the paper signed.
He did and we did too.

I had to play along in the ceremony part but after that nothing. Her mother insisted on all the stuff.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:15 AM   #1024
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/n....co/J3rW3QCwIJ

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Old 18th January 2019, 01:40 PM   #1025
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Completely ignoring doctrine and dogma an entire lifetime while making some efforts to do the easy stuff is more than accepted anymore.

I think the patent expired too so if you want your own splinter cult based on RCC traditions go right ahead.
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Old 19th January 2019, 09:52 PM   #1026
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Completely ignoring doctrine and dogma an entire lifetime while making some efforts to do the easy stuff is more than accepted anymore.

I think the patent expired too so if you want your own splinter cult based on RCC traditions go right ahead.

Given the 40,000 different flavours of Christianity that exist today there must be some that borrow heaps from Catholicism. Mind you the majority of other versions have the Catholic Church as number one on their **** list.
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Old 19th January 2019, 10:23 PM   #1027
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Interesting lack of posts by the Catholic Church faithful on this thread. We did have The Big Dog making some yelps earlier on about peripheral issues, but that is all. No - "This is the One True Church and the Pope is the man" - kind of stuff.

Perhaps the answer to this question, (apart from the obvious one that Catholics are very thin on the ground in this forum), is Catholics don't tend to get steamed up in defence of their faith.

It has long been an observation of mine that Catholics fit in well with the irreligious. In all male workplaces they swear along with the rest and even share jokes at the expense of religion. We have many examples illustrating the scant regard Catholics have towards their church direction. The use of birth control is one such example and the recent referenda endorsing same sex marriage in the very Catholic Ireland another.

"Catholicism is like a club" has been the observation of others I have heard. You are born into this club and there is really no way out. No strong religious drive needed, you just go through the motions.
Yes and no. I was born into not just a catholic family, but a devout one. Priests, nuns and brothers, including my father, fleetingly (Brother Clement). I was an Altar Boy (unmolested). I worked things out at about 12 and that was it for me. I have cousins who pray every day.

By contrast my dear Irish friends do not go to mass and no doubt commit many sins, yet they do consider themselves believers. This does not diminish them in any way.

In my view, anyone who practices their faith privately is fine by me. It is those who try and impose their religious beliefs on others, like Abbott and Morrison, who I have utter contempt for.
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Old 20th January 2019, 05:27 PM   #1028
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
In my view, anyone who practices their faith privately is fine by me. It is those who try and impose their religious beliefs on others, like Abbott and Morrison, who I have utter contempt for.
I'm going to say that I also have a problem who use their religious institutions to commit or cover up crimes, something that the Catholic Church has been doing for quite a while.
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Old 21st January 2019, 12:33 AM   #1029
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm going to say that I also have a problem who use their religious institutions to commit or cover up crimes, something that the Catholic Church has been doing for quite a while.
I have two issues with this
1. "For quite a while" probably means since it was founded.
2. I have a problem with them wanting (and getting) exemptions from obeying the law that the rest of us have to follow. I am talking about outside the confines of a place of worship such as schools.
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Old 21st January 2019, 12:50 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I have two issues with this
1. "For quite a while" probably means since it was founded.
2. I have a problem with them wanting (and getting) exemptions from obeying the law that the rest of us have to follow. I am talking about outside the confines of a place of worship such as schools.
Yes, the whole idea of "canon law" bothers me.
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:30 AM   #1031
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, the whole idea of "canon law" bothers me.
Blame George Lucas.
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:53 PM   #1032
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes and no. I was born into not just a catholic family, but a devout one. Priests, nuns and brothers, including my father, fleetingly (Brother Clement). I was an Altar Boy (unmolested). I worked things out at about 12 and that was it for me. I have cousins who pray every day.

By contrast my dear Irish friends do not go to mass and no doubt commit many sins, yet they do consider themselves believers. This does not diminish them in any way.

In my view, anyone who practices their faith privately is fine by me. It is those who try and impose their religious beliefs on others, like Abbott and Morrison, who I have utter contempt for.

Are your observations similar to mine regarding how well Catholics jell with the non believing community they may be surrounded by? To me this is most striking in an all male working environment, where extreme profanity is the norm in conversation. Other Christians generally just don't fit in well.
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Old 24th January 2019, 01:48 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Given the 40,000 different flavours of Christianity that exist today there must be some that borrow heaps from Catholicism. Mind you the majority of other versions have the Catholic Church as number one on their **** list.
Even both at once!
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:18 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Even both at once!

I know in the chequered history of the RCC there have been times when more than Pope has laid claim to the funny hat*, but is there more than one RCC today?



* Always wondered how comfortable modern day Catholics are with the succession. Does some doubt niggle away at some that the "shoes of the fisherman" are on the wrong feet?
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:42 PM   #1035
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Here in very Catholic Mexico even a former Hitler youth Pope didn't seem to bother anyone. Few know or care about forgotten (by them) history.
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:01 PM   #1036
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That surprises me little.

I wonder if said "Hitler youth Pope" will get canonised at some time in the future? It is a given that all Popes get to be saints isn't it?

The RCC has lots of saints that are something of an embarrassment to the Church today, but that is one of those issues not spoken about. I wonder if some of those dicey Popes in the past got the halo?
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:07 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
That surprises me little.

I wonder if said "Hitler youth Pope" will get canonised at some time in the future? It is a given that all Popes get to be saints isn't it?

The RCC has lots of saints that are something of an embarrassment to the Church today, but that is one of those issues not spoken about. I wonder if some of those dicey Popes in the past got the halo?
He'll have to die first, of course.
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:49 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
He'll have to die first, of course.
It is highly likely that he will.

ETA: If he doesn't he will be the first human to whom sainthood is appropriate.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:41 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I know in the chequered history of the RCC there have been times when more than Pope has laid claim to the funny hat*, but is there more than one RCC today?
Yeah, there are a bunch. But I think that one of particular interest to you might be the Sedevacantists, which is a breakaway group who thought that the Vatican II reforms made the church too liberal. You may know them as the group that Mel Gibson was raised in.
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:37 PM   #1040
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Yup, I was going to mention Mel's dad, for whom the pope is not sufficiently Catholic. Also geocentrist Robert Sungenis, who is still apparently within the fold despite having been ordered by the church to suppress is anti-Semitism.

ETA: Wiki link to Hutton Gibson, who is now 100 years old!
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