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Old 30th December 2018, 09:03 AM   #1
Nessie
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The UK has a migrant crisis....!

This is apparently a migrant crisis for the UK, for which the Home Secretary has had to cut short his Christmas holidays to deal with;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46714553

"More than 220 people have attempted the crossing in small boats since November."

Yes, a whole 220 people in 7 weeks, or about 32 people a week. In once case, 6 Iranian men arrived at once! Apparently there is "'Grave concern'.

Apparently this massive uncontrollable fearful influx of immigrants is due to the unseasonably calm weather in the English Channel.

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Old 30th December 2018, 09:06 AM   #2
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The weather will pick up soon and put an end to this nonsense.
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Old 30th December 2018, 09:12 AM   #3
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I am thinking of moving abroad to escape this crisis.
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Old 30th December 2018, 09:43 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am thinking of moving abroad to escape this crisis.
With that logic, you should be in the Government.

Well played sir.
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Old 30th December 2018, 10:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
.....
Apparently this massive uncontrollable fearful influx of immigrants is due to the unseasonably calm weather in the English Channel.

This account makes the point that there are two issues:

1/ This is a new phenomenon, possibly supported by organized crime, and could expand if not thwarted.
2/ The Channel is a major shipping lane, and people in rafts and fishing boats are risking their lives.
Quote:
The BBC reported that after arresting two smugglers earlier this year, police compared crossing the channel in a small boat to “trying to cross the M25 at rush-hour on foot,”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.2d32b76614d1

It sounds like the Brits don't want to see bodies washing ashore. You think they should pretend there's no problem, or what?
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:11 AM   #6
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There is a problem, not a crisis that needs the Home Secretary to be recalled and certain press to have a field day whipping up hysteria.

People have got here and claimed asylum and been people smuggled for years now. This is not something new.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:23 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a problem, not a crisis that needs the Home Secretary to be recalled and certain press to have a field day whipping up hysteria.

People have got here and claimed asylum and been people smuggled for years now. This is not something new.
Yes I can see that is not a problem now, but about 10 years ago tens of thousands of illegal immigrants were arriving in Australia by boat and hundreds were dying in the process. That has been stopped as boats are now turned back.

Given how narrow th channel is, it seems wise to nip this in the bud.
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:21 PM   #8
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Your answer is simple; build a slat fence wall thingy all the way along the south coast from Land's End to Lowestoft. Problem solved.

Glad I could help
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:26 PM   #9
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I see that Operation Sea Lion has been resumed, then?
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:30 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I see that Operation Sea Lion has been resumed, then?

Outstanding!
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I see that Operation Sea Lion has been resumed, then?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...us-2015-influx

"... 7,444 people claimed asylum in the third quarter of this year, of whom people crossing the Channel made up a very small percentage. Far larger numbers arrive by plane seeking asylum from countries like Uganda and DRC"

They are flying here, it is more like The Battle of Britain.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I see that Operation Sea Lion has been resumed, then?
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...us-2015-influx

"... 7,444 people claimed asylum in the third quarter of this year, of whom people crossing the Channel made up a very small percentage. Far larger numbers arrive by plane seeking asylum from countries like Uganda and DRC"

They are flying here, it is more like The Battle of Britain.
I was obviously joking. But the Brexiters seem to be thinking that standing on the cliffs at Dover, wedging a big cigar in their mouths, and making V-signs towards France will hold back the Hun invaders. Plucky little Britain once again.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The weather will pick up soon and put an end to this nonsense.
I think that's the main reason for the grave concern. People are going to die trying to get here.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:09 PM   #14
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We have one boat to stop them with.

All they have to do is coordinate a bit, send three or four boats over at once and we are scuppered.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:10 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...us-2015-influx

"... 7,444 people claimed asylum in the third quarter of this year, of whom people crossing the Channel made up a very small percentage. Far larger numbers arrive by plane seeking asylum from countries like Uganda and DRC"

They are flying here, it is more like The Battle of Britain.
It's difficult to tell if your joke is serious or not , but Operation Sea Lion was a part of what became known as the Battle of Britain that was never executed.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:40 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We have one boat to stop them with.

All they have to do is coordinate a bit, send three or four boats over at once and we are scuppered.
Or buy a Chunnel train ticket.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:52 PM   #17
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I am not posting anything serious about this alleged "crisis".

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8703551.html

"The situation on the English Channel is indeed a ‘major incident’..."

Rubbish.
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Old 30th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think that's the main reason for the grave concern. People are going to die trying to get here.
I've often wondered if the same remorse is felt if someone dies in whatever hellhole conditions they live in that makes them want to chance it?
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Old 30th December 2018, 02:27 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I've often wondered if the same remorse is felt if someone dies in whatever hellhole conditions they live in that makes them want to chance it?
France has being going down hill for a couple of decades now but it's not that bad.
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Old 30th December 2018, 02:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
France has being going down hill for a couple of decades now but it's not that bad.
Well met :9.
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Old 30th December 2018, 03:47 PM   #21
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When there's over 1000 asylum seekers arriving every day they can call it a "crisis".
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Old 30th December 2018, 04:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
France has being going down hill for a couple of decades now but it's not that bad.
Said as a joke I know, but refugees already have asylum in France, Germany, Italy and so on. They desire to settle in the UK, but this is irrelevant.

The UK, like every other nation, has every right to restrict people smugglers and deport people who break immigration laws. And to stop a trickle before it becomes a flood, as it did in Australia.
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Old 30th December 2018, 04:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes I can see that is not a problem now, but about 10 years ago tens of thousands of illegal immigrants were arriving in Australia by boat and hundreds were dying in the process. That has been stopped as boats are now turned back.
Quote:
The United Nations has called on Australia to immediately evacuate its offshore detention centres to prevent an unfolding health crisis.

...

Catherine Stubberfield, a spokeswoman for the UNHCR in Canberra, said healthcare was “collapsing” at the centres.

She said a pre-teenage girl doused herself with petrol in a suicide attempt last month, and remained on Nauru despite a doctor’s advice to have her evacuated.
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ention-centres

Quote:
Médecins Sans Frontières has confirmed it has officially been forced to end its mental health work on Nauru, leaving local and refugee patients behind in a situation it said was “beyond desperate”.

MSF was given its marching orders on Friday and told to cease its services on Saturday. Several days of attempted negotiations failed to sway the Nauruan government.

The organisation said: “MSF is deeply concerned for the health and wellbeing of its patients and describes the mental health situation of asylum seekers and refugees on the island as ‘beyond desperate’,” it said in a statement on Wednesday.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...yond-desperate

Quote:
Twelve refugees and asylum seekers have died while in Australian immigration detention on Manus Island and Nauru. On World Refugee Day, Guardian Australia acknowledges those who have died and begins a project to record lives lost in offshore detention

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ustralias-care

Quote:
The most dangerous mistruth in current Australian politics is that in order for lives to be saved at sea, other people – accused of no crime – must be indefinitely and arbitrarily punished offshore.

Asserted with increasing confidence as fact, this unproven link is used to justify Australia’s brutal regime of offshore detention as a necessary condition for a policy that, however harsh, ultimately serves a greater good.
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-self-delusion

...Australia is not the country that anyone should be trying to emulate in regards to any alleged "migrant crisis."
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Old 30th December 2018, 04:17 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
All irrelevant to my post. I was talking about people smuggling by dangerous boat journeys, which have been stopped. You are talking about Nauru and Manus, which have very few people detained today. Offshore detention, which I believe was justified in the circumstances, is no longer necessary, because the boats have been stopped.

Further, as I’m sure you are aware, Australia takes in a large number of refugees, proportionally to its population, every year. We just draw the line at people smuggling.
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Old 30th December 2018, 04:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
All irrelevant to my post. I was talking about people smuggling by dangerous boat journeys, which have been stopped. You are talking about Nauru and Manus, which have very few people detained today. Offshore detention, which I believe was justified in the circumstances, is no longer necessary, because the boats have been stopped.
...the purpose of the cruel, disgusting, abhorrent offshore detention camps was to "stop the boats." That was why you supported it, was it not?

Quote:
Further, as I’m sure you are aware, Australia takes in a large number of refugees, proportionally to its population, every year. We just draw the line at people smuggling.
Irrelevant.
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Old 30th December 2018, 05:04 PM   #26
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Are people dying where the refugees are fleeing from?

Just trying to figure out if "people are dying(!)" is actually a concern or if people dying is just a nice sounding reason to be callous.

Because that's some twisted logic...

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Old 30th December 2018, 07:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are people dying where the refugees are fleeing from?

Just trying to figure out if "people are dying(!)" is actually a concern or if people dying is just a nice sounding reason to be callous.

Because that's some twisted logic...
It's generally the latter with these types of things. I'm reminded of bans on feeding homeless people justified under the banner of the food not being subject to health dept code inspections.
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Old 30th December 2018, 07:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's generally the latter with these types of things. I'm reminded of bans on feeding homeless people justified under the banner of the food not being subject to health dept code inspections.
The basic idea is that solution X stops people from being perceived problem Y. If X kills those people, through starvation, exposure, repatriation to regimes which immediately kill them, then the people are no longer problem Y.

Problem solved.
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Old 31st December 2018, 03:23 AM   #29
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It is day 3 of the main news reports being this supposed "crisis". The emphasis has shifted onto "people smuggling", but I think an important point is being missed.

Under EU and UN laws, someone who wants to claim asylum can make their way through multiple countries to the one they want to claim asylum in. Under EU laws, a refugee who is looking to get work/residency, has to do so in the first country they come to. So, if someone from Iran arrives in Greece, but states they are not looking for work or for residency then they can move on, to their objective of claiming asylum in the UK.

So, how do they get to the UK? Some have the money and use the people traffickers. But there are different types of people trafficker. There are criminal gangs who are enslaving vulnerable people like migrants and then use them for work. There are also others who will make some money and just help the migrants continue on with their journey.

That means when a boat crosses the Channel with a group of Iranian men, who are looking to claim asylum in the UK and have paid someone with a boat to bring them to the UK, they are not being trafficked in the usual sense of that word.
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Old 31st December 2018, 03:23 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
The basic idea is that solution X stops people from being perceived problem Y. If X kills those people, through starvation, exposure, repatriation to regimes which immediately kill them, then the people are no longer problem Y.

Problem solved.
Tangentially related to the twisted logic surrounding no-fly zones, where presumably it's considered unsporting for a vicious regime to bomb people but fine for it to use tanks and artillery.
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Old 31st December 2018, 03:28 AM   #31
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are people dying where the refugees are fleeing from?

Just trying to figure out if "people are dying(!)" is actually a concern or if people dying is just a nice sounding reason to be callous.

Because that's some twisted logic...
In many of the countries, civilians are fleeing fear of death. But, some were more at risk of death than others. A poor Syrian who lived in an area ruled by ISIS and who then fell foul of one of the local leaders is at massive risk. A rich Syrian, favoured by Sadat, who was sheltered from ISIS but decides to leave to try and start a new life abroad is not at such a risk.

The people are dying could also be referring to dying during the attempts to get to Europe, especially the risky sea crossings.
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Old 31st December 2018, 03:47 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In many of the countries, civilians are fleeing fear of death. But, some were more at risk of death than others.
From the numbers it appears that the vast majority of people at risk are healthy men in their 20s and 30s with between £10K and £30K in their pockets to give to people smugglers. I guess the women, children and elderly just stay and tough it out.
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Old 31st December 2018, 04:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...the purpose of the cruel, disgusting, abhorrent offshore detention camps was to "stop the boats." That was why you supported it, was it not?
It works; its a deterrent.

Word gets back to the people who are thinking about paying to be smuggled that even if their boat doesn't get caught and turned back, they WILL be incarcerated in an offshore island and will NEVER set foot on Australia. Then they will then be sent back.

Not saying its right, or a good thing or proper, just saying it seems to have worked.

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
Irrelevant.
No, it is actually very relevant.

Australia does more than its share when it come to taking refugees. It takes between 5000 and 6000 refugees per year. That is a very big number given the population of 25m. USA takes 52,000 with a population of 327m - to match that rate, USA would need to up their rate of refugee acceptance to between 65,000 and 80,000.

I see no reason why the Aussies should simply allow boat-people to shortcut the system. I don't agree with the offshore detention thing, they should rescue them, supply medical and humanitarian aid, and take them straight back to Vietnam or Laos or Cambodia or wherever they have come from.
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It works; its a deterrent.

Word gets back to the people who are thinking about paying to be smuggled that even if their boat doesn't get caught and turned back, they WILL be incarcerated in an offshore island and will NEVER set foot on Australia. Then they will then be sent back.

Not saying its right, or a good thing or proper, just saying it seems to have worked.
No, it hasn't worked. The boats do keep coming just that they are not reported to the public. Otherwise the Navy would not need to keep constantly patrolling. Thank Abbott and Dutton for the "on-water security" news blackout, which is why you rarely hear about it.

Quote:
I see no reason why the Aussies should simply allow boat-people to shortcut the system.
There is no short-cutting because there is no queue with numbers applied to refugees. Refugees are processed on a needs basis, not order of arrival. And we are more than capable of processing many refugees at once, not just one at a time.

Quote:
I don't agree with the offshore detention thing, they should rescue them, supply medical and humanitarian aid, and take them straight back to Vietnam or Laos or Cambodia or wherever they have come from.
Indonesia and now West Irian. Closest contact points for the shortest trips.

There is an even cheaper solution than turn-backs: Offshore processing. Process potential refugees before they even get on a boat, which kills off any profit for people-smuggling. But that got scuppered in court a few years ago...by the ALP, if I recall.
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not posting anything serious about this alleged "crisis".

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8703551.html

"The situation on the English Channel is indeed a ‘major incident’..."

Rubbish.

Be reasonable, Nessie. The Home Secretary had to cut short his £800 per night safari holiday. Major tragedy.
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
When there's over 1000 asylum seekers arriving every day they can call it a "crisis".
There was a bunch of Iranian asylum-seekers in Finland who demanded to return home as they couldn't stand the cold climate. The newspapers showed them kissing the ground on their return. So much for being in grave danger.
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was a bunch of Iranian asylum-seekers in Finland who demanded to return home as they couldn't stand the cold climate. The newspapers showed them kissing the ground on their return. So much for being in grave danger.
Given the hell that is about to rain down on Syria yet again following Donny's stupid announcements, where are these people now and where are they going next?
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
All irrelevant to my post. I was talking about people smuggling by dangerous boat journeys, which have been stopped. You are talking about Nauru and Manus, which have very few people detained today. Offshore detention, which I believe was justified in the circumstances, is no longer necessary, because the boats have been stopped.

Further, as I’m sure you are aware, Australia takes in a large number of refugees, proportionally to its population, every year. We just draw the line at people smuggling.
Australia is not a good analogy as it is next door to the huge Asian continent. The UK is not.

Bear in mind Australia as we know it today originated as a plan to send British stock to the colonies, so it being 'white' is a pure accident of history and confers no inherent right to claim ownership of it.
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We have one boat to stop them with.

All they have to do is coordinate a bit, send three or four boats over at once and we are scuppered.
Let Clarkson help!

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Old 31st December 2018, 12:42 PM   #40
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Apparently two border force cutters are being recalled to the UK from somewhere foreign.

So that's alright then.
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