Unconstitutional actions by fededal police in Portland? - Page 9

Belz... · 24th July 2020, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Nothing. Never has been anything to stop some pack of random idiots from dressing up and pulling the same stunt in the US or Canada or any other country. What's your point?

I think his point is that given the lack of official police badge and procedure it makes it easier for would-be evildoers to get away with this sort of thing, were they tempted to.

Mumbles · 24th July 2020, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Hilarious! Do you write a lot of comedy bits professionally or is this just a hobby?

They did it in NYC protests.

And in DC.

And in Oakland.

And in Sanford.

And in the CHOP

And in Baltimore - there were no protests at all when the cops ambushed a large group of teenager traveling home from their high schools

We did it in Boston.

You've plainly never even seen a civil rights protest before - if you did, you'd know that groups like BLM, National Action Network, SPLC, and numerous churches, discuss exactly how to do this, and mostly have since their inception. And frankly, you sound like one of those bigots that accused MLK Jr or *"rioting" back in the 50s and 60s.

Mumbles · 24th July 2020, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I think his point is that given the lack of official police badge and procedure it makes it easier for would-be evildoers to get away with this sort of thing, were they tempted to.

Much easier - also, with no identifying markers, and police wearing the exact same pseudomilitary crap that white supremacists and other gun fondlers like to dress up in, there's no real way to tell the difference between them.

kookbreaker · 24th July 2020, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Much easier - also, with no identifying markers, and police wearing the exact same pseudomilitary crap that white supremacists and other gun fondlers like to dress up in, there's no real way to tell the difference between them.

The Proud Boys and Boogaloos usually have 4-5 more rifles hanging off each of their shoulders, but other than that....

BobTheCoward · 24th July 2020, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

You think they went away to sip tea, and watch the rest of this peacefully on TV?

Saying, "same" means idea identical. Therefore, the only people that are the same as the people you describe, are the actual limited people that did the deed. As not all the protestors did it,the other crowd is not the same.

Leftus · 24th July 2020, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

They could. I doubt they'd go anywhere. For instance, the renter of record was presumably under orders to rent a minivan on behalf of the Executive Branch. I'd love to hear how this pencil-pusher is going to be argued into being a conspirator

That's not how it works. The person renting the vehicle would be physically there, and not in some dark corner of a building in DC. They would have to be physically there to present the Credit Card, take possession of the rental and the keys. He would then have to hand the keys off, against GSA rules, to the nefarious actors.

Why the use of the Executive Branch? Why not just the actual agency? Been working for various federal agencies for 12 years now. I've received exactly ZERO communications directly from the "Executive Branch." Sure, some spam from agency heads, but directives? Honestly, it's close to a conspiracy theory.

Beelzebuddy · 24th July 2020, 07:31 AM

CNN has a decent summary of what's gone down, hitting the major points without the hysterics

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/24/polit...ump/index.html

Thermal · 24th July 2020, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Leftus

That's not how it works. The person renting the vehicle would be physically there, and not in some dark corner of a building in DC. They would have to be physically there to present the Credit Card, take possession of the rental and the keys. He would then have to hand the keys off, against GSA rules, to the nefarious actors.

Why the use of the Executive Branch? Why not just the actual agency? Been working for various federal agencies for 12 years now. I've received exactly ZERO communications directly from the "Executive Branch." Sure, some spam from agency heads, but directives? Honestly, it's close to a conspiracy theory.

Not sure what kind of rentals you have worked with, but I personally have picked up rental cars reserved online by others without showing a card. Drivers license, of course. So as I have been saying, the Philly DA has little to work with but violating the rental driver agreement, which im pretty sure the feds could handle. The warm bodies to charge, and who ordered who to do what and under who's authority, remains toothless.

Executive branch used as shorthand, because we know the buck will stop there and provide its resources to any accused security agency.

pgwenthold · 24th July 2020, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Leftus

That's not how it works. The person renting the vehicle would be physically there, and not in some dark corner of a building in DC. They would have to be physically there to present the Credit Card, take possession of the rental and the keys. He would then have to hand the keys off, against GSA rules, to the nefarious actors.

Suppose I rent a car, and suppose that car gets flagged for running a red light by a red light camera. The police call the rental car company, and they give the police my name.

Now, I can try to claim that "it wasn't me who was driving," but you better believe I am not going to get away with it unless I can provide a viable explanation for who was driving.

Many rental car companies even require you to identify all those who will be driving the car.

So don't anybody give us this "they can't trace the car because they don't know the person who rented it will be driving it" nonsense. That's not how it works. As you point out, the person who rented the car knows who's in it. If it wasn't them who is doing it, then they need to explain why the car they rented was used in this way. And that includes things like, saying who did it.

Thermal · 24th July 2020, 08:04 AM

Border Patrol Agent Bob, who normally is the coffee boy, picks up the rented van as ordered.

His superior demands the keys and Bob does not see them again till it is time to return it.

Bob may or may not be charged with whatever Hertz' penalty is for violating the rental agreement.

Any requests regarding the orders Bob received and who ended up driving are evaded/'thats classified' etc

Thermal · 24th July 2020, 08:08 AM

Also, I still don't get the rented minivan thing. The Military, Homeland etc have a rather staggering budget. They're down to renting minivans like a siburban family on vacation?

Ziggurat · 24th July 2020, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Many rental car companies even require you to identify all those who will be driving the car.

Everyone keeps saying that, but I don't think it's actually true. I believe that for many corporate accounts, you do not need to specify all drivers. It suffices that they are employees of the company authorized to drive the car.

The federal government rents cars on a corporate account.

Leftus · 24th July 2020, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The federal government rents cars on a corporate account.

No, when it's rented, it's rented on a GSA issued visa card in the name of the Employee. It's always linked to an employee, who is ultimately responsible for the spending on the card. Without this accounting, it would be all but impossible to determine legit from illegitimate chargers.

Cards issued to purchase office supplies are issued to individuals, and not to a nameless corporate account.

I've rented a few cars for Official government work. I'm fairly familiar with the rules and still have the card. For the record, I can't even use the card and pay it off, thus incurring no costs for the government. That would be wrong, and I would lose the privilege of having the card.

The GSA does maintain a fleet, but there are none in Oregon, they would have had to driven down from Washington.

Ziggurat · 24th July 2020, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Leftus

No, when it's rented, it's rented on a GSA issued visa card in the name of the Employee. It's always linked to an employee, who is ultimately responsible for the spending on the card.

Yes, a single identifiable employee rents the car. But that isn't the question. The question is whether other employees of the same renting company can drive the car without being specifically identified to the car rental company. I believe they can, and your post doesn't indicate that they cannot.

Thermal · 24th July 2020, 09:12 AM

Govt pencil pusher Smith rents minivan online. This can happen.

Coffee boy Bob picks up reserved minivan, showing his license. This can also happen.

Stormtroopers without badges or nametags, but with full head and face covering per OP video, board and hit the streets.

How is the DA going to charge anyone again?

Belz... · 24th July 2020, 09:27 AM

Why is this thread about rental cars now?

BobTheCoward · 24th July 2020, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Govt pencil pusher Smith rents minivan online. This can happen.

Coffee boy Bob picks up reserved minivan, showing his license. This can also happen.

Stormtroopers without badges or nametags, but with full head and face covering per OP video, board and hit the streets.

How is the DA going to charge anyone again?

Im a terrible coffee boy.

pgwenthold · 24th July 2020, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Why is this thread about rental cars now?

Because some feel a need to find a way to avoid holding Nazi storm troopers responsible for their action.

BStrong · 24th July 2020, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. snipped

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty

"The four boxes of liberty is an idea that proposes: "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."

When the gov.org proposes to take all the (whatevers) into custody and hold them without due process of law it's time to gear up.

Arresting rioters doesn't qualify.

Read the second line of my sig.

Ziggurat · 24th July 2020, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Because some feel a need to find a way to avoid holding Nazi storm troopers responsible for their action.

I wonder when people will figure out that Godwining doesn't work.

Belz... · 24th July 2020, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I wonder when people will figure out that Godwining doesn't work.

Of course it works. Sometimes a spade is a spade. And sometimes hyperbole drives the point home.

Brainster · 24th July 2020, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Of course it works. Sometimes a spade is a spade. And sometimes hyperbole drives the point home.

And the other 99.9% of the time....

Belz... · 24th July 2020, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

And the other 99.9% of the time....

Should we never make the comparison because it's usually hyperbolic?

Leftus · 24th July 2020, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Yes, a single identifiable employee rents the car. But that isn't the question. The question is whether other employees of the same renting company can drive the car without being specifically identified to the car rental company. I believe they can, and your post doesn't indicate that they cannot.

From the manual - Authorized Drivers. Persons authorized to operate vehicles rented under this Agreement, if properly licensed, include the renter, and without additional charge, the renter's fellow employees while acting within the scope of their employment duties. Such additional drivers need not be listed on the rental agreement.

So the renter has to be a part of the party, if you will. So while I could rent a car and hand the keys over to a team mate, I can't just hand them to anyone in the building.

The notion that some "pencil pusher" is renting cars from the bowels of the government and passing them out like candy is just not how it works. Agent Smith, so long as he is on the travel documents, can rent the car and share it with his fellow agents. But it's not going to be someone not on the trip, or in a bunker somewhere getting directives from the "Executive Branch."

Leftus · 24th July 2020, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Govt pencil pusher Smith rents minivan online. This can happen.

Coffee boy Bob picks up reserved minivan, showing his license. This can also happen.

Stormtroopers without badges or nametags, but with full head and face covering per OP video, board and hit the streets.

How is the DA going to charge anyone again?

Conspiracy. Change "car rental" to "bomb parts" and the logic remains sound. Since they both ignored, or intentionally flouted GSA rules and guidelines in vehicle procurement, they don't come in with clean hands.

Govt. Paper pusher Smith knows this because he underwent some training when getting the credit card.

If you'd read the rules, perhaps you can build a scenario that follows them : https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/Do...lAgreement.pdf

Mumbles · 24th July 2020, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Of course it works. Sometimes a spade is a spade. And sometimes hyperbole drives the point home.

Exactly. Godwin's law isn't any sort of fallacy, just a rule of thumb that says that the chance of someone mentioning hitler approaches 1 the longer the argument gets. When someone on Twitter tried to invoke it concerning Richard Spencer the Human Speedbag, Michael Godwin chimed it that it was completely appropriate, since Spencer was clearly styling himself as a nazi.

Gulliver Foyle · 24th July 2020, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

As a follow up, to the video, Cline also noted that there are three officers who have eye injuries because of the laser attacks, and they may not recover sight in those eyes. Having three officers facing potential partial blindness was likely a primary reason to question the suspect in the van abduction incident. He also noted that the more violent protesters have begun talking about attacking the water supplies for the Federal Courthouse building. That is not even mentioning the comments I have seen of people wanting to kidnap or kill officers in retaliation for the van abduction incident.

One of the clear problems is that you have people attacking officers without a good way for the agents protecting the building to make arrests in a safe way without the more violent protesters becoming more violent. To be clear, I am sure that the FPS and CBP officers would be more than happy to stay in the courthouse if they were not being attacked every night.

The Navy veteran being attacked and having his hand broken for asking the officers a question was pretty horrific. However, from the news, I had the impression that officers were roaming around neighborhoods looking for people dressed in black to abduct and question. Now that I know more information on the background, I think it is pretty irresponsible for the news and the Mayor to be goading on the violence for click bait and likes.

It's Mayor Wheeler's city that is being destroyed, and he bears a lot of responsibility for all of the boarded up businesses. With 52 nights of straight violent protests, you can be pretty sure that there will be violence at the Courthouse on night 53, or 60, or 75, and maybe even 100. It is incredibly likely that there will be at least a few deaths in the time with the escalating violence, and the Mayor is almost entirely responsible for allowing the violence to continue. He could absolutely support and encourage peaceful protests while stopping the violent ones.

If the Mayor wanted, he could stop the violence at the Courthouse both to and from the CBP officers by setting up a setback zone, and declaring areas a riot as soon as they become violent.

If the protesters wanted their message to not be hijacked and stay peaceful, they could set up their own setback zone.

I definitely agree with holding the CBP accountable, but Wheeler needs some accountability too. Wheeler and the Governor are making a conscious choice to allow the violence to continue, and they are just as responsible if not more than the CBP officer who broke the Navy veteran, Christopher David's hand.

Lots of people who in Germany in February 1933 were talking as you are now ended up in the Konzentrationslagers.

Here's hoping you never become an "enemy of the state".

Minoosh · 24th July 2020, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Leftus

If you'd read the rules, perhaps you can build a scenario that follows them : https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/Do...lAgreement.pdf

Was the Defense Department even involved?

Brainster · 24th July 2020, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Should we never make the comparison because it's usually hyperbolic?

No of course not. But it would help if we knew which was which. Maybe you could tell us that this time, you really really really really really, really mean it, cross your heart and hope to die, and all those other times were just tests to see if we were awake.

Belz... · 24th July 2020, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

No of course not. But it would help if we knew which was which. Maybe you could tell us that this time, you really really really really really, really mean it, cross your heart and hope to die, and all those other times were just tests to see if we were awake.

I think you have me confused with another poster.

Leftus · 24th July 2020, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Was the Defense Department even involved?

Oddly, those rules govern my non DOD agency when it comes to rentals.

They are the general rules, and it was the most public version I could find.

Ziggurat · 24th July 2020, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Leftus

If you'd read the rules, perhaps you can build a scenario that follows them : https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/Do...lAgreement.pdf

Page 5 (hilight mine):

15. Authorized Drivers. Persons authorized to operate vehicles rented under this Agreement, if properly licensed, include the renter, and without additional charge, the renter's fellow Government travelers in official travel status while acting within the scope of their employment duties. Such additional drivers need not be listed on the rental agreement.

How would the scenario detailed above violate the rules?

Brainster · 24th July 2020, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I think you have me confused with another poster.

I was using the royal you, much as you used the royal we:

Quote:

Should we never make the comparison because it's usually hyperbolic?

Belz... · 24th July 2020, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

I was using the royal you, much as you used the royal we:

No, I was using the regular "we".

3point14 · 24th July 2020, 03:08 PM

This reddit post with accompanying video is entitles 'Portland is a Warzone'.

After watching the video, it's hard to argue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._is_a_warzone/

HoverBoarder · 24th July 2020, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

This reddit post with accompanying video is entitles 'Portland is a Warzone'.

After watching the video, it's hard to argue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._is_a_warzone/

Well Mayor Wheeler, this is completely your making. Hope that it is everything that you wished for.

3point14 · 24th July 2020, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

Well Mayor Wheeler, this is completely your making. Hope that it is everything that you wished for.

Is he one of the blokes chucking teargas and firing rubber bullets? Or one of those dangerously wielding umbrellas and leaf blowers? Sorry, I've not been keepig track.

HoverBoarder · 24th July 2020, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Is he one of the blokes chucking teargas and firing rubber bullets? Or one of those dangerously wielding umbrellas and leaf blowers? Sorry, I've not been keepig track.

He's the one who put the dance partners together, and watched his ballet unfold. He definitely could have at any point heeded all of the repeated calls to deescalate the situation, and set up a setback zone. There is a very specific reason that he is purposefully refusing to do that. The same reason that Trump is using the violence for his own personal political goals as well.

He sees people setting fires, he see the CPB respond, and chooses to encourage the violence to continue. His teargas stunt was pretty well planned for a photo-op. Kind of like those people who do dumb stuff on Youtube for views and likes.

Anyone remember this?

Quote:

PORTLAND, Ore. — In a press conference held Monday morning after a third night of protests in Portland, Mayor Ted Wheeler asked Oregon Gov. Kate Brown to activate the National Guard to help protect facilities in the city.

Wheeler said he already asked Brown "three or four times" Sunday for the National Guard's support.

"The governor had alternative strategies that she suggested, including deploying more state police resources," Wheeler said.

He said although Brown denied his request to deploy the National Guard, she did agree to granting additional tools law enforcement could use in the field.

After what Wheeler saw happen Sunday night, he said he would like to repeat his request for the National Guard to help protect Portland.

"We do need more resources, more people, more personnel," he said.

"Last night, a small number of demonstrators provoked conflict. Last night, a small handful of rioters continued to hurt our city. They were violent. They harassed reporters and threatened our first responders."

HoverBoarder · 24th July 2020, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by KATU news

In a press conference held Monday morning after a third night of protests in Portland, Mayor Ted Wheeler asked Oregon Gov. Kate Brown to activate the National Guard to help protect facilities in the city...

Wheeler said he understands that the National Guard members would only be responsible for protecting facilities. He said their assistance would free up local law enforcement to address crowd management.

"If we pour energy into preventing tragic outcomes at protests every night, we are diverting energy from justice," Wheeler said. "We must reach a day when we can stand before you and say, 'Portland is safe,' and have that ring true for our black community."

U.S. attorney for the district of Oregon Billy Williams emphasized the mayor's request saying, "What I saw at the Justice Center and courthouse this morning is sickening... We need more numbers to stop this ridiculous violence. This just cannot keep up."

Man, third night of protests... How many hospitalized people and boarded up businesses ago was that?

SezMe · 24th July 2020, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

Read the second line of my sig.

I have sigs turned off (I'm not sure why anyone would leave them on) and it's not worth looking you up. What's your point?

24th July 2020, 04:37 AM	#321
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,374	Originally Posted by rockinkt Nothing. Never has been anything to stop some pack of random idiots from dressing up and pulling the same stunt in the US or Canada or any other country. What's your point? I think his point is that given the lack of official police badge and procedure it makes it easier for would-be evildoers to get away with this sort of thing, were they tempted to.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th July 2020, 05:34 AM	#322
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,414	Originally Posted by rockinkt Hilarious! Do you write a lot of comedy bits professionally or is this just a hobby? They did it in NYC protests. And in DC. And in Oakland. And in Sanford. And in the CHOP And in Baltimore - there were no protests at all when the cops ambushed a large group of teenager traveling home from their high schools We did it in Boston. You've plainly never even seen a civil rights protest before - if you did, you'd know that groups like BLM, National Action Network, SPLC, and numerous churches, discuss exactly how to do this, and mostly have since their inception. And frankly, you sound like one of those bigots that accused MLK Jr or *"rioting" back in the 50s and 60s.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,414	Last edited by Mumbles; 24th July 2020 at 05:38 AM.

24th July 2020, 05:36 AM	#323
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,414	Originally Posted by Belz... I think his point is that given the lack of official police badge and procedure it makes it easier for would-be evildoers to get away with this sort of thing, were they tempted to. Much easier - also, with no identifying markers, and police wearing the exact same pseudomilitary crap that white supremacists and other gun fondlers like to dress up in, there's no real way to tell the difference between them.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,414

24th July 2020, 05:44 AM	#324
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,171	Originally Posted by Mumbles Much easier - also, with no identifying markers, and police wearing the exact same pseudomilitary crap that white supremacists and other gun fondlers like to dress up in, there's no real way to tell the difference between them. The Proud Boys and Boogaloos usually have 4-5 more rifles hanging off each of their shoulders, but other than that....
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.

24th July 2020, 07:23 AM	#326
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425	Originally Posted by Thermal They could. I doubt they'd go anywhere. For instance, the renter of record was presumably under orders to rent a minivan on behalf of the Executive Branch. I'd love to hear how this pencil-pusher is going to be argued into being a conspirator That's not how it works. The person renting the vehicle would be physically there, and not in some dark corner of a building in DC. They would have to be physically there to present the Credit Card, take possession of the rental and the keys. He would then have to hand the keys off, against GSA rules, to the nefarious actors. Why the use of the Executive Branch? Why not just the actual agency? Been working for various federal agencies for 12 years now. I've received exactly ZERO communications directly from the "Executive Branch." Sure, some spam from agency heads, but directives? Honestly, it's close to a conspiracy theory.
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425

24th July 2020, 06:13 AM	#325
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,234	Originally Posted by HoverBoarder You think they went away to sip tea, and watch the rest of this peacefully on TV? Saying, "same" means idea identical. Therefore, the only people that are the same as the people you describe, are the actual limited people that did the deed. As not all the protestors did it,the other crowd is not the same.

24th July 2020, 07:31 AM	#327
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,069	CNN has a decent summary of what's gone down, hitting the major points without the hysterics https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/24/polit...ump/index.html
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,069

24th July 2020, 07:45 AM	#328
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,511	Originally Posted by Leftus That's not how it works. The person renting the vehicle would be physically there, and not in some dark corner of a building in DC. They would have to be physically there to present the Credit Card, take possession of the rental and the keys. He would then have to hand the keys off, against GSA rules, to the nefarious actors. Why the use of the Executive Branch? Why not just the actual agency? Been working for various federal agencies for 12 years now. I've received exactly ZERO communications directly from the "Executive Branch." Sure, some spam from agency heads, but directives? Honestly, it's close to a conspiracy theory. Not sure what kind of rentals you have worked with, but I personally have picked up rental cars reserved online by others without showing a card. Drivers license, of course. So as I have been saying, the Philly DA has little to work with but violating the rental driver agreement, which im pretty sure the feds could handle. The warm bodies to charge, and who ordered who to do what and under who's authority, remains toothless. Executive branch used as shorthand, because we know the buck will stop there and provide its resources to any accused security agency.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Last edited by Thermal; 24th July 2020 at 07:47 AM.

24th July 2020, 07:50 AM	#329
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,129	Originally Posted by Leftus That's not how it works. The person renting the vehicle would be physically there, and not in some dark corner of a building in DC. They would have to be physically there to present the Credit Card, take possession of the rental and the keys. He would then have to hand the keys off, against GSA rules, to the nefarious actors. Suppose I rent a car, and suppose that car gets flagged for running a red light by a red light camera. The police call the rental car company, and they give the police my name. Now, I can try to claim that "it wasn't me who was driving," but you better believe I am not going to get away with it unless I can provide a viable explanation for who was driving. Many rental car companies even require you to identify all those who will be driving the car. So don't anybody give us this "they can't trace the car because they don't know the person who rented it will be driving it" nonsense. That's not how it works. As you point out, the person who rented the car knows who's in it. If it wasn't them who is doing it, then they need to explain why the car they rented was used in this way. And that includes things like, saying who did it.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

24th July 2020, 08:04 AM	#330
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,511	Border Patrol Agent Bob, who normally is the coffee boy, picks up the rented van as ordered. His superior demands the keys and Bob does not see them again till it is time to return it. Bob may or may not be charged with whatever Hertz' penalty is for violating the rental agreement. Any requests regarding the orders Bob received and who ended up driving are evaded/'thats classified' etc
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

24th July 2020, 08:08 AM	#331
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,511	Also, I still don't get the rented minivan thing. The Military, Homeland etc have a rather staggering budget. They're down to renting minivans like a siburban family on vacation?
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

24th July 2020, 08:19 AM	#332
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,329	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Many rental car companies even require you to identify all those who will be driving the car. Everyone keeps saying that, but I don't think it's actually true. I believe that for many corporate accounts, you do not need to specify all drivers. It suffices that they are employees of the company authorized to drive the car. The federal government rents cars on a corporate account.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

24th July 2020, 09:02 AM	#333
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The federal government rents cars on a corporate account. No, when it's rented, it's rented on a GSA issued visa card in the name of the Employee. It's always linked to an employee, who is ultimately responsible for the spending on the card. Without this accounting, it would be all but impossible to determine legit from illegitimate chargers. Cards issued to purchase office supplies are issued to individuals, and not to a nameless corporate account. I've rented a few cars for Official government work. I'm fairly familiar with the rules and still have the card. For the record, I can't even use the card and pay it off, thus incurring no costs for the government. That would be wrong, and I would lose the privilege of having the card. The GSA does maintain a fleet, but there are none in Oregon, they would have had to driven down from Washington.
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425

24th July 2020, 09:07 AM	#334
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,329	Originally Posted by Leftus No, when it's rented, it's rented on a GSA issued visa card in the name of the Employee. It's always linked to an employee, who is ultimately responsible for the spending on the card. Yes, a single identifiable employee rents the car. But that isn't the question. The question is whether other employees of the same renting company can drive the car without being specifically identified to the car rental company. I believe they can, and your post doesn't indicate that they cannot.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

24th July 2020, 09:12 AM	#335
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,511	Govt pencil pusher Smith rents minivan online. This can happen. Coffee boy Bob picks up reserved minivan, showing his license. This can also happen. Stormtroopers without badges or nametags, but with full head and face covering per OP video, board and hit the streets. How is the DA going to charge anyone again?
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

24th July 2020, 09:27 AM	#336
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,374	Why is this thread about rental cars now?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th July 2020, 09:37 AM	#337
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,234	Originally Posted by Thermal Govt pencil pusher Smith rents minivan online. This can happen. Coffee boy Bob picks up reserved minivan, showing his license. This can also happen. Stormtroopers without badges or nametags, but with full head and face covering per OP video, board and hit the streets. How is the DA going to charge anyone again? Im a terrible coffee boy.

24th July 2020, 09:48 AM	#338
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,129	Originally Posted by Belz... Why is this thread about rental cars now? Because some feel a need to find a way to avoid holding Nazi storm troopers responsible for their action.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

24th July 2020, 09:59 AM	#339
BStrong Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 13,079	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing. snipped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty *"The four boxes of liberty is an idea that proposes: "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."* When the gov.org proposes to take all the (whatevers) into custody and hold them without due process of law it's time to gear up. Arresting rioters doesn't qualify. Read the second line of my sig.
	__________________ Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus

24th July 2020, 10:28 AM	#340
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,329	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Because some feel a need to find a way to avoid holding Nazi storm troopers responsible for their action. I wonder when people will figure out that Godwining doesn't work.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

24th July 2020, 10:29 AM	#341
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,374	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I wonder when people will figure out that Godwining doesn't work. Of course it works. Sometimes a spade is a spade. And sometimes hyperbole drives the point home.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th July 2020, 11:04 AM	#342
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,306	Originally Posted by Belz... Of course it works. Sometimes a spade is a spade. And sometimes hyperbole drives the point home. And the other 99.9% of the time....
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

24th July 2020, 11:13 AM	#343
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,374	Originally Posted by Brainster And the other 99.9% of the time.... Should we never make the comparison because it's usually hyperbolic?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th July 2020, 11:39 AM	#344
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Yes, a single identifiable employee rents the car. But that isn't the question. The question is whether other employees of the same renting company can drive the car without being specifically identified to the car rental company. I believe they can, and your post doesn't indicate that they cannot. From the manual - Authorized Drivers. Persons authorized to operate vehicles rented under this Agreement, if properly licensed, include the renter, and without additional charge, the renter's fellow employees while acting within the scope of their employment duties. Such additional drivers need not be listed on the rental agreement. So the renter has to be a part of the party, if you will. So while I could rent a car and hand the keys over to a team mate, I can't just hand them to anyone in the building. The notion that some "pencil pusher" is renting cars from the bowels of the government and passing them out like candy is just not how it works. Agent Smith, so long as he is on the travel documents, can rent the car and share it with his fellow agents. But it's not going to be someone not on the trip, or in a bunker somewhere getting directives from the "Executive Branch."
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425

24th July 2020, 11:42 AM	#345
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425	Originally Posted by Thermal Govt pencil pusher Smith rents minivan online. This can happen. Coffee boy Bob picks up reserved minivan, showing his license. This can also happen. Stormtroopers without badges or nametags, but with full head and face covering per OP video, board and hit the streets. How is the DA going to charge anyone again? Conspiracy. Change "car rental" to "bomb parts" and the logic remains sound. Since they both ignored, or intentionally flouted GSA rules and guidelines in vehicle procurement, they don't come in with clean hands. Govt. Paper pusher Smith knows this because he underwent some training when getting the credit card. If you'd read the rules, perhaps you can build a scenario that follows them : https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/Do...lAgreement.pdf
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425	Last edited by Leftus; 24th July 2020 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Adding source

24th July 2020, 12:45 PM	#346
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,414	Originally Posted by Belz... Of course it works. Sometimes a spade is a spade. And sometimes hyperbole drives the point home. Exactly. Godwin's law isn't any sort of fallacy, just a rule of thumb that says that the chance of someone mentioning hitler approaches 1 the longer the argument gets. When someone on Twitter tried to invoke it concerning Richard Spencer the Human Speedbag, Michael Godwin chimed it that it was completely appropriate, since Spencer was clearly styling himself as a nazi.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,414

24th July 2020, 12:59 PM	#347
Gulliver Foyle Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 360	Originally Posted by HoverBoarder As a follow up, to the video, Cline also noted that there are three officers who have eye injuries because of the laser attacks, and they may not recover sight in those eyes. Having three officers facing potential partial blindness was likely a primary reason to question the suspect in the van abduction incident. He also noted that the more violent protesters have begun talking about attacking the water supplies for the Federal Courthouse building. That is not even mentioning the comments I have seen of people wanting to kidnap or kill officers in retaliation for the van abduction incident. One of the clear problems is that you have people attacking officers without a good way for the agents protecting the building to make arrests in a safe way without the more violent protesters becoming more violent. To be clear, I am sure that the FPS and CBP officers would be more than happy to stay in the courthouse if they were not being attacked every night. The Navy veteran being attacked and having his hand broken for asking the officers a question was pretty horrific. However, from the news, I had the impression that officers were roaming around neighborhoods looking for people dressed in black to abduct and question. Now that I know more information on the background, I think it is pretty irresponsible for the news and the Mayor to be goading on the violence for click bait and likes. It's Mayor Wheeler's city that is being destroyed, and he bears a lot of responsibility for all of the boarded up businesses. With 52 nights of straight violent protests, you can be pretty sure that there will be violence at the Courthouse on night 53, or 60, or 75, and maybe even 100. It is incredibly likely that there will be at least a few deaths in the time with the escalating violence, and the Mayor is almost entirely responsible for allowing the violence to continue. He could absolutely support and encourage peaceful protests while stopping the violent ones. If the Mayor wanted, he could stop the violence at the Courthouse both to and from the CBP officers by setting up a setback zone, and declaring areas a riot as soon as they become violent. If the protesters wanted their message to not be hijacked and stay peaceful, they could set up their own setback zone. I definitely agree with holding the CBP accountable, but Wheeler needs some accountability too. Wheeler and the Governor are making a conscious choice to allow the violence to continue, and they are just as responsible if not more than the CBP officer who broke the Navy veteran, Christopher David's hand. Lots of people who in Germany in February 1933 were talking as you are now ended up in the Konzentrationslagers. Here's hoping you never become an "enemy of the state".

24th July 2020, 01:01 PM	#348
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,238	Originally Posted by Leftus If you'd read the rules, perhaps you can build a scenario that follows them : https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/Do...lAgreement.pdf Was the Defense Department even involved?

24th July 2020, 01:20 PM	#349
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,306	Originally Posted by Belz... Should we never make the comparison because it's usually hyperbolic? No of course not. But it would help if we knew which was which. Maybe you could tell us that this time, you really really really really really, really mean it, cross your heart and hope to die, and all those other times were just tests to see if we were awake.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

24th July 2020, 01:21 PM	#350
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,374	Originally Posted by Brainster No of course not. But it would help if we knew which was which. Maybe you could tell us that this time, you really really really really really, really mean it, cross your heart and hope to die, and all those other times were just tests to see if we were awake. I think you have me confused with another poster.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th July 2020, 01:26 PM	#351
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425	Originally Posted by Minoosh Was the Defense Department even involved? Oddly, those rules govern my non DOD agency when it comes to rentals. They are the general rules, and it was the most public version I could find.
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,425

24th July 2020, 02:13 PM	#352
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,329	Originally Posted by Leftus If you'd read the rules, perhaps you can build a scenario that follows them : https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/Do...lAgreement.pdf Page 5 (hilight mine): 15. Authorized Drivers. Persons authorized to operate vehicles rented under this Agreement, if properly licensed, include the renter, and without additional charge, the renter's fellow Government travelers in official travel status while acting within the scope of their employment duties. Such additional drivers need not be listed on the rental agreement. How would the scenario detailed above violate the rules?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

24th July 2020, 02:21 PM	#353
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,306	Originally Posted by Belz... I think you have me confused with another poster. I was using the royal you, much as you used the royal we: Quote: Should we never make the comparison because it's usually hyperbolic?
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

24th July 2020, 02:24 PM	#354
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,374	Originally Posted by Brainster I was using the royal you, much as you used the royal we: No, I was using the regular "we".
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th July 2020, 03:08 PM	#355
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,591	This reddit post with accompanying video is entitles 'Portland is a Warzone'. After watching the video, it's hard to argue. https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._is_a_warzone/
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,591	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]