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Old 5th January 2019, 07:52 AM   #241
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It's a matter of how much the GOP are prepared to lose. They are realists, ultimately. When Trump is just too much of a burden, they will cut him loose, and of course Pence will have to step in. I suspect a 25th amendment solution will be tried, and "regrettably", Trump will be "sent to care". Trump himself will rant and be a public pest, but he will be sidelined.
The 25th Amendment still requires a 2/3 majority vote in both houses. Almost any Republican voting for removal would face a primary challenge. They'd have to do it next year so that pro Trump candidates couldn't organize primary campaigns in time.

ETA: The vote happens assuming Trump communicates to the leaders of the House and Senate that he is able to perfume the duties of the office. If he goes along with it, no vote is required.

Last edited by Craig4; 5th January 2019 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 5th January 2019, 08:32 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The 25th Amendment still requires a 2/3 majority vote in both houses. Almost any Republican voting for removal would face a primary challenge. They'd have to do it next year so that pro Trump candidates couldn't organize primary campaigns in time.

ETA: The vote happens assuming Trump communicates to the leaders of the House and Senate that he is able to perfume the duties of the office. If he goes along with it, no vote is required.
Something about this smells...
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Old 5th January 2019, 08:59 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
If, according to the right wingers, ”government does not do anything”, why is this shut down harmful? All they would be doing is regulating anyway. Now free enterprise can burn unlimited coal! And all regulations are bad. Win win! Send Trump to Florida for 2 years, ad we don’t need him either.
Don't worry. Just wait and see how cocky and self-righteous they are when they don't get their tax-refunds.
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:20 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It's a matter of how much the GOP are prepared to lose. They are realists, ultimately. When Trump is just too much of a burden, they will cut him loose, and of course Pence will have to step in. I suspect a 25th amendment solution will be tried, and "regrettably", Trump will be "sent to care". Trump himself will rant and be a public pest, but he will be sidelined.
If I recall correctly, the 25th Amendment process for removing the President is started with a majority vote of cabinet officers. A group best described as “yes men” chosen for their personal loyalty to Trump rather than skill or expertise. There may be plenty of realists in the GOP but few of them are in a position to do anything.
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:28 AM   #245
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Trump is the only President against who a 25th would stick, since he has no clue how to inform Congress of anything unless he has an army of lackeys guiding him every step of the way.
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Old 5th January 2019, 01:56 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The 25th Amendment still requires a 2/3 majority vote in both houses. Almost any Republican voting for removal would face a primary challenge. They'd have to do it next year so that pro Trump candidates couldn't organize primary campaigns in time.

ETA: The vote happens assuming Trump communicates to the leaders of the House and Senate that he is able to perfume the duties of the office. If he goes along with it, no vote is required.

I think "stink them up" would be a more apt description of what he does.
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Old 5th January 2019, 03:27 PM   #247
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Another thing that might drive the 25th dismissal forward is also the Mueller thing.

Donny is ****-scared of what Mueller knows and has not yet used. So he can't fall back on his "good record" or legitimacy. So if he tries to convince the government he is "capable" in defiance of the 25th, that's a big problem. His record is very bad. It is one half of a nut-cracker that Trump is in.

The other half is his extraordinarily insane behaviour in public and his general conduct. Lord knows what he is like in private but rumour has it he is even worse. That the 25th is even being discussed suggests those in the know have serious doubts about his grip on reality.
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:21 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I suspect a 25th amendment solution will be tried, and "regrettably", Trump will be "sent to care".
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Another thing that might drive the 25th dismissal forward is also the Mueller thing.
This is just wishful thinking. An impeachment is more likely than 2/3 of both houses declaring Trump unfit for office.

But 2 x 0 = 0
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:34 PM   #249
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Quote:
Trump exasperated members of both parties during the meeting in the Situation Room, but Trump spent Friday evening boasting to friends that he was in a strong negotiating position because he was able to capture the attention of the political world and make a flurry of points that he feels his core voters appreciate, White House officials said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...8c7_story.html

The deals, Donny! Where are them deals at?! You said there was gonna be deals now cough them up!
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:10 PM   #250
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:53 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is just wishful thinking. An impeachment is more likely than 2/3 of both houses declaring Trump unfit for office.
Yeah, it is wishful thinking. Far more likely is he will complete his term but never be nominated again. But he will still be dogged by the Mueller inquiry. It won't stop just because he leaves the presidency. In fact, if there IS anything in Mueller's investigations, Trump is more in jeopardy the moment he is no longer president.

The only concern between now and 2020 is how much more damage Donny will do before he goes.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
...
Building a wall is like a Dutch boy putting his finger in a dike.
Perhaps a better analogy would be,

Building the wall is like building a dike with with multiple, large finger holes in it.

In a desert.
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:20 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Building a wall is like a Dutch boy putting his finger in a dike. Much better to just relieve the pressure on the other side.
The problem with that analogy is that putting his finger in the dyke turned out to be a successful strategy.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:29 AM   #254
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The grifting continues scandalously.

Quote:
Smithsonian museums are closed. There are no federal staffers to answer tourists’ questions at the Lincoln Memorial. And across the United States, national parks are cluttered with trash. Yet despite the federal government shutdown, a historic clock tower at the Trump International Hotel remained open Friday for its handful of visitors, staffed by green-clad National Park Service rangers.

“We’re open!” one National Park Service ranger declared around lunchtime, pushing an elevator button for a lone visitor entering the site through a side entrance to ride to the top of the 315-foot-high, nearly 120-year-old clock tower.

The Trump administration appears to have gone out of its way to keep the attraction in the federally owned building that houses the Trump hotel open and staffed with National Park Service rangers, even as other federal agencies shut all but the most essential services.

Amanda Osborn, a spokeswoman for the General Services Administration, which owns the building and leases it to the Trump Organization, said in an email that the shutdown exemption for the comparatively little-known clock tower was “unrelated to the facility’s tenant” — the Trump business. The agency says the law that put it in charge of the site obligates it to keep it open, even as federal Washington closes around it.

But the scene at the modest historic site at the Trump hotel building, where rangers often outnumber visitors, marked the latest episode in which Trump’s business interests have overlapped with the work of the federal government, creating at least the appearance of a conflict of interest.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:00 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Another thing that might drive the 25th dismissal forward is also the Mueller thing.

Donny is ****-scared of what Mueller knows and has not yet used. So he can't fall back on his "good record" or legitimacy. So if he tries to convince the government he is "capable" in defiance of the 25th, that's a big problem. His record is very bad. It is one half of a nut-cracker that Trump is in.

The other half is his extraordinarily insane behaviour in public and his general conduct. Lord knows what he is like in private but rumour has it he is even worse. That the 25th is even being discussed suggests those in the know have serious doubts about his grip on reality.
One thing that continues to give me the warm-fuzzies is that Trump certainly knows what Trump did, and he knows that Mueller knows at least some of it too, but he doesn't know how much and which bits - it has to be driving him absolutely bat****.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:03 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
One thing that continues to give me the warm-fuzzies is that Trump certainly knows what Trump did, and he knows that Mueller knows at least some of it too, but he doesn't know how much and which bits - it has to be driving him absolutely bat****.
It's a short drive.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:41 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's a short drive.
And he probably needs a golf cart even for that...
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:45 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
And he probably needs a golf cart even for that...
There might be stairs.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:46 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The problem with that analogy is that putting his finger in the dyke turned out to be a successful strategy.
Exactly. The dike held the water back until a hole appeared, then it was addressed. If the dike had been properly maintained we wouldn't even need the kid to help.

Walls and other barriers work well for many things.

Here is a good article on whether or not walls are effective for border security worldwide. Their results are mixed, but it depends on how you look at it.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...ized-migration

One thing they mention is that border crossings at the US/Mexico border all but stop where there is a new wall/barrier built and guarded.

Another result is that migrants and smugglers move to other areas like Arizona where there is desert and it is much more dangerous to cross, but there is no proper barrier.

People that live in these areas make the same claim - that when a wall or significant barrier goes up they see almost zero illegals crossing their land.

Some areas may be too dangerous for illegals to consider crossing and wouldn't require a barrier.

The people fighting this aren't only against a wall. They are against doing anything. They want them to vote, drive here legally, sanctuary etc. It isn't about the wall. It's mainly about Trump and a little about liberal idealism, I guess.

I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:49 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
Sharks with frickin' laser beams?
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:58 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Exactly. The dike held the water back until a hole appeared, then it was addressed. If the dike had been properly maintained we wouldn't even need the kid to help.

Walls and other barriers work well for many things.

Here is a good article on whether or not walls are effective for border security worldwide. Their results are mixed, but it depends on how you look at it.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...ized-migration

One thing they mention is that border crossings at the US/Mexico border all but stop where there is a new wall/barrier built and guarded.

Another result is that migrants and smugglers move to other areas like Arizona where there is desert and it is much more dangerous to cross, but there is no proper barrier.

People that live in these areas make the same claim - that when a wall or significant barrier goes up they see almost zero illegals crossing their land.

Some areas may be too dangerous for illegals to consider crossing and wouldn't require a barrier.

The people fighting this aren't only against a wall. They are against doing anything. They want them to vote, drive here legally, sanctuary etc. It isn't about the wall. It's mainly about Trump and a little about liberal idealism, I guess.

I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
Perhaps you should look at the biggest gaps in your border first and fill those: Mainland USA and Canada, Alaska and Canada, all your coastlines including Alaska and Hawaii. So far, almost zero walls there. So who knows how much illegal people-smuggling and drugs and **** are crossing there!
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:06 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Exactly. The dike held the water back until a hole appeared, then it was addressed. If the dike had been properly maintained we wouldn't even need the kid to help.

Walls and other barriers work well for many things.

Here is a good article on whether or not walls are effective for border security worldwide. Their results are mixed, but it depends on how you look at it.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...ized-migration

One thing they mention is that border crossings at the US/Mexico border all but stop where there is a new wall/barrier built and guarded.

Another result is that migrants and smugglers move to other areas like Arizona where there is desert and it is much more dangerous to cross, but there is no proper barrier.

People that live in these areas make the same claim - that when a wall or significant barrier goes up they see almost zero illegals crossing their land.

Some areas may be too dangerous for illegals to consider crossing and wouldn't require a barrier.

The people fighting this aren't only against a wall. They are against doing anything. They want them to vote, drive here legally, sanctuary etc. It isn't about the wall. It's mainly about Trump and a little about liberal idealism, I guess.

I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
What a bunch of racist xenophobic nonsense. Did you even read the article you linked to?


Here is the salient point in the conclusion.

Quote:
meaning walls are relatively ineffective. The first reason is that on longer borders, it is extremely difficult to fence the entire length and adequately guard it. Building fencing or a wall also entails acquiring the necessary land, building and maintaining roads, and supplying the necessary manpower to guard the barrier. The U.S.-Mexico border only has fencing over one-third of its 1,969-mile length. Even the heavily fortified Israeli wall in the West Bank is only two-thirds finished. A second reason that walls are not effective is that many unauthorized movements, particularly those of terrorists or smugglers, do not happen between crossing points. A significant share of unauthorized immigrants in the United States entered with a valid visa and then simply never left, overstaying the terms of their visa.

Additionally, many smuggled goods come through ports of entry or through tunnels built under the walls. The United States has found 150 tunnels under the U.S.-Mexico border since the 1990s, some of which are quite sophisticated with ventilation systems and even rails to quickly move carts.
You act as if the US does nothing about illegal immigration. In fact, we spend billions of dollars to combat it. But there always will be as long as the world is separated between the haves and total poverty.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 6th January 2019 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:42 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
There might be stairs.

I think the Daleks have that sorted now.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:52 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...ized-migration

One thing they mention is that border crossings at the US/Mexico border all but stop where there is a new wall/barrier built and guarded.

Another result is that migrants and smugglers move to other areas like Arizona where there is desert and it is much more dangerous to cross, but there is no proper barrier.

People that live in these areas make the same claim - that when a wall or significant barrier goes up they see almost zero illegals crossing their land.

Some areas may be too dangerous for illegals to consider crossing and wouldn't require a barrier.

The people fighting this aren't only against a wall. They are against doing anything. They want them to vote, drive here legally, sanctuary etc. It isn't about the wall. It's mainly about Trump and a little about liberal idealism, I guess.

I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
Unless a wall is built across the entire length of the border, which is impossible, then migrants will continue to do what they have always done: they will simply cross the more dangerous areas where the wall doesn't exist and more will die. We would likely see more migrants coming in by boat via the Pacific and the Gulf of Mexico.

As for your claim that those against the wall "want (illegals) to vote", I've already addressed your very misleading claim earlier regarding San Francisco. Once again, that was restricted to a local school board committee election.

If illegals are allowed to drive legally, that does not change their illegal standing or the consequences of being her illegally. To get a license, the immigrant would have to pass a driving test, present registration, and insurance. Tell me, would you rather be hit by someone with insurance or without? Do you think not having a license deters them from driving?
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:09 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
Taking citizens’ land at gunpoint under the guise of a “national emergency”?
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:13 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
So do I and the Democrats. But a multi-billion dollar concrete wall just isn't reasonable.

(You do realize that you just contradicted your first sentence with your second, don't you?)
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:33 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
Taking citizens’ land at gunpoint under the guise of a “national emergency”?
I view Mgid's point as ridiculous. It leads me to the following questions.

What is 'as secure as reasonably possible'?
Also, how does he know that is not happening?

And what does that mean? What is reasonable?
How much money is he willing to spend to secure the border?
And what should we do after pissing away 100 billion away on a wall that ISN'T EFFECTIVE?

Should we close our borders and not import any goods from outside the country?
There are 350 million border crossings every year. Really MGID?

And secure from what? Drug smuggling? Illegal immigration? Because the dumbass wall won't stop either one.

Trump is a moron. His wall is moronic. And the people that support him are clueless and GULLIBLE. Trump said Mexico will pay. And his idiots ate it up. But anyone with a brain knew Mexico wasn't going to pay for it. As the President of Mexico said, 'Mexico is not going to pay for his ******* WALL'!

Why aren't you hammering Trump for lying ALL through his campaign?
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:50 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's really weird is how little impact the shutdown has on the daily lives of most citizens, compared to the amount of hype it receives.

Maybe there's no thread because after half a dozen of these things it's finally starting to sink in that the "government shutdown" is really just a miserable pile of political grandstanding and bureaucratic shenanigans, and that we all have better things to do with our lives than worry too much about it.
Ouch, but probably true.

Quote:
Though we're posting here, so maybe the whole "better things to do" bit isn't quite true...
Idem.
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:58 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In other words, Mitch needs to grow a pair, or at least get his back from Trump so he can stand up to him and show Trump what it means to have different Branches of Government with their own set of powers. Up until now for some reason the GOP have just meekly handed over their power entirely to Trump, something that would have had the Founders rolling in their graves considering the lengths they went to, to make sure that no one person would hold all the power chips in the US Government.
The wife of a senator (a very influential senator) is an at-will employee of the president. This means that the president could fire the wife of the senator if the senator votes differently than what the president wants. Does anyone have a problem with this?
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:25 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Exactly. The dike held the water back until a hole appeared, then it was addressed. If the dike had been properly maintained we wouldn't even need the kid to help.

Walls and other barriers work well for many things.

Here is a good article on whether or not walls are effective for border security worldwide. Their results are mixed, but it depends on how you look at it.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...ized-migration

One thing they mention is that border crossings at the US/Mexico border all but stop where there is a new wall/barrier built and guarded.

Another result is that migrants and smugglers move to other areas like Arizona where there is desert and it is much more dangerous to cross, but there is no proper barrier.

People that live in these areas make the same claim - that when a wall or significant barrier goes up they see almost zero illegals crossing their land.

Some areas may be too dangerous for illegals to consider crossing and wouldn't require a barrier.

The people fighting this aren't only against a wall. They are against doing anything. They want them to vote, drive here legally, sanctuary etc. It isn't about the wall. It's mainly about Trump and a little about liberal idealism, I guess.

I don't care how it's done, I want the border as secure as reasonably possible and that is not happening.
If Trump is a right and building "the wall" is supposed to be a good idea then why does he and his ilk have to lie and exaggerate in justifying it? Why constantly bring up false or misleading "facts"?

The reality of the situation is that "build that wall" was just a catchphrase, something that Trump didn't even really believe in or consider important as proved by his private discussions with the Mexican President. Completely lacking in any real and tangible accomplishment of any importance to "his people" (as Trump likes to call them) this is really nothing but pathetic face saving move. He's failed "his people" so much (even-though they probably don't realize it) that he feels he can't back down from this.
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Old 6th January 2019, 05:24 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If Trump is a right and building "the wall" is supposed to be a good idea then why does he and his ilk have to lie and exaggerate in justifying it? Why constantly bring up false or misleading "facts"?

The reality of the situation is that "build that wall" was just a catchphrase, something that Trump didn't even really believe in or consider important as proved by his private discussions with the Mexican President. Completely lacking in any real and tangible accomplishment of any importance to "his people" (as Trump likes to call them) this is really nothing but pathetic face saving move. He's failed "his people" so much (even-though they probably don't realize it) that he feels he can't back down from this.
I agree. If it's such a crisis then why do the majority of Americans not want the wall?

Building The Wall and replacing the ACA were two of his biggest campaign promises. He failed on replacing the ACA and his ego can't take failing with his Wall...er...fence...er whatever, too.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:32 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree. If it's such a crisis then why do the majority of Americans not want the wall?

Building The Wall and replacing the ACA were two of his biggest campaign promises. He failed on replacing the ACA and his ego can't take failing with his Wall...er...fence...er whatever, too.

Imagine how different the situation would be if he had let the whole wall thing fade into obscurity and used his shutdown hammer to intimidate Republican Congresscretins who failed to pass along a workable health care plan with all of the features he promised during his campaign.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:51 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Imagine how different the situation would be if he had let the whole wall thing fade into obscurity and used his shutdown hammer to intimidate Republican Congresscretins who failed to pass along a workable health care plan with all of the features he promised during his campaign.
Yeah, it was going to be so eaaaaaaaasy! You would't believe how easy it was going to be!
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:14 PM   #274
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Lindsay Graham is a contemptible little man.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:50 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Lindsay Graham is a contemptible little man.
Captain Obvious would agree.
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Old 6th January 2019, 10:08 PM   #276
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The key issue isn't the Wall, it's the timing: in the middle of a transition of Congress, and during Christmas Holiday Seasons, it's almost exactly the worst time for a government shutdown of any scale for those affected.
There was absolutely no way to have a proper bill about the Wall drafted, discussed and voted on in a matter of days under these circumstances, but no need to, either.
Agreeing to have a temporary funding until February, and starting negotiations about the content immediately is how things have worked in the past and can work now.
But since Trump has made his bed with owning the Shutdown, and Republicans have decided to side with him rather than common practice and sense, they now have to settle for something, anything that doesn't make them look like they caved completely.
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Old 6th January 2019, 10:31 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Quote:
The best way to stop Illegal migration is to help build up the economies and jobs in the countries those migrants are coming from. If they can get a better and more secure future for themselves and their kids in their own countries than they would have in the US, then they will have less incentive to leave.
I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.
Maybe, but couldn't this be seen as western interference and USA imperialism by spreading unwanted western values (progressive values) and culture (Disney) to countries that don't want it?

I do wonder if the Dems have picked the wrong issue here. It is so easy for Trump to pedal his disinformation and lies regarding the wall in a way that may backfire on the people opposing it. I think they need to chose their battles more carefully.

One of the reasons Trump won was he played to particular base that generally had an unsophisticated view of the world, and he is still riding that train. Why would anyone think that's changed. Of course I am talking politics here, not what's right.
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Old 6th January 2019, 11:01 PM   #278
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Why is no one in the pundit sphere raising this point? The Rs are all fired up about a goddamned Wall as though there's an ongoing invasion of killers swarming across the boarder. But already, Americans are slaughtering each other by gunfire at the rate of at least *TEN* 9/11s *every year*! One would think the far larger cause of casualties would take a higher priority, n'est pas?

I mean, the bloody pearl-clutchers go all apoplectic when *ONE* illegal kills a Yank. Yet they blithely accept the demise of 30,000+ of their fellows each year as being just fine 'cause it's good ol' citizens expressing their God-given right to bear arms.

Tackle the glaring, shameful and more egregious problem of gun deaths that pretty much every civilized country has amply demonstrated the working solution to, then move on to the less calamitous but more intractable issue of illegal immigration.

The complete flipping upside down of priorities, proportion and common sense makes me wanna scream at the idiocy. It's like watching someone fretting over a hangnail while the finger is gangrenous. Come on, America!
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:18 AM   #279
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Quote:
“If he has to give up a concrete wall, replace it with a steel fence in order to do that so that Democrats can say, ‘See? He’s not building a wall anymore,’ that should help us move in the right direction,” Mr. Mulvaney said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “If that’s not evidence of the president’s desire to try and resolve this, I don’t know what is.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/06/u...-shutdown.html

They are really, really, really grasping at straws in order to give the impression that these talks are going anywhere and avoid the impression that Trump is just sitting in his chair pouting with his arms crossed.

Seriously, I've never gotten the impression that anyone's objection has been about the material "the wall" was supposed to be made out of.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 7th January 2019 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:31 AM   #280
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Re-classify the Wall to a free graffiti- art canvas, and he might get a vote or two.
Must be easily accessible from both sides, of course.
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