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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:35 PM   #121
theprestige
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No. You're the one that is making the claim. I didn't. You're the one who said that no-one is 'actually drowning' I assumed that was metaphorical.

That you would say that is the perfect example of pulling something out of one's ass.

You're right. I DON'T know what damage this is causing. But I can guess this is worrisome to some of those being affected by it.
I think it's reasonable to assume that this situation is worrisome to everybody. The question we might at some point get around to discussing is how worrisome it actually is, and why.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:37 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm saying it's possible and likely probable given the amount of savings most people have.
Show me the data.

Quote:
What should they do? Hand the toddler 5 billion dollars he can piss away on a monument to xenophobic stupidity?
It all depends what you consider to be the lesser of two evils. You make a compromise with the deal you have, not the deal you wish to have or plan to have at a later date.

You can't control Trump, but you can control your own choices. Decide what you want, and exercise your control to get it.

Quote:
For one who rants on this forum about wasteful government spending , I would think you would be outraged over this kind of lunacy.
Begging the question.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:41 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, sure. Somewhere out there is a government employee whose life is hanging by a thread. They live week to week, paycheck to paycheck. This shutdown has, or soon will, put them out on the street. There's probably more than one such person, actually. Is this your claim?



Congress could send a different bill to his desk, and nobody would suffer. Or somebody else would suffer. The problem isn't Trump's tantrum, it's the fundamental dysfunctionality of the federal government.
Trump has made it clear that he will NOT sign a bill that does not include his $5 Billion for his stupid wall. The Dems, representing the majority of Americans (who also do NOT want this stupid wall) are not going to give it to him. TRUMP promised this wall and he promised that Mexico was going to pay for it. They aren't. And neither is the America taxpayer. Congress is willing to compromise on Border Security spending by giving him $1.3 billion. Trump is not willing to compromise.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:51 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm saying it's possible and likely probable given the amount of savings most people have.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Show me the data.
Quote:
According to Bankrate's latest financial security index survey, 34 percent of American households experienced a major unexpected expense over the past year. However, only 39 percent of survey respondents said they would be able to cover a $1,000 setback using their savings.

"While tapping savings to pay off an emergency was the most common response, more than a third of Americans would sink into one type of debt or another, potentially harming their financial security," Bankrate says in the report.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/few-americans-have-enough-savings-to-cover-a-1000-emergency.html
What should they do? Hand the toddler 5 billion dollars he can piss away on a monument to xenophobic stupidity?

For one who rants on this forum about wasteful government spending , I would think you would be outraged over this kind of lunacy.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It all depends what you consider to be the lesser of two evils. You make a compromise with the deal you have, not the deal you wish to have or plan to have at a later date.

You can't control Trump, but you can control your own choices. Decide what you want, and exercise your control to get it.
That's a different issue. In the end, a deal will be made. But good government shouldn't be a moronic game of brinkmanship that screws with lives and the economy.

I can't remember this kind of nonsense before Newt Gringrich and since then the GOP has done this a half a dozen times. And Trump is doing this just to pretend he's tough to Ann Coulter and the crazies that listen to whackjob right wing radio.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:09 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What percentage of your blood have you lost through the wound? It has to be above a certain percent before you get treatment.

Well, yes, exactly. If it's below that percentage you put your own bandage on it and keep working your three no-benefit part-time jobs, because you certainly can't afford to miss a paycheck, let alone to pay the deductibles your Obamacare health plan has.

But we're not talking about anyone in that class, are we? Not the man with no feet, or even the man with no shoes. Nor even the man whose shoes are worn because they're watching every dime so they can afford savings. We're talking about people whose next pair of shoes might not be Jimmy Choos. Unless they've been very foolish or very unlucky (e.g. now paying alimony, child support, or large medical debt) with their finances in the past.

"The government I work for (regardless of party) has promoted policies that undercut your wages and offshored your jobs for decades, but it's so unfair for me to suffer the hardship of a missed paycheck or a layoff." That absurdly entitled attitude has a lot to do with the reasons Trump is in office in the first place. Working-class Americans have been told over and over that no one is entitled to wages beyond how much their employer values the work they perform. Even wage minimums, wage-earners are told, should be seen as a form of public charity rather than anything workers actually deserve.

Well, for the moment, some government employees' work is now being valued at zero by their employer. Besides the class of the people affected, is there any reason that's not just business as usual?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:23 PM   #126
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I have to admit that I find it really weird.

Here the heads of the government departments put in reports for how much they need and why. This is considered by Treasury and the Minister of Finance and a Budget is determined by working with primarily Treasury, The Minister of Finance, and the Prime Minister. This Budget is then published by Treasury and tabled in Parliament where it is voted on. It generally passes as the Government (i.e. the party in power) and its allies on supply and confidence will all vote for it, and the opposition (parties not in power or allied to the Government) will vote against it and offer their own "shadow" budget.

Once voted for, that Budget will set the Government spending for the next year, unless there is something big that occurs were changes have to be made, e.g. the Christchurch Earthquake. There is no way to shut down Government Departments because the only way to do so would be to have the numbers to defeat the Budget, but that is all but impossible considering our form of Coalition Governments which mean that the Government Benches and their allies always outnumber the opposition ones.

Yeah, so the US system is really weird.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:41 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I have to admit that I find it really weird.

Here the heads of the government departments put in reports for how much they need and why. This is considered by Treasury and the Minister of Finance and a Budget is determined by working with primarily Treasury, The Minister of Finance, and the Prime Minister. This Budget is then published by Treasury and tabled in Parliament where it is voted on. It generally passes as the Government (i.e. the party in power) and its allies on supply and confidence will all vote for it, and the opposition (parties not in power or allied to the Government) will vote against it and offer their own "shadow" budget.

Once voted for, that Budget will set the Government spending for the next year, unless there is something big that occurs were changes have to be made, e.g. the Christchurch Earthquake. There is no way to shut down Government Departments because the only way to do so would be to have the numbers to defeat the Budget, but that is all but impossible considering our form of Coalition Governments which mean that the Government Benches and their allies always outnumber the opposition ones.

Yeah, so the US system is really weird.
The Presidential system of government has been a failure in almost every country that has adopted it. It might just be America's worst export. It has worked in the US up until recently since politicians until the mid 1990s didn't play these kind of political brinkmanship games.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:00 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That is an excellent question that everybody involved should probably have asked themselves before they got into this game of chicken. Congress could have safeguarded the financial stability (and indeed the lives) of millions of Americans simply by approving a bill they knew the President would sign. Instead, they chose to play a game of brinkmanship with an a naive and self-centered idiot. What could go wrong, indeed?
Sure, because just giving a "naive and self-centered idiot" exactly what he wants is sure to be a wise decision.

You really haven't thought this through very well, have you? LOL!
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:02 PM   #129
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And so the Democratic Party has become the party of fiscal responsibility.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:08 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Sure, because just giving a "naive and self-centered idiot" exactly what he wants is sure to be a wise decision.



You really haven't thought this through very well, have you? LOL!
What's the wisdom of shutting down the government?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's the wisdom of shutting down the government?
What's the wisdom of placating an idiot?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:11 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's... true, though.

I'm now amusing myself with the mental image of a kid being rushed through the ER on a gurney, blood seeping from a scrape on his knee, and the duty nurse running alongside screaming, "he's losing blood fast, get me fifty cc's of hemoglobin stat! Code blue! Code blue!"
Yes, it's quite hilarious when people bleed out. Or don't get paid. I hope you retain your humor about those things if they happen to you. Can that be our wish for 2019?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:15 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, it's quite hilarious when people bleed out. Or don't get paid. I hope you retain your humor about those things if they happen to you. Can that be our wish for 2019?
It can't happen to him. He has a Sandwich, which means other people cannot be hungry.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:18 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What's the wisdom of placating an idiot?
One of these is the lesser of two evils. One of these is the principled choice, and should be defended on that basis. It's been proposed in this thread that the government shutdown has put American lives at risk. Are you prepared to defend it?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:19 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, it's quite hilarious when people bleed out. Or don't get paid. I hope you retain your humor about those things if they happen to you. Can that be our wish for 2019?
Your sister and her husband are bleeding out (financially), twelve days into the shutdown?

Or did you simply mean that they've scraped their knee, but we should pretend they're bleeding out, in the service of the narrative?

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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:23 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of these is the lesser of two evils. One of these is the principled choice, and should be defended on that basis. It's been proposed in this thread that the government shutdown has put American lives at risk. Are you prepared to defend it?
The problem of course is throwing 5 billion dollars down a toilet defensible? And let's be
truthful, we are dealing both with an idiot and a terrorist. If you pay him now, he'll only try this again.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:25 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of these is the lesser of two evils. One of these is the principled choice, and should be defended on that basis. It's been proposed in this thread that the government shutdown has put American lives at risk. Are you prepared to defend it?
If your 2-year old throws a temper tantrum in the supermarket isle because you won't buy him a chocolate bar, do you reward that sort of behaviour by giving in and giving him the chocolate?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:31 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem of course is throwing 5 billion dollars down a toilet defensible? And let's be

truthful, we are dealing both with an idiot and a terrorist. If you pay him now, he'll only try this again.
These are good points. Keep this up, and you'll actually be defending the shutdown as the only moral choice given the situation.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful and well reasoned replies. I'm going to give this thread some thought, and then sleep on it. Who knows? Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow with a new perspective on this issue.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:35 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of these is the lesser of two evils. One of these is the principled choice, and should be defended on that basis. It's been proposed in this thread that the government shutdown has put American lives at risk. Are you prepared to defend it?
Looks to me like others are defending it just fine. I'm asking YOU to defend YOUR proposal of placating a "naive and self-centered idiot". Are you prepared to do that?

And let me also remind you that YOU agreed a mere two pages ago that this shut down belongs to the same "naive and self-centered idiot":

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good point. I withdraw my previous rebuttal. Trump owns this one.
Why then are you back to pretending it's not? Looks to me like you're just desperately trying to find some way to spin this so that it's not Trump's fault....when in fact, as you've already agreed, it most certainly IS.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:36 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If your 2-year old throws a temper tantrum in the supermarket isle because you won't buy him a chocolate bar, do you reward that sort of behaviour by giving in and giving him the chocolate?
If a mob boss points a gun at your father's head and tells you to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars to line the mob boss's pockets, do you reward that sort of behavior, etc.?

What are we even talking about, exactly?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:39 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your sister and her husband are bleeding out (financially), twelve days into the shutdown?

Or did you simply mean that they've scraped their knee, but we should pretend they're bleeding out, in the service of the narrative?
My sister and her husband are, through no fault of their own, not being paid by their employers. As a result they having to utilize emergency funds which they otherwise would not have had to use. This is undesirable. It is a bad thing to happen. They are worried. You don't think it's a problem because it doesn't affect you. You say that other people's problems have to reach a certain level of what you consider to be sufficiently bad before they can trouble the people having the problem. But really I think there's no level of awful other people can suffer before you sympathize. You got yours, screw everybody else.

To you, everything I said here is just a chance to attack anybody who disagrees with you, win "points" in an endless internet argument. This thread, which I remind you was not started by you and is not controlled by you, was asking about experiences with the shut down. I supplied one. You got mad because I disagreed with your "it's no big deal" spin on it, and as a result you chose to repeatedly attack my family, suggesting they're spendthrifts or fools because they can't shrug off not being paid as lightly as you do on their behalf. That stinks, dude. Hey, I think there's a thread about when my dad died. Want to dredge it up and attack him for not meeting your lofty standards of health? Cancer can't be a really serious problem if you don't have it.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:39 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If a mob boss points a gun at your father's head and tells you to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars to line the mob boss's pockets, do you reward that sort of behavior, etc.?

What are we even talking about, exactly?
We're talking about your proposal of placating a "naive and self-centered idiot".

Did you honestly forget, or was this just a bit of dissembling on your part due to the fact that you can't defend your proposal?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:54 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If a mob boss points a gun at your father's head and tells you to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars to line the mob boss's pockets, do you reward that sort of behavior, etc.?

What are we even talking about, exactly?
Is this how you think Donny operates? Holding guns to peoples' heads? That he is that confident and powerful?

Honestly, do you realise how silly that sounds? Donny has almost nothing left of potency to use as a weapon except for withholding his signature as president - hardly "deadly". And that is all he is using now. The Dems realise that he is simply tantrumming and are not playing along. They have already told him firmly his tushy is about to be tanned if he keeps this up. The Dems also realise the situation, but they are prepared to make everyone else in the country suffer in order to try to placate one screaming toddler. So now it is simply a contest as to who can put up with Trump acting out in public longer - the US public or the GOP.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:00 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My sister and her husband are, through no fault of their own, not being paid by their employers.
Well, it is their own damn fault for being so foolish as to work for an employer that has a history of shutdowns that have largely lasted a few days at most. Tell them to just quit and go find jobs elsewhere!
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:12 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
These are good points. Keep this up, and you'll actually be defending the shutdown as the only moral choice given the situation.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful and well reasoned replies. I'm going to give this thread some thought, and then sleep on it. Who knows? Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow with a new perspective on this issue.
I'm NOT defending the Trump shutdown. A shutdown caused by one man, Mr. LIAR IN CHIEF. Trump said he would build a wall and MEXICO would pay. But MEXICO isn't paying. So Trump is now holding the American taxpayer and the American economy hostage.

WTF?!!


That isn't leadership, that is terrorism. Trump is tearing the country apart at the seams. Putin couldn't have done more damage if he launched an ICBM.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:17 PM   #146
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I'm federal. Forest Service, Previously with BLM, NPS, and Peace Corps, 20 years of service.

We have not yet missed a paycheck, payroll generally gets deposited a week or so after the end of the pay period. If the shutdown ends, the staff that run the payroll system can run a batch processor to pay everyone; there is minimal time needed to process that, so they can still pay us on time (without missing any paychecks) if they shutdown ends before the 9th or so. This assumes Congress and the President approve back pay - the Senate has already done so nearly unanimously, the Dem controlled house is expect to as well.

Money is already tight before the shutdown is factored in, we are a single income household in an expensive area (check out Denver real estate inflation). That said, I have a generally very secure job with good benefits. There is not much private sector equivalent to my specific job, so it is hard to say if I would make more in private sector or not - that said, I appreciate the job security I have.

Tomorrow I'll start calling our mortgage and car loan people to see if they offer deferments, I'll call my bank or stop by a branch as well.

We have a lot of preserved and frozen food in the house, it should not be hard to limit groceries to produce and dairy for as much as a month or two. Currently I am torn between starting some work on the house (removing the "popcorn" texture from our ceilings), or looking for temporary work. At best, I can get a temp job at about 1/3 my current salary. This house is pretty run down, so working on it is not a luxury or waste of time. I also need to do a bunch of plumbing work and stabilize a garden shed that seems to want to fall down. If I get a temp job, I would not get paid for a few weeks anyway, by then the shutdown might be over.

This one does feel different to me. It might end this week, it might drag on far longer than anything that's happened for decades.

I know a lot of people in the Park Service, they are hearing of significant damage to many park sites. Trash, feces, off-road driving, all that. There will be a lot of cleanup to do, much of it will have to wait until the trash melts out of the snow in the spring.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:20 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm NOT defending the Trump shutdown. A shutdown caused by one man, Mr. LIAR IN CHIEF. Trump said he would build a wall and MEXICO would pay. But MEXICO isn't paying. So Trump is now holding the American taxpayer and the American economy hostage.

WTF?!!


That isn't leadership, that is terrorism. Trump is tearing the country apart at the seams. Putin couldn't have done more damage if he launched an ICBM.
Trump is worse. An actual missile attack would unite the country just as 9/11 did. Russia has achieved its wildest dream: disrupt, demoralize, and divide the US from within.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:36 PM   #148
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Some folk seem to think of The Government as some kind of organism outside of the normal flow of life. As though it's a faceless, impersonal thing. Not realizing--or refusing to see--that it's *us*, the people. And just as all kinds of folk employed in the private sector can be living on the financial edge (for a whole host of reasons), so too can some number of public servants.

Even though we are still in the early days of this shutdown, the uncertainty of the duration can be a source of stress. If one *knew* it would end by the end of week two or three, even the paltriest reserves of capital could tide one through. But not knowing when it'll end, imagining the possibility of a month, or two months with no income and insufficient savings...

To blithely discount the plight of some civil servants because of the retention of some notion of beurocracy as a faceless entity betrays a corrosive coarsening of empathy.

But the Dems should hold fast to principle. Rewarding an ignoramus who:

- is an immature toddler who cares only for himself,
- adheres to extra-governmental far right whackjobs on matters of policy,
- renegs on deals,
- is altering his campaign promise of the source of Wall funds,
- and is unwilling to compromise on a matter hardly of existential import for the country,

would be to effectively reward a hostage-holding bully.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:14 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My sister and her husband are, through no fault of their own, not being paid by their employers. As a result they having to utilize emergency funds which they otherwise would not have had to use. This is undesirable. It is a bad thing to happen. They are worried. You don't think it's a problem because it doesn't affect you. You say that other people's problems have to reach a certain level of what you consider to be sufficiently bad before they can trouble the people having the problem. But really I think there's no level of awful other people can suffer before you sympathize. You got yours, screw everybody else.

To you, everything I said here is just a chance to attack anybody who disagrees with you, win "points" in an endless internet argument. This thread, which I remind you was not started by you and is not controlled by you, was asking about experiences with the shut down. I supplied one. You got mad because I disagreed with your "it's no big deal" spin on it, and as a result you chose to repeatedly attack my family, suggesting they're spendthrifts or fools because they can't shrug off not being paid as lightly as you do on their behalf. That stinks, dude. Hey, I think there's a thread about when my dad died. Want to dredge it up and attack him for not meeting your lofty standards of health? Cancer can't be a really serious problem if you don't have it.
I'm quoting this just so it sinks in and people realize what the problem is here.

The sad fact is theprestige was not always like this. He had better thought out opinions and posts than what we can see in this thread. I probably would not agree with those opinions, but at least they were genuine attempts to explain or argue, and not these sullen-teen attempts at gameplaying accented with Ayn Randish levels of mockery & cruelty we're seeing now.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:17 PM   #150
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Exactly---the government is Americans serving their country. People stupid enough to serve the United States are expendable trash to Republicans.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:21 PM   #151
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As Trump himself has said countless times, his presidency is about "winning". Not you winning, though. Only about Trump winning. You can lose, the GOP can lose, the USA can lose, everyone else can lose, he won't give a rats if he wins personally.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 12:13 AM   #152
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
As Trump himself has said countless times, his presidency is about "winning". Not you winning, though. Only about Trump winning. You can lose, the GOP can lose, the USA can lose, everyone else can lose, he won't give a rats if he wins personally.
Exactly. As I said earlier, he is driven by his narcissistic need to 'win' at all costs regardless of who it hurts. As long as he gets his way, his ego gets fed. And his ego is a ravenous beast that must be fed on a regular and frequent basis.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 12:22 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It hasn't even been two weeks yet. Most government employees should not already be "burning through their savings", as TragicMonkey put it.
This is irrelevant. If you have to deal with a loss of a couple of weeks of income more often than necessary then you have to make greater provision for that and that costs money.

That is assuming that you have the opportunity to make provision for loss of income.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:50 AM   #154
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is irrelevant. If you have to deal with a loss of a couple of weeks of income more often than necessary then you have to make greater provision for that and that costs money.

That is assuming that you have the opportunity to make provision for loss of income.
That's a nice way of saying that it reeks of "privilege". Not to mention a whole lot of What Business Is it of Yours.

The holiday period is hard on many people and they're stretched to the limit if not further in credit card debt. Wage earners in working class families, especially larger families, have all sorts of commitments and reciprocal gifting requirements (auntie X bought your kids presents, now auntie X is going to be in town, cousins you've never met but always send a ten buck gift certificate to because they've always sent something similar to you, etc...). Christmas dinner, alone, can put you up against it.

By the time that last paycheck of December or the first one in January comes around, they're already worrying about how to pay bills and try to write down some debts AND make it through the rest of January.

"Oh, just cash in one of your money market accounts" seems superfluous to people who don't have such.

I have no reason not to believe TM's anecdote. There are over 800,000 employees in various government units that are facing no paychecks. The chance that one of us would know at least one person or family who fits into the lives-from-paycheck-to-paycheck mode are pretty high. I think that each of us can name someone who does so. The stretch to knowing someone who's a government employee who does so doesn't really require a great leap of logic.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 04:28 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The rest of your post was correct, and I had no objection to it.

Citing your Location tag was a waste of time, though.
Thanks so much for acknowledging the obvious.

My advice to you is that when you respond to what a person has posted, that you actually do read read what a person has posted to simply reacting to the one bit that happens to get your attention.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:09 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I have to admit that I find it really weird.

Here the heads of the government departments put in reports for how much they need and why. This is considered by Treasury and the Minister of Finance and a Budget is determined by working with primarily Treasury, The Minister of Finance, and the Prime Minister. This Budget is then published by Treasury and tabled in Parliament where it is voted on. It generally passes as the Government (i.e. the party in power) and its allies on supply and confidence will all vote for it, and the opposition (parties not in power or allied to the Government) will vote against it and offer their own "shadow" budget.

Once voted for, that Budget will set the Government spending for the next year, unless there is something big that occurs were changes have to be made, e.g. the Christchurch Earthquake. There is no way to shut down Government Departments because the only way to do so would be to have the numbers to defeat the Budget, but that is all but impossible considering our form of Coalition Governments which mean that the Government Benches and their allies always outnumber the opposition ones.

Yeah, so the US system is really weird.
In the US there are 3 separate considerations.
1) The budget which grants the President the authority to spend money on the items contained in the budget
2) Appropriations, which funds the budget. This is a separate bill from the actual budget
3) Debt ceiling. There is a separate law limiting the total debt the US government may incur and this may need to be altered even if the budget and appropriations bills are in place.

I’m not familiar with exactly how NZ works but my guess is that it has a similar internal government process, probably managed someplace within a department of finance (or similar title). For any major item will need to follow a two step process, the first is for it to be included in the budget (or fit within the budget) the second would be to manage government cash flow which would release the money to actually spend.

IOW in most countries simply being in the budget still isn't enough to actually spend money, there is still a separate approval required to actually transfer any money. The basic difference in the US is that the branch of government that provides the authority for this to happen is different than the one that presides over it’s actual execution so it needs to be a little more public.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:13 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
"Oh, just cash in one of your money market accounts" seems superfluous to people who don't have such.

From The Onion's "An Open Letter to A Starving Child"

Quote:
Dear Starving Child,

I saw your picture in one of these "Feed The Children" magazine ads. It said your mother dumped you in a Sri Lankan back-alley trash heap, and that you've been a street urchin, begging for scraps from Bedouin traders, since you were five. And it said for two cents a day I could feed you. Well, I must say, I don't know how you can live like that. I mean, what are you thinking?

If I were you, I'd high-tail it home and make myself a juicy ham sandwich with some cheese on it, then I'd put it in the microwave so the cheese melts and the sandwich is nice and warm. In fact, I'd toast the bread so it has a little crunch to it.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:29 AM   #158
lomiller
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
And so the Democratic Party has become the party of fiscal responsibility.
Welcome to the 1990’s. Republicans have been the party of “borrow and spend” since 1980 Democrats have been the party of “lets actually pay for things we want” since 1990.


Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What's the wisdom of placating an idiot?


Not everyone is going to agree on what to spend money on and some money wasting boondoggles will have significant popular support. Money will only be spent on things my party supports isn’t or at least shouldn’t be viable so the traditional answer is to say you have your spending priorities we have ours lets sit down and agree on which ones we can do so we both get some of what we want.

A real problem the US has is that the only type of negotiating Republicans are willing to engage in is “how much of what we want are Democrats willing to give us” this isn’t a workable way to run government. If Trump wants a wall needs to either give up something Republicans have already negotiated for, or he needs to offer something new that Democrats want. If he’s willing to come to the table with these Democrats should consider it regardless of whether the wall is a boondoggle or not, if he isn’t they need to keep ignoring him.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:37 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of these is the lesser of two evils. One of these is the principled choice, and should be defended on that basis. It's been proposed in this thread that the government shutdown has put American lives at risk. Are you prepared to defend it?
There is a reason why the US refuses to negotiate with terrorists and other groups who threaten harm to the US and its citizens unless they get what they want. Republicans should be treated no differently. Threats to harm Americans can’t become the reason to grant concessions.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:58 AM   #160
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Quote:
What's the wisdom of placating an idiot?
One of these is the lesser of two evils.
The lesser of 2 evils is still evil.

I don't think you quite grasped that concept yet.

And when you are forced to choose the lesser of 2 evils, you should not be blaming the people making the choice between the 2 evils (i.e. the democrats, or those opposed to border wall boondoggle funding.), but between the person forcing that choice to be made (i.e. trump).

Quote:
One of these is the principled choice, and should be defended on that basis. It's been proposed in this thread that the government shutdown has put American lives at risk. Are you prepared to defend it?
As I have pointed out... the decision to stand up to Trump and not to fund the wall is not simply one of "principles". I have also pointed out real problems with funding the wall.... increased government debt, higher tax burdens, expropriation (which could be called "stealing") of people's land, environmental harm, and the possibility that such brinkmanship will be used in the future. People (i.e. taxpayers/citizens/etc.) are going to get harmed either way. The fact that we think the shutdown is the "lesser of 2 evils" doesn't mean that we LIKE the shutdown or deserve any blame for it whatsoever.

The ONLY people who deserve blame for the shut down are Trump and his enablers (in congress and republican voters.)
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