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Tags Iran incidents , Qasem Soleimani , Trump controversies , US-Iran relations

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Old 16th January 2020, 07:44 PM   #1721
TragicMonkey
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Sigh. Don't we already have a thread dedicated to Trump's insanity? It's bad enough his madness bleeds from that into his presidency and impeachment threads, but now it's infected Iran.
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Old 16th January 2020, 08:41 PM   #1722
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Sigh. Don't we already have a thread dedicated to Trump's insanity? It's bad enough his madness bleeds from that into his presidency and impeachment threads, but now it's infected Iran.
That's fair. I felt that it was reasonable thread drift, but I'll stop talking about it here.
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Old 17th January 2020, 09:10 AM   #1723
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Furthermore, the argument is being made that this falls under the Iraq AUMF.
https://www.justsecurity.org/67993/w...apply-to-iran/
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Old 17th January 2020, 09:51 AM   #1724
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post


Okay.

In the situation of capturing Bin Laden, I would expect that there would be a certain amount of resistance from his own troops, and my forces should be prepared for that. His troops would presumably be resisting with deadly force (since neither they nor he share my moral code), so my forces will probably need to defend themselves with deadly force in order to carry out the mission, which is to capture Bin Laden alive. Presumably my forces also do not share my moral code, since someone with my moral code would never, ever join the military, so they will have no moral qualms about doing so. I would feel guilty for ordering them to take human life in order to carry out the mission.

Happy? Have you forced me to compromise my principles sufficiently enough to be satisfied? Or do you have more wildly improbably hypotheticals you want to torture me with? 'Cause like I said, this hypothetical will not and can not ever happen, even in principle. My moral position will never be tested in this way so I don't even know why you're insisting on it.
The arrest of bin Laden was a hypothetical you accepted and engaged with. I don't think it's wildly improbable at all. Something very close to it actually happened in the real world.

And no, I'm not happy. I never expected you to compromise your principles. I was surprised you opted for attempting arrest, rather than leaving him be. Mainly I was just curious how you reconciled the pretty clear risk of killing with your principle of not killing.

I expected you say either, "good point; actually I don't believe arresting bin Laden was so important as to justify getting people killed in the process", or "as much as I believe killing is never moral, I believe that arresting bin Laden would have been worth that risk - immoral but necessary, so to speak."

I did not expect you to spend a couple days running away from those options, and then give up, choose neither, and compromise your principles instead. I'm really sorry you felt that you had no other choice.
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Old 17th January 2020, 09:57 AM   #1725
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
And the term of art for the tactic being deployed on you, I believe, is a "barrage of edge cases."
There was only ever one case: arresting vs killing bin Laden. The case was proposed, and Arth freely chose to engage with it. All that happened after that was some discussion about how Arth's proposal of arrest squares with his stated principle of not killing people.

And it's not really an edge case at all. There's nothing "edge case" about the possibility that bin Laden would resist arrest. That's pretty straightforward. It's also a fairly common scenario that any hostage rescue team, police SWAT unit, etc. has to prepare for as a basic part of their duties.

No barrage, no edge cases. Just one scenario that arth agreed to up front, and one question about how he would handle that scenario.
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Old 17th January 2020, 09:58 AM   #1726
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A five year medical doctorate with a speciality in psychology and psychotherapy and practical experience working as a mental health professional.

You knew that.
No, I didn't know that. I have my own opinions, which square with that. I have no way of knowing in advance if those are your opinions, or what you mean by "irresponsible".
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Old 17th January 2020, 10:37 AM   #1727
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There's still escalation of force doctrine if it was a military operation. Then we're back to "imminent threat."

Still not sure why taking out a leader/trainer of those who will carry out an attack that is "imminent" stops the attack. The general's role in it is kinda over by then.
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Old 18th January 2020, 09:41 AM   #1728
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In a speech on Friday, Trump claimed that he took the decision to kill Soleimani because he was "saying bad things about our country"
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Old 18th January 2020, 06:15 PM   #1729
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The really worrying thing is that he thought,
Quote:
Soleimani was meeting "the head of Hezbollah"
a completely different organisation (based in Lebanon) from the actual organization; Kata'ib Hezbollah an Iraqi based militia integrated into the Iraqi army. So it appears that not only was Soleimani assassinated on a possible peace mission for saying bad things about the US in the past but under the misapprehension that the other person with him was someone different. That Trump does not understand these are completely different organisations when this appears to be part of the reasoning for ordering people killed is worrying.
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Old 18th January 2020, 06:35 PM   #1730
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The really worrying thing is that he thought,
a completely different organisation (based in Lebanon) from the actual organization; Kata'ib Hezbollah an Iraqi based militia integrated into the Iraqi army. So it appears that not only was Soleimani assassinated on a possible peace mission for saying bad things about the US in the past but under the misapprehension that the other person with him was someone different. That Trump does not understand these are completely different organisations when this appears to be part of the reasoning for ordering people killed is worrying.
He was supposedly talking to high-level GOP donors, who possibly are not as bat-crap crazy as he is, which is a good thing. I'm all for him sounding like a lunatic to people he's trying to hit up for money.

However I have no idea why you think this was a possible peace mission.

I wonder if it stokes his paranoia to know someone furnished audio to CNN.
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Old 18th January 2020, 07:31 PM   #1731
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
He was supposedly talking to high-level GOP donors, who possibly are not as bat-crap crazy as he is, which is a good thing. I'm all for him sounding like a lunatic to people he's trying to hit up for money.

However I have no idea why you think this was a possible peace mission.

I wonder if it stokes his paranoia to know someone furnished audio to CNN.
Previously discussed in this thread. For instance see here;
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9272901.html
Iraq was mediating between Saudi and Iran, US was aware, Soleimani had been invited to Baghdad to discuss a response to a Saudi proposition.

The assassination seems to have stymied the Iran / Saudi discussions for the present.
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Old 18th January 2020, 08:48 PM   #1732
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Previously discussed in this thread. For instance see here;
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9272901.html
Iraq was mediating between Saudi and Iran, US was aware, Soleimani had been invited to Baghdad to discuss a response to a Saudi proposition.

The assassination seems to have stymied the Iran / Saudi discussions for the present.


If Trump was smarter I would suggest that this was part of his plan. More likely it was the plan of someone who encouraged him to authorize the assassination.
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Old 18th January 2020, 09:08 PM   #1733
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Previously discussed in this thread. For instance see here;
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9272901.html
Iraq was mediating between Saudi and Iran, US was aware, Soleimani had been invited to Baghdad to discuss a response to a Saudi proposition.

The assassination seems to have stymied the Iran / Saudi discussions for the present.
Thanks for the link. Now I see why you said that. I thought I'd read the whole thread. But: I seriously doubt if that was the only reason for Soleimani's visit.
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Old 18th January 2020, 09:14 PM   #1734
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post

If Trump was smarter I would suggest that this was part of his plan. More likely it was the plan of someone who encouraged him to authorize the assassination.
But why? What would the U.S. gain from disrupting purported Saudi/Iranian peace talks?
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Old 18th January 2020, 09:26 PM   #1735
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But why? What would the U.S. gain from disrupting purported Saudi/Iranian peace talks?
It is bad form to have your greatest enemy and your closest Middle East ally getting along. Changes the political scene significantly.
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Old 18th January 2020, 10:07 PM   #1736
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It is bad form to have your greatest enemy and your closest Middle East ally getting along. Changes the political scene significantly.
You think Iran is the US's "greatest enemy"?
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Old 18th January 2020, 11:30 PM   #1737
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You think Iran is the US's "greatest enemy"?
Sorry. Poorly written. That was intended to say greatest Middle East enemy and closest Middle East ally
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Old 19th January 2020, 01:31 PM   #1738
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The latest edition of "False Flag Weekly News" has one of the most brave US-Americans and one of the most brave Canadians talking about this dilemma.

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Old 19th January 2020, 08:04 PM   #1739
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The arrest of bin Laden was a hypothetical you accepted and engaged with. I don't think it's wildly improbable at all. Something very close to it actually happened in the real world.
What was improbable was that I would be in charge of it.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And no, I'm not happy. I never expected you to compromise your principles. I was surprised you opted for attempting arrest, rather than leaving him be. Mainly I was just curious how you reconciled the pretty clear risk of killing with your principle of not killing.

I expected you say either, "good point; actually I don't believe arresting bin Laden was so important as to justify getting people killed in the process", or "as much as I believe killing is never moral, I believe that arresting bin Laden would have been worth that risk - immoral but necessary, so to speak."
I answered your question, however reluctantly, and you're still not happy?

For the record, that second one is basically what I said, though in fewer words.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No, I didn't know that. I have my own opinions, which square with that. I have no way of knowing in advance if those are your opinions, or what you mean by "irresponsible".
I'm not speaking a different language here. Words mean what they mean.
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Old 20th January 2020, 06:26 AM   #1740
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Words mean what they mean.


So, "I put a boot in my trunk" and "I put a trunk in my boot" mean the same thing!


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Old 20th January 2020, 06:46 AM   #1741
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
...
Thank you for the daily dosage of Russian troll approved content.
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Old 20th January 2020, 08:15 AM   #1742
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I'll put this in the Trump win column.

Dead Terrorist
Iran impotent response
Probably got some great detail on movements to locate nuclear facilities, once they thought they might be getting attacked.
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Old 20th January 2020, 08:48 AM   #1743
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I'll put this in the Trump win column.

Dead Terrorist
Iran impotent response
Probably got some great detail on movements to locate nuclear facilities, once they thought they might be getting attacked.
We know they have 2 uranium mines, a research reactor, an enrichment facility, a waste site, and other infrastructure.

Are you meaning some super-secret weapons facility that would violate their multilateral agreement (that we are no longer part of)?

Does one even exist?
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Old 20th January 2020, 10:08 AM   #1744
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Sorry. Poorly written. That was intended to say greatest Middle East enemy and closest Middle East ally
Those are both the Saudi's though.
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Old 20th January 2020, 12:23 PM   #1745
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Those are both the Saudi's though.
I would think the biggest U.S. ally in the Middle East would be Israel. Or maybe, as per Trump, Israel is not in the Middle East.
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Old 20th January 2020, 01:08 PM   #1746
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I would think the biggest U.S. ally in the Middle East would be Israel.
Especially considering they both share Satan status.
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Old 20th January 2020, 01:42 PM   #1747
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I would think the biggest U.S. ally in the Middle East would be Israel. Or maybe, as per Trump, Israel is not in the Middle East.
In normal times, yes. But this is the Trump era. SA has lots of oil, and they have money to buy lots of american military gear.
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Old 20th January 2020, 06:05 PM   #1748
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In normal times, yes.But this is the Trump era. SA has lots of oil, and they have money to buy lots of american military gear.
Does this really have much to do with Trump? I thought it was par for the course.
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Old 20th January 2020, 07:00 PM   #1749
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Does this really have much to do with Trump? I thought it was par for the course.
Yup.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/au7hpz...s-and-billions

This clip is about 12 years old and it covers the 3 decades before it.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 20th January 2020 at 07:08 PM.
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