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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 26th July 2020, 12:12 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So, arm-chair warrior reporting then? Got it.
It seems like you are interested in this situation enough to post about it. Do you have any ideas to actually reduce the violence?

I believe that the Feds should go home, but they can't abandon the FSP officers who will remain behind to attacks. If there is a serious reduction in violence, they will draw down their forces, and go home.

Mayor Wheeler has the ability to halt the violence at the Courthouse immediately, but chooses not to. If he set up a setback zone with strong fencing like the ones the Feds recently set up, it would be a lot harder for those protesters who want to engage in violence, and the DHS officers to attack each other.

I would like to challenge you to make a real response to ways to reduce the violence. Not grandstanding, or one liners, or solutions you know would never happen. Either serious ideas to reduce the violence, or a declaration that you would not want to see the violence end.
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:20 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Great ideas. Another idea that I think would help is de-anonymization. I think being anonymous makes it easier to perpetrate violence and makes it easier to be a victim of violence. I think the protesters would be less inclined to hurt police that looked like identifiable people and not stormtroopers. The same thing goes for the protesters. With outbursts of violence in previous years, there was talk about anti-masking laws for the protesters. We are in the middle of a pandemic so obviously that wouldn't be appropriate right now but in non-pandemic times, I think it would be better for both police and protesters to show their faces. Protesters and police alike do not want to be seen beating people or other misbehavior, they want to hide behind their uniforms, masks, or black umbrellas.

Another thought that is more anecdotal: It seems like the very large protests are peaceful. Nobody has been arrested at Revolution Hall or Pioneer square that I'm aware of. Nobody was arrested at the women's march. The large protests against the Iraq war were peaceful and uneventful. The protests in my neighborhood have been uneventful for the most part. When the moms and dads showed up downtown, things calmed down. It is the 300-500 size protests that get crazy.

You just gotta love the gaslighting in this thread: Violence and mayhem? what are you talking about? Check out the calm and serene situation at the Justice Center downtown in this video!
Thank you. I agree with the identification law, but there would be a long legal battle to get that achieved.

I have one simple solution. She the city of Portland to require them to put up fencing of the same durability or better than the ones that the Feds put up. This would make it much harder for the Feds to justify using tear gas if the first set of fences is not breached. Plus the new design can withstand being set on fire.

That's it. It would force both sides to deescalate, and would isolate those going out of their way to still be violent.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:00 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find 24+ minute vlogs take forever to get to the point.

Care to suggest the highlights in a line or two?
Not really, no. It's too involved for that and there's a lot of nuance about the rights of federally apponited officers to arrest under state laws and their responsibilities when they do.

The man's a qualified lawyer, licenced in multiple states and in DC. He states what he needs to in about as concise a way as is possible given the legal complexity of the situation.

In short, 24 minutes is about as long as the TLDR would take. Any attempt by a layman from a different country (i.e. me) to distill it down would be too fraught with error to be useful, sorry.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:04 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post

The innocent being revealed to the public before conviction?! A terrible state of affairs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perp_walk
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:33 AM   #405
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Hoverboarder just keeps making more and more claims as "evidence" of his previous claims. Typical.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:56 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The innocent being revealed to the public before conviction?! A terrible state of affairs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perp_walk
Well.. they can't be secret police if people know who they are.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:03 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
... 1. Start dialogue between the protesters and the Feds onsite A daily hour long Zoom call initiated by the Feds should talk about strategies to reduce violence, and grievances from protesters...
I can't see this gaining much traction since most people who want to protest against racist violence in the police won't be interested in the Feds, will have zero desire to talk to their spokesmen and will just wish they weren't there.

Again, as I said upthread, most protesters believe they are there exercising their moral and lawful rights, police think they are restoring order when they perceive a protest getting unruly and most protesters then see what looks like the police attacking their right to protest, which they feel justified in resisting. Mingling uniformed, non-threatening, non-riot police into crowds before there's any trouble works elsewhere but there's a long way to backpedal before that could be tried.

Wishing that rioters would sit down for a coffee and a chat with the ED-209 killer robots from Robocop is starting at the wrong place. An end to confrontation would be more useful, though with a crowd that's learned to expect a fight night after night it may be that the cops just not turning up wouldn't work out. Though when one side has all the organisation, training and discipline and the other is just whoever turns up, any deliberate change in tactics is going to have to come from the police. Perhaps we had better just pray for rain. Several cold nights with lashing rain is pretty much guaranteed to take the fight out of any such confrontation and might allow a reset.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:39 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
So they can be targeted for vigilante justice?

Maybe whoever doxxed them are the ACAB types we wish them harm?

I'm not sure, but I doubt it was because the doxxers was hoping the community would visit them and their families to show appreciation for their work.
Can you point to any evidence at protests in other cities where the police who were properly identified were subject to vigilante justice? Can you provide a reason why only fed goons who do not wish to be identified would be subject to vigilante justice? If they are employing legal methods for a legal purpose I see no reason for them, or their non-participating leaders, to be ashamed of it.

Just to be clear, is it your opinion that, in a country that prides itself on its freedoms, constitution, and Bill of Rights, the activities of the federal government in Portland is both legal and acceptable?
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:08 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post

Just to be clear, is it your opinion that, in a country that prides itself on its freedoms, constitution, and Bill of Rights, the activities of the federal government in Portland is both legal and acceptable?
I won't go broke betting that the feds actions are legal.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:26 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I won't go broke betting that the feds actions are legal.
Says a lot about how “free” your country really is.

Can you say “Police State”? I knew you could.

ETA: I would still like Bogative to respond.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:40 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Just to be clear, is it your opinion that, in a country that prides itself on its freedoms, constitution, and Bill of Rights, the activities of the federal government in Portland is both legal and acceptable?
What actions are we even talking about? Be specific. What exactly do you think they did, and what evidence do you have that they did it?
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:02 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I won't go broke betting that the feds actions are legal.
I think you're right. It would be quite astonishing if whoever could be held to account for it later had failed to make sure they had absolutely clear "rules of engagement" before they were deployed.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:02 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What actions are we even talking about? Be specific. What exactly do you think they did, and what evidence do you have that they did it?
Discussed in much detail in this thread. In fact it is the title of the thread. If you cannot follow the discussion I don’t think anyone can help you.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:22 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What actions are we even talking about? Be specific. What exactly do you think they did, and what evidence do you have that they did it?
Well there looks to be quite a bit against the 4th Amendment.

Quite possibly the first and fifth as well
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:40 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Well there looks to be quite a bit against the 4th Amendment.

Quite possibly the first and fifth as well
That's the exact opposite of specific.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:42 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Discussed in much detail in this thread.
Not with any real evidence, it hasn't.
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Old 26th July 2020, 08:02 AM   #417
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And oh, the irony! Guess what argument the Democrat Governor of Oregon tried to use to get rid of the feds? Yep, states' rights is suddenly getting respect from liberals.

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Old 26th July 2020, 08:09 AM   #418
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And oh look, conservatives are as hypocritical about that as everything else they claim to value.
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Old 26th July 2020, 08:27 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
And oh look, conservatives are as hypocritical about that as everything else they claim to value.
I believe in states' rights, but at the same time the federal government also has the right to protect its property and detain people who have committed crimes. Which is why Oregon got shot down in court with this argument. Now that said, if Trump were to try to go into Chicago on the basis of the murder rate, that would be clearly overstepping his bounds.

In short, take the courthouse out of the equation and the feds would and should be out of there in a heartbeat.
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Old 26th July 2020, 08:30 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And oh, the irony! Guess what argument the Democrat Governor of Oregon tried to use to get rid of the feds? Yep, states' rights is suddenly getting respect from liberals.

When have liberals been against states’ rights?
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Old 26th July 2020, 08:42 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I believe in states' rights, but at the same time the federal government also has the right to protect its property and detain people who have committed crimes. Which is why Oregon got shot down in court with this argument. Now that said, if Trump were to try to go into Chicago on the basis of the murder rate, that would be clearly overstepping his bounds.
Oh, no no, I still care very deeply about this principle I'm mocking the abandonment of. It's just in this one case where it benefits my party I'm willing to rationalize an exception. And probably any others that arise. But when a Democrat is in charge, you better believe I'll still be a staunch opponent of federal overreach!

Quote:
In short, take the courthouse out of the equation and the feds would and should be out of there in a heartbeat.
They would not be, and you know it.
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Old 26th July 2020, 09:11 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Hoverboarder just keeps making more and more claims as "evidence" of his previous claims. Typical.
Many people here are selectively ignoring anything that doesn't support the narrative they want reality to be.

You have hours of video of protesters engaging in violence, and people claiming "there are no violent protests."

Like this:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There are no riots in this whole damn country.

There are a lot of peaceful protests. There are a few idiots smashing windows. There are a few idiots smashing storefronts and looting a few stores.
HOLY COW, that's a pretty nice bubble world you got going on there!


You even have video of protesters publically supporting the violence from the protesters, and people just dismiss it as 'fake news.'

I wanted to talk about things going on in reality land, and ways to actually make it better. Instead you have a lot of people more interested in discussing a selective and false reality that fits their biases and worldview.

People who put mental blocks up to protect their own worldview view and sense of justice is extremely common. Religion is built on it. However, I believe that the more that you are able to actively work to recognize your own biases, and look at evidence you previously would have ignored, the stronger your rationality becomes..

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Old 26th July 2020, 09:22 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
HOLY COW, that's a pretty nice bubble world you got going on there!
You even have video of protesters publically supporting the violence from the protesters, and people just dismiss it as 'fake news.'

I wanted to talk to talk about things going on in reality land, and ways to actually make it better. Instead you have a lot of people more interested in discussing a selective and false reality that fits their biases and worldview.

People who put mental blocks up to protect their own worldview view and sense of justice is extremely common. Religion is built on it. However, I believe that the more that you are able to actively work to recognize your own biases, and look at evidence you previously would have ignored, the stronger your rationality becomes..
What do you think is a more accurate descriptor of what is happening on a large scale: Riots or protests?
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Old 26th July 2020, 09:36 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I can't see this gaining much traction since most people who want to protest against racist violence in the police won't be interested in the Feds, will have zero desire to talk to their spokesmen and will just wish they weren't there.

Again, as I said upthread, most protesters believe they are there exercising their moral and lawful rights, police think they are restoring order when they perceive a protest getting unruly and most protesters then see what looks like the police attacking their right to protest, which they feel justified in resisting. Mingling uniformed, non-threatening, non-riot police into crowds before there's any trouble works elsewhere but there's a long way to backpedal before that could be tried.

Wishing that rioters would sit down for a coffee and a chat with the ED-209 killer robots from Robocop is starting at the wrong place. An end to confrontation would be more useful, though with a crowd that's learned to expect a fight night after night it may be that the cops just not turning up wouldn't work out. Though when one side has all the organisation, training and discipline and the other is just whoever turns up, any deliberate change in tactics is going to have to come from the police. Perhaps we had better just pray for rain. Several cold nights with lashing rain is pretty much guaranteed to take the fight out of any such confrontation and might allow a reset.
I don't see much downside to dialogue. In my view, nearly all violence occurs because something went wrong before it. From wars, the to fights at school. Some of that is problems in the structure of our society, and some of it is dialogue. Since the structure of our society is changed by dialogue, it is one of the most important things for society to do.

If the Feds set up an hour long Zoom call to discuss the violence at the Courthouse in Portland, I think you would be surprised in the number of people that would join. It very likely would be more than the meeting could handle even if only a small number of people were joining.


Things have escalated FAR too much and for too long for a simple Zoom call to make any difference in stopping the violence, but it could highlight ways and strategies to make it less violent.

The absolute biggest thing to reduce violence now is to increase the distance between the protesters and the Feds. It is also a policy that is hard to justify opposing unless you actively support the violence from continuing.

Serious pressure should be put on Mayor Wheeler, which likely would include a lawsuit that would require him to allow fire proof fencing to be put up with as good or better durability than the fencing the Feds put up to separate the protesters and the Feds. That would make it much harder for the Feds to justify using less lethal weapons against the protesters who did not breach the first set of fencing, and it would isolate the more violent group of protesters. Set up clearly defined areas where less lethal weapons would be used against those who choose to go there to instigate violence, and It would make it much easier to selectively use less than lethal weapons against those who were clearly making a choice to have it used against them.
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:01 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What do you think is a more accurate descriptor of what is happening on a large scale: Riots or protests?
This is what I had to say about that question in another thread
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:06 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What do you think is a more accurate descriptor of what is happening on a large scale: Riots or protests?
Peaceful protests absolutely. That is why I think it is sad that the few violent ones get so much media coverage since it skews the view of what is going on, and I believe it fails to adequately fails to bring attention to the actual meaningful calls for social justice change.

Beyond harming the BLM movement, probably the biggest affect of the violent protests is helping Trump to distract from his many failings. Those violent protesters are doing more to support Trump, than tens of thousands of rabid MAGA fans could ever do.

I believe that pretending that the violent protests don't exist is a self defeating defense of the peaceful ones. The best way to support the BLM cause in this situation I think, is for the peaceful protesters and supporters to meaningfully distance themselves from the violent ones, and to ideally take steps to prevent the violence.

I saw a video that decried the violence in the Courthouse as hijacking the BLM movement and message, and than went on to blame all of the violence on White Nationalists who had dressed in black and infiltrated the crowd. That did not make sense. If all of the people who were causing destruction were White Nationalists, why were the protesters standing aside and cheering those tearing down fences and starting fires?

I believe that it is to the benefit of those supporting the protesters to take honest and realistic steps to reduce the violence from the small portion of protesters who are engaging in violence, and getting a disproportionate amount of attention. Even though that would significantly reduce the amount of abuse of force videos that could be used for propaganda purposes, it would put more focus on actual solutions to racial inequities and social change. Since as many people have noted, Police barely have to attend the larger peaceful protests, since the focus of those protests is not on instigating violence, but on actually promoting racial justice.

I would like to see a Change.org petition that asks media companies to make a pledge to cover peaceful protests with the same amount of time of media coverage that they give to the violent ones

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Old 26th July 2020, 11:04 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Can you point to any evidence at protests in other cities where the police who were properly identified were subject to vigilante justice? Can you provide a reason why only fed goons who do not wish to be identified would be subject to vigilante justice? If they are employing legal methods for a legal purpose I see no reason for them, or their non-participating leaders, to be ashamed of it.

Just to be clear, is it your opinion that, in a country that prides itself on its freedoms, constitution, and Bill of Rights, the activities of the federal government in Portland is both legal and acceptable?
If I can infer a follow up. I believe that the primary reason for people asking for identification, is to have a process of accountability for abuse of force. To not just decry an unnamed police force when they break the law, but hold specific individuals accountable. This not only gives those victims who say, have their hands broken for asking a question and skulls fractured from rubber bullets, a path to justice for the crimes committed against them, it would remove a wall of impunity for the Feds onsite. By having a process that they know could hold them personally accountable for any crimes that they commit.

At the DHS press conference the other day, they noted that these uniforms and lack of name badges are the standard issue for CPB officers on the border due to the threat of the Cartels there. Cartels who would have no moral problem in kidnapping officer's families, and very slowly cutting them to pieces, if the officers do not follow their demands.

The officers were not trained for this mission, but mayor Wheeler has consistently refused calls to protect the officers there, and deescalate the situation. He let them know that they were on their own from the attacks against them. People often site Trump's approval for sending DHS to the site, but it was FAR more of Mayor Wheelers decision. Mayor Wheeler set up the exact situation where the violence was allowed to fester, and required the Feds to defend themselves, than faked mock outrage with a staged tear gas photo op. As far as accountability for the violence goes, he is the first one that should be put on trial. Not to say that any Feds who commit illegal acts of violence should not be held accountable, but it is important to remember that Wheeler purposefully set up the situation for it to happen, and can immediately stop the violence at any time that he chooses to do so. Wheeler bears every bit of responsibility if not more for the rubber bullet that shattered the protesters skull as the Federal agent that fired it.

This mission is not the same as the border though, and that is an even greater reason to require the officers on site to be identified, and held accountable for their actions. Identification could put themselves and their families at risk for death threats, and would likely require a long legal fight. However, it is critical for legal liability when public servents are taking actions that could lead to the serious injury or death against those who they have a legal responsibility to protect, and who have the legal right to protest. Even when some of those protesters break the law, there are others around them that are legally expressing a first amendment right to protest.

There may be a way to move forward with accountability identification that would not put the officers and their families at risk of death threats. Identification numbers would at least personally identify those who were engaging in illegal abuses of force. While not perfect, it likely could be implemented soon, and would take away at least some of the impunity of annonimity. I believe that identification badges with names should be required though, but it would likely take longer to be enacted.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:41 AM   #428
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Good to see the protestors falling so neatly into the trap Trump has set for them.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-agents-police

At least it changes the narrative from the people on the right being stupid - people on the left are obviously at least as stupid, because turning on the feds will only enhance Trump's claim to be the law & order guy, and will increase his support levels.

Welcome to the United States, and be aware, Dumb and Dumber was a documentary.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:47 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Good to see the protestors falling so neatly into the trap Trump has set for them.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-agents-police

At least it changes the narrative from the people on the right being stupid - people on the left are obviously at least as stupid, because turning on the feds will only enhance Trump's claim to be the law & order guy, and will increase his support levels.

Welcome to the United States, and be aware, Dumb and Dumber was a documentary.
Wouldn't it be sad if this was the reason that Trump was re-elected? The people who were already voting against Trump will likely see little movement from this, but the independents and moderate Republicans who see Democratic mayors site ideally by as chaos engulfs their city might be persuaded to hold their noses and vote for Trump.

Certainly the best thing that has happened for Trump in years.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:49 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Many people here are selectively ignoring anything that doesn't support the narrative they want reality to be.

You have hours of video of protesters engaging in violence, and people claiming "there are no violent protests."

Like this:

HOLY COW, that's a pretty nice bubble world you got going on there!

....
I believe it was mentioned upthread but essentially by this definition a bar brawl is a riot.

And since when is everyone interviewed a spokesperson for the whole? I've heard many BLM people interviewed saying this crap is doing nothing but taking away from the movement.

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Old 26th July 2020, 11:53 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Wouldn't it be sad if this was the reason that Trump was re-elected? The people who were already voting against Trump will likely see little movement from this, but the independents and moderate Republicans who see Democratic mayors site ideally by as chaos engulfs their city might be persuaded to hold their noses and vote for Trump.

Certainly the best thing that has happened for Trump in years.
Got any evidence of this fear-mongering success?
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:58 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
If I can infer a follow up. I believe that the primary reason for people asking for identification, is to have a process of accountability for abuse of force. To not just decry an unnamed police force when they break the law, but hold specific individuals accountable. This not only gives those victims who say, have their hands broken for asking a question and skulls fractured from rubber bullets, a path to justice for the crimes committed against them, it would remove a wall of impunity for the Feds onsite. By having a process that they know could hold them personally accountable for any crimes that they commit.

At the DHS press conference the other day, they noted that these uniforms and lack of name badges are the standard issue for CPB officers on the border due to the threat of the Cartels there. Cartels who would have no moral problem in kidnapping officer's families, and very slowly cutting them to pieces, if the officers do not follow their demands.

The officers were not trained for this mission, but mayor Wheeler has consistently refused calls to protect the officers there, and deescalate the situation. He let them know that they were on their own from the attacks against them. People often site Trump's approval for sending DHS to the site, but it was FAR more of Mayor Wheelers decision. Mayor Wheeler set up the exact situation where the violence was allowed to fester, and required the Feds to defend themselves, than faked mock outrage with a staged tear gas photo op. As far as accountability for the violence goes, he is the first one that should be put on trial. Not to say that any Feds who commit illegal acts of violence should not be held accountable, but it is important to remember that Wheeler purposefully set up the situation for it to happen, and can immediately stop the violence at any time that he chooses to do so. Wheeler bears every bit of responsibility if not more for the rubber bullet that shattered the protesters skull as the Federal agent that fired it.

This mission is not the same as the border though, and that is an even greater reason to require the officers on site to be identified, and held accountable for their actions. Identification could put themselves and their families at risk for death threats, and would likely require a long legal fight. However, it is critical for legal liability when public servents are taking actions that could lead to the serious injury or death against those who they have a legal responsibility to protect, and who have the legal right to protest. Even when some of those protesters break the law, there are others around them that are legally expressing a first amendment right to protest.

There may be a way to move forward with accountability identification that would not put the officers and their families at risk of death threats. Identification numbers would at least personally identify those who were engaging in illegal abuses of force. While not perfect, it likely could be implemented soon, and would take away at least some of the impunity of annonimity. I believe that identification badges with names should be required though, but it would likely take longer to be enacted.
A very rational analysis and opinion. Thank you. I have some minor quibbles but they are not really worth posting.

It raises a new question in my mind though. Why use CBP personnel who are not trained and equipped for action against large numbers of US citizens? Surely national guard who do have the training would be more suitable.
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Old 26th July 2020, 12:47 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Can you point to any evidence at protests in other cities where the police who were properly identified were subject to vigilante justice? Can you provide a reason why only fed goons who do not wish to be identified would be subject to vigilante justice? If they are employing legal methods for a legal purpose I see no reason for them, or their non-participating leaders, to be ashamed of it.
It's not only "fed goons" replacing name badges with alphanumeric characters it's also the Portland Police Department, as seen in the article I linked to. Both law enforcement agencies have explained why their personnel are not displaying name badges. They are doing that for the safety of their officers – which I agree is necessary for the current situation. I don't think shameful behavior has anything to do with it.

Quote:
Just to be clear, is it your opinion that, in a country that prides itself on its freedoms, constitution, and Bill of Rights, the activities of the federal government in Portland is both legal and acceptable?
Yes and yes. If the City of Portland would allow the police to do their job and push back against Vanilla ISIS, we wouldn't be discussing the issue.
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:19 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Wouldn't it be sad if this was the reason that Trump was re-elected?
Horrifying rather than sad - it would mean he and his goon squad of sycophants managed to get the one thing right that mattered.
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:21 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
It's not only "fed goons" replacing name badges with alphanumeric characters it's also the Portland Police Department, as seen in the article I linked to. Both law enforcement agencies have explained why their personnel are not displaying name badges. They are doing that for the safety of their officers – which I agree is necessary for the current situation. I don't think shameful behavior has anything to do with it.

Yes and yes. If the City of Portland would allow the police to do their job and push back against Vanilla ISIS, we wouldn't be discussing the issue.
Goons are goons. Feds, local cops, the results are the same.

The city determines the role of their police force. They do not “allow” their police to do their job. They determine what that job actually is. If the city decides that it is not the job of their police to “push back against Vanilla ISIS” it is not the role of any other level of government to override that. Your federal government has no place in determining how local police forces operate.

If the city will “not allow” the Portland Police Department to perform this role how is it that you claim that they are actually performing it? is their involvement intentionally incognito so that they cannot be identified?

Can you explain why government goons fear for their safety in Portland, but the riot control forces in all other cities in recent months wore identification and were not afraid of being identified? There is, without question, something going on in Portland that federal authorities see a need to conceal.

Your defence of government actions in Portland has too many gaps in it to be viable. You need a rewrite.
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:33 PM   #436
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These walls of half-truths are just infuriating. You keep begging the question that the federal forces must be there bashing heads and pushing all responsibility for their misdeeds off onto other parties.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
At the DHS press conference the other day, they noted that these uniforms and lack of name badges are the standard issue for CPB officers on the border due to the threat of the Cartels there. Cartels who would have no moral problem in kidnapping officer's families, and very slowly cutting them to pieces, if the officers do not follow their demands.

The officers were not trained for this mission,
They're poorly trained and poorly equipped for the situation, and you think that's okay? As much as you keep describing it as a warzone, Portland is not northern Mexico. The Wall of Moms is not the Cartel. Do the unidentified guards not understand what rights American citizens have, or are they so used to teargassing everyone in sight and kidnapping random people for questioning that they just get all excited and forget themselves? Trick question, actually: the answer to both is they should not be there.

Quote:
but mayor Wheeler has consistently refused calls to protect the officers there, and deescalate the situation. He let them know that they were on their own from the attacks against them. People often site Trump's approval for sending DHS to the site, but it was FAR more of Mayor Wheelers decision. Mayor Wheeler set up the exact situation where the violence was allowed to fester, and required the Feds to defend themselves, than faked mock outrage with a staged tear gas photo op. As far as accountability for the violence goes, he is the first one that should be put on trial. Not to say that any Feds who commit illegal acts of violence should not be held accountable, but it is important to remember that Wheeler purposefully set up the situation for it to happen, and can immediately stop the violence at any time that he chooses to do so. Wheeler bears every bit of responsibility if not more for the rubber bullet that shattered the protesters skull as the Federal agent that fired it.
Mayor Wheeler asked them to leave. He doesn't want them there. The protestors don't want them there. No one wants them there. Providing aid and comfort to what is from his perspective an unwelcome invading force is not likely to result in them leaving voluntarily. The only thing he can do to "immediately stop the violence" is to monitor the federal forces and arrest them as soon as they escalate a potentially violent situation, because THEY are the problem.

Quote:
This mission is not the same as the border though, and that is an even greater reason to require the officers on site to be identified, and held accountable for their actions. Identification could put themselves and their families at risk for death threats, and would likely require a long legal fight. However, it is critical for legal liability when public servents are taking actions that could lead to the serious injury or death against those who they have a legal responsibility to protect, and who have the legal right to protest. Even when some of those protesters break the law, there are others around them that are legally expressing a first amendment right to protest.

There may be a way to move forward with accountability identification that would not put the officers and their families at risk of death threats. Identification numbers would at least personally identify those who were engaging in illegal abuses of force. While not perfect, it likely could be implemented soon, and would take away at least some of the impunity of annonimity. I believe that identification badges with names should be required though, but it would likely take longer to be enacted.
The fastest way to improve accountability is for the federal organizations responsible to cooperate with journalists and local authorities. When documented instances of illegal use of force are provided, produce the individuals responsible to local forces for arrest. Immediately. If they want people to understand that they really are just there to protect federal buildings and they're not there as a show of force, let's see them publicly crack down hardest on their own "rogue elements" before they ask the same of others. You should know that's how trust works, which is why you're demanding it of the protestors with nary a damn word about the cops reining in their thugs.

But they're not going to do that, of course, because they are only there to crack some librul heads and don't give a damn about the pretext of protecting federal property. That's why there's an emphasis on identification - literally no one expects the CBP to cooperate with outside investigations of their staff, but if officers can be identified by name in evidence then it doesn't matter that they were hired by a defunct temp agency sub-contractor of a shell company owned by Erik Prince and only ever on the books as Officer THX1138.

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Old 26th July 2020, 01:39 PM   #437
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All of the videos I have seen that have the initiation of violence in them are like this, where the violence is started by the people in uniform.

This man is speaking. Alright, he's angry, but he's just speaking.

I don't believe it is the protestors that start the majority of the violence.


https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak...e_vietnam_war/
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:43 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Good to see the protestors falling so neatly into the trap Trump has set for them.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-agents-police

At least it changes the narrative from the people on the right being stupid - people on the left are obviously at least as stupid, because turning on the feds will only enhance Trump's claim to be the law & order guy, and will increase his support levels.

Welcome to the United States, and be aware, Dumb and Dumber was a documentary.
from the article:
Quote:
“The fence is the primary way that officers are seeking to de-escalate tension,” he said. “Before the fence was up, we had some violent agitators come up to the courthouse steps, come up to the front door, rip off the plywood and shatter the glass door.
The fence is a great although imperfect de-escalation tool. The feds can't beat people with batons or fire rubber bullets through the fence and the city of Portland wants it taken down which should be obvious to everybody that would only matters worse than they are. I think our mayor and Agent Orange alike are thriving off of this conflict for selfish purposes.
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:44 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
All of the videos I have seen that have the initiation of violence in them are like this, where the violence is started by the people in uniform.

This man is speaking. Alright, he's angry, but he's just speaking.

I don't believe it is the protestors that start the majority of the violence.


https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak...e_vietnam_war/
Of course it is not. Most CBP members took the job because of the opportunity for violence without repercussion. Mostly against Mexicans but they’ll take what they can get
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:30 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Of course it is not. Most CBP members took the job because of the opportunity for violence without repercussion. Mostly against Mexicans but they’ll take what they can get
Given that CBP agents are disproportionately Hispanic, that's an amusing argument to make.
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