Unconstitutional actions by fededal police in Portland?

jimbob · 16th July 2020, 12:11 AM

I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional?

https://twitter.com/sparrowmedia/sta...36911307218948

Quote:

The Sparrow Project
@sparrowmedia
Militarized Federal Agents from a patchwork of outside agencies have begun policing Portland (in rented minivans vans) without the explicit approval of the mayor, the state, or local municipalities. This is what that looks like in practice:

There seems no way of identifying the officers - no ID numbers that I could see, just "Police" patches.

lomiller · 16th July 2020, 05:55 AM

It's been happening in other cities for a while
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551

Many have no business doing actual police work

Quote:

Eagle-eyed protesters have identified some of them as belonging to Bureau of Prisons’ riot police units from Texas, but others remain a mystery.

jimbob · 16th July 2020, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

It's been happening in other cities for a while
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551

Many have no business doing actual police work

Nasty.

Aridas · 17th July 2020, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional?

Honestly? I rather doubt that the Constitution actually weighs in on the matter in a directly meaningful way.

With that said - such tactics are despicable and should have no place in America and being used against American citizens. They would seem to be far more in line with terrorizing potential dissidents in occupied territory than they do with upholding society at home.

timhau · 17th July 2020, 03:17 AM

Reminds me of Crimea...

Jack by the hedge · 17th July 2020, 03:32 AM

What they're doing may be lawful or not, IDK, but when people have no way to tell whether a person is being arrested or kidnapped, that's pretty clearly a basic problem which ought to be addressed and I can't see why it shouldn't be. If these people are exercising the authority of police officers, they ought to be clearly identifiable as such.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th July 2020, 04:48 AM

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

timhau · 17th July 2020, 05:36 AM

As always, satirists were ahead of reality.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th July 2020, 10:53 AM

A definition of fascism I've see:

Quote:

In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/074.html

We're seeing the tactics of our endless wars on terror brought to the streets of America to crush dissent here just as we attempted to crush dissent abroad. Or in this example, border patrol secret police are using the tactics of terror they learned against S. American immigrants, but on the streets of Portland.

For decades, our federal government has been practicing the finer details of violent suppression abroad. Now Americans are seeing the same masterful application directed towards them.

Donal · 17th July 2020, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

They are saving their ammo for real tyranny. Y'know, like healthcare.

carlitos · 17th July 2020, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

This becomes quite clear when listening to the Alex Jones show in the Trump era. The guy has spent years warning about the coming police state, and now he defends all of this nonsense.

Thanks to the OP and others that pointed me to the articles - I hadn't seen this topic in the news somehow. Just read an article in Vice. I'd like more verification of the claims, but man this seems shady as hell. This kind of federal "law enforcement" activity isn't much of a progression from having ICE operating in cities, or redefining the "border" to include 2/3 of the USA.

Beerina · 17th July 2020, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Honestly? I rather doubt that the Constitution actually weighs in on the matter in a directly meaningful way.

With that said - such tactics are despicable and should have no place in America and being used against American citizens. They would seem to be far more in line with terrorizing potential dissidents in occupied territory than they do with upholding society at home.

One law blog points out that this amounts to an arrest, apparently they are taken somewhere and questioned, and thus needs probable cause.

jimbob · 17th July 2020, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

One law blog points out that this amounts to an arrest, apparently they are taken somewhere and questioned, and thus needs probable cause.

That was why I thought the 5th had possibly been broken. And some of the attacks on protesters - or even householders might break the 8th as well

Stacyhs · 17th July 2020, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

I've noticed that, too. Where is the outrage from our 'right-wing patriots' when Trump and/or his WH cronies sent U.S. Park Police and National Guard troops to use pepper bombs against peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park so he could have a photo op? Where is the outrage from them when DHS sent in federal troops to Portland, my city, when they were not asked to by either Gov. Brown or Mayor Wheeler? Neither want them here.

varwoche · 17th July 2020, 11:25 AM

It can't happen here. Right? That's what they say at least.

jimbob · 17th July 2020, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I've noticed that, too. Where is the outrage from our 'right-wing patriots' when Trump and/or his WH cronies sent U.S. Park Police and National Guard troops to use pepper bombs against peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park so he could have a photo op? Where is the outrage from them when DHS sent in federal troops to Portland, my city, when they were not asked to by either Gov. Brown or Mayor Wheeler? Neither want them here.

I thought they liked States' Rights

portlandatheist · 17th July 2020, 11:44 AM

This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely.

lomiller · 17th July 2020, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I thought they liked States' Rights

They like it when States have the right to do things they agree with, they don’t like it when States have the right to do things they disagree with.

This is nothing new. Eg. A frequent Republican proposal for Health insurance reform is to allow selling insurance across State lines. The thing is, this is something that would only come into play when the policy didn’t meet the standard mandated by State law. If the policy met State standards, they can register the plan and start selling in that State already. The difference allowing polices to be sold across State lines would make would be that people could buy inferior policies being sold in other States, but not available locally.

IOW it’s nothing but a massive swipe at State power and their ability to regulate their own health insurance standards.

Stacyhs · 17th July 2020, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely.

I remember reading a tweet where it was claimed the injured man had thrown the gas canister at the police and that's why he was shot. The video clearly shows that did not happen. The canister was thrown toward the protester which landed near him. He then rolled it back on the ground from the direction it came. It was directly after that he was shot with the rubber bullet and severely injured requiring face reconstructive surgery.

Trebuchet · 17th July 2020, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely.

Several people in earlier protests lost an eye. I'd bet money that the packaging on that "less lethal" ammo says not to aim at the head, but cops are doing it on purpose.

jond · 17th July 2020, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Several people in earlier protests lost an eye. I'd bet money that the packaging on that "less lethal" ammo says not to aim at the head, but cops are doing it on purpose.

Not cops, Trump’s secret police force. No markings, no one in Portland’s city or state government has any way of knowing who they are, or where they have come from. His acting head of homeland security is here spouting lies and refusing to talk to any city leaders. This is really bad stuff, but no doubt our resident “patriots” think it’s the right way to deal with protesters. (As opposed to how patriots who protest being forced to wear a mask and not be able to get a haircut get treated.)

SuburbanTurkey · 17th July 2020, 12:15 PM

It's a bit of a moot point, since these gestapo types are so heavily armed and in numbers to make any real resistance suicide, but would it even be a crime to resist these people with lethal force?

You basically have non-uniformed people claiming to be cops kidnapping people into unmarked vans. They have been reported to have refused identifying themselves and are arresting people without probable cause.

It would be trivially easy for a bad actor to impersonate these people and kidnap protesters under the pretense of lawful authority.

JoeMorgue · 17th July 2020, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

It would be trivially easy for a bad actor to impersonate these people and kidnap protesters under the pretense of lawful authority.

At this point why even bother? Just become the lawful authority, at least that way you get a dental plan and you can still do the same stuff.

uke2se · 17th July 2020, 01:33 PM

It's fairly pointless to point out right wing hypocrisy in situations like this. Right wingers don't actually care if they are perceived as hypocrites. All that matters is winning, by any means necessary, including unconstitutional or illegal means. Right wingers don't care about principles except for when they can be used as a weapon against the left.

In other words, stop expecting these people to be principled or obey the law.

kookbreaker · 17th July 2020, 01:41 PM

So the folks who gave us Jade Helm & multiple UN takeover conspiracies are noticeably silent about all this.

Its OK, I've been assured that Trump isn't uniquely bad as a US President.

portlandatheist · 17th July 2020, 02:08 PM

Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

rockinkt · 17th July 2020, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

At this point why even bother? Just become the lawful authority, at least that way you get a dental plan and you can still do the same stuff.

Nominated!

Beelzebuddy · 17th July 2020, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional?

Doesn't matter. Portland's within 100 miles of the ocean, that makes it a border, that makes this border enforcement, which can't be limited by the Constitution or the terrorists win.

The ACLU's been hammering this klaxon for decades, so far to no avail. But now that it's not just brown people's faces getting eaten maybe people will pay attention.

webfusion · 17th July 2020, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

Skeptic Ginger · 17th July 2020, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

As always, satirists were ahead of reality.

That looks like a fun website, in a sad sort of way.

Skeptic Ginger · 17th July 2020, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

This is what I don't understand. So Trump has ordered federal troops to take the law into their own hands without the consent of the police?

They are using the ruse it is to protect federal buildings and property.

Someone needs to limit the territory they are allowed to act in or something. The idea the federal government moving into cities in an aggressive act like this should scare the **** out of everyone.

Does Trump have an army of ICE, prison guards, federal agents and whoever is on his side to outgun the army and national guards?

I don't think so but what about an army of Trumpers slipping into positions like this?

When we were marching against GW's Iraq War these unmarked goons were here in Seattle. They were working with police.

Skeptic Ginger · 17th July 2020, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

That has a familiar ring to it.

First they came for the other guys, but I wasn't an other guy so I said nothing...

blutoski · 17th July 2020, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

My impression is that they don't consider this to be an example of tyranny.

"Tyranny" looks like The Turner Diaries. Uppity negroes under the authority of the president who was appointed by the UN go house to house taking away white people's guns.

webfusion · 17th July 2020, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That has a familiar ring to it.

First they came for the other guys, but I wasn't an other guy so I said nothing...

Are you saying that the residents of this area have something to fear from these Federal agents making the effort to stop the mayhem around their homes & businesses that has been in evidence for weeks?

Skeptic Ginger · 17th July 2020, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Are you saying that the residents of this area have something to fear from these Federal agents making the effort to stop the mayhem around their homes & businesses that has been in evidence for weeks?

Yeah, I do.

First, they aren't stopping any mayhem as far as I can see.

Second, you have a police department. You have a mayor and a governor. They had the option of bringing in the National Guard.

Now all of a sudden you have the POTUS bringing in his own police force, unnamed, unidentified. Did Trump or said unnamed department get called in? Did they even consult with the area government?

Do you really want unnamed police there hauling off whoever they suspect?

It looks like they feel they have the right to arrest anyone. How do you know they aren't simply arresting Trump's political opponents? Or reporters? You just have faith?

What the hell is wrong with identifying themselves? What is that even about?

pgwenthold · 17th July 2020, 06:27 PM

Amazing how the people of Portland are so desperately concerned about graffiti on the walls of federal buildings and are grateful that federal officers have come to put a stop to it.

Beelzebuddy · 17th July 2020, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Amazing how the people of Portland are so desperately concerned about graffiti on the walls of federal buildings and are grateful that federal officers have come to put a stop to it.

And that those same federal officers are so eager to lend assistance they've absentmindedly misplaced their identification in their rush to respond, and the unmarked vans were the only ones they could find the keys to.

Stacyhs · 17th July 2020, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

Citation, please, because I sincerely doubt your claim is true. N. Portland is a predominantly black area. I don't think they're happy that the government has sent in federal troops to arrest BLM protesters.

rdwight · 17th July 2020, 06:42 PM

Not a huge amount of info on this until last couple days. What possible reason would people agree with this? First off, yes, people should be able to defend themselves by any means when unmarked, and unannounced armed men try to detain and shove them into an unmarked van. I don't care if the ones detained were clearly criminals, this sort of enforcement is a scare tactic no one should agree with. Don't have the energy to research more on this tonight but this opinion stands no matter the circumstances or underlying reasoning.

varwoche · 17th July 2020, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

In other words, people are saying.

16th July 2020, 12:11 AM	#1
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,798	Unconstitutional actions by fededal police in Portland? I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional? https://twitter.com/sparrowmedia/sta...36911307218948 Quote: The Sparrow Project @sparrowmedia Militarized Federal Agents from a patchwork of outside agencies have begun policing Portland (in rented minivans vans) without the explicit approval of the mayor, the state, or local municipalities. This is what that looks like in practice: There seems no way of identifying the officers - no ID numbers that I could see, just "Police" patches.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

16th July 2020, 05:55 AM	#2
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,367	It's been happening in other cities for a while https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551 Many have no business doing actual police work Quote: Eagle-eyed protesters have identified some of them as belonging to Bureau of Prisons’ riot police units from Texas, but others remain a mystery.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

16th July 2020, 08:14 AM	#3
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,798	Originally Posted by lomiller It's been happening in other cities for a while https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551 Many have no business doing actual police work Nasty.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th July 2020, 02:17 AM	#4
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,449	Originally Posted by jimbob I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional? Honestly? I rather doubt that the Constitution actually weighs in on the matter in a directly meaningful way. With that said - such tactics are despicable and should have no place in America and being used against American citizens. They would seem to be far more in line with terrorizing potential dissidents in occupied territory than they do with upholding society at home.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

17th July 2020, 03:17 AM	#5
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,466	Reminds me of Crimea...
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

17th July 2020, 03:32 AM	#6
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,865	What they're doing may be lawful or not, IDK, but when people have no way to tell whether a person is being arrested or kidnapped, that's pretty clearly a basic problem which ought to be addressed and I can't see why it shouldn't be. If these people are exercising the authority of police officers, they ought to be clearly identifiable as such.

17th July 2020, 04:48 AM	#7
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,962	I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles. Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th July 2020 at 05:41 AM. Reason: Fixed typos

17th July 2020, 05:36 AM	#8
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,466	As always, satirists were ahead of reality.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

17th July 2020, 10:53 AM	#9
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,962	A definition of fascism I've see: Quote: In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/074.html We're seeing the tactics of our endless wars on terror brought to the streets of America to crush dissent here just as we attempted to crush dissent abroad. Or in this example, border patrol secret police are using the tactics of terror they learned against S. American immigrants, but on the streets of Portland. For decades, our federal government has been practicing the finer details of violent suppression abroad. Now Americans are seeing the same masterful application directed towards them.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

17th July 2020, 10:59 AM	#10
Donal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,332	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles. Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees. They are saving their ammo for real tyranny. Y'know, like healthcare.
Donal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,332	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

17th July 2020, 11:02 AM	#11
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,786	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles. Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees. This becomes quite clear when listening to the Alex Jones show in the Trump era. The guy has spent years warning about the coming police state, and now he defends all of this nonsense. Thanks to the OP and others that pointed me to the articles - I hadn't seen this topic in the news somehow. Just read an article in Vice. I'd like more verification of the claims, but man this seems shady as hell. This kind of federal "law enforcement" activity isn't much of a progression from having ICE operating in cities, or redefining the "border" to include 2/3 of the USA.

17th July 2020, 11:06 AM	#12
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 30,346	Originally Posted by Aridas Honestly? I rather doubt that the Constitution actually weighs in on the matter in a directly meaningful way. With that said - such tactics are despicable and should have no place in America and being used against American citizens. They would seem to be far more in line with terrorizing potential dissidents in occupied territory than they do with upholding society at home. One law blog points out that this amounts to an arrest, apparently they are taken somewhere and questioned, and thus needs probable cause.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

17th July 2020, 11:10 AM	#13
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,798	Originally Posted by Beerina One law blog points out that this amounts to an arrest, apparently they are taken somewhere and questioned, and thus needs probable cause. That was why I thought the 5th had possibly been broken. And some of the attacks on protesters - or even householders might break the 8th as well
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th July 2020, 11:23 AM	#14
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,007	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles. Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees. I've noticed that, too. Where is the outrage from our 'right-wing patriots' when Trump and/or his WH cronies sent U.S. Park Police and National Guard troops to use pepper bombs against peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park so he could have a photo op? Where is the outrage from them when DHS sent in federal troops to Portland, my city, when they were not asked to by either Gov. Brown or Mayor Wheeler? Neither want them here.

17th July 2020, 11:25 AM	#15
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,426	It can't happen here. Right? That's what they say at least.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

17th July 2020, 11:25 AM	#16
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,798	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I've noticed that, too. Where is the outrage from our 'right-wing patriots' when Trump and/or his WH cronies sent U.S. Park Police and National Guard troops to use pepper bombs against peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park so he could have a photo op? Where is the outrage from them when DHS sent in federal troops to Portland, my city, when they were not asked to by either Gov. Brown or Mayor Wheeler? Neither want them here. I thought they liked States' Rights
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th July 2020, 11:44 AM	#17
portlandatheist Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,610	This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely.

17th July 2020, 11:52 AM	#18
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,367	Originally Posted by jimbob I thought they liked States' Rights They like it when States have the right to do things they agree with, they don’t like it when States have the right to do things they disagree with. This is nothing new. Eg. A frequent Republican proposal for Health insurance reform is to allow selling insurance across State lines. The thing is, this is something that would only come into play when the policy didn’t meet the standard mandated by State law. If the policy met State standards, they can register the plan and start selling in that State already. The difference allowing polices to be sold across State lines would make would be that people could buy inferior policies being sold in other States, but not available locally. IOW it’s nothing but a massive swipe at State power and their ability to regulate their own health insurance standards.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

17th July 2020, 12:00 PM	#19
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,007	Originally Posted by portlandatheist This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely. I remember reading a tweet where it was claimed the injured man had thrown the gas canister at the police and that's why he was shot. The video clearly shows that did not happen. The canister was thrown toward the protester which landed near him. He then rolled it back on the ground from the direction it came. It was directly after that he was shot with the rubber bullet and severely injured requiring face reconstructive surgery.

17th July 2020, 12:05 PM	#20
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,036	Originally Posted by portlandatheist This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely. Several people in earlier protests lost an eye. I'd bet money that the packaging on that "less lethal" ammo says not to aim at the head, but cops are doing it on purpose.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

17th July 2020, 12:13 PM	#21
jond Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Several people in earlier protests lost an eye. I'd bet money that the packaging on that "less lethal" ammo says not to aim at the head, but cops are doing it on purpose. Not cops, Trump’s secret police force. No markings, no one in Portland’s city or state government has any way of knowing who they are, or where they have come from. His acting head of homeland security is here spouting lies and refusing to talk to any city leaders. This is really bad stuff, but no doubt our resident “patriots” think it’s the right way to deal with protesters. (As opposed to how patriots who protest being forced to wear a mask and not be able to get a haircut get treated.)
jond Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,361

17th July 2020, 12:15 PM	#22
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,962	It's a bit of a moot point, since these gestapo types are so heavily armed and in numbers to make any real resistance suicide, but would it even be a crime to resist these people with lethal force? You basically have non-uniformed people claiming to be cops kidnapping people into unmarked vans. They have been reported to have refused identifying themselves and are arresting people without probable cause. It would be trivially easy for a bad actor to impersonate these people and kidnap protesters under the pretense of lawful authority.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th July 2020 at 12:25 PM.

17th July 2020, 12:40 PM	#23
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,662	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey It would be trivially easy for a bad actor to impersonate these people and kidnap protesters under the pretense of lawful authority. At this point why even bother? Just become the lawful authority, at least that way you get a dental plan and you can still do the same stuff.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

17th July 2020, 01:33 PM	#24
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	It's fairly pointless to point out right wing hypocrisy in situations like this. Right wingers don't actually care if they are perceived as hypocrites. All that matters is winning, by any means necessary, including unconstitutional or illegal means. Right wingers don't care about principles except for when they can be used as a weapon against the left. In other words, stop expecting these people to be principled or obey the law.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

17th July 2020, 01:41 PM	#25
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,171	So the folks who gave us Jade Helm & multiple UN takeover conspiracies are noticeably silent about all this. Its OK, I've been assured that Trump isn't uniquely bad as a US President.
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.

17th July 2020, 02:08 PM	#26
portlandatheist Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,610	Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

17th July 2020, 02:33 PM	#27
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,096	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue At this point why even bother? Just become the lawful authority, at least that way you get a dental plan and you can still do the same stuff. Nominated!
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,096	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

17th July 2020, 03:51 PM	#28
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,069	Originally Posted by jimbob I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional? Doesn't matter. Portland's within 100 miles of the ocean, that makes it a border, that makes this border enforcement, which can't be limited by the Constitution or the terrorists win. The ACLU's been hammering this klaxon for decades, so far to no avail. But now that it's not just brown people's faces getting eaten maybe people will pay attention.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,069

17th July 2020, 05:07 PM	#29
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,482	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor. If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,482

17th July 2020, 05:20 PM	#30
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,914	Originally Posted by timhau As always, satirists were ahead of reality. That looks like a fun website, in a sad sort of way.

17th July 2020, 05:30 PM	#31
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,914	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor. This is what I don't understand. So Trump has ordered federal troops to take the law into their own hands without the consent of the police? They are using the ruse it is to protect federal buildings and property. Someone needs to limit the territory they are allowed to act in or something. The idea the federal government moving into cities in an aggressive act like this should scare the **** out of everyone. Does Trump have an army of ICE, prison guards, federal agents and whoever is on his side to outgun the army and national guards? I don't think so but what about an army of Trumpers slipping into positions like this? When we were marching against GW's Iraq War these unmarked goons were here in Seattle. They were working with police.

17th July 2020, 05:32 PM	#32
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,914	Originally Posted by webfusion If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks. That has a familiar ring to it. First they came for the other guys, but I wasn't an other guy so I said nothing...

17th July 2020, 05:54 PM	#33
blutoski Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,369	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. My impression is that they don't consider this to be an example of tyranny. "Tyranny" looks like The Turner Diaries. Uppity negroes under the authority of the president who was appointed by the UN go house to house taking away white people's guns.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

17th July 2020, 06:08 PM	#34
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,482	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger That has a familiar ring to it. First they came for the other guys, but I wasn't an other guy so I said nothing... Are you saying that the residents of this area have something to fear from these Federal agents making the effort to stop the mayhem around their homes & businesses that has been in evidence for weeks?
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,482

17th July 2020, 06:18 PM	#35
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,914	Originally Posted by webfusion Are you saying that the residents of this area have something to fear from these Federal agents making the effort to stop the mayhem around their homes & businesses that has been in evidence for weeks? Yeah, I do. First, they aren't stopping any mayhem as far as I can see. Second, you have a police department. You have a mayor and a governor. They had the option of bringing in the National Guard. Now all of a sudden you have the POTUS bringing in his own police force, unnamed, unidentified. Did Trump or said unnamed department get called in? Did they even consult with the area government? Do you really want unnamed police there hauling off whoever they suspect? It looks like they feel they have the right to arrest anyone. How do you know they aren't simply arresting Trump's political opponents? Or reporters? You just have faith? What the hell is wrong with identifying themselves? What is that even about?