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Old 9th January 2019, 12:51 AM   #361
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
They completely left the emotional appeal to Trump. Pelosi is a great deal maker and Speaker, but she absolutely can't be a party leader.
They both made a good job of highlighting that Trump is isolated, politically. This won't convince the Trumpsters that he is in the wrong, but then nothing ever could.
Most importantly, they were brief and sounded pragmatic - they made a good case of being the adults in the room.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:02 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The wall needs to be about 30 miles or so north of Los Angeles. That would be much better, though for different reasons.

It was a poorly delivered speech even for Trump but he painted a pretty accurate picture of the overall situation. Ya I get it that some disagree. I've said my piece on here enough already recently.

Trump should know by now that there is no point in him giving in on anything. Ever. No matter what Trump does, now matter how much he compromises, the Democrats will never hate him any less than they currently do, and the press will continue to crucify him on a daily basis.

If properly played (gigantic IF), this shutdown could be worked to hurt the Dems more than the Repubs. The again things are so polarized - pfft.
I don't even know what planet you live on.
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:07 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The wall needs to be about 30 miles or so north of Los Angeles. That would be much better, though for different reasons.

It was a poorly delivered speech even for Trump but he painted a pretty accurate picture of the overall situation. Ya I get it that some disagree. I've said my piece on here enough already recently.

Trump should know by now that there is no point in him giving in on anything. Ever. No matter what Trump does, now matter how much he compromises, the Democrats will never hate him any less than they currently do, and the press will continue to crucify him on a daily basis.

If properly played (gigantic IF), this shutdown could be worked to hurt the Dems more than the Repubs. The again things are so polarized - pfft.
The whole point of compromise is you don't need to be liked to get what you want. If he values the wall, he can offer something valuable in return and nothing about being hated would matter.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:38 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The whole point of compromise is you don't need to be liked to get what you want. If he values the wall, he can offer something valuable in return and nothing about being hated would matter.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:05 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good. Since this appears to be the only way to get smaller federal government, even temporarily, I'll take it. Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have a slightly better idea of what we actually need the government to do.
I propose that the US either drop states altogether and function as a single entity, or drop the federal system and just let the states govern themselves in a more open union. Tell you what, the northern, eastern and western states can try the full federal option and the central and southern states can try a confederacy. Come back with your results.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:43 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem of course is throwing 5 billion dollars down a toilet defensible? And let's be
truthful, we are dealing both with an idiot and a terrorist. If you pay him now, he'll only try this again.
I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:46 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.
This is the least painful kind of shutdown, more limited than the ones before. If you want to make a stand against Trump, this might be the best chance you've got.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:57 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Five billion is not a lot of money people, it's like 10 miles of high speed rail here in Cali What a laugh. It's pocket change.

I don't care who pays for it and whether it is a wall or something else, but something needs to be done.
If you really believe so, then you should be sufficiently informed to know that the 'problem' with illigal immigration is that people who enter the country legally overstay their visas. They don't sneak in from behind bushes.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The drafters of the US constitution sure were a bunch of incompetents for not making sure that the previous budget of public institutions would automatically continue to be applied on an interim basis in order to prevent situations just such as this from occurring. Disgraceful.
Sometimes it seems to me like they weren't quite as adept at crafting government as some people make them out to be.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.
Indeed, though one should note that if everyone is prosperous, you might see the value of your income go down substantially. If that's an acceptable deal, then fine.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:57 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?



You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.
"I'm being intransigent, so it's your fault" has never held water with me.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:59 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.
Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way.

There simply isn't a good choice.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:01 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sometimes it seems to me like they weren't quite as adept at crafting government as some people make them out to be.
I think the fact that they were so certain to put specific methods (outside of the traiditonal lovely methods of coups and revolutions) into the highest law of the land for how to, within the system, change every part of the highest law of the land often gets missed.

Outside of putting a giant flashing neon sign over the Constitution that said "SUBJECT TO FUTURE REVISION" I don't know how the Founding Fathers could have made "Hey guys feel free to change anything we've put down that doesn't work in the future" any clearer.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:04 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed, though one should note that if everyone is prosperous, you might see the value of your income go down substantially. If that's an acceptable deal, then fine.
'Might go down' is questionable and 'might go up' is also possible. I don't think it's a zero sum game.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way.
Of course he proved it is a winning negotiating strategy. Makes using it when ever you want to win great.

And of course McConnell isn't even letting them vote on the bill Trump vetoed so that they could fund the government by overriding Trump.

So there are plenty of workable ways that the government could be reopened with out the wall, that Trump couldn't even get his own party to support. Why blame the democrats for what is clearly the republicans doing?

If McConnell just let the previous funding bill come to a vote in this congress it would be easy.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:24 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When Mitch is subjected to extreme stress he starts leaking embalming fluid through his seams.
I really had to work hard not to laugh out loud at my workdesk, now.

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
McConnell has been shifting responsibility to Trump for the shutdown, probably because he knows it is a losing hand. He's another completely insincere actor.
McConnell is possibly most responsible for the current state of affairs in US politics out of anyone in the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Probably not. The "liberal" media bends over backwards to give Republican leaders air-time.
They do make for great entertainment.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:29 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"I'm being intransigent, so it's your fault" has never held water with me.
Nor with me, but when you're dealing with the intransigent, what are your options? Which one do you take? You can complain about them all you want but at the end of the day you have to choose and stay the course.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
'Might go down' is questionable and 'might go up' is also possible. I don't think it's a zero sum game.
The point isn't the zero sum game. It's that if the country's prosperous, wages will go up. A lot. And your 5$ shirt won't cost 5$ dollars anymore. Sure, jobs might come back into the country, but you'll have to accept that, because everything made everywhere costs more, you'll effectively be poorer.

Would that be a better world? Probably. But the point is to understand the consequences of actions and accept them.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:14 PM   #376
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I think it's up to Congress and the Senate to just build a wall around Donald Trump.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:18 PM   #377
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Government shutdown stops FDA food safety inspections

NBC: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...ctions-n956716

Quote:
The ongoing federal government shutdown has stopped most food safety inspections, but the Food and Drug Administration is planning to resume at least some of them. To do it, the agency will have to force furloughed workers to come back without pay.

FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb said he is trying to pinpoint the most essential inspections, while making sure that employees do not suffer too much.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:34 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

The point isn't the zero sum game. It's that if the country's prosperous, wages will go up. A lot. And your 5$ shirt won't cost 5$ dollars anymore. Sure, jobs might come back into the country, but you'll have to accept that, because everything made everywhere costs more, you'll effectively be poorer.

Would that be a better world? Probably. But the point is to understand the consequences of actions and accept them.
I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't see that as the big issue. It's amazing how much is done with automation which threatens even those low wage jobs in the poorest of countries today.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:40 PM   #379
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A post... errrr "grunt work" world (probably a better name for it) is one of those things that it's a lot easier to imagine living in then imaging living in the transitional period it takes to get to that world.

Everybody wants to live in a world where nobody has to do dangerous, boring, unpleasant, etc jobs. Nobody wants to in the world those jobs still exist but there's not enough of them to go around so some people have to do them and some don't and you wind up in the "have to" camp.
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:57 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I think it's up to Congress the House and the Senate to just build a wall around Donald Trump.
I think you had a brain fart.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:03 PM   #381
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There is no crisis or emergency at the border.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:07 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
There is no crisis or emergency at the border.
Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:38 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.
Are they trying to manufacture a crisis by not choosing a safe red district for their border show tomorrow? McAllen is not exactly a hotbed of Trump support. They have a Republican congressman but he's not in the Trump camp and has found other things to do rather than carry bags for Trump/Cruz/Cronyn. And the mayor is totally against the shutdown. I'm just wondering if Trump's "strategists"(for certain strange meanings of that word) are hoping for a bunch of crazed antifa thugs and baby-rapers and gangstas to help them by staging a riot.

His usual safe-zone instinct is to go to rural red districts (check out a map of his rallies in Florida). There are only a few left because just about the whole TX/MX border voted against him, but he could've found a safer one.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:54 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Are they trying to manufacture a crisis by not choosing a safe red district for their border show tomorrow? McAllen is not exactly a hotbed of Trump support. They have a Republican congressman but he's not in the Trump camp and has found other things to do rather than carry bags for Trump/Cruz/Cronyn. And the mayor is totally against the shutdown. I'm just wondering if Trump's "strategists"(for certain strange meanings of that word) are hoping for a bunch of crazed antifa thugs and baby-rapers and gangstas to help them by staging a riot.

His usual safe-zone instinct is to go to rural red districts (check out a map of his rallies in Florida). There are only a few left because just about the whole TX/MX border voted against him, but he could've found a safer one.
It's always possible with Trump. Crazy is his specialty.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:04 PM   #385
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From a Vanity Fair article linked by Squeegee Beckenheim in another thread:
Quote:
Another prominent Republican close to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell described Trump’s handling of the shutdown as “total ******* chaos.”
Seems even The Turtle is reaching the end of his tether, no matter what he says publicly.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:07 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.
The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:12 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.


O'Rourke hits El Paso streets to rebut Trump's immigration address


Quote:
“The president using fear and anecdote to try to instill an anxiety and paranoia to build the political will to construct this wall that would cost $30 billion and take private property and cause death and suffering as more asylum seekers are pushed to ever more hostile stretches of the U.S.-Mexico border — that was what we heard from the Oval Office,” O’Rourke said. “And we need to meet that fear with the truth, with our ambition, with the best traditions of this country, a country of immigrants, and with the example of El Paso and Juárez.”
https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2...-trump-1089194
If ever there was a time to put BETO front and center it is right now. Read the rest of the article.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:23 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way.

There simply isn't a good choice.
When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:28 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.
That would be sensible, and require introspection.

Can you see Trump doing either of those?
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:36 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.
It has been suggested that the shutdown crisis distracts attention from the Mueller probe has not escaped Donald Trump.....
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:39 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post


O'Rourke hits El Paso streets to rebut Trump's immigration address




If ever there was a time to put BETO front and center it is right now. Read the rest of the article.
Because Beto is good at getting himself on the news is not sufficient reason to anoint him as the Dems Candidate in 2020.
Of course the experience with Trump has made me very supiscious of any personality cult...and I see forming around Beto.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:42 PM   #392
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Looks like some GOP members are starting to consider trying make a deal with the Democrats without the President, floating the idea of offering the Democrats concessions on such long desired political goals as the "Dreamer" Program and H-2B Visas in exchange for funding Trump's wall.

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/polit...ors/index.html
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:47 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.
But of course the real conundrum is not that there may not be one better option, but the difficulty of knowing what that is.

One of my pet peeves is Monday morning quarterbacking. Second guessing those that Teddy Roosevelt said "that are in the Arena" For example, all those people that second guessed the pass at the end of the Seahawks Patriots Super Bowl that was intercepted.

Sure it's easy to say they should have done the obvious and run Marshawn Lynch. But that is hindsight. No one would have said anything if that pass had gone for a touchdown or was incomplete.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:50 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Because Beto is good at getting himself on the news is not sufficient reason to anoint him as the Dems Candidate in 2020.
Of course the experience with Trump has made me very supiscious of any personality cult...and I see forming around Beto.
Here's the thing though. Beto was a Congressman from El Paso. He grew up in that border town. On this issue he has standing. And he's one he'll of a lot more charismatic and persuasive than Pelosi and Schumer.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:57 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That would be sensible, and require introspection.

Can you see Trump doing either of those?
I was taking from the perspective of someone wondering "how to deal with this crazy man."
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:58 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Looks like some GOP members are starting to consider trying make a deal with the Democrats without the President, floating the idea of offering the Democrats concessions on such long desired political goals as the "Dreamer" Program and H-2B Visas in exchange for funding Trump's wall.

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/polit...ors/index.html
They already had that deal signed, sealed and nearly delivered three weeks ago. It's the one Trump refused to sign after listening to the voices on TV.
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:01 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Here's the thing though. Beto was a Congressman from El Paso. He grew up in that border town. On this issue he has standing. And he's one he'll of a lot more charismatic and persuasive than Pelosi and Schumer.
Agreed.

He also needs to get off script. Beto tossing out data points and a few poll tested paeans isn't going to cut it.

He's got to talk about his life experience. He has to be a face and a voice to a different perspective.

ETA: for all the people in front of the cameras in media the Democrats know, they sure as **** don't seem like they know any of the people who know how to do multimedia production and marketing AT ALL.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 9th January 2019 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:03 PM   #398
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Beto Is alos gong to have to show he can appeal to voters outside the Democratic Base.
And he has got to start showing us where he stands on issues other then those he has campaigned on.
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:27 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Beto Is alos gong to have to show he can appeal to voters outside the Democratic Base.
And he has got to start showing us where he stands on issues other then those he has campaigned on.
Didnt he do that by doing so well in Texas?
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:49 PM   #400
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Shutdown is about to get more real

Shutdown is about to get more real with almost a million workers about to miss a pay-check.
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