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Tags loose change , part 1 , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 8th March 2006, 09:31 PM   #41
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I found the video interesting, if not particularly well-researched. Most of the 'facts' they've presented I've heard before or heard reasonable explanations of.

The points I'm still curious about:

1) The apparent landing and evacuation of Flight 93 in Cleveland, as reported by WCPO here in Cincinnati the morning of 9/11. It's a curious glitch, and I've never heard anyone address it. (In fact, the general events in Cleveland that morning were most unusual - and largely unexplained)

2) The issue of cell phone usage on Flight 93. I assume that a plane on a suicide descent wouldn't be cruising at 32,000 feet, but it does seem as if a disproportionately large number of cell phones were working - and in a rather vague coverage area? Also, I do think that Mark (Bright?)'s identifying himself to his own mother by his full name to be very strange. Still - people are strange, aren't they?

3) What's the truth about the alleged Osama bin Laden confession tape? Is there anything to the handedness issue, the ring, etc? I can't seem to find much skeptical discussion on this particular issue. Granted, I still think terrorists were responsible for 9/11, but could bin Laden be just a convenient scapegoat?

Personally, I'm trying to remain skeptical on the whole issue. I don't trust any Bush as far as I could throw them, and I certainly think that any fundie Christian with money and power ought to be shot anyway; but to suggest that Bush could have orchestrated something to THIS scale is ludicrous.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past certain people to take advantage of the situation and use this terrorist attack as an excuse to further personal agendas.... I would...

...God, every time I see those planes hit the Towers I still get ill inside.
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Old 8th March 2006, 11:02 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by zaayrdragon View Post
...God, every time I see those planes hit the Towers I still get ill inside.
That's the main reason this whole subject makes me so angry. These conspiracy nuts are taking advantage of that feeling and polluting people's minds for a few cheap jollies. Some of their accusations fall on the very rescue workers who rushed into the buildings that day or the janitors lives who were snuffed out under all that rubble. I just can't sit by and let the memory of that day become tarnished. What government and media have done with that day is sin enough. Of all the things our culture needs to be sober and real about, 9/11 should be first.

This is the worst kind of credulous thinking.
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Old 8th March 2006, 11:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by manny View Post
It's also worth noting that among the passengers and crew who would have been killed or otherwise disappeared to "complete" any fictious story about AA flt 77 doing something other than crashing into the Pentagon was Barbara Olson, the wife of Solicitor General Theodore Olson. Ted argued Bush v. Gore before the Supreme Court. So in order to believe this theory one must suppose that one of the people most responsible for putting the President in office (and a long-time Republican fix-it guy in any event) either a) was left out of the loop on the conspiracy or b) desired to kill his wife, an unbelievably popular political commentator in her own right or c) Barbara Olson is alive and in perma-hiding.
No way. Clearly she knew too much! Christ this crap is easy. No wonder the intellectually lazy are so attracted to it.
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Old 8th March 2006, 11:08 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by JamesDillon View Post
Popular Mechanics ran an article in March 2005 debunking the 9/11 myths, which is available online:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html
You, sir, are my hero. That was awesome!
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Old 8th March 2006, 11:40 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by manny View Post
It's also worth noting that among the passengers and crew who would have been killed or otherwise disappeared to "complete" any fictious story about AA flt 77 doing something other than crashing into the Pentagon was Barbara Olson, the wife of Solicitor General Theodore Olson. Ted argued Bush v. Gore before the Supreme Court. So in order to believe this theory one must suppose that one of the people most responsible for putting the President in office (and a long-time Republican fix-it guy in any event) either a) was left out of the loop on the conspiracy or b) desired to kill his wife, an unbelievably popular political commentator in her own right or c) Barbara Olson is alive and in perma-hiding.
Now you're starting to freak me out, man.
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Old 8th March 2006, 11:48 PM   #46
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In addition to being the product of severely confused people, it's not very engaging a documentary. I almost prefer Michael Moore.
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Old 9th March 2006, 07:28 AM   #47
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I've just watched an excellent series called Inside 9/11 on the NatGeo channel here in Australia. What happened on that infamous date still affects me deeply.

To say that the event was planned and executed by anyone but a tiny enclave of disaffected psychopaths using religion as a shield defies rationality.

2973 people lost their lives because of the actions if these psychopaths.

As Bin Laden was quoted as saying at the end of the documentaries: We love death. the Americans love life. That is the difference between us.

I believe he was wrong on both counts. He would have made a good propagandist in Nazi Germany.

There is an answer to this horrible, terrifying stand-off, but I'm afraid that we in the West would never countenance it.

So the carnage will continue indefinitely.

M.
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Old 9th March 2006, 10:07 AM   #48
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Thanks for those links. I had figured we weren't being shown anything in that film that would allow an objective conclusion.
I must say however, that the video of Bin Laden doesn't look like him to me either. I thought that immediately. This doesn't mean I think it's all a conspiracy though, Saddam had doubles didn't he? If I was in that position I'd try to find several.
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Old 10th March 2006, 10:30 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Moochie View Post
There is an answer to this horrible, terrifying stand-off, but I'm afraid that we in the West would never countenance it.
Care to elaborate?
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Old 10th March 2006, 10:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
Control, oddly enough.

Think about, lightning was much "scarier" before we understood what caused it. It still has the exact same properties, but because we know the causes, it loses some of its ability to cause fear.

Same with other pehenomena. The "conspiracy" angle removes the accidental/random/unpredictable elements from the event (the buildings didn't fall unforeseen, they were intended to fall!). So that's one aspect, I think.
Rather like how people invented gods that controlled thunder and lightning -- gods are essentially just very powerful people, and even a capricious and cruel person is at least familiar, and therefore comfortable.
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Old 11th March 2006, 03:38 PM   #51
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thank you very much for sharing this, I spent 1 hour and 20 minutes watching this whole video, it made me feel many different ways, it made me feel angry at the american goverment for a thing such as this to happen. But is also mad me feel compelled to show this to other people, the government has to lie and cover up everything.

At least there are some smart people in the world.
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Old 11th March 2006, 04:56 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by blue_eastcoast View Post
thank you very much for sharing this, I spent 1 hour and 20 minutes watching this whole video, it made me feel many different ways, it made me feel angry at the american goverment for a thing such as this to happen. But is also mad me feel compelled to show this to other people, the government has to lie and cover up everything.

At least there are some smart people in the world.
Ummm... You might want to read through this thread...
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Old 11th March 2006, 05:12 PM   #53
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Whilst I don't believe there is a conspiracy there are some things about the Pentagon attack that seem odd.CCTV showed no plane approaching,the few frames that get shown over and again at least.CCTV film was taken from the nearby hotel and never returned nor disclosed,the damage seems to be from the inside out,yet there's a hole in the front wall,with little damage to the grass.
The terrorists leaving neat little clues in the cars found at whichever airport it was-Denver?-including flight manuals!! The passport found a few blocks away from the Twin Towers site intact enough to identify Mohammed Atta.Lastly havent some of the named terrorists supposedly on the flight been proved to be alive?
Ok so this is from memory and not evidence,and as stated I dont believe in conspiracies.
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Old 11th March 2006, 06:46 PM   #54
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There are, on the surface, oddities in any situation. What I think is happening here, is the data we're receiving is obviously filtered. Not because of some conspiracy or something, but from the usual, general incompetence of the people responsible. Let's be frank - most people are mind-numbingly stupid. This includes our government. My guess is the videotapes showing the plane smashing into the Pentagon are sitting in someone's car, forgotten, or on the back of a desk under a large stack of paperwork; or erased, purely by stupid accident. The 'suspected terrorists' are all listed off of old lists of possible suspects, probably - most of them sorely out-of-date, and probably built on hearsay and speculation that is unfounded at best. The people who compiled those lists - also idiots, most likely.

The evidence that seems odd - like the hole seemingly blown from inside out - we ought to consider that we aren't experts in these fields, and haven't personally seen the damage. We've seen pictures and had other people tell us what we're seeing - usually conspiracy theorists, basically.

As for oddball things, like a terrorist's passport blowing down the street or flight manuals in cars... Sure, it's odd. But I would expect a lot of material would be left behind in the cars of these suicide bombers for some very simple reasons. First, probably brushing up at the last minute in the cars. Second, not wanting to be questioned by security (weren't most of these guys non-Citizens? A bunch of Middle-Easterners carrying flight manuals would have looked a bit suspicious). Third - it's not like they'll miss the manuals - they're planning on dying, after all.

The passport does sound unfailingly suspicious to me, though - and I wouldn't put it past our government to plant small bits of evidence to reinforce our anti-Afghanistan feelings and support all-out war. But at the same time, weirder things have happened. It's just 'one of those things'.

Without more info, it's really foolish of us to start crying 'conspiracy'.

Still, I'd like to know more about the cell phone usage on Flight 93...
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Old 11th March 2006, 07:15 PM   #55
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I doubt "Let's Roll" happened actually.Sounds to American gung ho for my liking.When these terrorists apparently cut the throat of a air hostess on the Twin Tower flights,I can't see a few "jocks" being much of a problem.It's not like the terrorists were expecting an easy job.
While I accept(and I too would also)they wanted to say goodbye to their families,why did no-one on the other flights make calls? Why did the terrorists allow them to make calls,alerting people to their plans?
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Old 11th March 2006, 09:44 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
I doubt "Let's Roll" happened actually.Sounds to American gung ho for my liking.When these terrorists apparently cut the throat of a air hostess on the Twin Tower flights,I can't see a few "jocks" being much of a problem.It's not like the terrorists were expecting an easy job.
While I accept(and I too would also)they wanted to say goodbye to their families,why did no-one on the other flights make calls? Why did the terrorists allow them to make calls,alerting people to their plans?
People on the other flights did make calls, but to that point, no one knew that the planes were to be used as weapons.

As for the terrorists allowing them, do you think four guys with knives can control every action on the plane?

But do feel free to join the conspiracy nutters and s*** on the memory of those who had a chance to fight back.
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Old 11th March 2006, 09:50 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by zaayrdragon View Post
TThe passport does sound unfailingly suspicious to me, though - and I wouldn't put it past our government to plant small bits of evidence to reinforce our anti-Afghanistan feelings and support all-out war. But at the same time, weirder things have happened. It's just 'one of those things'.
Truth is, the passport was never a big piece of evidence. It get attention far out of porportion to its value simply because all the Ct'ers are jumping up and down and pointing at it while screaming "Not possible! Not POSSIBLE! ITS A PLANT!!!". Looking at the reports from the gov't the passport is scarcely mentioned, and the FBI seemed to think little of it as evidence of who the hijackers were.
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Old 11th March 2006, 10:07 PM   #58
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It is interesting to see how wrong your intuition can be about something like this. Looking at the Pentagon pictures Luke posted, I must admit I do find it hard to believe there is an aircraft in there.
I find myself thinking- well if that's an engine in the red box, where is the wing it should be attached to? Surely there ought to be at least part of the wing visible outside the building?
I also would expect, given the density of tourists in Washington DC and the ubiquity of cameras, to see at least one video of the impact actually happening. Is it this, compared with the many videos of the WTT, that permits us to ignore the eye witness testimony of those who actually saw the aircraft?

Like many of those who have misinterpreted the NASA lunar photos, I am simply unable to assess the scale and nature of the damage. How big are those windows in the Pentagon? What width are the ground floor gaps between pillars in the (foam covered) photo? Could a plane get through there? (Or whatever is left of a plane hitting a solid building at that speed?)
The fact that this building is vastly tougher than we would expect makes the photos seem even odder. It is not the damage that surprises, but the comparative lack of it.

I note on the USA Today animation, the aircraft as it approaches the building seems much wider than the hole in the photo. It would be interesting to see an accurate superimposition of a 757 on the photo.

It's interesting. Something dreadful happens. Lots of people see it happen. Yet when one person asks if it's a government conspiracy, we all start to doubt . If only the public were as sceptical of half of the real bs out there.
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Old 11th March 2006, 10:08 PM   #59
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Ten or twelve years ago I worked with a guy who was a John Birch Society member. He lent me a conspiracy theory video called Waco: The Big Lie (which you can read about here). It was so slipshod and full of specious arguments that I remember feeling distinctly embarassed for my coworker. That a grown man could believe this sort of hogwash was a disturbing revelation to me.
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Old 11th March 2006, 10:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Angus McPresley View Post
Ten or twelve years ago I worked with a guy who was a John Birch Society member. He lent me a conspiracy theory video called Waco: The Big Lie (which you can read about here). It was so slipshod and full of specious arguments that I remember feeling distinctly embarassed for my coworker. That a grown man could believe this sort of hogwash was a disturbing revelation to me.
When I was 15, I went to a John Birch Society camp. Those people all need years of psychotherapy. And medicine. Lots of medicine.
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Old 12th March 2006, 02:02 AM   #61
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The CIA is clearly capable of a coverup like the one outlined in Loose Change:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/...NlYwN5bmNhdA--

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Old 12th March 2006, 07:01 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
People on the other flights did make calls, but to that point, no one knew that the planes were to be used as weapons.

As for the terrorists allowing them, do you think four guys with knives can control every action on the plane?

But do feel free to join the conspiracy nutters and s*** on the memory of those who had a chance to fight back.

It's not (in my mind) that the other flights didn't have calls (they did); it's how the heck cell phones worked. The only thing I think we're missing in this particular equation is the actual altitude of the planes during the calls.

Yes, at that point in time, most cell phones couldn't get good coverage at 32,000 ft... but these were planes descending rapidly to hit ground targets; ergo, at the time the calls were being made, chances are the planes were MUCH lower and closer to workable range for cell phones. That's my guess, anyway.

I still don't have a cell phone, so I'm pretty much clueless on how they operate...
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Old 12th March 2006, 07:55 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by zaayrdragon View Post
It's not (in my mind) that the other flights didn't have calls (they did); it's how the heck cell phones worked. The only thing I think we're missing in this particular equation is the actual altitude of the planes during the calls.

Yes, at that point in time, most cell phones couldn't get good coverage at 32,000 ft... but these were planes descending rapidly to hit ground targets; ergo, at the time the calls were being made, chances are the planes were MUCH lower and closer to workable range for cell phones. That's my guess, anyway.

I still don't have a cell phone, so I'm pretty much clueless on how they operate...
Keep in mind that the airplane phones do work, and they are often right in front of the middle seat.

Cell phones not working? I've seen arguements from both sides, the CTers point to a study saying it would not work, but I hear pilots saying that they do, and people have been arrested for using their cell phone on planes. I tend to side with the pilots on this one.

The problem is that you jump from transmitter to transmitter. Making a mess.
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Old 12th March 2006, 11:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Keep in mind that the airplane phones do work, and they are often right in front of the middle seat.

Cell phones not working? I've seen arguements from both sides, the CTers point to a study saying it would not work, but I hear pilots saying that they do, and people have been arrested for using their cell phone on planes. I tend to side with the pilots on this one.

The problem is that you jump from transmitter to transmitter. Making a mess.
Yeah. The recent implementation of cell phone nodes on planes is really to help stabilize the transmission, and to keep the cell phones from interfering with avionics too badly, IIRC.
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Old 12th March 2006, 01:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by blue_eastcoast View Post
it made me feel many different ways, it made me feel angry at the american goverment for a thing such as this to happen.
So you're going to accuse the faceless "american government" of murdering thousands of people with no evidence? You are a very unethical and cowardly person.

Originally Posted by blue_eastcoast View Post
But is also mad me feel compelled to show this to other people, the government has to lie and cover up everything.
You're angry about imaginary government lies, yet you're going to spread the lies in this video around without critically evaluating them? The links in this thread thoroughly debunk the deceit you've swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

Originally Posted by blue_eastcoast View Post
At least there are some smart people in the world.
Clearly I am not speaking to one of them now. Stop imagining you're stuck in the middle of a Dan Brown novel and THINK!
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Old 12th March 2006, 01:28 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by delphi_ote View Post
When I was 15, I went to a John Birch Society camp. Those people all need years of psychotherapy. And medicine. Lots of medicine.
Hee. I had a Bircher as a teacher in high school back in the 80s. He used to give us some rather amusing handouts. I wish I would have saved them.
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Old 12th March 2006, 01:31 PM   #67
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A while ago - just about the time I first started visiting here - I was first exposed to the 'Lunar Landing hoax' theory. I was honestly taken in by it, and confused as hell about the apparent evidence that we had faked a moon landing. But after just a few days, I had encountered all the rebuttals, and learned that people are idiots.

This time, I watched the movie (in full), made a few notes, and went off to do the research. The rebuttals aren't quite as compelling as with the Lunar stuff, but they're there, and the case against a conspiracy is strong.

Unfortunately, some folks live in a world where the Masons are secretly controlling the world, alien cultures are actively trading secrets with the government, and Elvis is alive and well, sipping Mai Tai's with Hitler in Palm Springs. How those folks make it through the day, I'll never know.
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Old 12th March 2006, 02:23 PM   #68
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I don't understand how people can say that the collapse of the South Tower (the first to collapse) looks like a controlled demolition. Any demolition crew that allowed a collapse like that would get sued.

The South Tower did not collapse straight down. There are many video clips showing how the tower buckled at one side, with the top part of the tower tipping over to one side. Also, the tower buckles at the exact point of the impact of the plane. Was the pilot really that skilled as to be able to pilot the plane to the exact point where the explosives were placed?

See the video in the link for a closeup of the South Tower collapse. Seems pretty clear to me as to what happened.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...d+trade+center
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Old 13th March 2006, 04:04 AM   #69
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I'm not completely satisfied with the official version of 911, but some of the theories out there are completely nuts, I'm surprised nobody's blamed aliens yet.
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Old 13th March 2006, 04:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Godmode View Post
I'm not completely satisfied with the official version of 911, but some of the theories out there are completely nuts, I'm surprised nobody's blamed aliens yet.
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/.../m14-005.shtml
http://www.greatdreams.com/political/911-411.htm
http://www.gallerize.com/039%209-11%...20QUESTION.htm

...for starters...
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Old 13th March 2006, 06:00 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Oh my.
I stand corrected.
Once again I have over-estimated the human race.
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Old 13th March 2006, 07:22 AM   #72
Curnir
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Originally Posted by Godmode View Post
Oh my.
I stand corrected.
Once again I have over-estimated the human race.
Yupp it's when I read stuff like that, that I'm sorely tempted to put 'Operation: Remove all warning lables' into play.
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Old 13th March 2006, 08:47 AM   #73
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by Curnir View Post
Yupp it's when I read stuff like that, that I'm sorely tempted to put 'Operation: Remove all warning lables' into play.
Start an Urban Legend on the net about how Masons control the world because they drink bleach.
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Old 14th March 2006, 12:39 AM   #74
Orphia Nay
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If anyone is up for a debate with a CTer about the 'Loose Change' video, please visit and join the forum at:

http://www.in-the-gap.com/morgana/index.php

I've got sucked into a discussion, but to be honest, I don't give a damn whether I correct this guy's (he's called 'CyberChrist' ffs!) misconceptions or not. I've tried it with other nutters, and they will use any tactic bar logic to defend their stance. Still, it's fun to wind them up.

The actual thread is in the Political forum.
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Old 15th March 2006, 06:14 AM   #75
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Unfortunately these CT documentaries are starting to getting well spread at P2P forums. I'm about to have a discussion at an spanish forum with a guy about 'Loose Change 2nd Edition'. Has anyone watched that 2nd edition? Is it much different than 'Loose Change'? any info would be appreciated.
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Old 15th March 2006, 01:38 PM   #76
Alek
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Originally Posted by delphi_ote View Post
I had a conversation with one of my room mates about this movie last night. I think I disabused him of believing in the movie, but he still seems stuck on the free fall idea. Does anyone have one really good link debunking that myth? Something a realtor would understand?
Try this link:

janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html
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Old 15th March 2006, 02:27 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
I haven't watched it. Is it that Alex Jones video? I had a guy trying to convince me to watch some Alex Jones video, but at the time I flat out refused because of some of the blatantly specious stuff he was quoting from it.

I guess I'll have to watch it now that it's all over Google video so I can tear it apart next time someone tells me I just have to see this thing.
Just parrot someone else who has actually watched the film and decided to debunk it. What difference would it make, given that you've absolutely no pretense of objectivity? But then, "skeptics" don't need objectivity, they just need copious amounts of doubt, right?

I find it rather unlikely that you or several others in this thread are anything but selective skeptics. Perhaps if you applied the same degree of skepticism towards the 9/11 Commission's official conspiracy theory as you do to bigfoot sightings, spooky ghost stories, and psychics, then you may discover that their story doesn't quite add up.
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Old 15th March 2006, 02:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Alek View Post
Just parrot someone else who has actually watched the film and decided to debunk it. What difference would it make, given that you've absolutely no pretense of objectivity? But then, "skeptics" don't need objectivity, they just need copious amounts of doubt, right?

I find it rather unlikely that you or several others in this thread are anything but selective skeptics. Perhaps if you applied the same degree of skepticism towards the 9/11 Commission's official conspiracy theory as you do to bigfoot sightings, spooky ghost stories, and psychics, then you may discover that their story doesn't quite add up.
In what specifics do you say the official theory does not add up?
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Old 15th March 2006, 02:39 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
*sigh*

Did anything like this happen with Pearl Harbor? I know there were a few theories, but mostly it seems to be only one or two little factoids left now. I dunno, though. I'm not real good with history. I wonder if there's a parallel between 9/11 and Pearl Harbor in the development of conspiracy theories.

If so, then the relatively uncommon nature of Pearl Harbor CTs today could be taken as a good sign that this too will fade
There is a book entitled "Day of Deceit" written by Robert Stinnett. Stinnett proffers evidence that FDR had prior knowledge of the attack and let it happen so as to create a public pretense for US involvement in WW2.

I haven't read the book, but given the Hegelian dialectic and its historical employment plus Roosevelt's status as a traitor, I have little doubt it is true.
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Old 15th March 2006, 02:40 PM   #80
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Good afternoon Alek and welcome.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
Just parrot someone else who has actually watched the film and decided to debunk it. What difference would it make, given that you've absolutely no pretense of objectivity? But then, "skeptics" don't need objectivity, they just need copious amounts of doubt, right?

I find it rather unlikely that you or several others in this thread are anything but selective skeptics. Perhaps if you applied the same degree of skepticism towards the 9/11 Commission's official conspiracy theory as you do to bigfoot sightings, spooky ghost stories, and psychics, then you may discover that their story doesn't quite add up.
Interesting viewpoint. Exactly what leads you to your conclusions?

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