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Old 18th January 2017, 04:38 AM   #1
jonesdave116
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Humans in North America by 24 000 yrs BP

A new paper in PLoS ONE.

Abstract:

Quote:
The timing of the first entry of humans into North America is still hotly debated within the scientific community. Excavations conducted at Bluefish Caves (Yukon Territory) from 1977 to 1987 yielded a series of radiocarbon dates that led archaeologists to propose that the initial dispersal of human groups into Eastern Beringia (Alaska and the Yukon Territory) occurred during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). This hypothesis proved highly controversial in the absence of other sites of similar age and concerns about the stratigraphy and anthropogenic signature of the bone assemblages that yielded the dates. The weight of the available archaeological evidence suggests that the first peopling of North America occurred ca. 14,000 cal BP (calibrated years Before Present), i.e., well after the LGM. Here, we report new AMS radiocarbon dates obtained on cut-marked bone samples identified during a comprehensive taphonomic analysis of the Bluefish Caves fauna. Our results demonstrate that humans occupied the site as early as 24,000 cal BP (19,650 ± 130 14C BP). In addition to proving that Bluefish Caves is the oldest known archaeological site in North America, the results offer archaeological support for the "Beringian standstill hypothesis", which proposes that a genetically isolated human population persisted in Beringia during the LGM and dispersed from there to North and South America during the post-LGM period.
That is a hell of a jump back, timewise. Would make sense of some of the other 'anomalous' datings, such as Monte Verde. The recent evidence does all seem to be pointing to an earlier peopling than previously thought.

Full paper here:
Earliest Human Presence in North America Dated to the Last Glacial Maximum: New Radiocarbon Dates from Bluefish Caves, Canada
Bourgeon, L. et al
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...type=printable
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Old 18th January 2017, 06:10 AM   #2
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Could it be an early attempt at colonization which failed?

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Old 18th January 2017, 06:15 AM   #3
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Quote:
24,000 cal BP (19,650 ± 130 14C BP).
Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean? Why the two wildly different numbers?
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Old 18th January 2017, 06:25 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean? Why the two wildly different numbers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibr...iocarbon_dates

Describes it better than I could.
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Old 18th January 2017, 06:28 AM   #5
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? The second number is 19.6 the first 24. Looks like two different ways to measure it. The second uses C-14.

There is a calibration process:
Calibrated 14
C dates are frequently reported as cal BP, cal BC, or cal AD, again with BP referring to the year 1950 as the zero date.[77] Radiocarbon gives two options for reporting calibrated dates. A common format is "cal <date-range> <confidence>", where:

<date-range> is the range of dates corresponding to the given confidence level
<confidence> indicates the confidence level for the given date range.
For example, "cal 1220–1281 AD (1σ)" means a calibrated date for which the true date lies between 1220 AD and 1281 AD, with the confidence level given as 1σ, or one standard deviation. Calibrated dates can also be expressed as BP instead of using BC and AD. The curve used to calibrate the results should be the latest available INTCAL curve. Calibrated dates should also identify any programs, such as OxCal, used to perform the calibration.[76] In addition, an article in Radiocarbon in 2014 about radiocarbon date reporting conventions recommends that information should be provided about sample treatment, including the sample material, pretreatment methods, and quality control measurements; that the citation to the software used for calibration should specify the version number and any options or models used; and that the calibrated date should be given with the associated probabilities for each range.[78]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating
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Old 18th January 2017, 06:39 AM   #6
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Just to clarify: the 24 000 yrs date is 'real' years. This has been calibrated from the radiocarbon date of 19 650 yrs. Radiocarbon years are not totally accurate due to a differing atmospheric 14C/12C ratio over time. The longer back in time you go, the larger the discrepancy is liable to be. The differences have been calibrated by reference to materials of known age.
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Old 18th January 2017, 08:40 AM   #7
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I trhink a 5-10,000 year difference, or 250-500 generations, would show in some kind of genetic study? That is, if it was the dater the current "Indians" came over. And if it wasn't, is the date of a vacioneer of any import?
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Old 18th January 2017, 08:48 AM   #8
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On another thread I posted this:

Bones of elephant ancestor unearthed: Meet the gomphothere

Quote:
the bones that Holliday and his colleagues uncovered date back 13,400 years, making them the last known gomphotheres in North America.
...
Radiocarbon dating, done at the UA, puts the El Fin del Mundo site at about 13,400 years old, making it one of the two oldest known Clovis sites in North America; the other is the Aubrey Clovis site in north Texas.

The position and proximity of Clovis weapon fragments relative to the gomphothere bones at the site suggest that humans did in fact kill the two animals there. Of the seven Clovis points found at the site, four were in place among the bones, including one with bone and teeth fragments above and below.
Finding Would Reveal Contact between Humans and Gomphotheres in North America

Quote:
This finding completes a scene in which archaeologists visualized how Clovis groups hunted this elephant ancestor. “This is an unprecedented finding in Mexico since it is the first time that projectile heads are found associated to a bone bed of this kind of proboscides.
It's evidence humans had made it all the way to Mexico by 13,400 BP. Now I suppose it is possible that the migration was so huge that the population spread that far in 600 or so years. But I find that pretty unlikely. Your new date seems much more plausible, and explains the extinction of the megafauna much better.
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Old 18th January 2017, 08:52 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibr...iocarbon_dates

Describes it better than I could.
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Just to clarify: the 24 000 yrs date is 'real' years. This has been calibrated from the radiocarbon date of 19 650 yrs. Radiocarbon years are not totally accurate due to a differing atmospheric 14C/12C ratio over time. The longer back in time you go, the larger the discrepancy is liable to be. The differences have been calibrated by reference to materials of known age.
Seems to me like your description beats Wikipedia's.
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:12 AM   #10
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Also I found this which places humans all the way south to Patagonia ~15 to 14.6 ka:
Quote:
Synergistic roles of climate warming and human occupation in Patagonian megafaunal extinctions during the Last Deglaciation The Americas provide a unique opportunity to disentangle these factors as human colonization took place over a narrow time frame (~15 to 14.6 ka)
The idea that humans made it that far south so early doesn't make sense if they only passed the bering strait only well after the Last Glacial Maximum. Either they came some other way, or they started sooner. Remember it is not how fast you can walk, but rather how fast a population spread, which is usually much slower. Unless something was pushing them like lack of resources or war.
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Old 18th January 2017, 06:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Also I found this which places humans all the way south to Patagonia ~15 to 14.6 ka:

The idea that humans made it that far south so early doesn't make sense if they only passed the bering strait only well after the Last Glacial Maximum. Either they came some other way, or they started sooner. Remember it is not how fast you can walk, but rather how fast a population spread, which is usually much slower. Unless something was pushing them like lack of resources or war.
I think that there is more to it. I saw a BBC documentary, with the lovely Alice Roberts (don't let anybody else say that they saw her first, because they are lying), and it seems to me that the evidence points towards an earlier peopling. Now, if that means by boat, along the west coast, then so be it. However, Monte Verde says they were there a lot earlier than the 'Clovis were first' brigade. Methinks we were all over the place by then. But that is only an opinion. Evidence is starting to say that the dates from Monte Verde might be correct, though.
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:11 PM   #12
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I think South America is eventually going to be the give away and may show a trans-Pacific wave that was later displaced southward by the Beringina mob. Even in SA grapjhics still being deciphered there were battles between differing phenotypes depicted.

If it sounds like the Australian pygmy controversy ....so it should.

Quote:
It has been confirmed that "some Amazonian Native Americans descend partly from a ... founding population that carried ancestry more closely related to indigenous Australians, New Guineans and Andaman Islanders than to any present-day Eurasians or Native Americans", according to a genetic study published in the prestigious journal Nature in July 2015.[33]
The authors, who included David Reich, added: "This signature is not present to the same extent, or at all, in present-day Northern and Central Americans or in a ~12,600-year-old Clovis-associated genome, suggesting a more diverse set of founding populations of the Americas than previously accepted."

This appears to conflict with an article published roughly simultaneously in Science which adopts the previous consensus perspective. "The ancestors of all Native Americans entered the Americas as a single migration wave from Siberia (purple) no earlier than ~23 ka, separate from the Inuit (green), and diversified into "northern" and "southern" Native American branches ~13 ka. There is evidence of post-divergence gene flow between some Native Americans and groups related to East Asians/Inuit and Australo-Melanesians (yellow).[34]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Co...ntact_theories

There is an earlier wave we can only vaguely glimpse as yet.

Good read

Quote:
A DNA Search for the First Americans Links Amazon Groups to Indigenous Australians

The new genetic analysis takes aim at the theory that just one founding group settled the Americas

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...jZLgxSCMc34.99
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:21 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
I think that there is more to it. I saw a BBC documentary, with the lovely Alice Roberts (don't let anybody else say that they saw her first, because they are lying), and it seems to me that the evidence points towards an earlier peopling. Now, if that means by boat, along the west coast, then so be it. However, Monte Verde says they were there a lot earlier than the 'Clovis were first' brigade. Methinks we were all over the place by then. But that is only an opinion. Evidence is starting to say that the dates from Monte Verde might be correct, though.
The lovely Alice Roberts posing with jonesdave116......................He wishes!!!!! http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...rammes_The.jpg
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:24 PM   #14
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Go to dogpile.com, click images, enter the search as Alice Roberts OR>>>>>just go

HERE: http://www.dogpile.com/search/images...ce+Roberts&ql=
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:25 PM   #15
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I am also in other places known as Hunter. There is a good reason for that!!!!
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Old 19th January 2017, 02:32 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
I saw a BBC documentary, with the lovely Alice Roberts (don't let anybody else say that they saw her first, because they are lying), and it seems to me that the evidence points towards an earlier peopling.
The Incredible Human Journey?

It was linked to in this earlier thread, which contains some more interesting links on theories of multiple migration waves into the Americas.
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Old 19th January 2017, 03:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The lovely Alice Roberts posing with jonesdave116......................He wishes!!!!! http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...rammes_The.jpg
OK, I'm not getting any younger, but that is offensive!
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Old 19th January 2017, 06:12 AM   #18
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Amanderthals?
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Old 19th January 2017, 06:35 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
OK, I'm not getting any younger, but that is offensive!
Just could not resist!!!!!!!
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Old 19th January 2017, 10:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
I think South America is eventually going to be the give away and may show a trans-Pacific wave that was later displaced southward by the Beringina mob. Even in SA grapjhics still being deciphered there were battles between differing phenotypes depicted.

If it sounds like the Australian pygmy controversy ....so it should.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Co...ntact_theories

There is an earlier wave we can only vaguely glimpse as yet.

Good read
Yes thanks. To me the most compelling evidence is only implied. That being the quick rise of the clovis point culture, yet no asian "early version". To me that implies an earlier colonization and population growth, then a technology advancement only after the easiest resources became exploited beyond the point where a new need was necessary. Technology can spread much faster than populations, at that scale.

That of course is only indirect evidence with alternate possible explanations. But it is my thinking. Hard evidence of that scenario has been pretty difficult to find.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 01:31 AM   #21
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This should break the 13k nonsense

Well finally we get some hard evidence of humans in the America's before 13 BP.
The idea has been smoldering for a long time but there was always some doubt introduced.....not this time.


Quote:
AUGUST 1, 2022
New Mexico mammoths among best evidence for early humans in North America
A recent study led by scientists with The University of Texas at Austin finds that the site offers some of the most conclusive evidence for humans settling in North America much earlier than conventionally thought.

The researchers revealed a wealth of evidence rarely found in one place. It includes fossils with blunt-force fractures, bone flake knives with worn edges, and signs of controlled fire. And thanks to carbon dating analysis on collagen extracted from the mammoth bones, the site also comes with a settled age of 36,250 to 38,900 years old, making it among the oldest known sites left behind by ancient humans in North America.
more
https://phys.org/news/2022-08-mexico...ly-humans.html
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Old 2nd August 2022, 05:20 AM   #22
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One blurb I read was that Africans made it to Brazil before the Asians. The Asians pushed them south, The Tierra del Fuegans show it in their genes. Africa to Brazil could be only 3 days by raft.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:43 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
One blurb I read was that Africans made it to Brazil before the Asians. The Asians pushed them south, The Tierra del Fuegans show it in their genes. Africa to Brazil could be only 3 days by raft.
?

There is no evidence of pre-Columbian transatlantic voyage from Africa to South America.

As for "genes" of the locals, you sure that isn't recent sub-Saharan ancestry from early modern times?
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Old 3rd August 2022, 11:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Just to clarify: the 24 000 yrs date is 'real' years.

Is the other one light years?
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Old 16th November 2022, 12:47 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Also I found this which places humans all the way south to Patagonia ~15 to 14.6 ka:

The idea that humans made it that far south so early doesn't make sense if they only passed the bering strait only well after the Last Glacial Maximum. Either they came some other way, or they started sooner. Remember it is not how fast you can walk, but rather how fast a population spread, which is usually much slower. Unless something was pushing them like lack of resources or war.
Niède Guidon have trying to prove for decades the datings of humans in a brazilian site to be much older than the accepted standard.

I wonder if ultimately they will recognize her work, or it will be an American team that will get a Nobel for evidence humans arrived in the Americas long before the established.
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Old 20th November 2022, 06:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
?

There is no evidence of pre-Columbian transatlantic voyage from Africa to South America.

As for "genes" of the locals, you sure that isn't recent sub-Saharan ancestry from early modern times?
Nobody seems sure of anything nowadays.

I did see pics of the old skull found hear the La Brea tar pits. Looked African to me.-"Precesion" it's called.

"There is no evidence of pre-Columbian transatlantic voyage from Africa to South America." ??? What would you expect, a log raft tied up at the dock? What sign would have survived?

"
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Old 20th November 2022, 06:16 AM   #27
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"Heyerdahl made other voyages to demonstrate the possibility of contact between widely separated ancient peoples, notably the Ra II expedition of 1970, when he sailed from the west coast of Africa to Barbados in a papyrus reed boat. "
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