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Old 24th October 2019, 08:56 AM   #241
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You are describing a set of people who cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, or travel anywhere. Not only this, but they must also not know anyone who can help them with this.
These people, should they exist in any significant numbers, would be unable to register to vote anyway. The introduction of an ID card, I would argue, would make no difference to this.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that 3.5 million people in the UK cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, travel anywhere or contact anyone (family, friends, charities, the welfare state) who can help them with this.
Who are these people, and how do they manage to survive?
Sorry but saying its fine because all you have to do is jump through umpteen hoops to get the damn thing is ridiculous.

First off if you don't have a proper ID like a passport or driving license you are going to have an issue. And those things cost money and time and effort to obtain.

Secondly, your MP may be quite some distance away, only available during working hours on certain days and may want to meet you in person to verify you are who you say you are.

And thirdly, it may not be that they are incapable of doing it but that they prioritise other things as more important - such as going to work, feeding their kids, caring for an elderly relative - things that may not simply be able to be put on hold while you swan around trying to get some ID.
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Old 25th October 2019, 04:35 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How would you know?
Please cite your evidence for any significant level of vote fraud in the UK. Or the USA for that matter.

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Old 25th October 2019, 04:37 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your response misses the point: if the potential problem is that your system can't detect certain security violations, then the lack of detected violations doesn't demonstrate that your system is secure. So again, how would you know? How can you tell that you're just not able to detect the fraud that is happening?
Please explain all that you know, or think you know, about voting in the UK as related to security, personation and other fraud related matters.
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Old 25th October 2019, 04:40 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Because - as already mentioned up-thread - the Electoral Commission proactively monitors voting, and investigates suspected voter fraud.
Plus there are polling clerks (something Ziggurat seems not to know about or understand).
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Old 25th October 2019, 06:24 AM   #245
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If you were going to rig votes in the UK I would imagine that postal votes would be a more likely target than in person voting as they seem more amenable to being tampered with.
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Old 25th October 2019, 06:52 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If you were going to rig votes in the UK I would imagine that postal votes would be a more likely target than in person voting as they seem more amenable to being tampered with.
They were, but the EC detected the fraud and made changes.
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Old 25th October 2019, 07:31 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes I did, in fact I think I posted it well before you.
As a matter of fact, you didn't, but that's by the by.


Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If you don't have one of the IDs then you need to ask your MP, MEP, MLA or Councillor to complete a declaration. Now I happen to have had plenty of dealings with my local MP and even though he represents a party I wouldn't vote for in a million years, I'd feel comfortable asking him for such a declaration (though whether he'd be willing to provide one is another question, he may not know me from Adam). That's because I'm a middle class person from a politically active family and have rubbed elbows with MPs as long as I can remember.
Look at what you're saying here. You are saying that people who really want to vote have no dealings with their MP, and wouldn't feel comfortable contacting them.
This makes no sense to me at all.
You also appear to be saying that MPs could refuse to provide the verification that the government guidelines stipulate that they have to. This also makes no sense to me.


Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Because study after study shows that tighter voter ID requirements tend to exclude the same classes pf people - which is why conservatives are so keen on it.
Please quote some of these studies, because I haven't noticed any so far in this thread.
I'm not being snarky: I'm always happy to change my mind in light of evidence. It's just that, in this case, the arguments and evidence for this supposed disenfranchisement have been extremely weak.


Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Many people wouldn't know how to reach out to their MP. Of course to declare that you are entitled to get an ID, the MP would need to verify that you are who you claim and you're entitled to the ID
That people who want to vote would have no idea who their MP was or how to contact them, and would have no idea how to find that information (Google?), and would have no contact with anyone who could help them, is yet another repetition of a claim that is so far unevidenced and, to my mind, unlikely.
Do you have anything to back this up?
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Old 25th October 2019, 07:42 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Sorry but saying its fine because all you have to do is jump through umpteen hoops to get the damn thing is ridiculous.
It's not 'umpteen hoops': it's one application process.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
First off if you don't have a proper ID like a passport or driving license you are going to have an issue. And those things cost money and time and effort to obtain.
No, you don't. Please read the links to the actual process going on in Northern Ireland right now. If you don't have a passport or photo driving licence, you can get a free voter ID from the local authority.
Yes, it might take a few minutes to fill out the application. If that is enough to discourage you from voting, then perhaps you are not taking the responsibility that seriously.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Secondly, your MP may be quite some distance away, only available during working hours on certain days and may want to meet you in person to verify you are who you say you are.
They have to meet you in person, obviously: they are verifying your identity. Again, if making an effort is too much bother, then perhaps participating in a democracy is not for you.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And thirdly, it may not be that they are incapable of doing it but that they prioritise other things as more important - such as going to work, feeding their kids, caring for an elderly relative - things that may not simply be able to be put on hold while you swan around trying to get some ID.
Once again, if voting is not a priority, then it's not an issue. If you think it's important, then make an effort. I think you are perhaps exaggerating the scale of the problem by suggesting that children will starve and the elderly left to rot unattended because of this proposed scheme.
I should point out that, in order to register to vote, you need an NI number and a passport. The process for getting a voter ID is not significantly more arduous than the current process of registering to vote.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7688851.html
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Old 25th October 2019, 07:48 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
As a matter of fact, you didn't, but that's by the by.
My apologies if that is the case.



Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Look at what you're saying here. You are saying that people who really want to vote have no dealings with their MP, and wouldn't feel comfortable contacting them.
This makes no sense to me at all.
You also appear to be saying that MPs could refuse to provide the verification that the government guidelines stipulate that they have to. This also makes no sense to me.
Yes, absolutely there are a lot of people who wouldn't even know about how to go about contacting their MP much less follow through and do it.

Then there are people who don't feel comfortable dealing with authority figures.

Then there are people who are really bad at admin, Mrs Don encounters these regularly as party of her charity work. These are the same kind of people who leave some or all of their benefits unclaimed because they aren't aware of their entitlements or feel that it's too difficult to fill in the forms.

As for the MPs. If they are obliged to vouch for the identity of their constituents then they jolly well need to ensure that the people in question are who they say they are, live where they say they live and are entitled to vote. Imagine the uproar if an MP or councillor in some Northern town managed to get hundreds of illegal immigrants voter ID simply by vouching for them.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Please quote some of these studies, because I haven't noticed any so far in this thread.
I'm not being snarky: I'm always happy to change my mind in light of evidence. It's just that, in this case, the arguments and evidence for this supposed disenfranchisement have been extremely weak.
The Electoral Commission would be a good starting point.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That people who want to vote would have no idea who their MP was or how to contact them, and would have no idea how to find that information (Google?), and would have no contact with anyone who could help them, is yet another repetition of a claim that is so far unevidenced and, to my mind, unlikely.
Do you have anything to back this up?
You assume that everyone has access to the internet, the ability to use it and the determination to follow through, contact their MP, take the time off work to go and see them with all the supporting documentation they'd need to prove to their MO that they are who they say they are.
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Old 25th October 2019, 07:51 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The process for getting a voter ID is not significantly more arduous than the current process of registering to vote.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7688851.html
It depends.

If it's the proposed version for the UK if you don't have photo ID, you'd need your original birth certificate.

If it's the NI version then without appropriate photo ID, you'd need an MP, councillor or whoever to vouch for you.

It's just an extra hurdle to voting, to make it a bit more difficult for those on the margins of society to vote.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:12 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
It's the kind of thing you'd want some evidence that it is a real, practical risk and not just theoretical before you waste a lot of money on preventative measures.

Swinging an election by impersonation of voters at polling stations would be a massive and complex operation, there would be a lot of evidence of any attempt to do it, so I would be happy relying on the Electoral Commissions opinion that it is a none issue.
^ This. Even as it currently stands, would-be fraudsters would have to know for sure who wasn't going to vote, because it would only take a few people turning up at polling stations and finding someone else had apparently already voted in their name to raise a red flag. This is especially true, given that with FPTP, rather than a popular vote election system.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:18 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Look at what you're saying here. You are saying that people who really want to vote have no dealings with their MP, and wouldn't feel comfortable contacting them.
This makes no sense to me at all.
I've never had 'dealings' with an MP in my 50 years of voting.

Our current MP has his office some 20 miles from where we used to live, but it's rural and would take at least 3 buses with whatever waits for each bus. Then home again. This alone is more than enough to put off the majority of people who don't drive. His sessions with individual voters (known as surgeries) are every 2 weeks or so from 10:30 to 13:00, by appointment only.

4 days ago I sent him a brief and (I think) well-explained email about our worries about losing reciprocal health care. So far no reply except the automatic receipt confirmation.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:26 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are lots of people who reliably do not vote. Pick one of them, and you'll never be detected.
How?
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:31 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Voter registration rolls are public record. In the US, whether or not someone voted is also public record.
In the UK it isn't.

Quote:
In fact, it's probably easiest to do if they aren't registered (which, again, is public record). Then you register in their name and vote for them, and they'll never know.
Given the uses the UK Electoral Register is put to - and how it is compiled in the first place - that doesn't work, either.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 25th October 2019 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:34 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not the only possible failure mode, though. Other modes include voters who have not been purged from the rolls, either after death, or after moving to a different district. These are people who are unlikely to show up, but their identities can still be used to cast additional votes.
Again, the way UK Electoral Registers are compiled works against that.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:48 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the verification is a mailed form, do you think that's not hard to fake? Of course it's easy to fake. The address needs to be real, and you have to have access to that address, but the person doesn't.
You still needs scores if not hundreds of such addresses per ward/constituency. "Ghost" residents at such addresses would have to be identities that would appear unique, not registered elsewhere, but would be prone to detection due to the uses the electoral register is put to.

Quote:
If faking the ID is harder than faking the electoral roll (and by your description, faking the electoral roll entry is easy), then yes, it is, because you can't use the fake electoral roll entry without an ID.
I would suggest you have still not understood how UK electoral registers are compiled and maintained.

Quote:
Oh, and BTW, the fact that there's no record of who voted is also a vulnerability. You can't check if anyone voted in your name in any year you didn't.
There is a record, it's just not publicly accessible.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 25th October 2019 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:52 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't know where you're getting that number from, but it's wildly wrong. The estimated costs are on page 29 (PDF page 30) of this report:

https://www.electoralcommission.org....March-2016.pdf

Annual costs range from about $2 million to $11 million, depending on the details, but nothing even close to $500 million per year.
Wow!
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:53 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are the procedures ever subjected to independent audit?
The Electoral Commission has been mentioned several times already.
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Old 25th October 2019, 10:31 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I find it puzzling that there are often long lines at US polling stations, I've never had any kind of wait whether I was voting in London, Bristol, a small Northern English market town or rural Wales.
Yes, I think that might be another aspect of the cultural disconnect going on in this thread. From what I've heard previously, voting in the US - even major cities - is an arduous process, despite voting being spread over several days. In contrast, I've never lived anywhere more than a 5-15 minute walk from my designated polling station.
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Old 25th October 2019, 10:37 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You are describing a set of people who cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, or travel anywhere. Not only this, but they must also not know anyone who can help them with this.
These people, should they exist in any significant numbers, would be unable to register to vote anyway.
Sorry, but that's not a logical conclusion to reach in the UK. As other have, you have failed to understand how UK electoral registers are compiled.
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Old 25th October 2019, 10:46 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Look at what you're saying here. You are saying that people who really want to vote have no dealings with their MP, and wouldn't feel comfortable contacting them.
This makes no sense to me at all.
Maybe to you, but you clearly can't speak for the UK electorate. In 35 years as a voter, I have had cause to contact my MP precisely once, and that was for something pretty exceptional. Meanwhile, Mrs Analyst, even as a party political activist, has never contacted her own MP ever.
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Old 25th October 2019, 10:47 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Maybe to you, but you clearly can't speak for the UK electorate. In 35 years as a voter, I have had cause to contact my MP precisely once, and that was for something pretty exceptional. Meanwhile, Mrs Analyst, even as a party political activist, has never contacted her own MP ever.
Same here, Iíve never met any MP. I have taken the photo of the current one a couple of times in my role as occasional press photographer.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:04 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The Electoral Commission has been mentioned several times already.
Yup. My inquiries have been addressed. Thanks.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:13 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People who live 'chaotic' lives probably are not fit to vote.
Then why not have the courage of your "convictions" and legally disenfranchise them? Rather than doing it by stealth while pretending it's for a different reasons.

And just who, in your opinion, is "not fit to vote"; welfare recipients, the elderly, the poor, the mentally ill, criminals, the homeless.... Please, tell us.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:24 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It's not 'umpteen hoops': it's one application process.



No, you don't. Please read the links to the actual process going on in Northern Ireland right now. If you don't have a passport or photo driving licence, you can get a free voter ID from the local authority.
Yes, it might take a few minutes to fill out the application. If that is enough to discourage you from voting, then perhaps you are not taking the responsibility that seriously.



They have to meet you in person, obviously: they are verifying your identity. Again, if making an effort is too much bother, then perhaps participating in a democracy is not for you.



Once again, if voting is not a priority, then it's not an issue. If you think it's important, then make an effort. I think you are perhaps exaggerating the scale of the problem by suggesting that children will starve and the elderly left to rot unattended because of this proposed scheme.
I should point out that, in order to register to vote, you need an NI number and a passport. The process for getting a voter ID is not significantly more arduous than the current process of registering to vote.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7688851.html
one Application process with umpteen hoops.

The free voter ID requires you to have ID, go to the one location its available in person or get an MP to vouch for your identity. None of these are simple.

Your comments on making an effort are contemptible and ignorant.

You dont need a passport to register to vote. where did you get that idea?
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:27 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Individually yes its possible to vote in another name but to do this the thousands of times necessary to change an election outcome is where I struggle to believe there is a risk.
Even to alter the vote usefully in one constituency would be a significant task, requiring multiple persons to commit personation in different polling places to manage even a couple of hundred false ballots.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:33 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
For such a big and obvious security hole, has there been an election where this kind of fraud had been even suspected in affecting the results?
No. Even in NI with well organised, resourced and numerous paramilitary groups, while there was low level fraud, it was ineffective; as Paul Bradley out it;
"There is no evidence of widespread and organised fraud".
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:36 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yep, the effort required would be huge and any useful return is very unlikely.

It strikes me that, in the absence of a polling card, being required to present a credit card or official letter would be enough. It's very difficult for an impersonator to get hold of such a thing, and to cast more than one fraudulent vote that way increases the difficulty of the whole plan.

On top of all this there is the real risk that the person being impersonated has already voted, alerting the polling station to the shenanigans.
And, to my mind the most important problem, the polling clerks are local people, they know many of the people who're entitled to vote at the particular place.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:39 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
So hard to detect it's not even been suspected
That's despite the scrutiny of the parties themselves, in addition to the police, Electoral Commission et cetera.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:42 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are lots of people who reliably do not vote. Pick one of them, and you'll never be detected.
Rubbish. Firstly you'd need to *know* they wouldn't vote, and take the risk that someone who knew them wasn't in the polling place, not to forget getting the polling card.
And you've now cast one vote.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:42 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Even to alter the vote usefully in one constituency would be a significant task, requiring multiple persons to commit personation in different polling places to manage even a couple of hundred false ballots.
And ...

It would only conceivably be worth doing if the vote was fully expected to be close in an almost entirely 2-way battle.

You'd need to know the voting intentions of the person being personated, otherwise it's about 50-50 you're wasting your time because they were going to vote your way anyway.

They mustn't have voted before you do, or you could get nicked.

You've wasted your time - and taken a risk - if your party would have won anyway without the fraud.

You've wasted your time - and taken a risk - if your fraud fails anyway.

The very idea of significant voter fraud in the UK is ridiculous. And, yeah, Ziggurat is technically correct in that you don't know the true extent of any fraud going on, but (und zis is ein big but) such evidence as there is plus the implausibility of personation being at all useful speak volumes.
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Last edited by GlennB; 25th October 2019 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:46 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the verification is a mailed form, do you think that's not hard to fake? Of course it's easy to fake. The address needs to be real, and you have to have access to that address, but the person doesn't.



If faking the ID is harder than faking the electoral roll (and by your description, faking the electoral roll entry is easy), then yes, it is, because you can't use the fake electoral roll entry without an ID.

Oh, and BTW, the fact that there's no record of who voted is also a vulnerability. You can't check if anyone voted in your name in any year you didn't.
Go any study how UK elections are run before you spout more nonsense.
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Old 27th October 2019, 12:26 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How would you pick these people? How would you know they are registered to vote? And that gets you one vote. Even in a small ward you would need hundreds of different people to start having an effect in most cases. (I am sure there are some wards which go to single figures but that is rather rare).
And you need to make sure the people you're planning to impersonate are allocated to different polling stations. Or, take fake moustaches...
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Old 28th October 2019, 04:48 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
And you need to make sure the people you're planning to impersonate are allocated to different polling stations. Or, take fake moustaches...


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