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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 26th July 2020, 02:33 PM   #441
Ziggurat
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The protests in Portland seem to me to be an actualization of the definition that democracy is the theory of government that the people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. Portland is going the way of Detroit. It cannot recover from this, not for decades. And that's a damn shame.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:36 PM   #442
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Thinking about the current events in Portland and the protests in Hong Kong last year.

Regarding the Hong Kong protests, the US government passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy ACT In support of the protesters Seems the US government did not like the actions of the Chinese government goons.

When similar protest activities occurred in Portland half a year later they quickly sent in their own government goons.

Now, who does the current US government value more, Hong Kong protesters or US protesters? The hypocrisy reeks.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:40 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Thinking about the current events in Portland and the protests in Hong Kong last year.

Regarding the Hong Kong protests, the US government passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy ACT In support of the protesters Seems the US government did not like the actions of the Chinese government goons.

When similar protest activities occurred in Portland half a year later they quickly sent in their own government goons.

Now, who does the current US government value more, Hong Kong protesters or US protesters? The hypocrisy reeks.
The protests are not remotely similar. You are simply lying.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:40 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that CBP agents are disproportionately Hispanic, that's an amusing argument to make.
Why? The CPB agents are upstanding US citizens. Why would they be sympathetic to illegal entrants who are trying to bypass legitimate immigration procedures. Even racist Trump has black Americans who worship the insanity that comes out of his mouth.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:43 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why? The CPB agents are upstanding US citizens. Why would they be sympathetic to illegal entrants who are trying to bypass legitimate immigration procedures. Even racist Trump has black Americans who worship the insanity that comes out of his mouth.
Hilarious!
You went from racism to whatever in less than a second. What else are you going to come up with?
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:45 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The protests are not remotely similar. You are simply lying.
You are right. The protests in Portland are much more peaceful than those in Hong Kong.

You are certainly lacking in reason when your only response to someone who disagrees with you is to accuse them of lying. But then you are irrevocably stuck to the Republican teat so I forgive your ignorance.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:46 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The protests are not remotely similar. You are simply lying.
Lying is not OK on a sceptic board. Fortunately - this has become the Baader-Meinhof forum.
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Old 26th July 2020, 02:55 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
These walls of half-truths are just infuriating. You keep begging the question that the federal forces must be there bashing heads and pushing all responsibility for their misdeeds off onto other parties.
No, the Feds absolutely do not need to be there and should not be. There are a HUGE list of better options to protect the Courthouse and the people working there from violence, but Mayor Wheeler has blocked all of the requests to deescalate and choose those less violent options.

It is pretty sad how many people have fallen for Wheeler's not too thinly veiled slight of hand. I think it's not because it is hard to recognize, I think it is just that people hate Trump so much that their thick cloud of bias obstructs their view to the reality right in front of them.

The steps needed to get the Feds to stop attack and eventually leave are EXTREMELY SIMPLE. I mean, I am definitely not a Trump fan either. I think he is the absolute worst President that the US has had in all of our 231 years of presidential history, and that he likely could hold that record of worst president for another 200 years.

Still the solution is incredibly simple. How are we this blinded by partisanship?


Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They're poorly trained and poorly equipped for the situation, and you think that's okay? As much as you keep describing it as a warzone, Portland is not northern Mexico. The Wall of Moms is not the Cartel. Do the unidentified guards not understand what rights American citizens have, or are they so used to teargassing everyone in sight and kidnapping random people for questioning that they just get all excited and forget themselves? Trick question, actually: the answer to both is they should not be there.
I do not think the Feds should be there, as we could easily have another force and solution in there.

A question back at you. Since Wheeler has the ability to stop the violence at any time of his choosing, but chooses not to, why do you think that is?

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Mayor Wheeler asked them to leave. He doesn't want them there. The protestors don't want them there. No one wants them there. Providing aid and comfort to what is from his perspective an unwelcome invading force is not likely to result in them leaving voluntarily. The only thing he can do to "immediately stop the violence" is to monitor the federal forces and arrest them as soon as they escalate a potentially violent situation, because THEY are the problem.
If Wheeler set up another baricade, and made sure it was strong enough to withstand attack, and prevented protesters from breaching the first fence, there would be no violence from the Feds at all. He could do that today if he wanted to, but chooses not to.

I understand that he does not want to do that, and have the focus put back on him and the Portland police force.

I get that, but what I don't get is how so many people can be soo gullible to think that Wheeler is serious about wanting to stop the violence when he has consciously chosen to not take the steps to stop it immediately.


Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The fastest way to improve accountability is for the federal organizations responsible to cooperate with journalists and local authorities. When documented instances of illegal use of force are provided, produce the individuals responsible to local forces for arrest. Immediately. If they want people to understand that they really are just there to protect federal buildings and they're not there as a show of force, let's see them publicly crack down hardest on their own "rogue elements" before they ask the same of others. You should know that's how trust works, which is why you're demanding it of the protestors with nary a damn word about the cops reining in their thugs.

But they're not going to do that, of course, because they are only there to crack some librul heads and don't give a damn about the pretext of protecting federal property. That's why there's an emphasis on identification - literally no one expects the CBP to cooperate with outside investigations of their staff, but if officers can be identified by name in evidence then it doesn't matter that they were hired by a defunct temp agency sub-contractor of a shell company owned by Erik Prince and only ever on the books as Officer THX1138.
OK, cool story.

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Old 26th July 2020, 02:55 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Hilarious!
You went from racism to whatever in less than a second. What else are you going to come up with?
Did I now . “Whatever” encompasses a world of possibilities. Those CPB goons in Portland do have a propensity for unjustified violence. If you want to see a real example of racism consider this. Maybe they are mindlessly violent because they are Hispanic !

Now, for the record, I do not for a moment think this. But I do know that we have posters here who will grasp my hyperbole in their pit bull-like teeth and I will forever be identified as a racist. Such is the way of small minds. I think there are millions of redneck white dudes in the US who are much more prone to violence than any ethnic minority. And a lot of these belong to the many, many “law enforcement agencies in th country.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:04 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Lying is not OK on a sceptic board. Fortunately - this has become the Baader-Meinhof forum.
And yet differentiating a lie from an opinion different than one’s own on a message board is an exercise in futility. Best to take the easy and thoughtless way out and just make the accusation. Puts the other poster on the defensive every time so must be a good thing.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:08 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
A very rational analysis and opinion. Thank you. I have some minor quibbles but they are not really worth posting.

It raises a new question in my mind though. Why use CBP personnel who are not trained and equipped for action against large numbers of US citizens? Surely national guard who do have the training would be more suitable.
The governor refused to send in the National guard when asked repeatedly to do so to protect the Courthouse and the Feds there.

I honestly would rather have more physical bariers at this point, rather than putting more people with guns in a way that I do not believe the protesters would see as deescalating at this point.

If the wall of Moms actually worked to stop the violence rather than give cover for one side to perpetuate it, that would definitely deescalate. If they and the wall of dads prevented the violent protesters from starting fires and attacking the Feds, than that would have a positive difference, but the anarchists in Portland are no joke. So far the wall of moms, or dads, or vets have not chosen to do that though, and I do not see that changing any time soon.

More barriers backed by concrete blocks is really the best way to safely reduce the violence at the Courthouse in my opinion.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:22 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The governor refused to send in the National guard when asked repeatedly to do so to protect the Courthouse and the Feds there.

I honestly would rather have more physical bariers at this point, rather than putting more people with guns in a way that I do not believe the protesters would see as deescalating at this point.

If the wall of Moms actually worked to stop the violence rather than give cover for one side to perpetuate it, that would definitely deescalate. If they and the wall of dads prevented the violent protesters from starting fires and attacking the Feds, than that would have a positive difference, but the anarchists in Portland are no joke. So far the wall of moms, or dads, or vets have not chosen to do that though, and I do not see that changing any time soon.

More barriers backed by concrete blocks is really the best way to safely reduce the violence at the Courthouse in my opinion.
If I understand you, it is the state governor’s responsibility to utilize the national guard and this option is not available to federal authorities. On the other hand federal authorities can do and end run around the governor and utilize border patrol personnel to do the job of the national guard.

Seems the individual states of the USA are paper tigers.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:53 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The protests in Portland seem to me to be an actualization of the definition that democracy is the theory of government that the people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. Portland is going the way of Detroit. It cannot recover from this, not for decades. And that's a damn shame.
Going the way of Detroit? That's quite the interesting claim. What's your reasoning? Similarly, "cannot recover from this, not for decades" is also an interesting claim that I'm curious about how you would back it up.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:58 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
No, the Feds absolutely do not need to be there and should not be. There are a HUGE list of better options to protect the Courthouse and the people working there from violence, but [deflection]
Begging the question. Did the courthouse need to be protected? From my perspective most of the country away, the federal response is less about protecting the courthouse than "protecting the courthouse," and the counter-protests aren't about the courthouse but the brutality of its "protection."

Quote:
A question back at you. Since Wheeler has the ability to stop the violence at any time of his choosing, but chooses not to, why do you think that is?
Begging the question. He has no such ability. His choices at present are to "cooperate" with the feds hoping to reduce the violence with which they suppress the protests, "cooperate" with the protestors by trying to kick the feds out of his city using violence if necessary, or to wait and see.

Quote:
If Wheeler set up another baricade, and made sure it was strong enough to withstand attack, and prevented protesters from breaching the first fence, there would be no violence from the Feds at all.
Yes there would be. There was a barricade outside the White House and that didn't stop the DoJ from teargassing the protestors anyway so Bunker Boy could get a photo op crossing the street like a strongman. Again, the safety of the courthouse is not the point of this exercise. The point is to bring liberal American cities into line.

Also, since you seem to keep coming back to it, walls don't work. It's a stupid idea. It was a stupid idea when East Germany tried it, it was a stupid idea when Trump campaigned on it, it was a stupid idea when he actually did it in the early days of BLM, it would be a stupid idea to do it here. All they're good for is making concrete symbols of your own hatred, fear and weakness.

If you want to deescalate, you need the federal agencies to either **** right off and let local forces handle it or be effusively cooperative when one of their roided up border goons beats the crap out of a decorated veteran for not backing down.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
If the wall of Moms actually worked to stop the violence rather than give cover for one side to perpetuate it, that would definitely deescalate. If they and the wall of dads prevented the violent protesters from starting fires and attacking the Feds, than that would have a positive difference, but the anarchists in Portland are no joke. So far the wall of moms, or dads, or vets have not chosen to do that though, and I do not see that changing any time soon.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The Lamestream Media, including @FoxNews, which has really checked out, is refusing to show what is REALLY going on in Portland, Seattle, and other places. They want the American public to believe that these are just some wonderful protesters, not radical left ANARCHISTS!
For someone who hates Donald Trump so much you keep copying directly from his playbook.

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Old 26th July 2020, 04:18 PM   #455
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Red face

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Going the way of Detroit? That's quite the interesting claim. What's your reasoning? Similarly, "cannot recover from this, not for decades" is also an interesting claim that I'm curious about how you would back it up.
It is experiencing a breakdown of law and order. It is no longer safe to run a business in downtown Portland. You are at the mercy of the mob's whims. Businesses will leave, new ones will not open. Why would they? It's just too risky. And as businesses leave and the tax base shrinks, city services will have to be cut as well. Taxes will probably increase to try to offset this, but that will only propel the flight of more businesses. We are witnessing the start of urban decay. This is the trigger. The only way out would be a complete change in political leadership and direction, but that's exactly what will not happen.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:02 PM   #456
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Yes, I can just imagine the plight of future generations growing up on the mean streets of Portland.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:18 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Yes, I can just imagine the plight of future generations growing up on the mean streets of Portland.
Crime-riddled liberal hell hole. Pairs of CBP personnel on every corner with camo, gas masks, rubber bullets. Burned out building shells including courthouse, city hall, and Starbucks. Gangs roaming the streets with Black Lives Matter signs. Not to mention the feared “Vanilla ISIS” lurking in every sewer. My poor wife will never again be able to visit the city of her birth.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:31 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Crime-riddled liberal hell hole. Pairs of CBP personnel on every corner with camo, gas masks, rubber bullets. Burned out building shells including courthouse, city hall, and Starbucks. Gangs roaming the streets with Black Lives Matter signs. Not to mention the feared “Vanilla ISIS” lurking in every sewer. My poor wife will never again be able to visit the city of her birth.
Most of the youth never end up joining society as adults. They fall by the wayside and join one of the gangs - the Woke, the Fixies, Antifa, there's dozens. See those guys on the corner with the handlebar mustaches? They're Velocipedes. They're usually alright as long as you don't ask what all the brass gears and dials are for. Poor kids get sucked right off the street into the farm-to-table pipeline. They'll never know anything but organic produce and weed.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:26 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
DHS says they were doxxed but your link contains this:
Quote:
The extent of what information was published relating to Portland police was not immediately clear.
Get back to me when it is clear. Until then ..... yawn.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:30 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Mayor Wheeler has the ability to halt the violence at the Courthouse immediately, but chooses not to.
Assertion based on facts not in evidence.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:37 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And oh, the irony! Guess what argument the Democrat Governor of Oregon tried to use to get rid of the feds? Yep, states' rights is suddenly getting respect from liberals.

No, silly. One governor who happens to be a Democrat has made use of an argument involving states' rights just one time in one unique circumstance to support his position. Why the unjustified generalization?
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:43 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
... Vanilla ISIS....
That's REALLY stupid comment to make. Period.

More mindless exaggeration.
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Lying is not OK on a sceptic board. Fortunately - this has become the Baader-Meinhof forum.
Why?

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Old 26th July 2020, 08:05 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Most of the youth never end up joining society as adults. They fall by the wayside and join one of the gangs - the Woke, the Fixies, Antifa, there's dozens. See those guys on the corner with the handlebar mustaches? They're Velocipedes. They're usually alright as long as you don't ask what all the brass gears and dials are for. Poor kids get sucked right off the street into the farm-to-table pipeline. They'll never know anything but organic produce and weed.
Kids these days just want to burn down police stations, vape, and ride those old timey bicycles with a 6 foot front wheel. Shaking my head in disgust.
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Old 26th July 2020, 09:10 PM   #464
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As far as I can tell (sorry no good link with the distinct information) both in Portland and in Seattle (this one I know from being here) only a few blocks are involved. It's not the entire downtown in either city.

I'm not saying it's fine for the businesses suffering. The large proportion of the BLM protesters are not breaking windows and looting and they don't want these idiots here. It detracts from the legitimate protests.

But it doesn't surprise me that more people joined the more violent protesters to object to contracted federal thugs that Trump sent in.
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:20 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Begging the question. Did the courthouse need to be protected? From my perspective most of the country away, the federal response is less about protecting the courthouse than "protecting the courthouse," and the counter-protests aren't about the courthouse but the brutality of its "protection."
Protecting the Courthouse is a lot more about protecting the Americans there being attacked. You can't just leave them alone to be attacked, assaulted, and yes, potentially killed because the attackers are scary and intimidating, and the local mayor is encouraging the violence.

That would be a disgrace to not only the people being attacked, but everyone who took an oath to protect America from its enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Begging the question. He has no such ability. His choices at present are to "cooperate" with the feds hoping to reduce the violence with which they suppress the protests, "cooperate" with the protestors by trying to kick the feds out of his city using violence if necessary, or to wait and see.


Yes there would be. There was a barricade outside the White House and that didn't stop the DoJ from teargassing the protestors anyway so Bunker Boy could get a photo op crossing the street like a strongman. Again, the safety of the courthouse is not the point of this exercise. The point is to bring liberal American cities into line.

Also, since you seem to keep coming back to it, walls don't work. It's a stupid idea. It was a stupid idea when East Germany tried it, it was a stupid idea when Trump campaigned on it, it was a stupid idea when he actually did it in the early days of BLM, it would be a stupid idea to do it here. All they're good for is making concrete symbols of your own hatred, fear and weakness.

If you want to deescalate, you need the federal agencies to either **** right off and let local forces handle it or be effusively cooperative when one of their roided up border goons beats the crap out of a decorated veteran for not backing down.
You keep having so little faith in the power or ability of the Portland Mayor. That he is soo weak and ineffective that there is just nothing he can do to stop the violence. There is plenty that he can do, he is just choosing not to.

Wheeler would not have to even personally physically do anything himself. It's the people who actually want to protect their City, and who take their oaths seriously who would be doing the work. Really the only thing that is needed from Wheeler is to be forced to stop supporting the violence. All he has to is to actions that are actually in the interest of his city, instead of helping to destroy it.

The primary thing for businesses and residents to do if they want to stop the violence is to sue the city of Portland to force Wheeler to put up an exclusion zone around the Courthouse (ideally with fencing) because of the continued violence.

Anyone entering that zone would be immediately arrested. Riot ribs and all.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:20 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Wouldn't it be sad if this was the reason that Trump was re-elected? The people who were already voting against Trump will likely see little movement from this, but the independents and moderate Republicans who see Democratic mayors site ideally by as chaos engulfs their city might be persuaded to hold their noses and vote for Trump.

Certainly the best thing that has happened for Trump in years.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Got any evidence of this fear-mongering success?
I do not have direct evidence that the violent protests would lead to Trump being likely to be re-elected I certainly hope that they do not, however there is evidence that the more violent protests tend to help Republicans in elections, while peaceful ones tend to benefit Democrats. The lead from Biden over Trump had been increasing recently, but we will soon see if the reactions of American voters seeing violent protesters throwing explosives, burning down buildings, and beating up people, will halt or reverse the lead that Biden currently has. The Economist article below (History suggests that Republicans benefit from street violence, whereas Democrats gain from peaceful protests), has some pretty good data to look at on that issue.

Also, in general, there is evidence in polling that many of those voting against Trump have already made up their minds. So the affect of the National attention on the violent protests are more likely to affect the voting choices of Independents and moderate Republicans. Studies have found that violent protests focusing on liberal issues have a large effect on voting trends of Republicans and Independents who lean Republican. Trump's support among Independents and moderate Republican is extremely important to whether he will win key swing States. This is an important since his recent blunders in Foreign Policy and COVID 19 response had waned support for him among these groups. For both of those groups, seeing cities burn mostly due to ineffective or uncaring Democratic Mayors/Governors is very likely going to be of large benefit to Trump.

Trump's advisors think that the violent protests in specific is of tremendous value to Trump's re-election chances, and potentially the best thing that is going for him right now. Especially since he is no longer primarily highlighting the economy as one of his biggest strengths since the hits it took during COVID. This gives something for Trump to focus on, and to fire up his base. A path towards enthusiasm for his campaign that he badly needed right now. Trump would like to portray all of the racial justice protests as violent. The increasing numbers of actually violent protests have given Trump the ammunition to try to validate his claims.

Those protesters engaged in violence are liekly doing more for Trump's re-election than all of his surrogates and million dollar super packs combined.

More work with polling needs to address this issue to find out how much damage if any it is doing to Biden. If I had to guess, I would say that the violent protests will result in a 4-8% reduction in the lead for Biden, and a switching of 2-3 Key swing states back into Trumps hands. I am hopeful that this hit for Biden will not be enough for Trump to win. In my opinion this will lead to a closer election either way, which is a problem for a president who has said that he will "have to wait and see" if he will accept the election results if he loses.

I am certainly not the only one who has noticed this connection

As America burns, riots play into Trump's hands

Rioters could give Trump another four years in White House

US riots to bolster support for Trump

Trump advisers hope law and order campaign will resonate over Covid response

Will protests help Donald Trump as they did Richard Nixon in 1968?: History suggests that Republicans benefit from street violence, whereas Democrats gain from peaceful protests

There are a lot more studies and articles with the same line of thinking, but I will leave it there.

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Old 26th July 2020, 11:38 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is experiencing a breakdown of law and order. It is no longer safe to run a business in downtown Portland. You are at the mercy of the mob's whims. Businesses will leave, new ones will not open. Why would they? It's just too risky. And as businesses leave and the tax base shrinks, city services will have to be cut as well. Taxes will probably increase to try to offset this, but that will only propel the flight of more businesses. We are witnessing the start of urban decay. This is the trigger. The only way out would be a complete change in political leadership and direction, but that's exactly what will not happen.
Broadly speaking, I think that you're overestimating the area meaningfully affected - and failing to appreciate some important differences between Detroit and Portland. Detroit, for example, had some rather deeply ingrained problems with planning and was already quite distinctly in decline long before the 1967 riots. Can you meaningfully say the same of Portland? While it's distinctly possible that Portland will come out of this time a bit weaker, I think that the protests or the riots are highly unlikely to actually meaningfully start urban decay in Portland. COVID-19 related effects will fairly certainly dwarf any effects caused by such, regardless, so I suppose that you could try to argue that they serve more as a straw that breaks the camel's back?
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:44 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that CBP agents are disproportionately Hispanic, that's an amusing argument to make.
Almost as amusing as "but black cops kill black people too" - which this seems to be a variation of.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:57 PM   #469
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Has anyone considered ending the protests by finding out if there are valid reasons for the protesters' complaints, and if so proposing ways to fix the problems?
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Old 27th July 2020, 12:02 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Has anyone considered ending the protests by finding out if there are valid reasons for the protesters' complaints, and if so proposing ways to fix the problems?
If I understand the situation correctly, the peaceful protestors do tend to have valid reasons and the BLM organizers do have a number of proposals on how to make things better. I suspect that Mumbles, for example, can elaborate more on them, as he seems to be more involved than most of the rest of us.
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:12 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Protecting the Courthouse is a lot more about protecting the Americans there being attacked. You can't just leave them alone to be attacked, assaulted, and yes, potentially killed because the attackers are scary and intimidating, and the local mayor is encouraging the violence.

That would be a disgrace to not only the people being attacked, but everyone who took an oath to protect America from its enemies, both foreign and domestic.
Oh, the people! Well, that's an easy solution then: shut down the courthouse while protests present a threat. If they can do it for months in response to a virus that someone might get and might kill a small fraction of them, surely it would be prudent do it for a few days or weeks while there's a violent mob raging outside.

Unless of course there is no violent mob, they are not under any threat, and the exercise is just a pretext to normalize the deployment of secret police.

Quote:
You keep having so little faith in the power or ability of the Portland Mayor. That he is soo weak and ineffective that there is just nothing he can do to stop the violence. There is plenty that he can do, he is just choosing not to.

Wheeler would not have to even personally physically do anything himself. It's the people who actually want to protect their City, and who take their oaths seriously who would be doing the work. Really the only thing that is needed from Wheeler is to be forced to stop supporting the violence. All he has to is to actions that are actually in the interest of his city, instead of helping to destroy it.

The primary thing for businesses and residents to do if they want to stop the violence is to sue the city of Portland to force Wheeler to put up an exclusion zone around the Courthouse (ideally with fencing) because of the continued violence.

Anyone entering that zone would be immediately arrested. Riot ribs and all.
BUILD THE WALL! BUILD THE WALL!

No srsly, what do you think would happen next? Are the federal goons going to take off their helmets, say "well our job here is done" and march off into the sunset, drowning themselves in the Pacific because all crime has been eradicated forever? Or will they just shift to "protecting" the exclusion zone with the same "he's coming right for us!" fervor they protected the courthouse with, but with the added optics of symbolic fear for Trump to ratchet up the propaganda?

Or are you suggesting Wheeler also prevent the federal forces from leaving the courthouse grounds? That would be an even dumber idea, they will resist arrest because the violence is why they're there.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I do not have direct evidence that the violent protests would lead to Trump being likely to be re-elected I certainly hope that they do not, however there is evidence that the more violent protests tend to help Republicans in elections, while peaceful ones tend to benefit Democrats. The lead from Biden over Trump had been increasing recently, but we will soon see if the reactions of American voters seeing violent protesters throwing explosives, burning down buildings, and beating up people, will halt or reverse the lead that Biden currently has. The Economist article below (History suggests that Republicans benefit from street violence, whereas Democrats gain from peaceful protests), has some pretty good data to look at on that issue.

Also, in general, there is evidence in polling that many of those voting against Trump have already made up their minds. So the affect of the National attention on the violent protests are more likely to affect the voting choices of Independents and moderate Republicans. Studies have found that violent protests focusing on liberal issues have a large effect on voting trends of Republicans and Independents who lean Republican. Trump's support among Independents and moderate Republican is extremely important to whether he will win key swing States. This is an important since his recent blunders in Foreign Policy and COVID 19 response had waned support for him among these groups. For both of those groups, seeing cities burn mostly due to ineffective or uncaring Democratic Mayors/Governors is very likely going to be of large benefit to Trump.

Trump's advisors think that the violent protests in specific is of tremendous value to Trump's re-election chances, and potentially the best thing that is going for him right now. Especially since he is no longer primarily highlighting the economy as one of his biggest strengths since the hits it took during COVID. This gives something for Trump to focus on, and to fire up his base. A path towards enthusiasm for his campaign that he badly needed right now. Trump would like to portray all of the racial justice protests as violent. The increasing numbers of actually violent protests have given Trump the ammunition to try to validate his claims.

Those protesters engaged in violence are liekly doing more for Trump's re-election than all of his surrogates and million dollar super packs combined.

More work with polling needs to address this issue to find out how much damage if any it is doing to Biden. If I had to guess, I would say that the violent protests will result in a 4-8% reduction in the lead for Biden, and a switching of 2-3 Key swing states back into Trumps hands. I am hopeful that this hit for Biden will not be enough for Trump to win. In my opinion this will lead to a closer election either way, which is a problem for a president who has said that he will "have to wait and see" if he will accept the election results if he loses.

I am certainly not the only one who has noticed this connection
Capital deduction, Sherlock!

Now, with this motivation in mind, ask yourself how the situation in Portland came to be at such loggerheads. Is the mayor and governor's refusal to send in the national guard really because they're horrible people hell bent on escalating things until their city burns down, or because they really didn't see it as justified and recognized it would just be injecting violence in their city for Trump's gross political theater? Is the aim of the unidentified mercenaries set in by the Trump administration as the "or else" of the previous scenario really just to ensure the safety of federal property and persons thereon? Or were they deliberately sent into Portland to "quell unrest" as hard as it took for there to be some real unrest to quell, and don't actually give half a crap about whether the courthouse is secure?

You go ahead and ponder these, Holmes, I'll fetch your funny hat and opium pipe.

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Old 27th July 2020, 06:54 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Oh, the people! Well, that's an easy solution then: shut down the courthouse while protests present a threat. If they can do it for months in response to a virus that someone might get and might kill a small fraction of them, surely it would be prudent do it for a few days or weeks while there's a violent mob raging outside.

Unless of course there is no violent mob, they are not under any threat, and the exercise is just a pretext to normalize the deployment of secret police.
Wow, covid19 denial and riot denial all in two short paragraphs. Sure you don't want to try for 9-11 Truth?
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:55 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Has anyone considered ending the protests by finding out if there are valid reasons for the protesters' complaints, and if so proposing ways to fix the problems?
No, nobody's thought of this.
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Old 27th July 2020, 07:26 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Wow, covid19 denial and riot denial all in two short paragraphs. Sure you don't want to try for 9-11 Truth?
Try harder.
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Old 27th July 2020, 07:29 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Wheeler would not have to even personally physically do anything himself. It's the people who actually want to protect their City, and who take their oaths seriously who would be doing the work. Really the only thing that is needed from Wheeler is to be forced to stop supporting the violence. All he has to is to actions that are actually in the interest of his city, instead of helping to destroy it.
Or he could continue doing what he's doing and get to be feted on national TV every night as the new face of the Resistance.
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Old 27th July 2020, 08:54 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No clue as to veracity or accuracy, but according to the thing posted by Tahini-person earlier in this thread, yes, that's exactly what the concern is. It says "The names of the agents were not displayed due to recent doxxing incidents against law enforcement personnel"
Yep universal reason the secret police are secret. They are now america's secret police.
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Old 27th July 2020, 08:59 AM   #477
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If the protests are actually hurting the city, maybe Illegal Chad should have considered that before taking steps that brought many more people to them.

Holding the citizens to a higher standard of care in exercising their 1st Amendment rights than holding the government to while it attempts to suppress them is pretty backwards. It is also a framing that tends to put the agency mostly on the citizens rather than the government in terms of immediate actions in an attempt to place the blame there as well.
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Old 27th July 2020, 09:50 AM   #478
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If anybody is interested in learning about the ins and outs of the legality of this, the Opening Arguments legal podcast went into a deep dive on it in their most recent episode. Very much worth listening to.
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Old 27th July 2020, 10:01 AM   #479
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When the Bundys took over a Federal Building with automatic weapons, what exactly was the Government response?
What was the Republican outcry?

The actions of the Federal Government in Portland are another clear example that self-declared Republicans have no ideological principles whatsoever.
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Old 27th July 2020, 10:18 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
When the Bundys took over a Federal Building with automatic weapons, what exactly was the Government response?
What was the Republican outcry?

The actions of the Federal Government in Portland are another clear example that self-declared Republicans have no ideological principles whatsoever.
How did you arrive at "no ideological principles" from the premise of that they only care about riots when it's the other side. If you look at the left-wing response to yellow vest in France it shows that you have the exact same position. By your logic, the left also must have "no ideological principles" but fighting their opponents and winning.
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