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Old 10th January 2019, 03:46 AM   #281
Archie Gemmill Goal
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If the UK is full (1) and doesn't have resources (2) to pay for the NHS and other services then I think the only way forward is a program of compulsory sterilisation of UKIP and Tory voters.

(1) It isn't.
(2) It does

This is the country that two weeks ago had an old woman on TV sitting in front of a GOLD piano!!!
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:40 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This is the country that two weeks ago had an old woman on TV sitting in front of a GOLD piano!!!
Faced with such indisputable evidence I'm forced to retract my statement that this country is overcrowded.

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Old 10th January 2019, 04:49 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Faced with such indisputable evidence I'm forced to retract my statement that this country is overcrowded.

The world is overcrowded but don't worry about little England, Brexit is causing a mass exodus!
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:05 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
The world is overcrowded but don't worry about little England, Brexit is causing a mass exodus!
There's no evidence of that. The population is continuing to increase year on year with net gains of over 250,000 annually (and that figure doesn't take into account illegal, under-the radar immigrants).
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:10 AM   #285
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It was reported in August 2017, that more than 100,000 Brits had already emigrated since the EU referendum.

Under our current loony economic paradigm of infinite growth a growing population is required to keep us afloat.

Migrants contribute more to the economy than 'native' Britishers.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:19 AM   #286
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Don't see a single UK city on this list... I wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lation_density
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:32 AM   #287
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Not too many on this list either. Only 1 in the top 20.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lation_density
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:43 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
A somewhat native view, and that's being polite. We are told we need 3.1 million houses right now just to break even on social housing, we import the vast majority of our food because we don't have the resource to generate it here, our infrastructures are failing plus all the things I've already mentioned. If you don't see all this as over-crowding it's difficult to imagine what metric you would accept.
We are short on social housing because Thatcher forcing the flogging off of council housing came with the handcuffs of councils not being able to use the money received to build more, and the failure of successive governments to overturn that and/or build more.

We do not import "the vast majority of our food." The UK produces 50% of the food it consumes, and by value exports the equivalent of just under half of what we actually import.

Underfunding and especially austerity cover everything else.

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Old 10th January 2019, 08:15 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Don't see a single UK city on this list... I wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lation_density
My God, you're right, until every inch of our country looks like this how can we possibly be overcrowded?



Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
It was reported in August 2017, that more than 100,000 Brits had already emigrated since the EU referendum.
So what? Brits are a small minority of emigrants. Net migration is 250K annually.

Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Under our current loony economic paradigm of infinite growth a growing population is required to keep us afloat.

Migrants contribute more to the economy than 'native' Britishers.
That's right, because as we all know, immigrants never get old.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
We are short on social housing because Thatcher forcing the flogging off of council housing came with the handcuffs of councils not being able to use the money received to build more, and the failure of successive governments to overturn that and/or build more.

We do not import "the vast majority of our food." The UK produces 50% of the food it consumes, and by value exports the equivalent of just under half of what we actually import.

Underfunding and especially austerity cover everything else.
You have an exceedingly simplistic view of the world.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:30 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You have an exceedingly simplistic view of the world.
You're the one who framed overcrowding in terms of resources and infrastructure. Now that all manner of points are made showing the major drags on the social institutions responsible for the reasons you've chosen are not refugees, we are just simpletons.

The people who make the policies that are responsible are the same people convincing you it's all because there's too many furriners.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:36 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You're the one who framed overcrowding in terms of resources and infrastructure. Now that all manner of points are made showing the major drags on the social institutions responsible for the reasons you've chosen are not refugees, we are just simpletons.
Where did I even suggest that refugees account for the resource problems in the UK? Just one quote will do.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The people who make the policies that are responsible are the same people convincing you it's all because there's too many furriners.
Nobody convinces me of anything. You're applying your own education methodology, incorrectly, to me.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:53 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You have an exceedingly simplistic view of the world.
Heavy irony...
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:49 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which means the UK is in effect closed to asylum seekers.
No it doesn't.

It means that at this time, the UK is not near enough or adjacent enough to trouble spots to be the place where asylum seekers and refugees are first processed. . However, things change; it hasn't always been that way, and it won't always remain that way. Ever heard of World War 1, the Spanish Civil War, World War 2. Do a bit of research and find out about refugees from those times... I'll even get you started.

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-onlin...ticle/refugees


Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A benefit you seek to deprive the UK of.
Not at all. It seems you are deliberately missing the point.

There is nothing wrong with the UK taking refugees and asylum seekers who have ben duly processed in the FIRST safe place they reach, but these people should not be permitted to simply go through a dozen other safe countries to get to the UK. What they are doing is queue-jumping all the people who have legally and legitimately applied to migrate to the UK.

What they should be doing is being processed as refugees or asylum seekers in the FIRST safe country they come to. Now that they are safe from whatever religious, political or cultural persecution they were fleeing from, then they can then apply to go to the UK, and join the waiting list for immigration just like everyone else.

Why are you finding this so difficult to understand?
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:00 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Where did I even suggest that refugees account for the resource problems in the UK? Just one quote will do.


I didn't say you suggested refugees account for the resource problems.

I said you're the one who framed your objection to them in terms of resource distribution.

Words mean things.


Quote:
Nobody convinces me of anything. You're applying your own education methodology, incorrectly, to me.
You were born or at some point became omniscient, then?
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:11 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I didn't say you suggested refugees account for the resource problems.

I said you're the one who framed your objection to them in terms of resource distribution.
Er, no, you absolutely did not.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You're the one who framed overcrowding in terms of resources and infrastructure. Now that all manner of points are made showing the major drags on the social institutions responsible for the reasons you've chosen are not refugees, we are just simpletons.

The people who make the policies that are responsible are the same people convincing you it's all because there's too many furriners.
It's ALL because of foreigners. That's what you said.

You couldn't have made it clearer.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Words mean things.
Quite right.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You were born or at some point became omniscient, then?
Or another option, I look at the evidence and make my own decision. So if I hear someone say that the UK is not overcrowded, or that resource problems are the fault of the rich, I don't just take their word for it because it suits my political agenda.

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Old 10th January 2019, 11:14 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No it doesn't.



It means that at this time, the UK is not near enough or adjacent enough to trouble spots to be the place where asylum seekers and refugees are first processed. . However, things change; it hasn't always been that way, and it won't always remain that way. Ever heard of World War 1, the Spanish Civil War, World War 2. Do a bit of research and find out about refugees from those times... I'll even get you started.



https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-onlin...ticle/refugees









Not at all. It seems you are deliberately missing the point.



There is nothing wrong with the UK taking refugees and asylum seekers who have ben duly processed in the FIRST safe place they reach, but these people should not be permitted to simply go through a dozen other safe countries to get to the UK. What they are doing is queue-jumping all the people who have legally and legitimately applied to migrate to the UK.



What they should be doing is being processed as refugees or asylum seekers in the FIRST safe country they come to. Now that they are safe from whatever religious, political or cultural persecution they were fleeing from, then they can then apply to go to the UK, and join the waiting list for immigration just like everyone else.



Why are you finding this so difficult to understand?
I think there's a big difference in perspective as to what constitutes a "safe" country.

In the issue of ME immigration to Europe, can you imagine that Turkey and the Balkans might strike migrants as appealing options?
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Er, no, you absolutely did not.



It's ALL because of foreigners. That's what you said.

You couldn't have made it clearer.
Quote-mining bores me, engage the topic in good faith, please.

Quote:
Quite right.
Neener-neener.

Quote:
Or another option, I look at the evidence and make my own decision. So if I hear someone say that the UK is not overcrowded, or that resource problems are the fault of the rich, I don't just take their word for it because it suits my political agenda.
Thank you for being clearer rather than the absurdly overbroad claim you started with.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:35 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Quote-mining bores me, engage the topic in good faith, please.
You assert that I think resource issues are 'all because' of foreigners, I ask you to quote me, you deny saying it and when I prove you did, you accuse me of quote mining. Then, as if the hypocrisy in that statement hasn't just wobbled the planet on its axis, you accuse me of not arguing in good faith!

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Thank you for being clearer rather than the absurdly overbroad claim you started with.
That nobody convinces me of anything? No, that stands. I might be pointed in the direction of facts that cause me to change my mind, but nothing more than that.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:49 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I think there's a big difference in perspective as to what constitutes a "safe" country.

In the issue of ME immigration to Europe, can you imagine that Turkey and the Balkans might strike migrants as appealing options?
No, but Greece, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, the Czech Republic, Italy, Switzerland, France, Germany, Belgium, or The Netherlands probably would. These are among the countries that refugees need to pass through to get to the UK.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:16 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, but Greece, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, the Czech Republic, Italy, Switzerland, France, Germany, Belgium, or The Netherlands probably would. These are among the countries that refugees need to pass through to get to the UK.
Are we at least agreed that we can dispense with this "first country they get to" nonsense based on the idea that people not seeking refuge from horror can tell those who are "what is best for them (as a sad, cowardly way of expressing what one feels is best for themselves)" now?
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:41 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are we at least agreed that we can dispense with this "first country they get to" nonsense based on the idea that people not seeking refuge from horror can tell those who are "what is best for them (as a sad, cowardly way of expressing what one feels is best for themselves)" now?
No, because it isn't nonsense.

If you are running away from a bear, do you bypass all the houses you come across because to want to go to a specific house? Of course you don't. You go the first place where you know you will be safe.

Being persecuted to the point where your life is danger is an EMERGENCY for you, and in an emegency, you DO NOT keep running, bypassing all the safe places. You stop at the first place of safety.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:48 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, because it isn't nonsense.



If you are running away from a bear, do you bypass all the houses you come across because to want to go to a specific house? Of course you don't. You go the first place where you know you will be safe.



Being persecuted to the point where your life is danger is an EMERGENCY for you, and in an emegency, you DO NOT keep running, bypassing all the safe places. You stop at the first place of safety.
Now make your analogy fit reality. These houses aren't the same. Some have people you know to be hostile to you, some are houses relatives fled to running from the bear years before, etc. Some houses are cooperating with the bear and will trap you in their yard in order to appease the bear...

The world is complicated.

Weaving analogies that erase all this complexity is just wishful thinking.

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Old 10th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What they are doing is queue-jumping all the people who have legally and legitimately applied to migrate to the UK.
Not true. There is no queue for asylum and traditional immigration processes are separate.

Plus if someone is genuinely in need of asylum they SHOULD queue jump people who aren't.
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:15 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, but Greece, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, the Czech Republic, Italy, Switzerland, France, Germany, Belgium, or The Netherlands probably would. These are among the countries that refugees need to pass through to get to the UK.
And if they followed your advice would not accept any asylum seeker turning up at their door because they would have passed through another country to get to them. Which isn't really helpful for asylum seekers.
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:20 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, because it isn't nonsense.

If you are running away from a bear, do you bypass all the houses you come across because to want to go to a specific house? Of course you don't. You go the first place where you know you will be safe.

Being persecuted to the point where your life is danger is an EMERGENCY for you, and in an emegency, you DO NOT keep running, bypassing all the safe places. You stop at the first place of safety.
Actually if you follow through you analogy you may stop at the first house but if you find it to be derelict, house to a family of murderers, not having running water or otherwise not suitable for habitation you don't just stay there indefinitely.

If the first house is full of 100 people who already ran from the bear then its not really reasonable to expect them to house another 100 just because the next house would rather not deal with the inconvenience.

Especially when the bear was put in the woods by the guys in the 2nd house in the first ******* place!
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:27 PM   #306
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Again, I would like to emphasise that countries accepting refugees do NOT have queues where people take their turn to be processed and that can be "jumped" by some means. A lot of heated argument goes into justifying allowing or withholding asylum based on this mythical queue system. I can see all sorts of back and forth argument for justification of stances in this thread alone based on this presumption. It is also prevalent in the minds of refugees who get admitted "after" others whom they deem unworthy of getting there first.

Let's be clear: There is no such queuing process. There is no "line at the door" of refugees to a country. If is not FIFO. They do not "take a ticket" and wait their turn.

Instead, refugees are processed as a crowd. All of them at the same time. Their processing starts nominally the moment they claim refugee status to the country the are applying to. They are effectively herded into a big (virtual) room with all the other refugees currently being processed. Not a queue. From there, their processing time will vary, but it is not based on "queue waiting time".

But this, and only this, is where the processing problems become debatable. Some of the relevant factors controlling the "speed" of a refugee asylum claim are:

1) How many people the country will allow in their "refugee crowd" this year (quotas).
2) How much resources they have to process this crowd (govt. funding).
3) The claim checking process and time (diligence & security).
4) Government attitude towards refugees generally (policy).
5) The worthiness of each asylum-seeker's claim (veracity).

And so on.

All these are debatable and vary from one country to another. But to repeat, there are no queues and no queue-jumpers.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:49 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, but Greece, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, the Czech Republic, Italy, Switzerland, France, Germany, Belgium, or The Netherlands probably would. These are among the countries that refugees need to pass through to get to the UK.
There are two factors that make the UK a favourite destination.

Under the schengen agreement, if caught in one country say France, as an illegal having arrived into France via Italy (which is very easy since the border is open), they are sent back to Italy, often put in camps and then processed. If their application fails, they are deported to their country of origin.

If they make it to the UK, the UK cannot ship them back to France, the UK is not a member of the schengen agreement, and therefore have to repatriate them directly - by which time the very fair UK system is available to said illegal "asylum seeker".

And, as an extra attraction, the UK has no ID card system. Once in, it is much easier to hide.

I recently met a Morrocan who had been caught in Cartagena, Spain having arrived on one of those dinghies landing on a nearby beach.

He has to produce a document stating he is awaiting approval for his asylum application and the police regularly control him and he has to visit them too on a weekly basis.

The Moroccan I met was planning to go to Barcelona to catch a "special" coach that would take him first to Belgium, where he could hide, before making his attempt at getting into the UK.

I believe that the poorer EU countries have turned a blind eye so that the illegals can travel freely to the wealthier northern countries of the EU.

An example is how recently the police in France could round up and arrest thousands of Yellow shirted protesters but over years let thousands in Calais live in makeshift accommodation (hoping to get to the UK) without arresting and processing the migrants living there.

Only when the local citizens make enough of a stink, do the authorities move in.

Things are changing though probably because of the rise of right wing parties throughout Europe and those in authority reacting in order to stem the flow, not just of migrants but of said parties.

I was at Alicante station a couple of weeks back and the police were doing "random" checks on passengers getting off the local trains. I say random in inverted commas because all those they stopped were young looking Arabic or Black.

A couple of weeks back the Vox party (a right wing nationalist party) gained seats in Andalucia. Interestingly, they gained their votes not from the PP (Partido Popular - Spanish conservatives) but from the left wing parties.

The whole of Europe has an immigration crisis and it is very complex.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:58 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
The whole of Europe has an immigration crisis and it is very complex.
It really doesn't. It has a reactionary idiot crisis which is a different thing.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:02 PM   #309
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Idiots are the voters then. They do not think, is that what you are saying?
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:09 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Idiots are the voters then. They do not think, is that what you are saying?
A 'migrant crisis' would be a problem caused by the migrants.

People trying desperately to keep them out is not a migrant crisis. People hating immigrants isn't a migrant crisis.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:21 PM   #311
Belgian thought
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A 'migrant crisis' would be a problem caused by the migrants. Correct

People trying desperately to keep them out is not a migrant crisis. Correct - it is a control - why the 'desperately' I do not understand. There exists an acceptable control system

People hating immigrants isn't a migrant crisis.Correct - just *********
So we almost agree then.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:23 PM   #312
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
So we almost agree then.
I just wonder what the 'control' is about? What exactly is it they are trying to control?
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:30 PM   #313
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Application for Asylum according to the laws - that is the control system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum...European_Union


ETA - according to Frontex, there were 3,148,519 illegal border crossings (land and sea) into Europe between 2009 and 2016.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:40 PM   #314
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Application for Asylum according to the laws - that is the control system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum...European_Union
so whats the crisis?

people need help, help them.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:03 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Application for Asylum according to the laws - that is the control system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum...European_Union


ETA - according to Frontex, there were 3,148,519 illegal border crossings (land and sea) into Europe between 2009 and 2016.
That is, over 17 years. A quick bit of arithmetic averages that at 185,207 per year, or 507 per day.

You do realise that about 500 people troop off every single Airbus 380 that lands in Europe, and there are thousands of such flights each day across the EU for millions of transits PER DAY? And no doubt there are plenty of problem entrants all the time. And somehow the various border control operations still manage to cope reasonably well.

So the numbers you talk about are actually tiny, a minuscule fraction, by comparison. So what's the problem again in processing these people through border control? Sounds like it is bias, not method...
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:17 PM   #316
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I think you mean 7 years - 449,788 a year.

2009 104,847
2010 106,908
2011 146,349
2012 77,932
2013 106,800
2014 283,175
2015 1,822,260
2016 500,248

And these people did not come through border control...

In the same period 5,109,835 asylum seekers did go through proper procedures
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:35 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Actually if you follow through you analogy you may stop at the first house but if you find it to be derelict, house to a family of murderers, not having running water or otherwise not suitable for habitation you don't just stay there indefinitely.

If the first house is full of 100 people who already ran from the bear then its not really reasonable to expect them to house another 100 just because the next house would rather not deal with the inconvenience.

Especially when the bear was put in the woods by the guys in the 2nd house in the first ******* place!
This is a load of three week old horse-puckey, and you know it - so I'm calling you out on it.

The inference of your argument is that the UK is the ONLY PLACE IN THE WHOLE OF EUROPE where asylum seekers will be safe so they should all run through all the other dozen countries in Europe to get there

That is, as Bernard Woolley would call it, a consignment of geriatric shoe repairers.
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:25 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Faced with such indisputable evidence I'm forced to retract my statement that this country is overcrowded.

You have misattributed that quote.
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:35 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No it doesn't.

It means that at this time, the UK is not near enough or adjacent enough to trouble spots to be the place where asylum seekers and refugees are first processed. . However, things change; it hasn't always been that way, and it won't always remain that way. Ever heard of World War 1, the Spanish Civil War, World War 2. Do a bit of research and find out about refugees from those times... I'll even get you started.

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-onlin...ticle/refugees
Don't be cheeky. You know fine well what I meant.

Quote:
Not at all. It seems you are deliberately missing the point.

There is nothing wrong with the UK taking refugees and asylum seekers who have ben duly processed in the FIRST safe place they reach, but these people should not be permitted to simply go through a dozen other safe countries to get to the UK. What they are doing is queue-jumping all the people who have legally and legitimately applied to migrate to the UK.

What they should be doing is being processed as refugees or asylum seekers in the FIRST safe country they come to. Now that they are safe from whatever religious, political or cultural persecution they were fleeing from, then they can then apply to go to the UK, and join the waiting list for immigration just like everyone else.

Why are you finding this so difficult to understand?
I understand what you think should happen, I disagree with it. I think asylum seekers and refugees who get here by their own means should also be allowed to apply to remain here and even become citizens.

Thankfully the government is of the same opinion and anyone can apply, no matter how they arrive.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:14 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You have misattributed that quote.
Apologies, I did. Too late to edit now but I can ask the mods if you like. Take comfort in the fact there's only one person in the thread that could have posted such bilge, and everyone knows who it is.
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