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Old 6th January 2019, 12:09 AM   #41
TragicMonkey
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It seems strange that the enlightened thing to do is to support the rights of women to participate more fully in an ancient superstition, while discounting part of that superstition: yes, they should be able to go into the temple in honor of a fictional being whom they believe in, but the bit about said fictional being not wanting to see ladies between certain ages, that bit can be dismissed as out-of-date. But only that part, because if you dismiss the rest of the story then there's nothing special about the place and therefore it wouldn't matter that not everybody can go in. I think they should be allowed in, sure, but it's still a weird thing to want to.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:31 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It seems strange that the enlightened thing to do is to support the rights of women to participate more fully in an ancient superstition, while discounting part of that superstition: yes, they should be able to go into the temple in honor of a fictional being whom they believe in, but the bit about said fictional being not wanting to see ladies between certain ages, that bit can be dismissed as out-of-date. But only that part, because if you dismiss the rest of the story then there's nothing special about the place and therefore it wouldn't matter that not everybody can go in. I think they should be allowed in, sure, but it's still a weird thing to want to.
The restriction of women from Hindu temples is the tip of the iceberg of what women in India face. Even when we just consider the issue of menstruation, it's not like they can do anything they want except go in to a temple, for instance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultur...ion#South_Asia
Quote:
In many traditional Hindu homes in India, girls and women face restrictive taboos relative to menstruation, such as being denied entry to the temple and the kitchen.[60] In areas around the Jhabua district, the belief is that "menstruation is a disease and not a normal biological process", and therefore women who are menstruating are not allowed to sleep on beds, enter kitchens, touch male members of their family or eat spicy foods.[61]

In a 2014 study conducted in India, the researchers found that as many as 42% of women who participated in the study did not know about sanitary pads or from where in their anatomy menstruation originated.
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:01 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This thread is not about abortion, don't try to kill it by dragging it down that road.

As for the impact of a shortage of women, your logic makes zero sense. Women don't have any bargaining weight because men need wives. If anything it's the opposite. In the lower classes their families have to pay for husbands for the girls and some are still being killed because the in-laws don't think the dowry was big enough.

Women in India are beginning to assert their rights in many areas. No doubt globalization leads to people all over the world seeing the rights others enjoy and finding like-minded people to join together. In India there have been movements to force the police to arrest rapists and prosecute dowry murderers.

This particular movement is connected to the women forcing their way into a prominent Hindu Temple and some extremists men resisting and rioting. The courts ruled in favor of the women and amazingly the police are actually supporting the move.
Except abortion and its impact on Demographics have played a key role in current Indian gender issues (Decades of sex selective abortions have poured napalm on this matter). Or am I to believe that Russia aborting its way to Demographic collapse from the 90s onwards had no impact on the country?
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:03 AM   #44
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If you have some sort of a thesis here, about the impact of abortion on gender issues, you're going to have to actually spell it out, and preferably support it with some evidence.
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Quote:
In many traditional Hindu homes in India, girls and women face restrictive taboos relative to menstruation, such as being denied entry to the temple and the kitchen.
That's terrible.

You should never deny a woman entry to the kitchen.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If you have some sort of a thesis here, about the impact of abortion on gender issues, you're going to have to actually spell it out, and preferably support it with some evidence.
I'm still trying to figure out what SG's thesis is.
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Old 6th January 2019, 08:20 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
None of this has jack **** to do with the women's protest in India. You might want to start with the actual history of Hindus excluding menstruating women. It's a common them oppressing women in many African ethnic groups as well.
Isn't attacking a minority culture punching down? And playing white hero? And culturally insensitive?

Or are these rules that only others have to follow?
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Old 6th January 2019, 08:22 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It seems strange that the enlightened thing to do is to support the rights of women to participate more fully in an ancient superstition, while discounting part of that superstition: yes, they should be able to go into the temple in honor of a fictional being whom they believe in, but the bit about said fictional being not wanting to see ladies between certain ages, that bit can be dismissed as out-of-date. But only that part, because if you dismiss the rest of the story then there's nothing special about the place and therefore it wouldn't matter that not everybody can go in. I think they should be allowed in, sure, but it's still a weird thing to want to.
Wanting the right to engage in the same idiocy that has been ******* society is what we do on the left now.

How is society going to progress unless we put folks through the same **** they put us through? After all look at how positively is effected us.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Except abortion and its impact on Demographics have played a key role in current Indian gender issues (Decades of sex selective abortions have poured napalm on this matter). Or am I to believe that Russia aborting its way to Demographic collapse from the 90s onwards had no impact on the country?

The imbalance isn't a result of abortion, it is a result of the fact that females are valued less in those cultures.

The availability of abortion only exacerbated an existing widespread and deep-seated cultural misogyny.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:06 PM   #50
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Before abortions were widely available, after all, the girl babies were simply killed, whether by exposure or by pouring boiling water down their throats. Abortion's not your cause here, merely a sooner method of bringing about the effect.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:22 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Before abortions were widely available, after all, the girl babies were simply killed, whether by exposure or by pouring boiling water down their throats. Abortion's not your cause here, merely a sooner method of bringing about the effect.
Except, this is more about the unintended consequences of family planning (Fewer kids + Ingrained Sexism = Less Girls and a skewed gender pyramid). So yeah, abortion would simply be throwing fuel onto the fire.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The imbalance isn't a result of abortion, it is a result of the fact that females are valued less in those cultures.

The availability of abortion only exacerbated an existing widespread and deep-seated cultural misogyny.
Cue obligatory Charles Napier quote:

Quote:
ďBe it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.[To Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of Sati religious funeral practice of burning widows alive on her husbandís funeral pyre.]Ē
― Charles James Napier
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:22 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Isn't attacking a minority culture punching down? And playing white hero? And culturally insensitive?

Or are these rules that only others have to follow?
It's not a minority culture in India where this is taking place - not to mention that country's population outnumbers any western country by a large margin.

And even if it were a minority, there's no rule on the left that intolerance, much less violent oppression, has to be tolerated. Even the most left-wing states don't tolerate FGM in the name of diversity, for instance.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:20 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
And even if it were a minority, there's no rule on the left that intolerance, much less violent oppression, has to be tolerated.
There kind of is, though.
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:20 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Except, this is more about the unintended consequences of family planning (Fewer kids + Ingrained Sexism = Less Girls and a skewed gender pyramid). So yeah, abortion would simply be throwing fuel onto the fire.
No. Abortions are replacing the existing infanticide with feticide. It's not adding anything new.
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Old 6th January 2019, 05:11 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There kind of is, though.
Well, happily that ridiculous ideology hasnít been promoted by anyone here.
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Old 6th January 2019, 05:16 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm still trying to figure out what SG's thesis is.
Iím not sure she has one, only that this story was newsworthy.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There kind of is, though.
There is? As someone who generally leans left I've never been privy to it.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Except abortion and its impact on Demographics have played a key role in current Indian gender issues (Decades of sex selective abortions have poured napalm on this matter). Or am I to believe that Russia aborting its way to Demographic collapse from the 90s onwards had no impact on the country?
You have said this a couple times now but you have yet to explain how you figure other than asserting.... because.

Am I to believe you know much at all about the history of women in India, or in Russia, or anywhere else in the world?
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:25 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Iím not sure she has one, only that this story was newsworthy.
I started with 'the story is newsworthy and asked if CNN was ignoring such a large population of protestors'. That is often the case with CNN, they'll show the riots but not a significantly large peaceful protest.

The women in India believe it is an important right of theirs to enter the temple. I'm not posting to discuss their religious rituals in this thread in particular.

As for all the crap that certain people are trying to ruin the thread with, that is just absolutely bizarre IMO.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:28 PM   #61
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SG,

You said
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This thread is not about abortion, don't try to kill it by dragging it down that road.

As for the impact of a shortage of women, your logic makes zero sense. Women don't have any bargaining weight because men need wives. If anything it's the opposite. In the lower classes their families have to pay for husbands for the girls and some are still being killed because the in-laws don't think the dowry was big enough.

Women in India are beginning to assert their rights in many areas. No doubt globalization leads to people all over the world seeing the rights others enjoy and finding like-minded people to join together. In India there have been movements to force the police to arrest rapists and prosecute dowry murderers.

This particular movement is connected to the women forcing their way into a prominent Hindu Temple and some extremists men resisting and rioting. The courts ruled in favor of the women and amazingly the police are actually supporting the move.
and then when I asked for clarification you maintained that

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Actually yes, it was only men.

Check out the news reports.
and now you wave away rather than simply accept the correction.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh heaven forbid I said males when they are merely predominate but there are a few females in the crowd.

This is about a gender issue. Women are not dirty because they menstruate. And isolating menstruating women is a male dominant move.

You want to discuss it? Let's discuss it. Don't get all snowflakey though about the fact this is about men oppressing women, unlike some of our other debates.
Of course, I am nit-picking in a way. I don't like to see gender relations painted as solely one camp acting in a terrible way (yes, I agree that their policy/beliefs/cultural attitudes are terrible). You could have said "mostly" when I asked for clarification but for some reason you not only claimed it was only men but that the news reports would show this (the one I found contradicted you)
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:44 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
No. Abortions are replacing the existing infanticide with feticide. It's not adding anything new.
Yep.

Also, I think NWO Sentryman has the causal relation backwards. The gender imbalance is a product of misogyny, not a cause of it.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The women in India believe it is an important right of theirs to enter the temple. I'm not posting to discuss their religious rituals in this thread in particular.
Yeah, that idea that "well, Hinduism is just a bunch of non-sense so they shouldn't care that they're not allowed in to the temples anyway" is just... I honestly have no words.
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Old 6th January 2019, 06:54 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
SG,

You said

and then when I asked for clarification you maintained that

and now you wave away rather than simply accept the correction.

Of course, I am nit-picking in a way. I don't like to see gender relations painted as solely one camp acting in a terrible way (yes, I agree that their policy/beliefs/cultural attitudes are terrible). You could have said "mostly" when I asked for clarification but for some reason you not only claimed it was only men but that the news reports would show this (the one I found contradicted you)
At the time I had not seen a single woman in the extremist riot. I have since seen one woman in one photo.

What is your problem with the protesters being gender divided?

The wall of women is not a wall of non-Hindu women. If there were a couple of women oppressing other women that I didn't recognize, gee, sorry I rattled some snowflakes in the thread here.

Why did it bother you in the first place that I said it was extremist men protesting?

Heaven forbid I falsely accuse a group of extremist men of anything.
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Old 6th January 2019, 08:02 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Well, happily that ridiculous ideology hasnít been promoted by anyone here.
It kinda has, though.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:19 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
At the time I had not seen a single woman in the extremist riot. I have since seen one woman in one photo.

What is your problem with the protesters being gender divided?

The wall of women is not a wall of non-Hindu women. If there were a couple of women oppressing other women that I didn't recognize, gee, sorry I rattled some snowflakes in the thread here.

Why did it bother you in the first place that I said it was extremist men protesting?

Heaven forbid I falsely accuse a group of extremist men of anything.
It's not a problem, and I agree at least based on the pictures (but probably also the actual numbers) that it is mostly men protesting.

That said, my problem is with misrepresenting the reality of the culture there. At first I was curious what you meant and then when you said it was "only men" I suspected this was false.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
It's not a problem, and I agree at least based on the pictures (but probably also the actual numbers) that it is mostly men protesting.

That said, my problem is with misrepresenting the reality of the culture there. At first I was curious what you meant and then when you said it was "only men" I suspected this was false.
Misrepresented? Because there are a couple women among thousands of men in the hardline traditionalists Hindus that are rioting over a couple women entering the temple?



In the meantime we have this bull ****:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It kinda has, though.
Apparently this very strong uniting of women against the status quo, whatever the status quo happens to be disturbs a number of males on the forum. How dare I post the thread.

Really?
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:31 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
It's not a problem, and I agree at least based on the pictures (but probably also the actual numbers) that it is mostly men protesting.

That said, my problem is with misrepresenting the reality of the culture there. At first I was curious what you meant and then when you said it was "only men" I suspected this was false.
If it's not a problem, why not discuss it instead of posting annoyance there are a couple women in that group and I addressed men?

I did not misrepresent anyone because I missed one woman in a photo of a mass of men rioting.

If you believe the issue here is, heaven forbid, misrepresenting extremist Hindu men in India, then how about actually gathering some facts? How many hardline women are against the protest of millions of Indian women?
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Old 6th January 2019, 11:24 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It kinda has, though.
If you mean in other threads then sure, but I haven't seen it in this one at all, which seems to be the relevant question.

I mean, I don't see the point of getting upset at people in this thread about a viewpoint that they aren't expressing.

But if you think they have expressed it here all you have to do is quote the post. I am even happy to accept an implicit rather than explicit expression of what you're talking about.

SG certainly isn't tolerant of the intolerance toward women in India. NWO Sentryman certainly doesn't seem to be. Maybe the closest anyone has come to being so is TragicMonkey, but that's not quite how I read his post. Is he the person you were thinking of?
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:04 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or maybe misogyny.
And the dowry system.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:26 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You have said this a couple times now but you have yet to explain how you figure other than asserting.... because.

Am I to believe you know much at all about the history of women in India, or in Russia, or anywhere else in the world?
Zigggurat already explained how demographics play a role in sexism in India and China (less women than men leads to greater social frustration, and when men are an actual majority there is going to be a lot of messiness)

As for Russia, I was told that abortion empowered women and in that case surely women deciding to abort their way to a country's demographic collapse (in a country where abortion Is an immediate first resort mind you) would be the ultimate expression of said empowerment. Except it hasn't turned out that way for women hasn't it?
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Old 7th January 2019, 05:56 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
No. Abortions are replacing the existing infanticide with feticide. It's not adding anything new.
How did you reach that conclusion? I Find that a rather extraordinary claim. Someone willing to murder an infant would almost certainly be willing to abort as well, but youíre basically saying anyone willing to abort is also willing to murder an infant, since abortion only substitutes and does not add. If that is true, the implications are quite remarkable.
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Old 7th January 2019, 03:37 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How did you reach that conclusion? I Find that a rather extraordinary claim. Someone willing to murder an infant would almost certainly be willing to abort as well, but youíre basically saying anyone willing to abort is also willing to murder an infant, since abortion only substitutes and does not add. If that is true, the implications are quite remarkable.
Well, the claim isn't for all abortions, only for those that would have been carried to term except for knowledge that it's female. I agree that you have a point that the subset of those will be smaller than the subset who would also engage in infanticide, though.

How much smaller is hard to say though. In China, at least, it's illegal to give information about the sex of the foetus to prospective parents, so those engaging in sex-selective abortion are already showing some degree of premeditation and special motivation to get that information.
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Old 7th January 2019, 08:52 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't have CNN or MSNBC anymore. Does anyone know if they covered the event?

I wouldn't expect them to, there is no way to make Trump look bad with the story.

Besides, this isn't a serious movement, not enough pink pussy hats or vagina outfits.
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Old 7th January 2019, 08:58 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How did you reach that conclusion? I Find that a rather extraordinary claim. Someone willing to murder an infant would almost certainly be willing to abort as well, but youíre basically saying anyone willing to abort is also willing to murder an infant, since abortion only substitutes and does not add. If that is true, the implications are quite remarkable.
Abortion makes it available to kill the unwanted girl before she's introduced into the world. Where parents would in centuries past have been forced to wait until the child was born to determine if it was the desired boy or the unwanted girl, now they can find out earlier and clear the womb so a boy could take root. You misunderstand precisely *how* unwanted daughters are. A poor family cannot afford the expense a daughter represents.

I feel the dowry as paid from a groom to his bride's parents (or better yet, paid by parents to a new couple (which we do by fancy weddings and presents)) is a far better option, one that doesn't mean every girl comes into the world with a huge debt loaded onto her parents' shoulders. Cultures where daughters take care of aged parents, rather than sons, fare a bit better with the gender imbalance even when they see boys as preferable to girls.
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Old 7th January 2019, 08:58 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Zigggurat already explained how demographics play a role in sexism in India and China (less women than men leads to greater social frustration, and when men are an actual majority there is going to be a lot of messiness)
Clearly that is an unsupportable conclusion. Religious and societal oppression of women in India goes back thousands of years. It has nothing to do with current events.

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
As for Russia, I was told that abortion empowered women and in that case surely women deciding to abort their way to a country's demographic collapse (in a country where abortion Is an immediate first resort mind you) would be the ultimate expression of said empowerment. Except it hasn't turned out that way for women hasn't it?
This is even more bizarre. You were told? That's your supporting evidence? Riiiight.
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Old 8th January 2019, 02:05 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Clearly that is an unsupportable conclusion. Religious and societal oppression of women in India goes back thousands of years. It has nothing to do with current events.
But thisbcurrent iteration is being made worse by unhealthy demographics

Quote:
This is even more bizarre. You were told? That's your supporting evidence? Riiiight.
Hans Rowling has talked at length about how falling birth rates empower women, except by that logic Russia, who's aborted it's way to demographic collapse, should be experiencing a golden age for women
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Old 8th January 2019, 02:11 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
=

Hans Rowling has talked at length about how falling birth rates empower women, except by that logic Russia, who's aborted it's way to demographic collapse, should be experiencing a golden age for women
You are aware that in the real world multiple variables can all have an effect on outcomes, aren't you?
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Old 8th January 2019, 08:00 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Abortion makes it available to kill the unwanted girl before she's introduced into the world. Where parents would in centuries past have been forced to wait until the child was born to determine if it was the desired boy or the unwanted girl, now they can find out earlier and clear the womb so a boy could take root. You misunderstand precisely *how* unwanted daughters are. A poor family cannot afford the expense a daughter represents.
Your argument suggests that there should be no poor girls at all, they should all be dead by now. But that isn't happening. Clearly there's some barrier to killing baby girls, which not all poor parents get past.

We should expect that abortion lowers that barrier, and so should increase the number of girls who are killed. That certainly seems to be the case in the developed world. Now, maybe that's not the case in India (though no one has presented evidence to that effect). But if it isn't, if nobody willing to abort a girl as a fetus wasn't also willing to kill it as a baby, that would be extraordinary. And it would have some rather deep implications. You haven't actually argued that this is the case. Is that really what you believe?
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Old 8th January 2019, 08:04 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Clearly that is an unsupportable conclusion. Religious and societal oppression of women in India goes back thousands of years. It has nothing to do with current events.
You continue to misunderstand the argument. Nobody said current events are the root of misogyny in India. But current events can still exacerbate that old problem. So it makes no sense to say that current events have nothing to do with it, especially since we're talking about current events. Of course current events can affect other current events, even if the events being affected have deep roots.
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