Unconstitutional actions by fededal police in Portland? - Page 5

BobTheCoward · 18th July 2020, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma

By your definition every LEO is unidentified simply by using an unmarked car. Also, you ignore the statement of what actually happened.

Yes, they are unidentified in that situation.

SezMe · 18th July 2020, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Short of a mass uprising of armed Portlanders, anyone that tries to intervene with a gun is likely to face a violent death.

Worst idea of the month. Should shooting start, Trump and all his evil doers will have full justification for the most extreme tactics. They could arrest anyone with opposable thumbs on no pretext whatsoever and "disappear" them with no constitutional rights whatsoever.

No, this has to be fought from the moral high ground. Anything else will ensure the bad guys win.

SezMe · 18th July 2020, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Er... do these people actually disappear or do they pop back up? The first one we heard about a month or two ago reappeared just fine.

I completely disagree. They may not have been physically harmed but that's not the only harm possible. For example, they may be intimidated into not protesting any more. Also, the constitution has been severely harmed in the process.

SezMe · 18th July 2020, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

These officers do not appear to be violating any laws.

Assumes fact not in evidence.

Minoosh · 18th July 2020, 09:29 PM

The one time they wouldn't look like idiots for wearing balaclavas, and they can't bother with face masks for the pre-operation schmoozing session (or whatever it was). They wore them when it was time to look bad-ass ****.

rockinkt · 18th July 2020, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I don’t know how common it is, but as a deputy sheriff I was often dispatched to provide “uniform presence”. That was so a marked car would identify that a raid by SWAT or whoever was “official”.

I have heard of the FBI. They often wear jackets that coincidentally say FBI in large letters. They also tend to produce ID to confirm who they represent, and their names. Always? I can’t say, but pretty sure that’s SOP across many departments.

Now you're grasping at straws.
Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles.
As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car.

Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.

rockinkt · 18th July 2020, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Plainclothes and undercover cops don't usually constitute an armed force in camo with unmarked vans.

When the FBI raids a location they have FBI clearly marked on their jackets or shirts. There's a big difference.

So what?
Please provide the law which states that police in the US cannot wear whatever their department authorizes them to wear?
The police only have a legal requirement to identify themselves as police or whatever their agency is to the people they are directly interacting with which includes detaining or arresting.

SezMe · 18th July 2020, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I think on this issue im galaxy brain libertarian

That may well be but your not fluent in the use of the English language.

SezMe · 18th July 2020, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma

Only the whole "unidentified" isn't true.

What are the red circles in the first image suppose to indicate?

sackett · 18th July 2020, 10:00 PM

I'm having trouble identifying the weapons these hoons are carrying. Looks like grenade launchers. HK MP5s? Specialized pepper spray squirters? Can anyone spot ARs?

Ugly business.

rockinkt · 18th July 2020, 10:11 PM

Is there an actual law in the US - not policy - that a police officer must immediately give their name when asked by any citizen under all circumstances?

I am pretty sure there is either law or case law that law enforcement personnel must identify themselves as police or peace officers and name their agency - if time permits - during an arrest or detainment if they are not in regular uniform.
I don't think there is any actual law that negates the arrest or action taken by the police officer if they do not give their personal name or badge number immediately upon request.
The way a lot of people are carrying on it sounds like they think there must be. So - if one of you could provide a link to the law - please do so.

In Canada - we are only legally bound to state that we are police in order to make an arrest or detain someone if "time and circumstances permit".
"Police. You're under arrest".
Individual names of the police officers are not required until the paperwork starts.
The fact that a "policy" has been in effect for decades that we must provide our name and rank to a citizen who requests it does not mean that it is a law that negates our actions or provides the defence with a legal advantage.
In other words - I can arrest someone and not give my name during the arrest even through the perp and his ten friends are yelling for it.
I may get a zinger from my boss for not following policy - but it is not going to have any legal implications or repercussions as far as the charges that are laid against the individual I arrested.

uke2se · 18th July 2020, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Is there an actual law in the US - not policy - that a police officer must immediately give their name when asked by any citizen under all circumstances?

I am pretty sure there is either law or case law that law enforcement personnel must identify themselves as police or peace officers and name their agency - if time permits - during an arrest or detainment if they are not in regular uniform.
I don't think there is any actual law that negates the arrest or action taken by the police officer if they do not give their personal name or badge number immediately upon request.
The way a lot of people are carrying on it sounds like they think there must be. So - if one of you could provide a link to the law - please do so.

In Canada - we are only legally bound to state that we are police in order to make an arrest or detain someone if "time and circumstances permit".
"Police. You're under arrest".
Individual names of the police officers are not required until the paperwork starts.
The fact that a "policy" has been in effect for decades that we must provide our name and rank to a citizen who requests it does not mean that it is a law that negates our actions or provides the defence with a legal advantage.
In other words - I can arrest someone and not give my name during the arrest even through the perp and his ten friends are yelling for it.
I may get a zinger from my boss for not following policy - but it is not going to have any legal implications or repercussions as far as the charges that are laid against the individual I arrested.

Does Canada have an alphabet soup of agencies with various jurisdictions operating under different laws carrying out crowd-control operations without identifying even the agency they work for?

Captain_Swoop · 19th July 2020, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma

Only the whole "unidentified" isn't true.

These are not the ones snatching people off the streets.
There are plenty of videos of unidentified men in combat uniforms taking people away in unmarked vehicles.
Posting pictures of different men in uniforms doesn't help your case.

Captain_Swoop · 19th July 2020, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Now you're grasping at straws.
Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles.
As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car.

Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.

Actual video of it happening?

Belz... · 19th July 2020, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

I completely disagree. They may not have been physically harmed but that's not the only harm possible. For example, they may be intimidated into not protesting any more. Also, the constitution has been severely harmed in the process.

Once again I didn't mean "completely unharmed". I just meant that they did, actually, reappear.

So that's my question: do we know what happened to these other people who were taken away? Where they charged with something? Released on bail? Detained?

Beelzebuddy · 19th July 2020, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

What are the red circles in the first image suppose to indicate?

That they completed their Securing the Homeland merit badges.

Fast Eddie B · 19th July 2020, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

These are not the ones snatching people off the streets.
There are plenty of videos of unidentified men in combat uniforms taking people away in unmarked vehicles.
Posting pictures of different men in uniforms doesn't help your case.

The video I saw had a woman asking the camo-wearing _______* who they were, and asking them to “use their words” to clarify what the subject was under arrest for. As far as I could see, they remained silent, and I saw no insignias as they threw him into a van and drove off. I would certainly want to know what a friend was under arrest for, and under whose authority.

*I left that blank after struggling to find an appropriate word. Are they law enforcement officers? Soldiers? Federal Agents? Militia? Vigilantes? Death Squads? Sure, that last one is a reach, but I’m sure it was in the beginning in the countries where such actually did come to pass.

Captain_Swoop · 19th July 2020, 06:46 AM

Trump tweeted

We are trying to help Portland, not hurt it. Their leadership has, for months, lost control of the anarchists and agitators. They are missing in action. We must protect Federal property, AND OUR PEOPLE. These were not merely protesters, these are the real deal!

kookbreaker · 19th July 2020, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump tweeted

We are trying to help Portland, not hurt it. Their leadership has, for months, lost control of the anarchists and agitators. They are missing in action. We must protect Federal property, AND OUR PEOPLE. These were not merely protesters, these are the real deal!

Trump: ....must...paint...liberal..urban...areas....as... warzones!

varwoche · 19th July 2020, 06:54 AM

Constitutional schmonstitutional. I barely care, in that I'm forced to recognize that the constitution is bull **** that depends on the honor system. And when there's no honor, it's a suicide pact.

So even if it is constitutional, this is one more step -- a bold step -- in the direction of thuggish authoritarianism.

dmaker · 19th July 2020, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Does Canada have an alphabet soup of agencies with various jurisdictions operating under different laws carrying out crowd-control operations without identifying even the agency they work for?

We don't tend to have as much sprawl in our law enforcement agencies. Off the top of my head, agencies with arrest powers go something like this:

RCMP and Ministry of Natural Resources officers and our CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency)

Provincial Police (for example in Ontario, the O.P.P)

Regional Police Services. These tend to cover an area that may include several cities and some surrounding rural areas. Provincial police can often be seen doing highway enforcement on major highways that pass through the region, but it would be rare to see a provincial officer attend say, a domestic dispute call, within the city/regional jurisdiction. They have the jurisdiction to do so, it's just not common that I have seen. Provincial police will conduct operations and investigations such as large scale drug busts or something within a city or regional area, but they don't really do any uniformed, front line type policing other than highway patrol usually in those areas.

City police services where there is no regional service. This would usually be a city of 20 thousand or more.

There are some private type police services that employ Special Constables such as campus police services. But even then, they operate under the auspice of the local police service. Their authority and training and operating parameters come under the umbrella of the whatever local police service, usually a regional service.

There is also the CN Police. This is Candada's largest private police service. The cover CN Railway property. Not sure why they have a private police service, but they have done so as long as I can remember.

There are also some places that have sworn special constables that do security. For example, Toronto City Hall security were recently sworn as special constables.

GO Transit also has an enforcement team that are sworn as special constables.

There are also what are known as PON officers. They have the power to issue citations for violations of provincial laws. For example, in Ontario the Liquor License Act covers alcohol infractions. Provincial Offence Notifications can be handed out by these officers. You will see these at conservation areas and beaches, etc in the summer time.

Some special constables are employed by regular police services. For example, the city I grew up in hires four post secondary students every summer as Park Patrol (I did this one summer, it was a blast). You are trained very briefly in the relevant procedure and laws and then given a badge, a uniform, ticket book, hand cuffs and a dirt bike. You spend your day driving around busting up bush parties. You write a lot of tickets for drinking in public or drinking under age. Being sworn as a special constable allows you to make arrests for non indictable offences, such as failing to id under the liquor licence act. A citizen could not make a similar arrest.

Most court services officers are special constables in their local police service. Not to be confused with auxiliary police who are volunteers and have no powers to write tickets.

We do have Sherrifs departments. I believe they mostly do court type services such as delivering summons and such. I don't believe they have any powers of arrest.

Special Constables do not carry firearms that I have ever seen or heard of, though they do have arrest and ticketing powers.

I'm not sure if CSIS has arrest powers or not. Military Police would be a different story as well.

autumn1971 · 19th July 2020, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Now you're grasping at straws.
Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles.
As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car.

Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.

You were in your jurisdiction. The kidnappers that the Feds are using are operating outside any Constitutional jurisdiction.
They should be met with all force necessary to stop them.

BobTheCoward · 19th July 2020, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

You were in your jurisdiction. The kidnappers that the Feds are using are operating outside any Constitutional jurisdiction.
They should be met with all force necessary to stop them.

It appears the US government has jurisdiction to enforce the US code in the US. That is ostensibly what they are doing.

autumn1971 · 19th July 2020, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It appears the US government has jurisdiction to enforce the US code in the US. That is ostensibly what they are doing.

Not outside of their jurisdiction. You are arguing that peaceful protesters not on federal property can be detained on suspicion of possibly damaging federal property at an unspecified future time.

Bad libertarian! No treat!

BobTheCoward · 19th July 2020, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Not outside of their jurisdiction. You are arguing that peaceful protesters not on federal property can be detained on suspicion of possibly damaging federal property at an unspecified future time.

Bad libertarian! No treat!

40 U.S. Code § 1315 authorizes it. Don't get angry at me for pointing out what crap laws authorize.

Also, as a libertarian, I oppose government regulation as overreach. I would be more inclined than you to conclude a government regulation overreaches and say that it does authorize detention of people off federal property.

Minoosh · 19th July 2020, 10:39 AM

I wonder if some of the people being harassed could all put on their coolest tactical gear, and confuse the **** out of the amalgamated federal forces in cool tactical gear.

Thermal · 19th July 2020, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I wonder if some of the people being harassed could all put on their coolest tactical gear, and confuse th6e **** out of the amalgamated federal forces in cool tactical gear.

Truth. Being decked out in full BDUs with their only ID being hard-to-even-see small camo'ed arm patches is essentially going stealth. Which doesn't even make sense. Were they hiding
from the protesters, and unidentifyability some kind of asset?

When you are in the legal right, you don't need to be so anonymous. It's only when breaking the law that you hide your ID.

Stacyhs · 19th July 2020, 10:59 AM

What is happening in my city at night now is disgusting. These are not the peaceful protesters we see during the day. They are a destructive mob who are burning and looting. This mob is not about police brutality or George Floyd. Mayor Wheeler, who completely supports the BLM peaceful protests, is as disgusted with these criminals as much as I am. They are doing BLM great harm. They are only giving Trump justification for sending in federal troops.

sackett · 19th July 2020, 11:06 AM

As the situation worsens for Benito Bonespurs and his gang, this is the kind of desperation we can expect. Our Bob has used the word "overreach," and just in time, for once.

Churchill once wrote, "It is much easier to infuriate Americans than it is to cow them."

IQ45 never read that, naturally, and so he'll have to learn it.

That's why I feel rather more encouraged than otherwise by events in Portland. Just watch: our flabby excuse for a Pinochet will haver and babble, and soon back down.

Or maybe he'll send for the Mounties. The Ore Say Imm Pay share his attitude toward uppity civilians, and they're not, repeat NOT the slightly comical straight arrows Americans like to think.

See my location? Closer to Canadia than some Canadiums, and we know the Moonties and their little ways from heap long time ago.

pipelineaudio · 19th July 2020, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

What were the Portland mayor and police doing that justified this action?

Nothing, while their citizens were getting beaten and their property destroyed by terrorists.

Again

and again

Two incidents ago, around 2016 I think, there were piles of videos from left and right begging the police to come do something and the police saying they had been told to stand down as people were being pulled out of their cars and beaten.

The idea that the portland police will be deployed to protect their citizens from armed gangsters is laughable

Skeptic Ginger · 19th July 2020, 06:10 PM

Trump is claiming he saved Portland.

Reports on the ground are that the federal troops caused a backlash making it worse.

NPR: Protests Grow On 52nd Night As Portland Responds To Federal Officers

Quote:

"Do not let our people get taken out here. This is dangerous. I don't know why they haven't come out yet," said demonstrator Teal Lindseth, referring to federal officers. "Normally they would have. And it's because there's a big a** group out here."

lomiller · 19th July 2020, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

So what?
Please provide the law which states that police in the US cannot wear whatever their department authorizes them to wear?
The police only have a legal requirement to identify themselves as police or whatever their agency is to the people they are directly interacting with which includes detaining or arresting.

If you did so without a badge or refused to provide a badge number you violated RCMP policy and in most provinces you violated the law as well.

Aridas · 19th July 2020, 09:12 PM

As an aside, the Lincoln Project has weighed in on Portland.

3point14 · 20th July 2020, 02:35 AM

"If you follow us, you will get shot."

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._a_tyrannical/

This is terrifying.

Safe-Keeper · 20th July 2020, 02:46 AM

Beau of the Fifth Coloumn has been talking about doing things by "the manual" latelly, and I wasn't quite sure what he meant. Apparently he's been referring to a field manual on counterinsurgency (FM3-24) that the US Army uses. He theorises (unless I misunderstood him) that the feds might be doing what they're doing to escalate the situation.

Originally Posted by Aridas

As an aside, the Lincoln Project has weighed in on Portland.

I watched that. Very chilling.

Captain_Swoop · 20th July 2020, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

If you did so without a badge or refused to provide a badge number you violated RCMP policy and in most provinces you violated the law as well.

If no one is willing to enforce the law then the law is worthless.

Safe-Keeper · 20th July 2020, 03:07 AM

From the Lincoln Project vid comments thread:

Quote:

"Don't make me repeat myself."

-History

Steve · 20th July 2020, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Rubbish! Unidentified means they do not have name badges or badge numbers.

The US is slowly but surely becoming a Police State. With Trump being so enamoured with dictators and the authoritarian leaders of other Police States, this should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Compare where you are with civil rights, treatment of minorities and Trump's defiance of the Law now, with where you were in, say 2016. I warned back in 2018 that Americans were being softened up for this sort of thing. I would not at all be surprised if Trump tried declaring a national state of emergency to delay the November election.

There is nothing slow about it.

Really, the USA has always been a police state, regardless of their claims of ‘freedom”. They are just not bothering to conceal it now.

SuburbanTurkey · 20th July 2020, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Worst idea of the month. Should shooting start, Trump and all his evil doers will have full justification for the most extreme tactics. They could arrest anyone with opposable thumbs on no pretext whatsoever and "disappear" them with no constitutional rights whatsoever.

No, this has to be fought from the moral high ground. Anything else will ensure the bad guys win.

That wasn't really a practical solution or advice, but rather a thought experiment. I tend to agree with you that the mostly peaceful and unarmed crowd is winning hearts and minds when video of them being brutalized by the police hit the public.

The extremely one-sided violence against the protesting crowds is having a tremendous effect in the city. Crowds are growing, not shrinking. It's not just young, black-clad leftists getting gassed and beat anymore. More and more of the city is acting out in revulsion to these Gestapo tactics.

It's almost a scene directly out of the 60's, where ordinary people wearing their Sunday best were set upon by racist Southern cops. We're already seeing things like the Navy vet have his bones broken by thuggish cops, or lines of middle aged moms getting gassed.

Belz... · 20th July 2020, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

There is nothing slow about it.

Really, the USA has always been a police state, regardless of their claims of ‘freedom”. They are just not bothering to conceal it now.

The Americans' inflated view of their own liberty has always been a bit silly.

18th July 2020, 09:25 PM	#163
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,004	Originally Posted by Belz... Er... do these people actually disappear or do they pop back up? The first one we heard about a month or two ago reappeared just fine. I completely disagree. They may not have been physically harmed but that's not the only harm possible. For example, they may be intimidated into not protesting any more. Also, the constitution has been severely harmed in the process.
	Last edited by SezMe; 18th July 2020 at 09:26 PM.

18th July 2020, 09:39 PM	#166
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,098	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B I don’t know how common it is, but as a deputy sheriff I was often dispatched to provide “uniform presence”. That was so a marked car would identify that a raid by SWAT or whoever was “official”. I have heard of the FBI. They often wear jackets that coincidentally say FBI in large letters. They also tend to produce ID to confirm who they represent, and their names. Always? I can’t say, but pretty sure that’s SOP across many departments. Now you're grasping at straws. Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles. As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car. Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,098	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 18th July 2020 at 09:52 PM.

18th July 2020, 09:49 PM	#167
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,098	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Plainclothes and undercover cops don't usually constitute an armed force in camo with unmarked vans. When the FBI raids a location they have FBI clearly marked on their jackets or shirts. There's a big difference. So what? Please provide the law which states that police in the US cannot wear whatever their department authorizes them to wear? The police only have a legal requirement to identify themselves as police or whatever their agency is to the people they are directly interacting with which includes detaining or arresting.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,098	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 18th July 2020 at 10:14 PM.

18th July 2020, 10:00 PM	#170
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,386	I'm having trouble identifying the weapons these hoons are carrying. Looks like grenade launchers. HK MP5s? Specialized pepper spray squirters? Can anyone spot ARs? Ugly business.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

18th July 2020, 10:11 PM	#171
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,098	Is there an actual law in the US - not policy - that a police officer must immediately give their name when asked by any citizen under all circumstances? I am pretty sure there is either law or case law that law enforcement personnel must identify themselves as police or peace officers and name their agency - if time permits - during an arrest or detainment if they are not in regular uniform. I don't think there is any actual law that negates the arrest or action taken by the police officer if they do not give their personal name or badge number immediately upon request. The way a lot of people are carrying on it sounds like they think there must be. So - if one of you could provide a link to the law - please do so. In Canada - we are only legally bound to state that we are police in order to make an arrest or detain someone if "time and circumstances permit". "Police. You're under arrest". Individual names of the police officers are not required until the paperwork starts. The fact that a "policy" has been in effect for decades that we must provide our name and rank to a citizen who requests it does not mean that it is a law that negates our actions or provides the defence with a legal advantage. In other words - I can arrest someone and not give my name during the arrest even through the perp and his ten friends are yelling for it. I may get a zinger from my boss for not following policy - but it is not going to have any legal implications or repercussions as far as the charges that are laid against the individual I arrested.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,098	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

18th July 2020, 09:19 PM	#161
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,256	Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma By your definition every LEO is unidentified simply by using an unmarked car. Also, you ignore the statement of what actually happened. Yes, they are unidentified in that situation.

18th July 2020, 09:22 PM	#162
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,004	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Short of a mass uprising of armed Portlanders, anyone that tries to intervene with a gun is likely to face a violent death. Worst idea of the month. Should shooting start, Trump and all his evil doers will have full justification for the most extreme tactics. They could arrest anyone with opposable thumbs on no pretext whatsoever and "disappear" them with no constitutional rights whatsoever. No, this has to be fought from the moral high ground. Anything else will ensure the bad guys win.

18th July 2020, 09:28 PM	#164
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,004	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward These officers do not appear to be violating any laws. Assumes fact not in evidence.

18th July 2020, 09:29 PM	#165
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	The one time they wouldn't look like idiots for wearing balaclavas, and they can't bother with face masks for the pre-operation schmoozing session (or whatever it was). They wore them when it was time to look bad-ass ****.

18th July 2020, 09:55 PM	#168
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,004	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I think on this issue im galaxy brain libertarian That may well be but your not fluent in the use of the English language.

18th July 2020, 09:57 PM	#169
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,004	Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma Only the whole "unidentified" isn't true. What are the red circles in the first image suppose to indicate?

18th July 2020, 11:20 PM	#172
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	Originally Posted by rockinkt Is there an actual law in the US - not policy - that a police officer must immediately give their name when asked by any citizen under all circumstances? I am pretty sure there is either law or case law that law enforcement personnel must identify themselves as police or peace officers and name their agency - if time permits - during an arrest or detainment if they are not in regular uniform. I don't think there is any actual law that negates the arrest or action taken by the police officer if they do not give their personal name or badge number immediately upon request. The way a lot of people are carrying on it sounds like they think there must be. So - if one of you could provide a link to the law - please do so. In Canada - we are only legally bound to state that we are police in order to make an arrest or detain someone if "time and circumstances permit". "Police. You're under arrest". Individual names of the police officers are not required until the paperwork starts. The fact that a "policy" has been in effect for decades that we must provide our name and rank to a citizen who requests it does not mean that it is a law that negates our actions or provides the defence with a legal advantage. In other words - I can arrest someone and not give my name during the arrest even through the perp and his ten friends are yelling for it. I may get a zinger from my boss for not following policy - but it is not going to have any legal implications or repercussions as far as the charges that are laid against the individual I arrested. Does Canada have an alphabet soup of agencies with various jurisdictions operating under different laws carrying out crowd-control operations without identifying even the agency they work for?
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

19th July 2020, 02:44 AM	#173
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,944	Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma Only the whole "unidentified" isn't true. These are not the ones snatching people off the streets. There are plenty of videos of unidentified men in combat uniforms taking people away in unmarked vehicles. Posting pictures of different men in uniforms doesn't help your case.

19th July 2020, 02:46 AM	#174
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,944	Originally Posted by rockinkt Now you're grasping at straws. Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles. As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car. Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone. Actual video of it happening?

19th July 2020, 04:18 AM	#175
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,442	Originally Posted by SezMe I completely disagree. They may not have been physically harmed but that's not the only harm possible. For example, they may be intimidated into not protesting any more. Also, the constitution has been severely harmed in the process. Once again I didn't mean "completely unharmed". I just meant that they did, actually, reappear. So that's my question: do we know what happened to these other people who were taken away? Where they charged with something? Released on bail? Detained?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

19th July 2020, 05:05 AM	#176
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,077	Originally Posted by SezMe What are the red circles in the first image suppose to indicate? That they completed their Securing the Homeland merit badges.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,077

19th July 2020, 05:11 AM	#177
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,746	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop These are not the ones snatching people off the streets. There are plenty of videos of unidentified men in combat uniforms taking people away in unmarked vehicles. Posting pictures of different men in uniforms doesn't help your case. The video I saw had a woman asking the camo-wearing _______* who they were, and asking them to “use their words” to clarify what the subject was under arrest for. As far as I could see, they remained silent, and I saw no insignias as they threw him into a van and drove off. I would certainly want to know what a friend was under arrest for, and under whose authority. *I left that blank after struggling to find an appropriate word. Are they law enforcement officers? Soldiers? Federal Agents? Militia? Vigilantes? Death Squads? Sure, that last one is a reach, but I’m sure it was in the beginning in the countries where such actually did come to pass.
	Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 19th July 2020 at 05:12 AM.

19th July 2020, 06:46 AM	#178
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,944	Trump tweeted We are trying to help Portland, not hurt it. Their leadership has, for months, lost control of the anarchists and agitators. They are missing in action. We must protect Federal property, AND OUR PEOPLE. These were not merely protesters, these are the real deal!

19th July 2020, 06:49 AM	#179
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,178	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump tweeted We are trying to help Portland, not hurt it. Their leadership has, for months, lost control of the anarchists and agitators. They are missing in action. We must protect Federal property, AND OUR PEOPLE. These were not merely protesters, these are the real deal! Trump: ....must...paint...liberal..urban...areas....as... warzones!
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.

19th July 2020, 06:54 AM	#180
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,437	Constitutional schmonstitutional. I barely care, in that I'm forced to recognize that the constitution is bull **** that depends on the honor system. And when there's no honor, it's a suicide pact. So even if it is constitutional, this is one more step -- a bold step -- in the direction of thuggish authoritarianism.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

19th July 2020, 07:26 AM	#181
dmaker Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,686	Originally Posted by uke2se Does Canada have an alphabet soup of agencies with various jurisdictions operating under different laws carrying out crowd-control operations without identifying even the agency they work for? We don't tend to have as much sprawl in our law enforcement agencies. Off the top of my head, agencies with arrest powers go something like this: RCMP and Ministry of Natural Resources officers and our CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency) Provincial Police (for example in Ontario, the O.P.P) Regional Police Services. These tend to cover an area that may include several cities and some surrounding rural areas. Provincial police can often be seen doing highway enforcement on major highways that pass through the region, but it would be rare to see a provincial officer attend say, a domestic dispute call, within the city/regional jurisdiction. They have the jurisdiction to do so, it's just not common that I have seen. Provincial police will conduct operations and investigations such as large scale drug busts or something within a city or regional area, but they don't really do any uniformed, front line type policing other than highway patrol usually in those areas. City police services where there is no regional service. This would usually be a city of 20 thousand or more. There are some private type police services that employ Special Constables such as campus police services. But even then, they operate under the auspice of the local police service. Their authority and training and operating parameters come under the umbrella of the whatever local police service, usually a regional service. There is also the CN Police. This is Candada's largest private police service. The cover CN Railway property. Not sure why they have a private police service, but they have done so as long as I can remember. There are also some places that have sworn special constables that do security. For example, Toronto City Hall security were recently sworn as special constables. GO Transit also has an enforcement team that are sworn as special constables. There are also what are known as PON officers. They have the power to issue citations for violations of provincial laws. For example, in Ontario the Liquor License Act covers alcohol infractions. Provincial Offence Notifications can be handed out by these officers. You will see these at conservation areas and beaches, etc in the summer time. Some special constables are employed by regular police services. For example, the city I grew up in hires four post secondary students every summer as Park Patrol (I did this one summer, it was a blast). You are trained very briefly in the relevant procedure and laws and then given a badge, a uniform, ticket book, hand cuffs and a dirt bike. You spend your day driving around busting up bush parties. You write a lot of tickets for drinking in public or drinking under age. Being sworn as a special constable allows you to make arrests for non indictable offences, such as failing to id under the liquor licence act. A citizen could not make a similar arrest. Most court services officers are special constables in their local police service. Not to be confused with auxiliary police who are volunteers and have no powers to write tickets. We do have Sherrifs departments. I believe they mostly do court type services such as delivering summons and such. I don't believe they have any powers of arrest. Special Constables do not carry firearms that I have ever seen or heard of, though they do have arrest and ticketing powers. I'm not sure if CSIS has arrest powers or not. Military Police would be a different story as well.
	Last edited by dmaker; 19th July 2020 at 07:36 AM.

19th July 2020, 08:39 AM	#182
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,286	Originally Posted by rockinkt Now you're grasping at straws. Lots of people are arrested every day by cops who do not wear identifiable insignias and drive unmarked police vehicles. As a member of the RCMP I worked in major crimes which was a plain clothes unit. You can bet your sweet bippy I arrested a lot of people while not wearing an identifying insignia or nametag, and drove an unmarked car. Please provide verified evidence that these alleged law enforcement personnel this thread is referring to are not identifying themselves as law enforcement officers when detaining or arresting someone. You were in your jurisdiction. The kidnappers that the Feds are using are operating outside any Constitutional jurisdiction. They should be met with all force necessary to stop them.
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,286	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

19th July 2020, 08:57 AM	#183
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,256	Originally Posted by autumn1971 You were in your jurisdiction. The kidnappers that the Feds are using are operating outside any Constitutional jurisdiction. They should be met with all force necessary to stop them. It appears the US government has jurisdiction to enforce the US code in the US. That is ostensibly what they are doing.

19th July 2020, 10:11 AM	#184
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,286	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It appears the US government has jurisdiction to enforce the US code in the US. That is ostensibly what they are doing. Not outside of their jurisdiction. You are arguing that peaceful protesters not on federal property can be detained on suspicion of possibly damaging federal property at an unspecified future time. Bad libertarian! No treat!
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,286	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

19th July 2020, 10:16 AM	#185
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,256	Originally Posted by autumn1971 Not outside of their jurisdiction. You are arguing that peaceful protesters not on federal property can be detained on suspicion of possibly damaging federal property at an unspecified future time. Bad libertarian! No treat! 40 U.S. Code § 1315 authorizes it. Don't get angry at me for pointing out what crap laws authorize. Also, as a libertarian, I oppose government regulation as overreach. I would be more inclined than you to conclude a government regulation overreaches and say that it does authorize detention of people off federal property.
	Last edited by BobTheCoward; 19th July 2020 at 10:23 AM.

19th July 2020, 10:39 AM	#186
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	I wonder if some of the people being harassed could all put on their coolest tactical gear, and confuse the **** out of the amalgamated federal forces in cool tactical gear.

19th July 2020, 10:50 AM	#187
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,538	Originally Posted by Minoosh I wonder if some of the people being harassed could all put on their coolest tactical gear, and confuse th6e **** out of the amalgamated federal forces in cool tactical gear. Truth. Being decked out in full BDUs with their only ID being hard-to-even-see small camo'ed arm patches is essentially going stealth. Which doesn't even make sense. Were they hiding from the protesters, and unidentifyability some kind of asset? When you are in the legal right, you don't need to be so anonymous. It's only when breaking the law that you hide your ID.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

19th July 2020, 10:59 AM	#188
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,029	What is happening in my city at night now is disgusting. These are not the peaceful protesters we see during the day. They are a destructive mob who are burning and looting. This mob is not about police brutality or George Floyd. Mayor Wheeler, who completely supports the BLM peaceful protests, is as disgusted with these criminals as much as I am. They are doing BLM great harm. They are only giving Trump justification for sending in federal troops.

19th July 2020, 11:06 AM	#189
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,386	As the situation worsens for Benito Bonespurs and his gang, this is the kind of desperation we can expect. Our Bob has used the word "overreach," and just in time, for once. Churchill once wrote, "It is much easier to infuriate Americans than it is to cow them." IQ45 never read that, naturally, and so he'll have to learn it. That's why I feel rather more encouraged than otherwise by events in Portland. Just watch: our flabby excuse for a Pinochet will haver and babble, and soon back down. Or maybe he'll send for the Mounties. The Ore Say Imm Pay share his attitude toward uppity civilians, and they're not, repeat NOT the slightly comical straight arrows Americans like to think. See my location? Closer to Canadia than some Canadiums, and we know the Moonties and their little ways from heap long time ago.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

19th July 2020, 11:13 AM	#190
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,863	Originally Posted by SezMe What were the Portland mayor and police doing that justified this action? Nothing, while their citizens were getting beaten and their property destroyed by terrorists. Again and again Two incidents ago, around 2016 I think, there were piles of videos from left and right begging the police to come do something and the police saying they had been told to stand down as people were being pulled out of their cars and beaten. The idea that the portland police will be deployed to protect their citizens from armed gangsters is laughable
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

19th July 2020, 06:10 PM	#191
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,002	Trump is claiming he saved Portland. Reports on the ground are that the federal troops caused a backlash making it worse. NPR: Protests Grow On 52nd Night As Portland Responds To Federal Officers Quote: "Do not let our people get taken out here. This is dangerous. I don't know why they haven't come out yet," said demonstrator Teal Lindseth, referring to federal officers. "Normally they would have. And it's because there's a big a** group out here."

19th July 2020, 07:43 PM	#192
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by rockinkt So what? Please provide the law which states that police in the US cannot wear whatever their department authorizes them to wear? The police only have a legal requirement to identify themselves as police or whatever their agency is to the people they are directly interacting with which includes detaining or arresting. If you did so without a badge or refused to provide a badge number you violated RCMP policy and in most provinces you violated the law as well.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

19th July 2020, 09:12 PM	#193
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,469	As an aside, the Lincoln Project has weighed in on Portland.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

20th July 2020, 02:35 AM	#194
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	"If you follow us, you will get shot." https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._a_tyrannical/ This is terrifying.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

20th July 2020, 02:46 AM	#195
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,395	Beau of the Fifth Coloumn has been talking about doing things by "the manual" latelly, and I wasn't quite sure what he meant. Apparently he's been referring to a field manual on counterinsurgency (FM3-24) that the US Army uses. He theorises (unless I misunderstood him) that the feds might be doing what they're doing to escalate the situation. Originally Posted by Aridas As an aside, the Lincoln Project has weighed in on Portland. I watched that. Very chilling.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig