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Old 9th January 2019, 03:13 AM   #241
Nessie
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
FTFY.

Do you seriously believe that all asylum seekers are trying to reach other countries because they are in fear of their lives?
That is what asylum is, as opposed to immigrants who arrive for other reasons.

If someone arrives in the UK and claims they are in fear of their life, they are seeking refugee status to remain in the UK. Here is the UK government website;

https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum

"You must apply for asylum if you want to stay in the UK as a refugee.

To be eligible you must have left your country and be unable to go back because you fear persecution.

Apply for a visa if you want to come to the UK for another reason (for example to work, study or remain with family). If youíre already in the UK and want to remain with family living here, apply for a family of a settled person visa.

You should apply when you arrive in the UK or as soon as you think it would be unsafe for you to return to your own country. Your application is more likely to be denied if you wait."
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:15 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Assume for one minute you're right, which you are certainly not; what difference does it make?

1) A person claims asylum, turns up and is grant asylum, all fully legal.

2) A person claims asylum, turns up and is granted asylum although somewhere in there is a technical illegality that is not acted upon.

Practically speaking it's the same thing.
Indeed they are, which is what I was pointing out, since it is virtually impossible for many people to arrive in the UK legally as an asylum seekers.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:18 AM   #243
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And I should also add that our nation has benefitted greatly from immigration and multi-culturalism, but we do have the right to control our immigration system. I have no problems with turning boats back and thwarting people smugglers.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:19 AM   #244
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Just FYI, we have asylum seekers coming into Australia from many of the war-stricken countries as well: Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and and Sudan and other African countries. But very rarely directly from those countries.

Our "boat people" (see previous posts) almost always arrive from Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and east African countries like Kenya. That is, those countries they can get to which are nearest but in relative peace. Some refugees do settle there, and some go back home too. But the rest do aim to go further. They know they are using up their welcome at these first ports of call. Refugee camps the world over are not pretty places, and most of the residents are striving desperately to go somewhere to settle down and live again.

And so they try by whatever means they can to get to places like Australia. So our "boat people" are almost all Middle Eastern folk who set sail from Indonesia. Not Indonesians, and not sailing all the way from Iraq, etc. They are so desperate to move on that they pay lots to be people-smuggled across dangerous oceans on leaky tubs, risking their lives.

Our current government's solution is to tell these people that they chose the wrong mode of transport. They did not apply at the Australian Consulate in Aleppo and wait many months for their determination. Therefore they are to be incarcerated indefinitely in concentration camps on godforsaken tropical islands. Because their suffering and deaths there will surely deter all the other Syrian refugees fleeing to Indonesia in the first place.

See how nonsensical this "no intermediate country" argument gets? Because that's what you are arguing when you say that refugees should apply for asylum in the first country they get to.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:19 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
To expand on my last post, I come into contact with a large number of immigrants to Australia as part of my job. Hard not to, as there is a very large proportion of our population born overseas. Most have arrived here after going through the long process of seeking visas of various types and then trying to gain permanent residency. Some have spoken with bitterness of those who have come here via people smugglers. They see them as denying places in our limited, but still large by world standards, immigrant intake from those who have taken the longer and proper pathway.
To expand on mine, a Syrian who flees Syria because their house has been bombed, they have lost their job and they need food and shelter, but once the fighting stops they can safely return, is different from a Syrian who was a rebel leader whose side has lost and if caught would be executed.

The latter would be eligible for asylum in the UK. If the former wanted to stay in the UK, they would need to go through the immigration process.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:21 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is what asylum is, as opposed to immigrants who arrive for other reasons.

If someone arrives in the UK and claims they are in fear of their life, they are seeking refugee status to remain in the UK. Here is the UK government website;

https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum

"You must apply for asylum if you want to stay in the UK as a refugee.

To be eligible you must have left your country and be unable to go back because you fear persecution.

Apply for a visa if you want to come to the UK for another reason (for example to work, study or remain with family). If youíre already in the UK and want to remain with family living here, apply for a family of a settled person visa.

You should apply when you arrive in the UK or as soon as you think it would be unsafe for you to return to your own country. Your application is more likely to be denied if you wait."
I really canít believe that you are so hopelessly naive. Everyone who asks for asylum is in fear of their lives? Get serious.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:25 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I really canít believe that you are so hopelessly naive. Everyone who asks for asylum is in fear of their lives? Get serious.
I'm not that naive. And I did not say that at all.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:29 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I'm not that naive. And I did not say that at all.
My comment was directed at Nessie.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:39 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
My comment was directed at Nessie.
Ah, my mistake. Apologies.
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Old 9th January 2019, 04:37 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If you have ONE "known terrorist on the loose in Saudi Arabia, Syria or Spain, then at least intelligence services can keep track of him. However, if the UK were to adopt the policy having a completely open borders i.e., allowing anyone to come to your country totally unrestricted with no checks (which is what you advocate) this is going to allow any number of unknown terrorists into the country with no way to check on them.
so we aren't admitting known criminals and terrorists at all then? Just admitting people that might be terrorists because they are a bit brown? A completely different thing.

Please don't tell me what I advocate, if you want to know what I advocate feel free to ask.

Incidentally we check on immigrants who may be terrorists the exact same way as we check on anyone else who might be a terrorist. Using the police force and intelligence services.

Anyone 'unknown' who may be planning something would be perfectly free to enter as a tourist and do whatever they wanted anyway. Yet another red herring.
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Old 9th January 2019, 04:41 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
FTFY.

Do you seriously believe that all asylum seekers are trying to reach other countries because they are in fear of their lives?
No. Around half of asylum claims are rejected on the grounds that they don't meet the criteria. Of course some of these may be disputable but it would seem reasonable to assume that some non-zero percentage of asylum seekers do not meet the criteria to be accepted.

However this is something that is determined AFTER the claim has been made and not before.

100% of those admitted under asylum laws meet the criteria.
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Old 9th January 2019, 04:43 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
They see them as denying places in our limited, but still large by world standards, immigrant intake from those who have taken the longer and proper pathway.
Which if you have a quota system that works in this way is a problem with a system and not with the people. In most cases asylum claims are handled separately from normal immigration claims and so this would not be a factual complaint however the Australian system may be different (and so worse)
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Old 9th January 2019, 04:46 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Indeed they are, which is what I was pointing out, since it is virtually impossible for many people to arrive in the UK legally as an asylum seekers.
A technical illegality such as arriving by non-conventional means? It's amazing isn't it we have come full circle. It's alright for asylum seekers to break the law to get to the UK as long as it's not the law they are currently breaking to arrive in the UK (If indeed they are actually breaking any law, which as yet has not been established!)

Imagine the Daily Express headline if it was discovered that 20,000 people a year were arriving here on student visas and then claiming asylum when they landed!
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Old 9th January 2019, 04:57 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And I should also add that our nation has benefitted greatly from immigration and multi-culturalism, but we do have the right to control our immigration system. I have no problems with turning boats back and thwarting people smugglers.
Every country has the legal right to control their immigration system. This is a fairly meaningless statement.

The question is about the moral right to turn away someone who is in genuine fear for their life because either

#1 The way they got there isn't the way you want them to arrive
#2 You don't want to take any more people because they are a bit of an inconvenience to deal with

I'm genuinely interested what you would tell someone in genuine need who arrived at the airport and you are the decision maker. Let's say they are an Iraqi who for whatever reason has fallen foul of a local ISIS group. His children have been murdered, his wife kidnapped and raped, his brother is being held and tortured to find his whereabouts.

He turns up at your desk and says 'I am in fear of my life, I would like to live here in Australia as if I am sent back to Iraq I will be killed'

As far as I see it your potential responses are:

1. Sorry mate. It's not my problem, wish you best of luck but you need to go back

2. Sorry mate. I can't let you in. Maybe try New Zealand? But for now I need to deport you back to Iraq. I hope you don't get killed

3. Sorry mate. You really should have gone to Turkey and lived for years in a concentration camp with zero quality of life. I can't let you in.

4. In you come.

I would like to think that any individual in this situation is going to opt for #4. Feel free to tell me what the #5 is if there is an alternative. Either they tough it out in their homeland, life in ****** conditions in a camp, try another country or you let them in.

The first basically is a death sentence, the 2nd life/longterm imprisonment, the 3rd an abdication of responsibility which if everyone did the same would mean that it defaults back to option 1 or 2.
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Old 9th January 2019, 04:58 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Which if you have a quota system that works in this way is a problem with a system and not with the people. In most cases asylum claims are handled separately from normal immigration claims and so this would not be a factual complaint however the Australian system may be different (and so worse)
What utter rot. Come back to me with a lecture when the UK has an immigration intake comparable to Australia. Despite the illusions of Brexiteers, this is far from the case.
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:08 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What utter rot. Come back to me with a lecture when the UK has an immigration intake comparable to Australia. Despite the illusions of Brexiteers, this is far from the case.
Sorry what is rot?

Are you telling me that Australia

1. Has a quota system
2. Include asylum seekers in that quota for immigration and admits them at the expense of other immigrants?

If so that system is clearly worse than one that doesn't have these features.

No need to lecture me on the ****** UK immigration system - I agree. The UK should be taking in a lot more also. But that is irrelevant to the point you raised.

ETA: Part of the reason for Brexiteers in the first place is that myths were being spread about asylum seekers, immigrants and foreigners. Therefore it is important that discussions are held on a factual basis. Is it true that asylum seekers are displacing other immigrants in Australia? If so, does this have to be the case? Or is it a political decision made by those in charge of the system rather than the fault of the asylum seeker?
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:25 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Sorry what is rot?

Are you telling me that Australia

1. Has a quota system
2. Include asylum seekers in that quota for immigration and admits them at the expense of other immigrants?

If so that system is clearly worse than one that doesn't have these features.

No need to lecture me on the ****** UK immigration system - I agree. The UK should be taking in a lot more also. But that is irrelevant to the point you raised.

ETA: Part of the reason for Brexiteers in the first place is that myths were being spread about asylum seekers, immigrants and foreigners. Therefore it is important that discussions are held on a factual basis. Is it true that asylum seekers are displacing other immigrants in Australia? If so, does this have to be the case? Or is it a political decision made by those in charge of the system rather than the fault of the asylum seeker?
Come back when you have some facts. Australia takes in more refugees per capita than the UK and pretty much every other country. It might not be enough for some people, but Australia has an exemplary immigration system. We simply don’t take in people who are smuggled in without a rigourous process.

You have decided that we have a faulty system. Not true.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:58 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
1) It's easier to integrate into a society when the cultures are similar. 2) Except for maybe Iraq, any country bordering on Syria is a safe haven. They don't need to go any further. 3) The UK is already overcrowded. 4) It's easier for refugees to return home when it it safe if they don't stray to far from their homeland. 5) The UK doesn't benefit in anyway from these people.
Bollocks.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:19 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I really canít believe that you are so hopelessly naive. Everyone who asks for asylum is in fear of their lives? Get serious.
I am not saying that just because someone claims asylum, they are entitled to it. I am differentiating between those who face persecution who are asylum seekers and those who temporarily face danger due to war, who are refugees from the fighting, but can return once the war has ended.

There are some who claim asylum and are not entitled to it. That is why the government has an application and checking system, which is here;

https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:22 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A technical illegality such as arriving by non-conventional means? It's amazing isn't it we have come full circle. It's alright for asylum seekers to break the law to get to the UK as long as it's not the law they are currently breaking to arrive in the UK (If indeed they are actually breaking any law, which as yet has not been established!)

Imagine the Daily Express headline if it was discovered that 20,000 people a year were arriving here on student visas and then claiming asylum when they landed!
Exactly. The very nature of asylum is escaping persecution, which means fleeing without being caught. That has to be done by whatever means is possible, pretty much all of which involve illegal methods.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:24 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Come back when you have some facts. Australia takes in more refugees per capita than the UK and pretty much every other country. It might not be enough for some people, but Australia has an exemplary immigration system. We simply donít take in people who are smuggled in without a rigourous process.

You have decided that we have a faulty system. Not true.
If someone enters Australia illegally, but they have a genuine asylum claim and will be killed if sent back to their home country, what happens then?
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:39 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Come back when you have some facts. Australia takes in more refugees per capita than the UK and pretty much every other country.
You sure? The figures below suggest 1.51 for Aus and 1.82 for UK, per 1,000 population, for the year 2015. I quickly counted 19 European countries alone with higher numbers than Australia

List_of_countries_by_refugee_populationWP
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:41 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Come back when you have some facts. Australia takes in more refugees per capita than the UK and pretty much every other country. It might not be enough for some people, but Australia has an exemplary immigration system. We simply don’t take in people who are smuggled in without a rigourous process.

You have decided that we have a faulty system. Not true.
You are completely ignoring the point you raised initially in favour of another one. It is you who said you had a faulty system and I asked you to clarify if that is the case.

Now you are moving the goalposts again. Dropping turds into arguments then denying they are yours to clean up is not particularly helpful.

Is it the case that asylum seekers are admitted to Australia at the expense of other immigrants? This is a matter of fact and not opinion. I am asking you to educate me on that fact.

Once we have established that we can move on to other questions.

I also note that you have not addressed the hypothetical I put to you on exactly what you WOULD like done with asylum seekers.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:49 AM   #264
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You sure? The figures below suggest 1.51 for Aus and 1.82 for UK, per 1,000 population, for the year 2015. I quickly counted 19 European countries alone with higher numbers than Australia

List_of_countries_by_refugee_populationWP
Well they are far from the worst. But this discussion is not about which country is doing better than another. It's about how best to address the issue of asylum seekers. And pretty much every developed nation needs to be doing better.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:53 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well they are far from the worst...
I agree, but it was the "Come back when you have some facts" gibe that rankled.
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:04 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Bollocks.
It's fact check o'clock

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...n-density.html

The UK is the 10th most densely populated country in Europe, but from those 9 leads let's be sensible and discount

Monaco (for obvious reasons)
Gibraltar (because that is, you know, the UK!)
Vatican City (LOL!)
Guernsey (the same reason as Gibraltar)
San Marino (about the size of a village so who cares?)
Malta (its tiny population makes it irrelevant in terms of immigration)

We are left with

Netherlands
Belgium

So what is it about the third most densely populated country of any size in Europe that makes you think it's not overcrowded?
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:37 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's fact check o'clock

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...n-density.html

The UK is the 10th most densely populated country in Europe, but from those 9 leads let's be sensible and discount

Monaco (for obvious reasons)
Gibraltar (because that is, you know, the UK!)
Vatican City (LOL!)
Guernsey (the same reason as Gibraltar)
San Marino (about the size of a village so who cares?)
Malta (its tiny population makes it irrelevant in terms of immigration)

We are left with

Netherlands
Belgium

So what is it about the third most densely populated country of any size in Europe that makes you think it's not overcrowded?
Because it isn't in and of itself. We're certainly not so "overcrowded" that the usual suspects can use it as a convenient excuse for their racism because they're ****-scared of a few tens of thousands of asylum seekers.

Oh, and really you want to watch bringing up countries like Malta, which clearly still functions despite taking eight times the number of refugees that the UK does per capita.

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Old 9th January 2019, 10:54 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Because it isn't in and of itself. We're certainly not so "overcrowded" that the usual suspects can use it as a convenient excuse for their racism because they're ****-scared of a few tens of thousands of asylum seekers.
It's irrelevant what effect more people will have. It's either over-crowded or it's not. If you cram a million people into a football stadium it's mad to say it's not overcrowded on the basis that another dozen wouldn't make any difference.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Oh, and really you want to watch bringing up countries like Malta, which clearly still functions despite taking eight times the number of refugees that the UK does per capita.
Again, per capita is completely irrelevant. What matters are the resources of the host country. Here were have critical problems with the NHS, schools, the rail network, the road network, housing, policing and care for the elderly. All of this is because there are too many people putting a demand on insufficient resource.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:08 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
An asylum seeker is someone who has to leave for fear of their life and cannot safely live in their home country.
Then they should be seeking asylum in the FIRST "safe" country they come to.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The UK should take a share of asylum seekers and not leave responsibility to other countries.
Agreed. People who are citizens of Spain, Portugal, Ireland, France & Belgium, for example, fleeing those countries for fear persecution by the governments of those countries, should be allowed to claim asylum in the UK, and the UK has a responsibility to accept them

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I agree refugees from war, who have left because of the war, are better to stay in nearby countries and then return to help rebuild.
I also agree

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The UK does benefit from refugees and asylum seekers as they generate more income than they use.
I can only debate/agree with this from the perspective of what I see here in this country, and from those refugees and asylum seekers I have met (and I have met quite a few both personally through friends and family, as well as through interactions with customers of my business).

Asylum seekers and refugees here contribute to the economy well beyond their numbers. Overall, they have a strong work ethic and are deeply grateful for having been accepted into the community in their time of desperate need. They also commit less crimes per capita than natural born citizens.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:14 AM   #270
baron
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They also commit less crimes per capita than natural born citizens.
That's not true.

They actually commit fewer crimes.


(Can't let that one pass).
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:54 AM   #271
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's not true.

They actually commit fewer crimes.


(Can't let that one pass).

Grammar Nazi!
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:07 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's either over-crowded or it's not.
It's not.

Quote:
Here were have critical problems with the NHS, schools, the rail network, the road network, housing, policing and care for the elderly. All of this is because there are too many people putting a demand on insufficient resource.
No, that's because of under-funding in general, and austerity in particular.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 9th January 2019 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:54 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You sure? The figures below suggest 1.51 for Aus and 1.82 for UK, per 1,000 population, for the year 2015. I quickly counted 19 European countries alone with higher numbers than Australia

List_of_countries_by_refugee_populationWP
Yes Iím sure. From the Refugee Council of Australia:

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/ge.../resettlement/


Quote:
This map shows the total number of refugees resettled by country of arrival (where refugees have been resettled to). The United States has been by far the largest resettlement destination (828,128), followed by Canada (191,801), Australia (158,217), Sweden (24,649) and Norway (17,327). These five countries have been responsible for over 95% of all refugees resettled in that period. The United States alone has been responsible for nearly 65% of resettled refugees in this time.
When you adjust the statistics for each countryís population, however, Australia has taken in the most refugees. Australia has taken 656 refugees per 100,000 people, more than twice as many as the United States (256). As well, some highly developed countries have very low proportions of resettlement: for example, Italy (0.85), Spain (0.79), South Korea (0.12) and Japan (0.1).
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:03 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's not.



No, that's because of under-funding in general, and austerity in particular.
A somewhat native view, and that's being polite. We are told we need 3.1 million houses right now just to break even on social housing, we import the vast majority of our food because we don't have the resource to generate it here, our infrastructures are failing plus all the things I've already mentioned. If you don't see all this as over-crowding it's difficult to imagine what metric you would accept.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Then they should be seeking asylum in the FIRST "safe" country they come to.



Agreed. People who are citizens of Spain, Portugal, Ireland, France & Belgium, for example, fleeing those countries for fear persecution by the governments of those countries, should be allowed to claim asylum in the UK, and the UK has a responsibility to accept them
Which means the UK is in effect closed to asylum seekers.

Quote:
I also agree



I can only debate/agree with this from the perspective of what I see here in this country, and from those refugees and asylum seekers I have met (and I have met quite a few both personally through friends and family, as well as through interactions with customers of my business).

Asylum seekers and refugees here contribute to the economy well beyond their numbers. Overall, they have a strong work ethic and are deeply grateful for having been accepted into the community in their time of desperate need. They also commit less crimes per capita than natural born citizens.
A benefit you seek to deprive the UK of.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:46 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which means the UK is in effect closed to asylum seekers.
Six pages in and you haven't explained how 300,000 people have managed to claim asylum if the country is 'effectively closed'. I don't know how you're using that term. On looking through the window of a closed shop I expect to see no customers. If I see a thousand customers all happily shopping away, regardless of whether it says 'Closed' on the door, regardless of the number of people jumping about outside shouting, "It's literally impossible to get into that shop!", I'm going to question whether it's really closed at all.
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:04 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Again, per capita is completely irrelevant. What matters are the resources of the host country. Here were have critical problems with the NHS, schools, the rail network, the road network, housing, policing and care for the elderly. All of this is because there are too many people putting a demand on insufficient resource.
If you are truly concerned about resource distribution, maybe look towards the top of the social scale more than the bottom.

It isn't that you're wrong, it's that you seem to be straining at a gnat in a swarm of hornets.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:00 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Six pages in and you haven't explained how 300,000 people have managed to claim asylum if the country is 'effectively closed'. I don't know how you're using that term. On looking through the window of a closed shop I expect to see no customers. If I see a thousand customers all happily shopping away, regardless of whether it says 'Closed' on the door, regardless of the number of people jumping about outside shouting, "It's literally impossible to get into that shop!", I'm going to question whether it's really closed at all.
I am responding to posters comments that they think asylum should only be claimed in a country near or next to the country they are fleeing from.

Thankfully the UK government recognises that is stupid and it helps asylum seekers and other refugees fleeing war zones to get to the UK.

Six pages in and you still have not figured that out.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:03 AM   #279
Nessie
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Again, per capita is completely irrelevant. What matters are the resources of the host country. Here were have critical problems with the NHS, schools, the rail network, the road network, housing, policing and care for the elderly. All of this is because there are too many people putting a demand on insufficient resource.
Those problems are due to massive underfunding, as the wealthy here do not want to pay tax and keep rates low, plus the bankers crashing the system and being bailed out.

Other countries recognise, if you want a decent infrastructure, it has to be paid for.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:34 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
It's only a migrant crisis in the sense that it might sway certain 'brexit' votes that might be coming up in the near future.
You'd think they'd welcome people who are literally willing to risk death rather than stay in France*

If nothing else, given they have a proven record of crossing the Channel they'd be better qualified to run our emergency ferry cover than Seaborne...


*Obviously, this wouldn't apply to prominent leavers like Viscount Rothmere or Nigel Lawson.
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