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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM   #761
Skeptic Ginger
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Everyone is starting to bash the candidates they don't want to win. It was no different in the 2016 primaries. Look at how many Republicans trashed Trump then and now kiss his ass.

Clinton and Obama fought, then Clinton went to work with him.

Here's from the Clinton interview about the new documentary:
Quote:
In the doc, you're brutally honest on Sanders: "He was in Congress for years. He had one senator support him. Nobody likes him, nobody wants to work with him, he got nothing done. He was a career politician. It's all just baloney and I feel so bad that people got sucked into it." That assessment still hold?

Yes, it does.
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Old Yesterday, 12:49 PM   #762
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So killaryous that the disgusting hag still hasn't understood how despised she herself is and can't keep her mouth shut. Bernie will love the free propaganda.
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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So killaryous that the disgusting hag still hasn't understood how despised she herself is and can't keep her mouth shut. Bernie will love the free propaganda.
That'd be much more clever if you didn't try to combine a good pun with a lame one.
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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Everyone is starting to bash the candidates they don't want to win. It was no different in the 2016 primaries. Look at how many Republicans trashed Trump then and now kiss his ass.

Clinton and Obama fought, then Clinton went to work with him.

Here's from the Clinton interview about the new documentary:
They are different beasts though. For the right, power exists for its own sake. it doesn't matter how they get it or who specifically wields it in their name, just that they have it.

the left is more likely to get discouraged and not come out if they don't get their specific candidate or policy.
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Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
They are different beasts though. For the right, power exists for its own sake. it doesn't matter how they get it or who specifically wields it in their name, just that they have it.

the left is more likely to get discouraged and not come out if they don't get their specific candidate or policy.
I'm not saying it's a good tactic. This is the second time Sanders has had to disown an action by his own staff.

I'm merely saying that Clinton not supporting Sanders is par for the course.
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Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM   #766
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Sometimes I feel like Bernie is too good a person for some of his ardent supporters.

Clinton needs to get over it, imo. Just give him a vote in November at least, no public endorsement necessary like he did for you.
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Old Yesterday, 03:32 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not saying it's a good tactic. This is the second time Sanders has had to disown an action by his own staff.

I'm merely saying that Clinton not supporting Sanders is par for the course.
Democratic leadership needs to get it through their $%^&ing skulls that this won't fly anymore.

They need to figure out something quick that is above having people cut each other on their way to the nomination.
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Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Democratic leadership needs to get it through their $%^&ing skulls that this won't fly anymore.

They need to figure out something quick that is above having people cut each other on their way to the nomination.
You ever wonder if maybe Democrats aren't any more intelligent or virtuous than anyone else?
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Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Everyone is starting to bash the candidates they don't want to win. It was no different in the 2016 primaries. Look at how many Republicans trashed Trump then and now kiss his ass.

Clinton and Obama fought, then Clinton went to work with him.

Here's from the Clinton interview about the new documentary:
To be honest...this is what I've heard for years, as an explanation for why he gets so few bills passed. It's usually blamed on his personality, but I have some strong doubts.

And about the Bernie Bros - given the number of people I know that actually favored him over Hillary until they were repeatedly attacked by slur-spewing fanatics, yeah, this is definitely true. They also heckled John Lewis, which frankly, makes me glad that Sanders lost. Sorry, you can't spend a year screeching "Bernie Marched with King!" at black folks, and then disrespect John Lewis.
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Old Yesterday, 05:03 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
To be honest...this is what I've heard for years, as an explanation for why he gets so few bills passed. It's usually blamed on his personality, but I have some strong doubts.

And about the Bernie Bros - given the number of people I know that actually favored him over Hillary until they were repeatedly attacked by slur-spewing fanatics, yeah, this is definitely true. They also heckled John Lewis, which frankly, makes me glad that Sanders lost. Sorry, you can't spend a year screeching "Bernie Marched with King!" at black folks, and then disrespect John Lewis.
It's a trade-off: Sanders has been consistent for decades.
Sanders is so single-minded he is unbending and gets nowhere.


As for the Bernie Bros, I'm reluctant to believe anything from that era given the troll and bots out there amplifying false stories or stories about a few radicals made to look like popular opinions.
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Old Yesterday, 05:32 PM   #771
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On the issue of the Senate, part of the issue with trying to measure someone's effectiveness or impact is that very little passes in the Senate.
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Old Yesterday, 05:41 PM   #772
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I just returned from a hell day in Manhattan and noted that Bloomberg petitioners were swarming Penn Station - must have been 50 - well scripted, very aggressive.
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Old Yesterday, 06:03 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a trade-off: Sanders has been consistent for decades.
Sanders is so single-minded he is unbending and gets nowhere.


As for the Bernie Bros, I'm reluctant to believe anything from that era given the troll and bots out there amplifying false stories or stories about a few radicals made to look like popular opinions.
Problem with Bernie is he comes off as the eternal Sixities radical who can't move on.
As for the bros, I don't like personality cults, period. And it's hard to deny a lot of Sanders followers are in full personality cult mode.
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Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with Bernie is he comes off as the eternal Sixities radical who can't move on.
As for the bros, I don't like personality cults, period. And it's hard to deny a lot of Sanders followers are in full personality cult mode.
For the record, I'm saying the information isn't reliable. That doesn't mean it is false or true.
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Old Yesterday, 06:59 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a trade-off: Sanders has been consistent for decades.
Sanders is so single-minded he is unbending and gets nowhere.
Well, you're not wrong.

I'd still think Warren would be the best choice right now, but I can't be sure.
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Old Yesterday, 07:29 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You ever wonder if maybe Democrats aren't any more intelligent or virtuous than anyone else?
Generally speaking, no. They're humans with biases, blind spots and all the other human frailties. However, there is one group, commonly known as the GOP, that has demonstrated way too much spinelessness, obsequious and misplaced fealty to Trump that they have, as a group, been found to have lost their moral compass.
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Old Yesterday, 07:31 PM   #777
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https://www.axios.com/mike-bloomberg...b3ca07a75.html

Fairly old news by now but it's still astonishing what this man Michael Bloomberg is doing and prepared to do to "get rid of Trump".
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Old Yesterday, 08:48 PM   #778
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
https://www.axios.com/mike-bloomberg...b3ca07a75.html

Fairly old news by now but it's still astonishing what this man Michael Bloomberg is doing and prepared to do to "get rid of Trump".
Not sure how that really works.

There's a cap of $5k on lateral contributions to other candidate committees.

Contributing from an individual committee to a party committee is unlimited. Early and mid-season drop outs can to forward their money up. When they say they are putting their money behind another candidate, they probably mean to their leadership PAC. Those who fade late can sometimes hit debt issues. Nearly every district can use more office equipment and other assets somewhere in the party, but that's little stuff. They usually have to sell their digital database. Even though the payout will settle all debts and give the burnt out principals a parting bonus, the party almost absolutely gets a sweetheart deal out of it.

I don't know if there are any rulings or opinions on paying staff in one committee to perform work for a different committee. Perhaps an in-kind contribution, though it would still have that $5k cap anyways.

It depends on the specifics of what he means.

A very jaded take is that rather than forward his cash up to the party to decide what to do with it, he will decided who works on what "for the party" which in reality means he can dictate what his "price" is for being cooperative and generous.

ETA: Taking in a few variations of verbiage in other articles, it seems like he would reorganize as a nonconnected PAC. Just like most PACs with a big stack of poker chips, you have to totally-not-make certain promises to them in order to get them to totally-not-coordinate with you.

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Old Yesterday, 09:25 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Not sure how that really works.

There's a cap of $5k on lateral contributions to other candidate committees.

Contributing from an individual committee to a party committee is unlimited. Early and mid-season drop outs can to forward their money up. When they say they are putting their money behind another candidate, they probably mean to their leadership PAC. Those who fade late can sometimes hit debt issues. Nearly every district can use more office equipment and other assets somewhere in the party, but that's little stuff. They usually have to sell their digital database. Even though the payout will settle all debts and give the burnt out principals a parting bonus, the party almost absolutely gets a sweetheart deal out of it.

I don't know if there are any rulings or opinions on paying staff in one committee to perform work for a different committee. Perhaps an in-kind contribution, though it would still have that $5k cap anyways.

It depends on the specifics of what he means.

A very jaded take is that rather than forward his cash up to the party to decide what to do with it, he will decided who works on what "for the party" which in reality means he can dictate what his "price" is for being cooperative and generous.

ETA: Taking in a few variations of verbiage in other articles, it seems like he would reorganize as a nonconnected PAC. Just like most PACs with a big stack of poker chips, you have to totally-not-make certain promises to them in order to get them to totally-not-coordinate with you.
You mean how will Bloomberg support other candidates if Bloomberg is not the candidate?

PACs and SuperPACs are pretty unlimited.
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Old Yesterday, 09:50 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
.....
ETA: Taking in a few variations of verbiage in other articles, it seems like he would reorganize as a nonconnected PAC. Just like most PACs with a big stack of poker chips, you have to totally-not-make certain promises to them in order to get them to totally-not-coordinate with you.
PACs are a mechanism to collect and spend donations. He can spend his own money on anything, including ads supporting other candidates.
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Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not saying it's a good tactic. This is the second time Sanders has had to disown an action by his own staff.

I'm merely saying that Clinton not supporting Sanders is par for the course.
Clinton's not running (yet). It would be statesperson-like for Clinton not to support any particular Democrat in the primaries, and if she did it might even hurt her choice. But it is small-minded and petty for her to go out of her way to trash Sanders, who she apparently thinks deprived her of an easy ride to the nomination.

Paradoxically, if she had actually drawn some lessons from Sanders' unexpected success, instead of blaming him for not getting out of her way, she might have beaten Trump in the states where it mattered.

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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with Bernie is he comes off as the eternal Sixities radical who can't move on.
So I have heard. Any examples?
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Old Yesterday, 10:49 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So I have heard. Any examples?
And is that really true for most of the country?
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Old Yesterday, 10:58 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with Bernie is he comes off as the eternal Sixities radical who can't move on.
As for the bros, I don't like personality cults, period. And it's hard to deny a lot of Sanders followers are in full personality cult mode.

Yet if you compare mainstream thinking now to the '60s, it's pretty clear that the society has moved a long way in his direction. He doesn't have to move on; the world is coming to him.

And I say it's hard to imagine Sanders inspiring a "cult." Again, other Democrats -- including Clinton in 2016 -- have moved in his direction on issues like universal health care and income/wealth inequality.
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Old Yesterday, 11:11 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
PACs are a mechanism to collect and spend donations. He can spend his own money on anything, including ads supporting other candidates.
Never suggested otherwise. ETA: Although specifically he has to donate his money to a PAC (it can be one he controls, that's fine) and then spend it on political activity. Doesn't matter if you are directly supporting someone or doing the "issue advocacy" sideways dance, money spent on political influence is tracked and followed and published (this can still be obscured by controlling how it enters the regulatory ecosystem).

I am suggesting that constitutes a form of leverage. I thought we didn't like dark money and being able to buy party influence.

I was also speaking more specifically of any contributions made to his principal campaign committee (the part that has more controls on it). I poked around to see what his haul is for that so far but his FEC filings appear to have not been processed yet.

Anyone can feel however they want about it.

I think my main issue is he's making wielding a PAC sound like a magnanimous gesture. I don't see things that way, regardless of who it is. The real audience for his announcement is DNC officials. He would like them to know he is an interested buyer and he would like a menu of options, please.

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Old Yesterday, 11:53 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yet if you compare mainstream thinking now to the '60s, it's pretty clear that the society has moved a long way in his direction. He doesn't have to move on; the world is coming to him.

And I say it's hard to imagine Sanders inspiring a "cult." Again, other Democrats -- including Clinton in 2016 -- have moved in his direction on issues like universal health care and income/wealth inequality.
Yeah, a lot of Sixties "Radicalism" involved crazy notions about black people being allowed to go to schools with white people and not being turned away from voting because well, you see, unless your grandfather could vote, you cant! He was a slave, you say? Well **** out of luck then.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 PM   #787
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I mean, maybe he comes across as "radical" to some, but not me (not that that matters).

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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old Today, 12:25 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I mean, maybe he comes across as "radical" to some, but not me (not that that matters).
It may be worth noting, again, that in many European countries, Bernie would be a fairly unremarkable center left politician.
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Old Today, 01:21 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It may be worth noting, again, that in many European countries, Bernie would be a fairly unremarkable center left politician.

True. Fits right in with traditional continental social democracy. Whose central idea - that capitalism has to be tamed, but not overcome like the socialists wanted -, may go back to the 60s, but that would be the 1860s. Nothing to do with sex and drugs and rock'n'roll or whatever the narrative managers are trying to associate poor Bernie with.
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Old Today, 01:55 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It may be worth noting, again, that in many European countries, Bernie would be a fairly unremarkable center left politician.
I don't think Sanders is wrong. Other countries with universal health care do spend less for better care than we have here in the US. By that measure, Sanders is very level headed and not an extremist.

My issue with him is not recognizing you have to get from A to Z in steps. And he believes the way he's going to do it is by stirring up an army of voters. He imagines the social revolution a lot of us imagined in the 60s-70s. It's a pipe dream the way Sanders imagines it happening.

It can happen. But it will take steps and another generation of two of motivated young people getting old enough to vote. And with that, another generation or two of people like Mitch McConnell dying off.
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Old Today, 05:18 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think Sanders is wrong. Other countries with universal health care do spend less for better care than we have here in the US. By that measure, Sanders is very level headed and not an extremist.

My issue with him is not recognizing you have to get from A to Z in steps. And he believes the way he's going to do it is by stirring up an army of voters. He imagines the social revolution a lot of us imagined in the 60s-70s. It's a pipe dream the way Sanders imagines it happening.

It can happen. But it will take steps and another generation of two of motivated young people getting old enough to vote. And with that, another generation or two of people like Mitch McConnell dying off.
You make it sound like the activism of the 60's was a naive failure.

The CRA acts was a political triumph and only happened because activists refused to accept "it's just not reasonable" as an answer to their demands.

Efforts to end segregation were widely considered radical and the activists pushing for change were seen unfavorably by many. Centrists insisting on orderliness and unity aren't capable of achieving the things that these "pipe dreamers" can.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...legacy-radical
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