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Tags benjamin netanyahu , corruption scandals , Israel issues , Israel politics , politics scandals

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Old 6th December 2019, 07:09 AM   #41
webfusion
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...What do you think of Netanyahu’s recent problems?

Tempest in a teacup.
Many Israelis are simply scratching their heads and wondering "Huh?!"

And the 'problems' he faces are not recent --- The Israel Police began investigating Netanyahu starting in December 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invest...amin_Netanyahu
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:17 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
...What do you think of Netanyahu’s recent problems?

Tempest in a teacup.
Many Israelis are simply scratching their heads and wondering "Huh?!"

And the 'problems' he faces are not recent --- The Israel Police began investigating Netanyahu starting in December 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invest...amin_Netanyahu
Being charged by the attorney general is certainly recent.......I’m sure his corrupt behaviour may be longer term. Possibly going back to childhood?
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:09 AM   #43
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His prior legal troubles are certainly a matter of record (you could have easily searched this information) --- Mr. Netanyahu came under scrutiny during his first term as Prime Minister in the 1990s.

https://www.law.columbia.edu/sites/d...u_finalpdf.pdf

and https://apnews.com/42d795e65dc14376ad6301aa99275987

At that time, although investigations resulted in the Israeli Police recommending two charges, neither case was pursued by the Attorney General.

Bibi has also appeared on television, admitting to adultery.

Last edited by webfusion; 6th December 2019 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Added information regarding the Ruth Barr affair.
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:06 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, I started looking at this forum a few years before I joined. Didn't spot any 'Likud apologists' accusing anyone of anti-semitism when they were merely giving valid criticism that could apply to anyone- but memory can be fallible.
If you have any examples of this, it would be interesting.
Either way, that's obviously not the case now, so you can put your mind at rest.
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
LOL....let me guess. It would be you that judges what is “valid criticism”?

I wont be spending any time providing examples for you to apply your pre prepared excuse to.
I would encourage you to take advantage of the forums excellent search system if you are interested in reviewing any of the posts you previously didn’t spot.....
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
What a peculiar thing to say.
No, of course not. That's why I posted a commonly-accepted definition of anti-semitism, so it could be used as a framework to decide if the criticism was valid, or actually anti-semitic.
Then we could discuss it. I know I joined this forum after you, so maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that that was the point of this forum: to discuss things.
How you got from what I said to the idea that I'm somehow appointing myself as sole arbiter, or that I would automatically come down against you, is a mystery to me.


In other words, you can't actually cite any examples, and instead are resorting to accusing me of doing something I have not actually done, nor would I actually do.
Very poor.



Again, I newer here than you, but I'm fairly sure that the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, which in this case would be you.
That, and Hitchens' Razor: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". Pretty sure that's been mentioned here before too.
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Sorry but you seem to not be paying attention one is asking for examples of fact....have people claimed two specific claims........the other is asking for examples that Require a judgement call if something is “valid criticism”

Your are not very good at this are you.....maybe Mycroft can coach you?
I've quoted most of the conversation here for the context.
You said people on this forum were accusing you of anti-semitism, when all you were doing was voicing what you thought was valid criticism.
I asked you for examples. You refused to provide them.
The only judgement call needed is your own. All you had to do was post something you thought was an attempt to use the accusation of anti-semitism to try to silence you. If you haven't already made that judgement, then I am left wondering why you would claim this has been happening, and apparently happening for years?
As for 'specific claims', perhaps you could suggest a search term I could use? I doubt that anything like 'Comments The Fool thinks are unfair' will give me any useful results.
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:26 PM   #45
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Speaking as someone who is strongly pro Israel, I say GOOD. About bloody time.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:56 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Speaking as someone who is strongly pro Israel, I say GOOD. About bloody time.
Agreed.
Netanyahu has been an obstacle to peace for years. Expanding settlements, assuming sovereignty over the Golan Heights, the laws about the Jewish nature of Israel etc., have all served to widen the divide between the two sides.
I can only hope that he is removed from office, so a more moderate and less obstructionist government can take power.
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Old 8th December 2019, 05:12 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Agreed.
Netanyahu has been an obstacle to peace for years. Expanding settlements, assuming sovereignty over the Golan Heights, the laws about the Jewish nature of Israel etc., have all served to widen the divide between the two sides.
I can only hope that he is removed from office, so a more moderate and less obstructionist government can take power.
Absolutely correct....well said.


And also...my apologies for ragging on you in this thread. I got out of Israel threads some time ago because I gat sick of the bickering so I don’t know why the hell I started doing it again.

Anyway.....my apologies.
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Last edited by The Fool; 8th December 2019 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 8th December 2019, 07:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
...I got out of Israel threads some time ago because I got sick of the bickering so I don’t know why the hell I started doing it again.
I kinda like to think that I've had something to do with your return!

As for 'bickering' --- In the MidEast, bickering is a 'hobby' of sorts, and sometimes it becomes fairly intense.
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I kinda like to think that I've had something to do with your return!

As for 'bickering' --- In the MidEast, bickering is a 'hobby' of sorts, and sometimes it becomes fairly intense.
Normally if you sacrifice a chicken I will appear.....at least that’s what my voodoo witch told me.
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Old 8th December 2019, 04:05 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Absolutely correct....well said.


And also...my apologies for ragging on you in this thread. I got out of Israel threads some time ago because I gat sick of the bickering so I don’t know why the hell I started doing it again.

Anyway.....my apologies.
Claiming people are being called anti-Semites "just because" they criticized Netenyahu or Likud, then refusing to show any examples for rather paranoid reasons.

Dismissing examples of people who went deep into conspiritard territory for...reasons?

Taunting/trolling behavior, Your are not very good at this are you.....maybe Mycroft can coach you?

You were a pretty major contributor to the bickering behavior, not just in doing it yourself but actively working to draw it out in others. If you want bickering free discussions, I suggest you concentrate on reviewing evidence other present to you in support of their opinions and presenting evidence of your own to support your opinions, and learn to refrain from making it personal.
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Old 8th December 2019, 06:34 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Claiming people are being called anti-Semites "just because" they criticized Netenyahu or Likud, then refusing to show any examples for rather paranoid reasons.

Dismissing examples of people who went deep into conspiritard territory for...reasons?

Taunting/trolling behavior, Your are not very good at this are you.....maybe Mycroft can coach you?

You were a pretty major contributor to the bickering behavior, not just in doing it yourself but actively working to draw it out in others. If you want bickering free discussions, I suggest you concentrate on reviewing evidence other present to you in support of their opinions and presenting evidence of your own to support your opinions, and learn to refrain from making it personal.
Sorry Mycroft you must have me confused with someone who is interested in Your opinions.....unless, of course, if you have any opinions on the topic of the thread....Netanyahu??
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:03 PM   #52
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Israel's SUPREME COURT is being petitioned to 'fire' Bibi.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Do...tanyahu-610286

What is unique about the latest petition, besides that it involves a group of generally apolitical hi-tech officials, is that they specifically have attacked the "theoretical argument" of the Attorney General.
They say that the issue is concrete today, and not theoretical, because voters (in March, when the third elections will be held) should know whether Netanyahu has the legal capacity to form a new government before they decide how to vote.
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Old 8th December 2019, 10:48 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Israel's SUPREME COURT is being petitioned to 'fire' Bibi.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Do...tanyahu-610286

What is unique about the latest petition, besides that it involves a group of generally apolitical hi-tech officials, is that they specifically have attacked the "theoretical argument" of the Attorney General.
They say that the issue is concrete today, and not theoretical, because voters (in March, when the third elections will be held) should know whether Netanyahu has the legal capacity to form a new government before they decide how to vote.
There must be a real shortage of choice if someone in Netanyahu’s position is still a viable alternative. The main reason people like him can still be in the frame is Israel’s bizzare electoral system where people can only vote for parties and the parties provide a list of who becomes elected......any old hack can be put on the list you then get a government full of influence paddlers and unrepresentative political hacks.

Australia has this system in its upper house (senate) and you would be amazed at the band of clowns it produces.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:25 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Absolutely correct....well said.


And also...my apologies for ragging on you in this thread. I got out of Israel threads some time ago because I gat sick of the bickering so I don’t know why the hell I started doing it again.

Anyway.....my apologies.
That's decent of you, and I appreciate it. Thanks.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:30 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
There must be a real shortage of choice if someone in Netanyahu’s position is still a viable alternative. The main reason people like him can still be in the frame is Israel’s bizzare electoral system where people can only vote for parties and the parties provide a list of who becomes elected......any old hack can be put on the list you then get a government full of influence paddlers and unrepresentative political hacks.

Australia has this system in its upper house (senate) and you would be amazed at the band of clowns it produces.
At least they have that choice: it's more than the Palestinian Arabs have.
It doesn't look like Hamas is going to the polls any time soon.

Anyway, I'm British. Don't talk to me about poor electoral choices. Johnson or Corbyn. Sheesh.
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Old 9th December 2019, 05:12 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
At least they have that choice: it's more than the Palestinian Arabs have.
It doesn't look like Hamas is going to the polls any time soon.

Anyway, I'm British. Don't talk to me about poor electoral choices. Johnson or Corbyn. Sheesh.
They have elections in the West Bank but I think it would be easier to pull teeth out than get Hamas to have elections in gaza. I despair about Gaza. Which is why I find it strange that the plan Webfusion refers to would shunt the election running West Bank Palestinians into the Hamas sphere....
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Old 9th December 2019, 06:16 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Agreed.
Netanyahu has been an obstacle to peace for years. Expanding settlements, assuming sovereignty over the Golan Heights, the laws about the Jewish nature of Israel etc., have all served to widen the divide between the two sides.
He enacts popular policies why is that a bad thing? He is giving the voters what they want.
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Old 9th December 2019, 08:33 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
There must be a real shortage of choice if someone in Netanyahu’s position is still a viable alternative.<snip>
It's a little bit more than that.
A big part of the issue here is that in Israel, the right has 100% loyalty to the leader while the left has 100% loyalty to the party but 0% loyalty to the leader.

Now that Netanyahu has a challenger from within - Saar has officially decalred he wants to challenge Netanyahu for leadership of the party - he is instantly classified as a "traitor" against the party.

So the right won't kick him out so easily. He's even expected to win against his challenger.


For the left, as I said, it's the opposite problem. Their loyalty is to the party only. Not the leader. So the backstabs are deadly with high frequency. Last year, they didn't even wait until the end of the election, they started during the election.

This is part of the problem of why BB wins the election almost blindly every single time. The opposition throws constant mud at themselves, it eventually backfires.

Even now, the current pointless name that's running against BB is a guy who nobody knew anything about him other than he was the head of the army (sorry, don't know the English term).

Literally, they showed a survey asking people who they would vote for if he was in the race. People didn't know anything about the guy. Not his stance on national issues, church and state, economy etc.

The guy didn't even said he was running, and the polls showed him as getting 16 sits (out of 120) which was bigger than any other source of opposition.

They seriously just ranodmly picked a guy out of a hat.


Add on top of that that the left doesn't offer any platform whatsoever and it becomes even more absurd.

The left claims to be against religious opression, but they run begging for the extreme religious for a coalition that it's known they have 0 credibility in that department.

The left claims that they are anti corruption, but again, they offer deals to both religious extreme parties - one is run by a convicted fellon who has a new indictment regarding tax fraud. The other one is run by a guy who has an indictment about (surprise surprise) faking a medical report in order to prevent a pedophile from serving her sentence.


So while Netanyahu is hardly a saint to say it mildly, yes, in many cases the opposition is pretty much the same if not worse.


Heck, all 3 former heads of opposition to Netanyahu (Gabai, Hertzog and Peretz) had an election campaign that was nothing but "Bibi is bad, so vote for us so we can kick him out and don't believe all the others that will tell you that cause they'll join his coalition"

All 3 of them crawled on their hands and knees into his coalition...

So even in that regard their word is pretty worthless.
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Old 9th December 2019, 05:04 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
They have elections in the West Bank but I think it would be easier to pull teeth out than get Hamas to have elections in gaza. I despair about Gaza. Which is why I find it strange that the plan Webfusion refers to would shunt the election running West Bank Palestinians into the Hamas sphere....
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/HkXplr3TH -- BREAKING NEWS, Elections to go forward, although no date was set and there's one vital caveat: Jerusalem residents must also vote.
(That is unlikely to be approved by Israel --- http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/272933)

The NewState proposal does depend on shunting Hamas aside (by force, including decimating the leadership) and also to eviscerate the Jihadists & ISIL in North Sinai.
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Old 9th December 2019, 07:19 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Speaking as someone who is strongly pro Israel, I say GOOD. About bloody time.
Agreed. Bibi has been a disaster for Israel.
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Old 10th December 2019, 02:24 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He enacts popular policies why is that a bad thing? He is giving the voters what they want.
Given that Netanyahu has twice been unable to form a majority government in the recent elections, I think some kind of citation is needed for this claim.
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Old 10th December 2019, 09:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Given that Netanyahu has twice been unable to form a majority government in the recent elections, I think some kind of citation is needed for this claim.
Winning a plurality of the vote of course. Claiming he does not represent the country and its values is like americans trying to claim Trump doesn't represent and show what americans want.

Or I guess we could claim that there is no real democracy in Israel that would remove the populace from endorsing the actions of the dictator in charge.
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Winning a plurality of the vote of course...
Just to keep the record straight, and correct (again) your misstatements of fact.---
Mr. Netanyahu's LIKUD did not achieve a plurality of the votes.

Blue and White did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septem...ative_election
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:18 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Just to keep the record straight, and correct (again) your misstatements of fact.---
Mr. Netanyahu's LIKUD did not achieve a plurality of the votes.

Blue and White did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septem...ative_election
I guess it really shouldn't be considered a democracy then as the government in no way answers to the will and votes of the people.

Guess we should be encouraging regime change to finally bring real democracy there.
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:35 AM   #65
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Your 'guesses' are ridiculous, pt.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/272974
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Old 10th December 2019, 11:18 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Your 'guesses' are ridiculous, pt.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/272974
Yes they fail as a democracy, the government in no way represents the will of the people. The claim you make is that the government does not do that so it is not a democracy.

Seems like they could have gotten some benefit from protesting the antidemocratic government in the arab spring and maybe got a government that does represent the people.
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Old 10th December 2019, 04:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes they fail as a democracy, the government in no way represents the will of the people. The claim you make is that the government does not do that so it is not a democracy.

Seems like they could have gotten some benefit from protesting the antidemocratic government in the arab spring and maybe got a government that does represent the people.
I have no idea what you are babbling about.

https://www.knesset.gov.il/faction/e...urrent_eng.asp
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Old 11th December 2019, 01:59 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I have no idea what you are babbling about.

https://www.knesset.gov.il/faction/e...urrent_eng.asp
I'm guessing that ponderingturtle is American, and that the concept of coalition governments is confusing to them.
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Old 11th December 2019, 02:10 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Winning a plurality of the vote of course. Claiming he does not represent the country and its values is like americans trying to claim Trump doesn't represent and show what americans want.

Or I guess we could claim that there is no real democracy in Israel that would remove the populace from endorsing the actions of the dictator in charge.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I guess it really shouldn't be considered a democracy then as the government in no way answers to the will and votes of the people.

Guess we should be encouraging regime change to finally bring real democracy there.
As with so many of your posts on this thread, it is hard to tell if you are joking or not.
On the assumption that you are being serious here, let me point out that, although I am not an American, I am aware that Trump does not represent the views of all Americans.
In fact, his approval ratings are consistently below 50%.
By your own logic, therefore, the US is not a democracy, and the government should be overthrown by force.
Alternatively, you could try to come to grips with the complexity of the real world. Not everything is as black-and-white as you want it to be. If you can develop an understanding of this, it would make your comments here less ridiculous.
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Old 11th December 2019, 06:58 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I'm guessing that ponderingturtle is American, and that the concept of coalition governments is confusing to them.
The answer is clear government and its leadership bear no resemblance to the will of the people that seems to be the main argument here.
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Old 11th December 2019, 07:00 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
As with so many of your posts on this thread, it is hard to tell if you are joking or not.
On the assumption that you are being serious here, let me point out that, although I am not an American, I am aware that Trump does not represent the views of all Americans.
In fact, his approval ratings are consistently below 50%.
By your own logic, therefore, the US is not a democracy, and the government should be overthrown by force.
Alternatively, you could try to come to grips with the complexity of the real world. Not everything is as black-and-white as you want it to be. If you can develop an understanding of this, it would make your comments here less ridiculous.

Got it everyone hates these policies but refuse to stop them, as such they are totally not accountable for them.

The only people who can ever be held accountable for the the actions of their government are the Palestinians that is clear.
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Old 11th December 2019, 07:28 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The answer is clear government and its leadership bear no resemblance to the will of the people that seems to be the main argument here.
What does that even mean -- "The Will of The People" ??? Elections in Israel do not reflect ONE SINGLE will of the people, they reflect a desire to have a Government with MANY representatives from all across the spectrum of political stripes. Israel does not elect a Prime Minister directly (it was tried for a while, and then dropped).

So, the results we've seen over the past year indicate that the plurality of voters are trying to elect Gantz, but Gantz doesn't have enough outside support to reach the 61 seats of a Knesset majority (and that would include Joint List -- i.e.: Arab -- agreeing).

Bibi is unable to form a Government, too. He needed Avigdor ('Yvette') Liberman to come along with his 8 seats, and Liberman said "Nyet" because his demands for Haredi draft legislation were rejected by Bibi, since that would alienate the Haredi (Orthodox religious component of the Jewish population).

So, Liberman was catering to the Will of the People who voted for him (many secular Russians are against religious coercions).
The Haredi (including SHAS) are choosing their guys who represent the Will of the People for them.
The leftists (i.e. - Labor, et al) want to get out of the occupied territories and turn the whole kit and kaboodle over to FATAH/PLO and/or HAMAS.
The rightists want their "Will of the People" to include a greater presence of Jews in the occupied territories, and for the P-A to disappear and Jewish soverignty to replace it.

And you think that there is a "Will of the People" in Israel? Uh, no.

So, another round of elections is scheduled for March 2nd.
Maybe a new thread for that? We'll see.
Gideon Sa'ar might just be able to put forward a campaign within the Likud to change leaders, but that's a long-shot, given Bibi's huge popularity (since Netanyahu does represent the "Will of the People" in his camp).

In the meantime, this topic is about the indictments of Benjamin Netanyahu for accepting bribes and abuse of office. He is presumed innocent until convicted. That is the default position of the law. Yeah, the law, which mirrors the "Will of the People" -- right?
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Old 11th December 2019, 07:53 AM   #73
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"The only people who can ever be held accountable for the the actions of their government are the Palestinians that is clear.

Palestinians have a government which is dysfunctional, at best.
https://mondoweiss.net/2019/10/the-l...-for-elections
In Gaza, a mixed group of jihadist thugs run the place. With force of arms. Either you go along with their program, or bad stuff happens (like being dragged through the streets by motorcycles, for example)
In Ramallah, AbuMazen holds sway despite his term of office expiring long ago.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._138542863.htm

So, yeah, the average Palestinians are obligated to be held accountable, both in Gaza and Judea&Samaria. Why wouldn't they?

Last edited by webfusion; 11th December 2019 at 08:04 AM. Reason: Added link to "Palestinian dissatisfaction"
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Old 11th December 2019, 08:44 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it
I have said before that there seems to be an inviolable Law of the Ponderingturtle, which states that every time you say 'got it', you then proceed to demonstrate that you haven't got it at all.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
everyone hates these policies but refuse to stop them, as such they are totally not accountable for them.

The only people who can ever be held accountable for the the actions of their government are the Palestinians that is clear.
Yup. You just did it again.
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Old 11th December 2019, 04:37 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
What does that even mean -- "The Will of The People" ??? Elections in Israel do not reflect ONE SINGLE will of the people, they reflect a desire to have a Government with MANY representatives from all across the spectrum of political stripes.
True and this time around it's even worse and these elections.
The new trend this year was "technical blocks". Most parties running for parliament were groups of several smaller parties that have joined forces solely to reach the bare minimum they need to enter and pretty much declared in advance they'll go their separate ways after the election.


So when you have a single list hosting X and Y, how the heck can you tell if people voted for it because of X or Y?

And yes, X and Y are very different in this case.

This is one election that teaches you absolutely nothing about "the will of the people".


Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
So, another round of elections is scheduled for March 2nd.
Maybe a new thread for that? We'll see.
Gideon Sa'ar might just be able to put forward a campaign within the Likud to change leaders, but that's a long-shot, given Bibi's huge popularity (since Netanyahu does represent the "Will of the People" in his camp).
Bitan claimed that he managed to get the 800 signatures he needed to have the center of the party vote on whether or not there will be a primaries in the first place.

So Saar might lose his chance, though I don't think it will pass and they'll do the internal elections - with Netanyahu still being the favorite to win.
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Old 13th December 2019, 02:31 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Your 'guesses' are ridiculous, pt.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/272974
Ridiculous is what happens when you adapt a position based on nothing but blind ideology with a "My Mind Is Made Up, Don't Confuse Me With Facts" attitude.
If there is one kind of person I intellcutally despise, it's the blind partisan who automatically adapts a "Party line" and never thinks of wavering from it. I don't trust people who never think for themselves but just parrot whatever the party line is on an issue.
This applies to both Left and Right.
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Old 1st January 2020, 01:49 PM   #77
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It's official, he is requesting immunity.

Though he doesn't have a majority to actually get it.

He'll most likely stall the process until after the election hoping he'll get the votes then.
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Old 1st January 2020, 04:42 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
It's official, he is requesting immunity.

Though he doesn't have a majority to actually get it.

He'll most likely stall the process until after the election hoping he'll get the votes then.
Apparently the Israeli police, public prosecutors and judiciary are all taking orders from the left to sabotage his political career.
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Old 2nd January 2020, 12:57 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Apparently the Israeli police, public prosecutors and judiciary that he personally appointed are all taking orders from the left to sabotage his political career.
Let's not forget that part
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