IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd March 2018, 12:45 PM   #1
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
War With Iran inevitable now?

Given National Security Advisors Bolton's obsession with Iran, and his devout belief that Military induced regime change is the only answer, I say yes. All he has to do is convince Trump that going to war with Iran would make him look "Tough" and off we go.
And It will be Vietnam on steroids.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 12:53 PM   #2
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,674
My impression is that Iran has been quietly at war with us for several decades now. And we with them.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:00 PM   #3
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,988
I think war in unlikely:

Too close to the midterms. They don't have time to start a full-scale war before November. Banging the war drums now will probably hurt Republicans at the polls. After November, he'll have far less support.

Trump really likes military people. Those guys will inform him that no matter how belligerent and disruptive Iran gets, it's no pushover. It is much bigger than Iraq, much more (but not perfectly) socially cohesive, and works pretty well with both Russia and China, both of which are far more powerful now than they were in 2003.

We may have been in a semi-cold war with them but an actual "capture territory and displace the government" kind of war is a different thing.

That said, Lord Drumpf is impulsive and contrarian. It would not shock me if he starts some sort of military action (air and naval strikes, encouraging Kurdish forces from Iraq to try to "liberate" Kurdish areas in Iran, that sort of thing), intending for a limited conflict. Who knows where that could lead?

Last edited by crescent; 23rd March 2018 at 01:27 PM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:11 PM   #4
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Connecticut School for Rumpology.
Posts: 5,984
I'm certain the majority of Americans don't understand Iranians are not Arabs. Iranians had nothing to do with 9/11. The Iranian people are not anti-American. Their government is but I'm not exactly proud of my own government at this moment in time either. War with Iran will lower the quality of life for many people more than the war with Iraq even did. It would be a criminal decision if it happened. Iran doesn't want war but they are a proud people. They will react to mistreatment. We have a rich history of mistreating them that their government can use as propaganda. A war with Iran is too scary to contemplate.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:20 PM   #5
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
The military is still reeling from Iraq and Afghanistan. It doesn't matter what Bolton and Trump think. We're not going to war with Iran.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:25 PM   #6
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,901
Even in the worst case scenario, I think the Russian government would certainly intervene and change Trump or his mens' minds. Russia has Iran's back and vice versa.

That is Russian interference I would welcome.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:27 PM   #7
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My impression is that Iran has been quietly at war with us for several decades now.
What has Iran done to or at us in the past 30 years?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:27 PM   #8
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The military is still reeling from Iraq and Afghanistan. It doesn't matter what Bolton and Trump think. We're not going to war with Iran.
You seem to have problems with the idea that the Military cannot make the decision of whether or not we go to war. That is one for the civilian leadership.
I would like to think I am being pessimistic but I am afraid I am not. I think Bolton's ideological fixtation and Trump obsession with being seen as being Tough and Manly will override all else. And disaster will follow.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:28 PM   #9
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Even in the worst case scenario, I think the Russian government would certainly intervene and change Trump or his mens' minds. Russia has Iran's back and vice versa.

That is Russian interference I would welcome.
You beat me to it, on both points.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:29 PM   #10
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think war in unlikely:

Too close to the midterms. They don't have time to start a full-scale war before November. Banging the war drums now will probably hurt Republicans at the polls. After November, he'll have far less support.

Trump really likes military people. Those guys will inform him that no matter how belligerent and disruptive Iran gets, it's no pushover. It is much bigger than Iraq, much more (but not perfectly) socially cohesive, and works pretty well with both Russia and China, both of which are far more powerful now than they were in 2003.

We may have been in a semi-cold war with them but an actual "capture territory and displace the government" kind of war is a different thing.

That said, Lord Drumpf is impulsive and contrarian. It would not shock me if he starts some sort of military action (air and naval strikes, encouraging Kurdish forces from Iraq to try to "liberate" Kurdish areas in Iran, that sort of thing), intending for a limited conflict. Who knows where that could lead?
Limited conflicts have a way of becoming unlimited conflicts.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:30 PM   #11
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,280
During the Bush administration, Seymour Hersh said war with Iran was going to happen any day. Trump cannot manufacture a war without an attack on US or Palestinian Israeli soil.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:30 PM   #12
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You seem to have problems with the idea that the Military cannot make the decision of whether or not we go to war. That is one for the civilian leadership.
I would like to think I am being pessimistic but I am afraid I am not. I think Bolton's ideological fixtation and Trump obsession with being seen as being Tough and Manly will override all else. And disaster will follow.
I think "civilian control of the military" is partially a myth nowadays, but I suspect the Pentagon generals would welcome invading Iran.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:31 PM   #13
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,674
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Limited conflicts have a way of becoming unlimited conflicts.
They also have a way of not becoming unlimited conflicts. The US invasion of Granada did not ultimately engulf the Western Hemisphere in flames of war.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:32 PM   #14
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,901
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What has Iran done to or at us in the past 30 years?
[speculation]revenge bombing of Pan Am 103
[/speculation]

Rolfe and others can set me straight here. But the circumstances to me are ominous.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:34 PM   #15
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
[speculation]revenge bombing of Pan Am 103
[/speculation]

Rolfe and others can set me straight here. But the circumstances to me are ominous.
Ok, well, since then, anything?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:38 PM   #16
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,674
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What has Iran done to or at us in the past 30 years?
https://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/2016/272235.htm
Designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism in 1984, Iran continued its terrorist-related activity in 2016, including support for Hizballah, Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza, and various groups in Syria, Iraq, and throughout the Middle East. Iran used the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps‑Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to implement foreign policy goals, provide cover for intelligence operations, and create instability in the Middle East. Iran has acknowledged the involvement of the IRGC-QF in the conflicts in Iraq and Syria and the IRGC-QF is Iran’s primary mechanism for cultivating and supporting terrorists abroad.

[...]

Since the end of the 2006 Israeli-Hizballah conflict, Iran has supplied Hizballah with thousands of rockets, missiles, and small arms, in direct violation of UN Security Council resolution (UNSCR) 1701. Iran provides the majority of financial support for Hizballah in Lebanon and has trained thousands of its fighters at camps in Iran. Hizballah fighters have been used extensively in Syria to support the Assad regime and in support of operations against ISIS in Iraq. Hizballah also carried out several attacks against Israeli Defense Forces in 2016 along the Lebanese border with Israel.

[...]

Iran has provided weapons, funding, and training to Bahraini militant Shia groups that have conducted attacks on the Bahraini security forces. On January 6, 2016, Bahraini security officials dismantled a terrorist cell, linked to IRGC-QF, planning to carry out a series of bombings throughout the country.

The Iranian government maintains a robust cyberterrorism program and has sponsored cyberattacks against foreign government and private sector entities.

Iran remained unwilling to bring to justice senior al-Qa’ida (AQ) members it continued to detain and has refused to publicly identify the members in its custody. Since at least 2009, Iran has allowed AQ facilitators to operate a core facilitation pipeline through the country, enabling AQ to move funds and fighters to South Asia and Syria.
But hey, they're fighting ISIS, so they've got that going for them. Which is nice.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:40 PM   #17
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,683
Putin will tell Trump to keep his tiny hands off Iran.
__________________
So what are you going to do about it, huh?
What would an intellectual do?
What would Plato do?
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:41 PM   #18
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,988
One hears frequent complaints about Iran's support of Hezbollah, The Assad Government in Syria, Shia militias in Iraq, and separatists in Yemen.

They do all that, I don't see any of it as anywhere near enough provocation to go to war.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:43 PM   #19
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Being friendly with some groups labeled terrorist in the ME is not nearly the same thing as being at war with the US.

Btw...Rolfe's Lockerbie book is now going for $155 cheapest on Amazon!
eta: also found a different link where it's more reasonable. lol
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 23rd March 2018 at 01:48 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:45 PM   #20
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Connecticut School for Rumpology.
Posts: 5,984
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Even in the worst case scenario, I think the Russian government would certainly intervene and change Trump or his mens' minds. Russia has Iran's back and vice versa.

That is Russian interference I would welcome.
The Iranian government believes that in the long run they will be running the show. Iran only works with Russia when their interests are aligned. Iran has shown they would rather live with sanctions than play by others rules.

Iran is not in the Russian's nor anyone's pocket. They are oddly not manipulable. (Anymore ).
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:50 PM   #21
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
The Iranian government believes that in the long run they will be running the show. Iran only works with Russia when their interests are aligned. Iran has shown they would rather live with sanctions than play by others rules.

Iran is not in the Russian's nor anyone's pocket. They are oddly not manipulable. (Anymore ).
Nobody was saying Iran can be manipulated. It's Trump who can be manipulated by Russia. Russia wants to keep Iran around regardless of how fair-weather a friend they may be. The purpose of Iran to Russia is (I'd guess) their potential in having Syria's back.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:54 PM   #22
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,674
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
One hears frequent complaints about Iran's support of Hezbollah, The Assad Government in Syria, Shia militias in Iraq, and separatists in Yemen.

They do all that, I don't see any of it as anywhere near enough provocation to go to war.
I see it as an indication that they're effectively at war already.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Being friendly with some groups labeled terrorist in the ME is not nearly the same thing as being at war with the US.l
Iran is literally arming and funding actual terrorist groups that are actually fighting against US allies throughout the ME. I don't see any other way to describe this other than being at war.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 01:54 PM   #23
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,901
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
The Iranian government believes that in the long run they will be running the show. Iran only works with Russia when their interests are aligned. Iran has shown they would rather live with sanctions than play by others rules.

Iran is not in the Russian's nor anyone's pocket. They are oddly not manipulable. (Anymore ).
Yeah. I don't want to sound like I think they are that close, certainly not like the US and Britain or Israel. I wonder if it's more about history between Iran and the West or their pushing back against perceived cultural imperialism.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:00 PM   #24
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Iran is literally arming and funding actual terrorist groups that are actually fighting against US allies throughout the ME.
Our own State Dept has been doing that, too, tho. It's like terrorism goulash over there.

ETA: and don't forget our "ally" SA, who is the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the history of the world.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 23rd March 2018 at 02:02 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:02 PM   #25
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think "civilian control of the military" is partially a myth nowadays, but I suspect the Pentagon generals would welcome invading Iran.
Nice left wing stereotype of the Military.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:02 PM   #26
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,674
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Our own State Dept has been doing that, too, tho. It's like terrorism goulash over there.
Congratulations. You've finally caught up with the second post in this thread.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:06 PM   #27
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think "civilian control of the military" is partially a myth nowadays, but I suspect the Pentagon generals would welcome invading Iran.
It's totally a myth with the current occupant of the WH. Does anyone think that if Trump ordered a nuclear strike it would be carried out?

The generals don't want anything to do with invading Iran. It would make Iraq look like a skirmish.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:13 PM   #28
logger
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Our own State Dept has been doing that, too, tho. It's like terrorism goulash over there.

ETA: and don't forget our "ally" SA, who is the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the history of the world.
That might be changing.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:19 PM   #29
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,693
Scene, Oval Office, 2020.

Trump: "Well President Smith I wish the best of luck in your term."
Smith: "Oh I'm sure I will."
Trump: "Gotta say I don't think I would be as polite in your shoes. I know I'd be pissed if the guy I relieved left me with wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, and Denmark."
Smith: "We're not a war with Denmark sir.
Trump: "*Wince* You might want to turn on CNN."
Smith: "*Beat* Goddamn Donald."
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:20 PM   #30
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Connecticut School for Rumpology.
Posts: 5,984
Iran used to be called Persia and Persia was a superpower at one time. I believe the government believes it can be again.

What I don't understand is that Iran was conquered by Arabs and the Arabs forcefully converted the population of Iran to Islam (at the end of a sword). When the Iranians took their country back I don't understand why they didn't throw the yoke off of that oppressive religion forced on them. Instead they preach their ayatollah guy is a better Moslem guru than their neighbors mullahs.

Religion is a net negative.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:20 PM   #31
carrps
Thinker
 
carrps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 247
And will the costs all go on the "credit card" like Iraq ... what with a huge cut in government income due to all the tax cuts?
carrps is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:21 PM   #32
Maya22
Graduate Poster
 
Maya22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Teal Town
Posts: 1,446
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Putin will tell Trump to keep his tiny hands off Iran.
I hope so.
__________________
"We take care of our world by taking care of each other — it is as simple and as difficult as that." -Desmond Tutu
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.
Maya22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:21 PM   #33
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,674
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
ETA: and don't forget our "ally" SA, who is the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the history of the world.
It should not surprise you to learn that I consider Saudi Arabia at war as well.

I think you may have lost track of the argument you're trying to rebut. Pointing out that Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism isn't really a big "gotcha!" in this context.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:22 PM   #34
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It should not surprise you to learn that I consider Saudi Arabia at war as well.

I think you may have lost track of the argument you're trying to rebut. Pointing out that Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism isn't really a big "gotcha!" in this context.
You think our ally is at war with us?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:23 PM   #35
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It should not surprise you to learn that I consider Saudi Arabia at war as well.

I think you may have lost track of the argument you're trying to rebut. Pointing out that Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism isn't really a big "gotcha!" in this context.
Is there a country you think we're not at war with?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:28 PM   #36
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,693
To answer the specific question, no. I don't think in modern times any war is "inevitable" until hostilities start. The world isn't "The Guns of August" anymore. Things like mobilization can't go so far along they can't be pulled back anymore.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:28 PM   #37
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Scene, Oval Office, 2020.

Trump: "Well President Smith I wish the best of luck in your term."
Smith: "Oh I'm sure I will."
Trump: "Gotta say I don't think I would be as polite in your shoes. I know I'd be pissed if the guy I relieved left me with wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, and Denmark."
Smith: "We're not a war with Denmark sir.
Trump: "*Wince* You might want to turn on CNN."
Smith: "*Beat* Goddamn Donald."
CNN? CNN??! What kind of half-assed dystopian vision is it, where Trump no longer relies on FOX?
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:28 PM   #38
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,901
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Iran used to be called Persia and Persia was a superpower at one time. I believe the government believes it can be again.

What I don't understand is that Iran was conquered by Arabs and the Arabs forcefully converted the population of Iran to Islam (at the end of a sword). When the Iranians took their country back I don't understand why they didn't throw the yoke off of that oppressive religion forced on them. Instead they preach their ayatollah guy is a better Moslem guru than their neighbors mullahs.

Religion is a net negative.
Also, the Mongols centuries later conquered Persia and the new Mongol ruler of the Persian Ilkhanate and the rulers just above him in Central Asia adopted Islam--from the people they conquered.

Indeed weird.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:30 PM   #39
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,574
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is there a country you think we're not at war with?
We've always been at war with ____________.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2018, 02:32 PM   #40
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is there a country you think we're not at war with?
Russia, obvioualy.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:49 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.