Trump's Coup d'état. - Page 8

thaiboxerken · 15th November 2020, 08:43 AM

It appears that Trump was trying to find support for an attempt at a Coup. I'm happy that he did not find that support. I think it's because he's a LOSER! LOL. Loser Trump. Donald Lame Duck.

alfaniner · 15th November 2020, 09:07 AM

Cain · 15th November 2020, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

That may be, but do you think that's because he's the president?

ETA: I mean, eventually he may be indistinguishable from someone's crazy screaming uncle.

Of course it's because he's the president. His words will have less meaning when he's given the boot, but he will always be a former president. The press reported Bush's unremarkable comments about Biden's victory because his words still carry weight. They're newsworthy. This is more so the case for Trump, who is poised to "lead" a movement (yes, it's actually just a self-glorifcation project).

Cavemonster · 15th November 2020, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

Of course it's because he's the president. His words will have less meaning when he's given the boot, but he will always be a former president. The press reported Bush's unremarkable comments about Biden's victory because his words still carry weight. They're newsworthy. This is more so the case for Trump, who is poised to "lead" a movement (yes, it's actually just a self-glorifcation project).

Being a former president does garner some attention, but if George W had a twitter account (does he? I don't even know) it certainly wouldn't have near the traffic of Trump's. If George W. had one and broke all their rules, I doubt they would give him a pass because of his former preisdent status and the traffic that drives.

There's no shortage of celebrities on Twitter and they've been happy to permanently suspend a fair amount of them. Trump may retain a celebrity status out of office, but I'd be surprised if a year out he still commanded anything in the vicinity of his current traffic.

They've had no problem banning Steve Bannon, David Icke, David Duke and many others with significant followings.

I suspect that, regardless of what Trump tries to do out of office, most of the party will move on to a new figurehead. He may keep a loyal core, but if he stays out of prison, I suspect he''l be slightly more popular that Sarah Palin within four years. That wouldn't make him too much of a cash cow.

Vixen · 16th November 2020, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

<snip>

That wouldn't make him too much of a cash cow.

More Golden Goose, surely. Boston Matrix will have to add 'Golden Goose' to their labelling. More useless business jargon meaning: 'Ousted CEO who tweets in his spare time, 'I WON!'

Investment advice: 'Steer clear of this one and invest in the new one. Remember, the Golden Goose ended up badly.'

cosmicaug · 16th November 2020, 06:04 AM

Relevant article in which they talk to Larry Lessig:
https://www.dailyposter.com/p/how-pence-and-gop-senators-could

The Don · 16th November 2020, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Relevant article in which they talk to Larry Lessig:
https://www.dailyposter.com/p/how-pence-and-gop-senators-could

Very concerning.

It ain't over 'til it's over.

GOP senators have shown that they're willing to do whatever they can to keep President Trump in post.

cosmicaug · 16th November 2020, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Very concerning.

It ain't over 'til it's over.

GOP senators have shown that they're willing to do whatever they can to keep President Trump in post.

Yes. As I have indicated here, I am not reassured by "it's against the rules" or by the fact that various state level Republican politicians have said they will not do that. Clearly, people say one thing & do another all the time and laws and conventions only work if they are enforced (and statements made by politicians are subject to revision at a later time).

I still think that we are not heading that way (if nothing else, the demented Rudy Giuliani being in charge of the legal effort is very reassuring

). I think 5.5 million votes and the 306 Electoral College result might make the difference. However, I also think the same politicians and a 3 million popular vote difference with a smaller (but clear) Electoral College difference might be more amenable to the subversion of the electorate by these folk.

It is extremely troubling, in any case, that US House & Senate Republicans are playing this for advantage. These are politicians who are showing themselves willing to subvert the electorate. Potentially, only the state level politicians are preventing this from actually executing (in the meantime the US legislative level Republicans are egging on extremists).

AnonyMoose · 16th November 2020, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Relevant article in which they talk to Larry Lessig:
https://www.dailyposter.com/p/how-pence-and-gop-senators-could

Damn, that's a scary read.

What are the odds that enough of the GOP will jump on board with this?

dudalb · 16th November 2020, 12:53 PM

If they do, they will start a second civil war.

Skeptic Ginger · 16th November 2020, 01:07 PM

Those Senators can support Trump all they want to, it doesn't change the fact there is no power behind the curtains. The military is not backing this imaginary coup.

ponderingturtle · 16th November 2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Those Senators can support Trump all they want to, it doesn't change the fact there is no power behind the curtains. The military is not backing this imaginary coup.

But will it overthrow congress if the senate does that? Will the military install Biden if the political mechanism don't?

The Great Zaganza · 16th November 2020, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But will it overthrow congress if the senate does that? Will the military install Biden if the political mechanism don't?

All they have to do is for the Aide carrying the nuclear football to not show up one morning at the White House an instead start hanging out with Biden.
I'm pretty sure even the Republicans will get the message.

dirtywick · 16th November 2020, 02:40 PM

many republicans have signaled they recognize a biden victory even as they placate Trump's delicate feelings

Skeptic Ginger · 16th November 2020, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But will it overthrow congress if the senate does that? Will the military install Biden if the political mechanism don't?

Is this a joke?

I don't get it.

d4m10n · 16th November 2020, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Is this a joke?

I don't get it.

Did you read the Lessig interview linked above?

Skeptic Ginger · 17th November 2020, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Did you read the Lessig interview linked above?

Quote:

The unlikely-but-possible scenario revolves around the prospect of competing slates of electors

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this.

It would seem the fear mongering is still selling the news.

The Don · 17th November 2020, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this.

It would seem the fear mongering is still selling the news.

If Republican leaders came out and said that Joe Biden is the President elect then there'd be much less traction for this kind of thing. Instead we have them supporting President Trump, echoing his "every legal vote", supporting his lawsuits and making reference to a second Trump term.

People would be more sanguine about an orderly transfer of power if the GOP seemed at all interested in it. Instead they seem to be doing everything they can to obstruct and frustrate. At the moment it's "just" not allowing the release of funds for the transition and not allowing Joe Biden access to security briefings - in part because the US public aren't making a big deal out of it.

If they (they in this case being both the national Republican leadership and the state leaders in those states) think that the blowback will be worth it, then why not take these entirely legal steps ?

edited to add......

We've heard it so many times in recent years, "They won't/can't do that". Whether it's refusing even to consider a SCOTUS nominee and then forcing through another in similar circumstances, the myriad cases of President Trump behaving in ways which would have bene previously unthinkable or embracing groups who would otherwise be anathema to the party, the GOP is breaking new ground all the time.

ponderingturtle · 17th November 2020, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Is this a joke?

I don't get it.

You said they would not install Trump but in the event that the coup language moves up to actual coup, would they stand against it or stand asside?

Right now we have the situation where they seem to be laying the ground work for a coup that they seem to be not serious about, but there is no internal blowback from the laying the groundwork for a coup.

Mader Levap · 17th November 2020, 04:15 AM

History repeats itself. No one took seriously Hitler or Stalin at beginning too.

d4m10n · 17th November 2020, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this.

Trust their word if you like; I'm old enough to remember when Republican legislators emphatically insisted they would never push a SCOTUS pick through during an election.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th November 2020, 05:45 AM

Trump's meritless legal challenges seem to be going down the toilet, and there seems to be very little chance that even our partisan SCOTUS is going to give Trump the relief he demands here.

These legal moonshots aside, that just leaves the more naked power grab options. Eyes on the states with Republican controlled legislatures that Biden won to see if they will refuse to certify the electors. Any such move will have little to do with legality and more to do with the naked use of power by a minoritarian government intent on retaining control.

It should be clear that any such move is the open abandonment of any meaningful Democratic process and the only effective way to counter a coup is widespread public unrest.

d4m10n · 17th November 2020, 05:49 AM

Timeline for certification in PA: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...eline/2592719/

turingtest · 17th November 2020, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

If Republican leaders came out and said that Joe Biden is the President elect then there'd be much less traction for this kind of thing. Instead we have them supporting President Trump, echoing his "every legal vote", supporting his lawsuits and making reference to a second Trump term.

People would be more sanguine about an orderly transfer of power if the GOP seemed at all interested in it. Instead they seem to be doing everything they can to obstruct and frustrate. At the moment it's "just" not allowing the release of funds for the transition and not allowing Joe Biden access to security briefings - in part because the US public aren't making a big deal out of it.

If they (they in this case being both the national Republican leadership and the state leaders in those states) think that the blowback will be worth it, then why not take these entirely legal steps ?

edited to add......

We've heard it so many times in recent years, "They won't/can't do that". Whether it's refusing even to consider a SCOTUS nominee and then forcing through another in similar circumstances, the myriad cases of President Trump behaving in ways which would have bene previously unthinkable or embracing groups who would otherwise be anathema to the party, the GOP is breaking new ground all the time.

A few GOP leaders have begun to make some cautious noises indicating acceptance of Biden's win- Rubio referred to Biden as President-elect, for one. (The Hill article via MSN) Senator Risch from Idaho came up with an analogy for the transition that kind of struck me-

Quote:

"This is my second transition where we move from one political party to another in the White House," he said Friday, describing the incoming administration as having "an entirely different feeling or dynamic."

"It is a change in the music that is playing in the background. We go from heavy metal to classical music in one fell swoop," he added.

(Donald Trump as heavy metal- and not the heavy metal I grew up with, more the cacophonous mess with one-note sludge on guitars and guttural growls passing for vocals that seems so popular these days, and you kids get offa my damn lawn!)

But I think the game going forward will be to paint Biden's Presidency as somehow tainted by the allegations of fraud that they themselves, as a party, are responsible for. It'll become a self-feeding and self-serving narrative- Biden narrowly won- and never mind that his EC count will be the same as the one Trump claimed as a landslide, and his popular vote margin probably close to six million. That specious taint will let them pose piously, when they block his SC nominations or policy initiatives, as the folks who, after all, kept a Senate majority and increased their House share.* This was the rationale they used to block Obama's SC pick in 2016 and to ram through their own this year, and there was never any controversy about Obama's election; imagine what they will do with Biden when they can paint his election as somewhat questionable.

*They've claimed to be the "voice of the American people" through their Senate majority; to me, that particular voice is a deliberately fragmented one, Americans speaking as New Yorkers or Texans, Floridians or Californians, each speaking for its own interests and only superficially resembling a chorus carrying a common tune. It's true enough that the popular vote isn't what elects presidents; but I think it's only fair to remind Republicans who claim to speak with an "American voice" that, when Americans have actually spoken as a whole to elect a representative common to them all, only once in 32 years has the GOP managed a win- Bush in 2004, and that was with a margin that was only about half of what Biden has so far.

cosmicaug · 17th November 2020, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this.

Indeed. We should all just be thankful that it will be Biden who gets to replace the SCOTUS vacancy left behind when Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg died*.

* Because we obviously must have a vacancy since Mitch McConnell said he would not consider a SCOTUS Justice nomination vote close to a presidential election.

angrysoba · 17th November 2020, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this.

It would seem the fear mongering is still selling the news.

"Guys relax, it's just an *attempted* coup."

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...105016832?s=20

Cavemonster · 17th November 2020, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Indeed. We should all just be thankful that it will be Biden who gets to replace the SCOTUS vacancy left behind when Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg died*.

* Because we obviously must have a vacancy since Mitch McConnell said he would not consider a SCOTUS Justice nomination vote close to a presidential election.

And even if Mitch HAD somehow gone back on his word, he wouldn't have had the votes to confirm. Because senators like Lindsey Graham said explicitly:

Quote:

I want you to use my words against me. If there’s a Republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say Lindsey Graham said let’s let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination.

So seriously, people who try to tell me not to worry because republican politicians promised they'd do the right thing can bite my ass.

cosmicaug · 17th November 2020, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

And even if Mitch HAD somehow gone back on his word, he wouldn't have had the votes to confirm. Because senators like Lindsey Graham said explicitly:

So seriously, people who try to tell me not to worry because republican politicians promised they'd do the right thing can bite my ass.

Yeah, that was supposed to be Lindsay Graham in my post (why do I get those two confused?). also, Lindsay Graham would seem to be perfectly fine with engaging in electoral interference despite not being a thing that one would think to be legal.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

"Guys relax, it's just an *attempted* coup."

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...105016832?s=20

Again, they are all waiting to see if enough on their side do the thing before they themselves do the thing. They are not doing the thing only because they are not yet sure. What they said they would do is not a part of the heuristic that they are applying.

Trebuchet · 17th November 2020, 10:48 AM

Graham has explained his call to the Georgia SOS.
He was Just Asking Questions.

Thermal · 17th November 2020, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Graham has explained his call to the Georgia SOS.
He was Just Asking Questions.

"Would you mind undermining the very foundation of a free society and skull **** our voting process? Just checking"

SuburbanTurkey · 17th November 2020, 11:14 AM

This is pretty grim. While I don't see the partisan SCOTUS overturning a state election result, I can easily imagine them cooking up some BS pretext for why it wouldn't be proper to intervene if some state official was throwing out ballots en masse.

They could easily paint abdication of duty as judicial conservatism, even if it was clear that constitutional voting rights were being violated through deliberately ham-fisted "voting fraud" purges that resulted in hundreds of thousands of legitimate ballots getting trashed.

While taking an active part in a soft coup might be beyond the pale, adopting a "there's just nothing we can do" attitude in light of an obvious power grab is much more palatable.

Horatius · 17th November 2020, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

"Would you mind undermining the very foundation of a free society and skull **** our voting process? Just checking"

"See, if he'd have said "YES!", I'd have called the cops on him! It was a sting operation!"

Dave Rogers · 17th November 2020, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

They could easily paint abdication of duty as judicial conservatism, even if it was clear that constitutional voting rights were being violated through deliberately ham-fisted "voting fraud" purges that resulted in hundreds of thousands of legitimate ballots getting trashed.

Or, as the Republican Party calls it, 'Tuesday'.

Dave

The Great Zaganza · 17th November 2020, 12:09 PM

It's the GOP motto: as long as we don't actually manage to destroy the US, what's the harm in trying really hard?

thaiboxerken · 17th November 2020, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

It's the GOP motto: as long as we don't actually manage to destroy the US, what's the harm in trying really hard?

There is no attempted murder, only murder!

They have made this kind of insinuation several times, particularly when some of their guys get caught molesting women.

Dr. Keith · 17th November 2020, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

There is no attempted murder, only murder!

They have made this kind of insinuation several times, particularly when some of their guys get caught molesting women.

Donnie never got his Noble for Attempted Diplomacy!

Athyrio · 17th November 2020, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

His Twitter account may be scrubbed but my understanding is that the Tweets have to be archived (whether by Twitter or not, I don't know) as Official Presidential Communications. I have to wonder if all the comments are required to be saved also.

Guess someone will print out and bind those tweets and donate it to his future library.

bonzombiekitty · 17th November 2020, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

There is no attempted murder, only murder!

Pffft. attempted murder. What is that? Do they give the nobel prize for attempted chemistry?

alfaniner · 17th November 2020, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Athyrio

Guess someone will print out and bind those tweets and donate it to his future library.

Now those would genuinely fill several albums. Not even counting the comments.

Skeptic Ginger · 17th November 2020, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

If Republican leaders came out and said that Joe Biden is the President elect then there'd be much less traction for this kind of thing. Instead we have them supporting President Trump, echoing his "every legal vote", supporting his lawsuits and making reference to a second Trump term.

Some of them. Others have spoken in private and others have spoken publicly. Trump's welcome is wearing thin.

Originally Posted by The Don

... If they (they in this case being both the national Republican leadership and the state leaders in those states) think that the blowback will be worth it, then why not take these entirely legal steps?

What steps are you referring to?

Originally Posted by The Don

..... We've heard it so many times in recent years, "They won't/can't do that". Whether it's refusing even to consider a SCOTUS nominee and then forcing through another in similar circumstances, the myriad cases of President Trump behaving in ways which would have bene previously unthinkable or embracing groups who would otherwise be anathema to the party, the GOP is breaking new ground all the time.

This is the hypothetical. Match it to the evidence.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

You said they would not install Trump but in the event that the coup language moves up to actual coup, would they stand against it or stand asside?

Right now we have the situation where they seem to be laying the ground work for a coup that they seem to be not serious about, but there is no internal blowback from the laying the groundwork for a coup.

Who is laying what groundwork?

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

History repeats itself. No one took seriously Hitler or Stalin at beginning too.

Hitler and Stalin were power hungry dictators. Trump is a pathological narcissist who only cares about himself. Have you seen him take any steps in the last 4 years to consolidate is power?

No. He fires anyone who disagrees or who he thinks makes him look bad. Instead of ending up with a core of strong minions who are loyal to him, Trump fills their seats with people who are less and less qualified. He's down to Giuliani for Pete's sake as his top lawyer.

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Trust their word if you like; I'm old enough to remember when Republican legislators emphatically insisted they would never push a SCOTUS pick through during an election.

You continue to conflate state and federal legislators. And with COVID raging in a lot of GOP run states, why would these people back incompetent Trump? What's in it for them? It's not like they are all Trump sycophants.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Trump's meritless legal challenges seem to be going down the toilet, and there seems to be very little chance that even our partisan SCOTUS is going to give Trump the relief he demands here.

These legal moonshots aside, that just leaves the more naked power grab options. Eyes on the states with Republican controlled legislatures that Biden won to see if they will refuse to certify the electors. Any such move will have little to do with legality and more to do with the naked use of power by a minoritarian government intent on retaining control.

It should be clear that any such move is the open abandonment of any meaningful Democratic process and the only effective way to counter a coup is widespread public unrest.

Trump and whose army?

Honestly, don't people have better things to do than this fear mongering? If you believe these things, let's hear the evidence, not the hypothetical.

15th November 2020, 08:43 AM	#281
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	It appears that Trump was trying to find support for an attempt at a Coup. I'm happy that he did not find that support. I think it's because he's a LOSER! LOL. Loser Trump. Donald Lame Duck.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

15th November 2020, 09:07 AM	#282
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,891
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

15th November 2020, 09:09 AM	#283
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,278	Originally Posted by slyjoe That may be, but do you think that's because he's the president? ETA: I mean, eventually he may be indistinguishable from someone's crazy screaming uncle. Of course it's because he's the president. His words will have less meaning when he's given the boot, but he will always be a former president. The press reported Bush's unremarkable comments about Biden's victory because his words still carry weight. They're newsworthy. This is more so the case for Trump, who is poised to "lead" a movement (yes, it's actually just a self-glorifcation project).
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

15th November 2020, 12:07 PM	#284
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by Cain Of course it's because he's the president. His words will have less meaning when he's given the boot, but he will always be a former president. The press reported Bush's unremarkable comments about Biden's victory because his words still carry weight. They're newsworthy. This is more so the case for Trump, who is poised to "lead" a movement (yes, it's actually just a self-glorifcation project). Being a former president does garner some attention, but if George W had a twitter account (does he? I don't even know) it certainly wouldn't have near the traffic of Trump's. If George W. had one and broke all their rules, I doubt they would give him a pass because of his former preisdent status and the traffic that drives. There's no shortage of celebrities on Twitter and they've been happy to permanently suspend a fair amount of them. Trump may retain a celebrity status out of office, but I'd be surprised if a year out he still commanded anything in the vicinity of his current traffic. They've had no problem banning Steve Bannon, David Icke, David Duke and many others with significant followings. I suspect that, regardless of what Trump tries to do out of office, most of the party will move on to a new figurehead. He may keep a loyal core, but if he stays out of prison, I suspect he''l be slightly more popular that Sarah Palin within four years. That wouldn't make him too much of a cash cow.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

16th November 2020, 01:22 AM	#285
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,865	Originally Posted by Cavemonster <snip> That wouldn't make him too much of a cash cow. More Golden Goose, surely. Boston Matrix will have to add 'Golden Goose' to their labelling. More useless business jargon meaning: 'Ousted CEO who tweets in his spare time, 'I WON!' Investment advice: 'Steer clear of this one and invest in the new one. Remember, the Golden Goose ended up badly.'
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

16th November 2020, 06:04 AM	#286
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Relevant article in which they talk to Larry Lessig: https://www.dailyposter.com/p/how-pence-and-gop-senators-could
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

16th November 2020, 06:39 AM	#287
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,361	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Relevant article in which they talk to Larry Lessig: https://www.dailyposter.com/p/how-pence-and-gop-senators-could Very concerning. It ain't over 'til it's over. GOP senators have shown that they're willing to do whatever they can to keep President Trump in post.

16th November 2020, 09:53 AM	#288
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by The Don Very concerning. It ain't over 'til it's over. GOP senators have shown that they're willing to do whatever they can to keep President Trump in post. Yes. As I have indicated here, I am not reassured by "it's against the rules" or by the fact that various state level Republican politicians have said they will not do that. Clearly, people say one thing & do another all the time and laws and conventions only work if they are enforced (and statements made by politicians are subject to revision at a later time). I still think that we are not heading that way (if nothing else, the demented Rudy Giuliani being in charge of the legal effort is very reassuring ). I think 5.5 million votes and the 306 Electoral College result might make the difference. However, I also think the same politicians and a 3 million popular vote difference with a smaller (but clear) Electoral College difference might be more amenable to the subversion of the electorate by these folk. It is extremely troubling, in any case, that US House & Senate Republicans are playing this for advantage. These are politicians who are showing themselves willing to subvert the electorate. Potentially, only the state level politicians are preventing this from actually executing (in the meantime the US legislative level Republicans are egging on extremists).
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

16th November 2020, 12:47 PM	#289
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,002	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Relevant article in which they talk to Larry Lessig: https://www.dailyposter.com/p/how-pence-and-gop-senators-could Damn, that's a scary read. What are the odds that enough of the GOP will jump on board with this?
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

16th November 2020, 12:53 PM	#290
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	If they do, they will start a second civil war.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

16th November 2020, 01:07 PM	#291
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,993	Those Senators can support Trump all they want to, it doesn't change the fact there is no power behind the curtains. The military is not backing this imaginary coup.

16th November 2020, 01:11 PM	#292
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,461	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Those Senators can support Trump all they want to, it doesn't change the fact there is no power behind the curtains. The military is not backing this imaginary coup. But will it overthrow congress if the senate does that? Will the military install Biden if the political mechanism don't?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

16th November 2020, 01:19 PM	#293
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,681	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle But will it overthrow congress if the senate does that? Will the military install Biden if the political mechanism don't? All they have to do is for the Aide carrying the nuclear football to not show up one morning at the White House an instead start hanging out with Biden. I'm pretty sure even the Republicans will get the message.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

16th November 2020, 02:40 PM	#294
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130	many republicans have signaled they recognize a biden victory even as they placate Trump's delicate feelings
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130

16th November 2020, 03:00 PM	#295
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,993	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle But will it overthrow congress if the senate does that? Will the military install Biden if the political mechanism don't? Is this a joke? I don't get it.

16th November 2020, 03:55 PM	#296
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,417	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Is this a joke? I don't get it. Did you read the Lessig interview linked above?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

17th November 2020, 12:23 AM	#297
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,993	Originally Posted by d4m10n Did you read the Lessig interview linked above? Quote: The unlikely-but-possible scenario revolves around the prospect of competing slates of electors This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this. It would seem the fear mongering is still selling the news.

17th November 2020, 12:45 AM	#298
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,361	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this. It would seem the fear mongering is still selling the news. If Republican leaders came out and said that Joe Biden is the President elect then there'd be much less traction for this kind of thing. Instead we have them supporting President Trump, echoing his "every legal vote", supporting his lawsuits and making reference to a second Trump term. People would be more sanguine about an orderly transfer of power if the GOP seemed at all interested in it. Instead they seem to be doing everything they can to obstruct and frustrate. At the moment it's "just" not allowing the release of funds for the transition and not allowing Joe Biden access to security briefings - in part because the US public aren't making a big deal out of it. If they (they in this case being both the national Republican leadership and the state leaders in those states) think that the blowback will be worth it, then why not take these entirely legal steps ? edited to add...... We've heard it so many times in recent years, "They won't/can't do that". Whether it's refusing even to consider a SCOTUS nominee and then forcing through another in similar circumstances, the myriad cases of President Trump behaving in ways which would have bene previously unthinkable or embracing groups who would otherwise be anathema to the party, the GOP is breaking new ground all the time.
	Last edited by The Don; 17th November 2020 at 12:49 AM.

17th November 2020, 04:07 AM	#299
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,461	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Is this a joke? I don't get it. You said they would not install Trump but in the event that the coup language moves up to actual coup, would they stand against it or stand asside? Right now we have the situation where they seem to be laying the ground work for a coup that they seem to be not serious about, but there is no internal blowback from the laying the groundwork for a coup.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

17th November 2020, 04:15 AM	#300
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	History repeats itself. No one took seriously Hitler or Stalin at beginning too.
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

17th November 2020, 05:29 AM	#301
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,417	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this. Trust their word if you like; I'm old enough to remember when Republican legislators emphatically insisted they would never push a SCOTUS pick through during an election.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; 17th November 2020 at 05:31 AM.

17th November 2020, 05:45 AM	#302
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	Trump's meritless legal challenges seem to be going down the toilet, and there seems to be very little chance that even our partisan SCOTUS is going to give Trump the relief he demands here. These legal moonshots aside, that just leaves the more naked power grab options. Eyes on the states with Republican controlled legislatures that Biden won to see if they will refuse to certify the electors. Any such move will have little to do with legality and more to do with the naked use of power by a minoritarian government intent on retaining control. It should be clear that any such move is the open abandonment of any meaningful Democratic process and the only effective way to counter a coup is widespread public unrest.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th November 2020 at 05:47 AM.

17th November 2020, 05:49 AM	#303
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,417	Timeline for certification in PA: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...eline/2592719/
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

17th November 2020, 05:56 AM	#304
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,678	Originally Posted by The Don If Republican leaders came out and said that Joe Biden is the President elect then there'd be much less traction for this kind of thing. Instead we have them supporting President Trump, echoing his "every legal vote", supporting his lawsuits and making reference to a second Trump term. People would be more sanguine about an orderly transfer of power if the GOP seemed at all interested in it. Instead they seem to be doing everything they can to obstruct and frustrate. At the moment it's "just" not allowing the release of funds for the transition and not allowing Joe Biden access to security briefings - in part because the US public aren't making a big deal out of it. If they (they in this case being both the national Republican leadership and the state leaders in those states) think that the blowback will be worth it, then why not take these entirely legal steps ? edited to add...... We've heard it so many times in recent years, "They won't/can't do that". Whether it's refusing even to consider a SCOTUS nominee and then forcing through another in similar circumstances, the myriad cases of President Trump behaving in ways which would have bene previously unthinkable or embracing groups who would otherwise be anathema to the party, the GOP is breaking new ground all the time. A few GOP leaders have begun to make some cautious noises indicating acceptance of Biden's win- Rubio referred to Biden as President-elect, for one. (The Hill article via MSN) Senator Risch from Idaho came up with an analogy for the transition that kind of struck me- Quote: "This is my second transition where we move from one political party to another in the White House," he said Friday, describing the incoming administration as having "an entirely different feeling or dynamic." "It is a change in the music that is playing in the background. We go from heavy metal to classical music in one fell swoop," he added. (Donald Trump as heavy metal- and not the heavy metal I grew up with, more the cacophonous mess with one-note sludge on guitars and guttural growls passing for vocals that seems so popular these days, and you kids get offa my damn lawn!) But I think the game going forward will be to paint Biden's Presidency as somehow tainted by the allegations of fraud that they themselves, as a party, are responsible for. It'll become a self-feeding and self-serving narrative- Biden narrowly won- and never mind that his EC count will be the same as the one Trump claimed as a landslide, and his popular vote margin probably close to six million. That specious taint will let them pose piously, when they block his SC nominations or policy initiatives, as the folks who, after all, kept a Senate majority and increased their House share.* This was the rationale they used to block Obama's SC pick in 2016 and to ram through their own this year, and there was never any controversy about Obama's election; imagine what they will do with Biden when they can paint his election as somewhat questionable. *They've claimed to be the "voice of the American people" through their Senate majority; to me, that particular voice is a deliberately fragmented one, Americans speaking as New Yorkers or Texans, Floridians or Californians, each speaking for its own interests and only superficially resembling a chorus carrying a common tune. It's true enough that the popular vote isn't what elects presidents; but I think it's only fair to remind Republicans who claim to speak with an "American voice" that, when Americans have actually spoken as a whole to elect a representative common to them all, only once in 32 years has the GOP managed a win- Bush in 2004, and that was with a margin that was only about half of what Biden has so far.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King Last edited by turingtest; 17th November 2020 at 06:24 AM. Reason: grammar

17th November 2020, 06:02 AM	#305
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this. Indeed. We should all just be thankful that it will be Biden who gets to replace the SCOTUS vacancy left behind when Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. Because we obviously must have a vacancy since Mitch McConnell said he would not consider a SCOTUS Justice nomination vote close to a presidential election.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

17th November 2020, 06:07 AM	#306
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,395	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This has been discussed ad nauseum. The state legislators said they were not going to do this. It would seem the fear mongering is still selling the news. "Guys relax, it's just an attempted coup." https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...105016832?s=20
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th November 2020, 06:09 AM	#307
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Indeed. We should all just be thankful that it will be Biden who gets to replace the SCOTUS vacancy left behind when Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. Because we obviously must have a vacancy since Mitch McConnell said he would not consider a SCOTUS Justice nomination vote close to a presidential election. And even if Mitch HAD somehow gone back on his word, he wouldn't have had the votes to confirm. Because senators like Lindsey Graham said explicitly: Quote: I want you to use my words against me. If there’s a Republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say Lindsey Graham said let’s let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination. So seriously, people who try to tell me not to worry because republican politicians promised they'd do the right thing can bite my ass.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

17th November 2020, 06:25 AM	#308
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by Cavemonster And even if Mitch HAD somehow gone back on his word, he wouldn't have had the votes to confirm. Because senators like Lindsey Graham said explicitly: So seriously, people who try to tell me not to worry because republican politicians promised they'd do the right thing can bite my ass. Yeah, that was supposed to be Lindsay Graham in my post (why do I get those two confused?). also, Lindsay Graham would seem to be perfectly fine with engaging in electoral interference despite not being a thing that one would think to be legal. Originally Posted by angrysoba "Guys relax, it's just an attempted coup." https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...105016832?s=20 Again, they are all waiting to see if enough on their side do the thing before they themselves do the thing. They are not doing the thing only because they are not yet sure. What they said they would do is not a part of the heuristic that they are applying.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

17th November 2020, 10:48 AM	#309
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,061	Graham has explained his call to the Georgia SOS. He was Just Asking Questions.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

17th November 2020, 11:03 AM	#310
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,528	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Graham has explained his call to the Georgia SOS. He was Just Asking Questions. "Would you mind undermining the very foundation of a free society and skull **** our voting process? Just checking"
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

17th November 2020, 11:14 AM	#311
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	This is pretty grim. While I don't see the partisan SCOTUS overturning a state election result, I can easily imagine them cooking up some BS pretext for why it wouldn't be proper to intervene if some state official was throwing out ballots en masse. They could easily paint abdication of duty as judicial conservatism, even if it was clear that constitutional voting rights were being violated through deliberately ham-fisted "voting fraud" purges that resulted in hundreds of thousands of legitimate ballots getting trashed. While taking an active part in a soft coup might be beyond the pale, adopting a "there's just nothing we can do" attitude in light of an obvious power grab is much more palatable.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th November 2020 at 11:32 AM.

17th November 2020, 11:29 AM	#312
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,030	Originally Posted by Thermal "Would you mind undermining the very foundation of a free society and skull **** our voting process? Just checking" "See, if he'd have said "YES!", I'd have called the cops on him! It was a sting operation!"
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

17th November 2020, 11:36 AM	#313
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,368	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey They could easily paint abdication of duty as judicial conservatism, even if it was clear that constitutional voting rights were being violated through deliberately ham-fisted "voting fraud" purges that resulted in hundreds of thousands of legitimate ballots getting trashed. Or, as the Republican Party calls it, 'Tuesday'. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

17th November 2020, 12:09 PM	#314
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,681	It's the GOP motto: as long as we don't actually manage to destroy the US, what's the harm in trying really hard?

17th November 2020, 12:30 PM	#315
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza It's the GOP motto: as long as we don't actually manage to destroy the US, what's the harm in trying really hard? There is no attempted murder, only murder! They have made this kind of insinuation several times, particularly when some of their guys get caught molesting women.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.