IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 27th June 2021, 01:04 PM   #361
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
I do hope that you don't abandon this thread again Scorpion
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 02:24 PM   #362
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I do hope that you don't abandon this thread again Scorpion
Why would I bother after all the recent negative flack I have received.

Incidentally I am sure Jesus never told anyone to kill children. Not in all four gospels. There is such a statement in the book of revelations, but that is not regarded as having been written by the John that wrote the gospel. It is regarded as having been written by some other John who got his message in visions. This is unreliable.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 02:54 PM   #363
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would I bother after all the recent negative flack I have received.
If you really believe it, then it should be a trivial exercise to defend it. And you cannot.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Incidentally I am sure Jesus never told anyone to kill children.
Mark 7:10

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not in all four gospels.
Irrelevant. If we were to eliminate things that did not appear in all four gospels, we would be left with not very much.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is such a statement in the book of revelations,
Who cares? You claimed that such a claim could not be found in the gospels, and I just handed you chapter and verse from the gospels.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
but that is not regarded as having been written by the John that wrote the gospel. It is regarded as having been written by some other John who got his message in visions. This is unreliable.
The Paul must also be unreliable, right? Road to Damascus and all that? By the time you are finished with your exclusions, there will not be much bible left.

But you claim to be an adherent of "spiritualism". Everything comes from visions there.

You cannot have it both ways.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 02:55 PM   #364
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would I bother after all the recent negative flack I have received.
Oh, boo hoo.

You knew this was the kind of response you were going to get upon your return. You told us you had no delusions about convincing anyone else of your beliefs, but you just wanted to share your views. When you were asked specifically whether the criticism bothered you, you said it didn't -- or if it did, you shook it off easily.

Now it seems the "flak" is all you can talk about. You haven't been treated shabbily. You presented your claims in a forum with the expectation that they would be challenged. You've responded to those challenges with arrogance and rudeness which your critics have asked you to check. Now you're playing the "Poor, poor me!" card.

This forum is never going to approve or endorse your beliefs unless you're able to spell them out in a consistent way and defend them with objective evidence.

Quote:
It is regarded as having been written by some other John who got his message in visions. This is unreliable.
How is it any less reliable than someone who claims to get messages in visions from various indigenous people? Or rather, from what some people wrongly believe indigenous people are like? Where you go wrong is to treat identical things differently according to evidence depending on whether they benefit you or not.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 03:04 PM   #365
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would I bother after all the recent negative flack I have received.

You have been challenged, and have only been given "flack" for being rude. Which you were.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Incidentally I am sure Jesus never told anyone to kill children. Not in all four gospels.
Yes, he did.

Originally Posted by Mark 7:6-10
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is such a statement in the book of revelations, but that is not regarded as having been written by the John that wrote the gospel. It is regarded as having been written by some other John who got his message in visions. This is unreliable.
Revelation, not revelations. What about all the other lunatic things that Jesus said?
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 03:25 PM   #366
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Revelation, not revelations. What about all the other lunatic things that Jesus said?
Why do atheists always get that right, and believers always get it wrong?

It's revelation, not revelations.

For that matter, why have atheists actually read the stupid book and god-botherers have not?

Why are believers unaware of the casual matter of human sacrifice in the bible? (NOT ISAAC and ABE)?

Why are believers oblivious to the promotion of incest in the bible? Or genocide? Or wiping out everything beyond what Noah could squeeze on his stupidly infeasible boatfail?

Ah, see, that's all Old Testament. Jesus made a new covenant. Well, that's the ten commandments right out. Not to mention the other 603 commandments.

Whither the ten commandments? Jebus endorsed five and added two more that were plainly swiped from Hammurabi.

The whole concoction is clearly ******* nuts if one pauses to consider it.

Read the book. It is an invitation to atheism.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...

Last edited by Agatha; 4th July 2021 at 09:54 AM. Reason: rule 10
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 03:34 PM   #367
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
abaddon, you said in a recent post.
"According to your beliefs, you should not intervene even if you could because that three year old was incarnated to suffer that way. To intervene would violate that infants payment of karmic debt of some sort. It, according to your beliefs, would be immoral to intervene."

I have never said you should not intervene to stop horrible things, that is your interpretation.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 03:41 PM   #368
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never said you should not intervene to stop horrible things, that is your interpretation.
It's an interpretation that necessary follows from what you tell us the role of evil is in your model of responsibility. You seem to be happy to allow the contradiction to stand, but critical thinking demands a more carefully reasoned reconciliation.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:03 PM   #369
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
abaddon, you said in a recent post.
"According to your beliefs, you should not intervene even if you could because that three year old was incarnated to suffer that way. To intervene would violate that infants payment of karmic debt of some sort. It, according to your beliefs, would be immoral to intervene."

I have never said you should not intervene to stop horrible things, that is your interpretation.
Bet you a dollar. You have exactly made that claim. That three year old rape/murder victim was learning...something. AoK made it thus.

AoK were tasked to make it thus. That little speck of humanity deserved it.

Do not pretend that you have not claimed that. Do not provoke me to dredge up what you have actually said. Do not attempt to pretend that is not what you actually said.

If you or I had a random phone call from some street urchin in harms way, what would I do? What would you do?

I would, (and have) staged an intervention.

You would have said it is your "karma" tough luck.

And that is what is obscene about your position.

You are in a position that you happily say that you do not care.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:06 PM   #370
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post

Yes, he did.
In Mark 7.10 Jesus is quoting what Moses said.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:16 PM   #371
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In Mark 7.10 Jesus is quoting what Moses said.
Wow. jebus is saying it it the right thing to do. Do I need to expand that quote? Have you actually never read it? Are you going to resort to the "context" excuse that everyone is heartily sick of?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:16 PM   #372
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In Mark 7.10 Jesus is quoting what Moses said.
And is he doing so in order to contravene it, or to underscore it?

Last edited by JayUtah; 27th June 2021 at 04:48 PM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:18 PM   #373
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In Mark 7.10 Jesus is quoting what Moses said.
And saying that is what should be done because gawwwwwwwwd.

Read it in that lovely context you love so much.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:18 PM   #374
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In Mark 7.10 Jesus is quoting what Moses said.
Yes, he's quoting Moses and telling off the Pharasees for not killing their disobedient children like Moses said to and excusing them instead. He's even calling them hypocrites for complaining about the disciples not performing certain washing rituals while allowing unruly children to live.

Question for you Scorpion, what did Jesus say about the laws of Moses?
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:29 PM   #375
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Yes, he's quoting Moses and telling off the Pharasees for not killing their disobedient children like Moses said to and excusing them instead. He's even calling them hypocrites for complaining about the disciples not performing certain washing rituals while allowing unruly children to live.

Question for you Scorpion, what did Jesus say about the laws of Moses?
LOL, funny on a load of levels.

The bottom line is that the bible states that Scorpion is flat out wrong and in league with satan.

That can somehow be ignored when Scorpion claims biblical support for the claim du jour. Because reasons.

And pay attention!!!
Because the claims will all be different tomorrow.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:30 PM   #376
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Actually, follow-up question for you Scorpion. Are you baptised and a believing Christian?
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 04:46 PM   #377
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,869
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wow. jebus is saying it it the right thing to do. Do I need to expand that quote? Have you actually never read it? Are you going to resort to the "context" excuse that everyone is heartily sick of?

Scorpion is referring to his knowledge of what the spirits are saying. Much more reliable than you're humble and fumble interpretations of Biblical text.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 06:02 PM   #378
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,843
Few of the pious population know the Bible as well as a lot of atheists. For good reason, because so many atheists started out as praying, hymning, testifyin' Chrrrrristians.

Another set of atheists* skipped all of that and never had a speck of churching, and don't -- can't-- give a floating forb about book, chapter, verse, or syllable from Holey Wright.

* Yeah, me myself yours truly. Go ahead, bang yer empty pot and yell.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2021, 06:58 PM   #379
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,414
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Incidentally I am sure Jesus never told anyone to kill children. Not in all four gospels. There is such a statement in the book of revelations, but that is not regarded as having been written by the John that wrote the gospel. It is regarded as having been written by some other John who got his message in visions. This is unreliable.
Why are the "visions" of John unreliable and yet the "visions" of spiritualist mediums reliable?
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2021, 05:58 AM   #380
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,650
I am not trying to make a jest of your various religious beliefs, but I would like to address this posting all the same.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would I bother after all the recent negative flack I have received.
As for me, I sure do not have any abilities to communicate with dead people, the spirt world, god, or anything of the sort.

However, I accurately forsaw that when you started this thread that sooner or later you would be innudated with logic, and that you would take the logic as a series of personal attacks on you.

As a result, I hope you can understand that sometimes a person (like myself) who has a complete lack of paranormal abilities, can sometimes accurately predict the future.

Quote:
Incidentally I am sure Jesus never told anyone to kill children. Not in all four gospels. There is such a statement in the book of revelations, but that is not regarded as having been written by the John that wrote the gospel. It is regarded as having been written by some other John who got his message in visions. This is unreliable.
And sorry, but I do not think that you realize that now you are speaking against your own argument.

After all, if Bible is actually supposed to be such a great resource, then it should be able to stand on its own merits. However, when one random person on the Internet (such as yourself) gets to decide what parts of the Bible are reliable and what parts of the Bible are unreliable, then it makes the entire Bible look unreliable.

Especially when the person who is making these decisions is quite well known to have some rather unusual ideas on just how the universe works.

I hope this helps.
__________________
I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency.

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2021, 08:27 AM   #381
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Yes, he's quoting Moses and telling off the Pharasees for not killing their disobedient children like Moses said to and excusing them instead. He's even calling them hypocrites for complaining about the disciples not performing certain washing rituals while allowing unruly children to live.

Question for you Scorpion, what did Jesus say about the laws of Moses?
I don't know, but he said he came to fulfil the law, not change it.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2021, 08:28 AM   #382
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Actually, follow-up question for you Scorpion. Are you baptised and a believing Christian?
No, I am not a Christian.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2021, 08:59 AM   #383
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know, but he said he came to fulfil the law, not change it.
Exactly. So since he isn't changing the Law Jesus thinks it's perfectly acceptable to stone someone to death for working on the sabbath, or wearing clothes of two different fibres. Or indeed to kill unruly children.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No, I am not a Christian.
Oh then Jesus says that you will be thrown into a lake of unquenchable fire for all eternity to be tortured. This is also perfectly acceptable to him.

Truth is Jesus was just as much a bloodthirsty psychopath as his daddy Yahweh was in the Old Testament, it's just that Jesus also said some nice things so people who haven't read the bible tend to give him a pass because they usually don't get told all the vicious things he supposedly said and did.

In fact I think Mohammed has one advantage over Jesus. Mohammed was definitely a real person.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara

Last edited by MarkCorrigan; 28th June 2021 at 09:03 AM.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2021, 05:58 AM   #384
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
I would very much like to continue this discussion Scorpion.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2021, 07:22 AM   #385
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I would very much like to continue this discussion Scorpion.
It's certainly entertaining, if not especially productive. However, Scorpion has mentioned a number of times that he wants to let this thread die, for the defensible reason that he believes he can make no further headway in it.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2021, 07:54 AM   #386
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's certainly entertaining, if not especially productive. However, Scorpion has mentioned a number of times that he wants to let this thread die, for the defensible reason that he believes he can make no further headway in it.
That begs a question. If what PS claims is true, why would it be impossible to demonstrate the claim is true?

Surely that is....I am not sure what that is. Special pleading? Maybe?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 09:36 AM   #387
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That begs a question. If what PS claims is true, why would it be impossible to demonstrate the claim is true?
I assume you mean Scorpion, but the same situation applies to PartSkeptic. Both acknowledge that their claims cannot be proven under the scientific method. But both argue toward the same end (albeit with slightly different lines of reasoning) that the scientific method is inappropriate for claims of their nature. They want to argue that scientific inquiry is inherently closed-minded and therefore that some other system of inquiry is more suited to the task and should be applied.

Quote:
Surely that is....I am not sure what that is. Special pleading? Maybe?
Sure, why not?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 09:42 AM   #388
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,029
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I assume you mean Scorpion, but the same situation applies to PartSkeptic. Both acknowledge that their claims cannot be proven under the scientific method. But both argue toward the same end (albeit with slightly different lines of reasoning) that the scientific method is inappropriate for claims of their nature. They want to argue that scientific inquiry is inherently closed-minded and therefore that some other system of inquiry is more suited to the task and should be applied.



Sure, why not?
And of course all these claims are at their heart contradictory because they claim to make the claims because of evidence, yet they then hold that you can’t test them - without seemingly realising that if they aren’t testable then they couldn’t make their initial claim….
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2021, 04:31 PM   #389
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,869
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I assume you mean Scorpion, but the same situation applies to PartSkeptic. Both acknowledge that their claims cannot be proven under the scientific method. But both argue toward the same end (albeit with slightly different lines of reasoning) that the scientific method is inappropriate for claims of their nature. They want to argue that scientific inquiry is inherently closed-minded and therefore that some other system of inquiry is more suited to the task and should be applied.

A typical reaction from those who would have us take seriously supernatural phenomena. Some other system of enquiry needed than the scientific method they claim, without telling us what that system is. They tend suggest a mystique about the scientific method, that disqualifies it from comment about their woo stuff.

In essence however the scientific method, although it can be used to explore many extremely complex phenomena, is simplicity itself. It is just observing, and learning from those observations. Children use it all the time.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2021, 01:48 AM   #390
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,414
I was reading some old threads, which is something I do - there is so much gold buried in the archives - and I came across this fairly long thread from 2008. Some of the people posting in this thread might remember it.

Why are you all pretending?

At first it will look pretty familiar, but there is a twist at the end. As I said, the thread is pretty long, but if you want to skip straight to it, the twist occurs at Post #296.

If Scorpion is still reading this thread, I am really interested in what he thinks about it. Scorpion?
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2021, 01:11 PM   #391
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,863
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I was reading some old threads, which is something I do - there is so much gold buried in the archives - and I came across this fairly long thread from 2008. Some of the people posting in this thread might remember it.

Why are you all pretending?

At first it will look pretty familiar, but there is a twist at the end. As I said, the thread is pretty long, but if you want to skip straight to it, the twist occurs at Post #296.

If Scorpion is still reading this thread, I am really interested in what he thinks about it. Scorpion?
Great post and yet I can almost assuredly predict he'll disregard it entirely without even missing a beat.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
If you see a Nazi. Egg them
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2021, 07:21 AM   #392
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
That's a great thread, a great story behind it, and a cautionary tale.

My impression is that Scorpion believes he has been cured of his schizophrenia. About 1 in 4 patients recover on their own, or at least experience some amelioration of symptoms. Most simply don't. He says he's weaned himself off the medication, but there appears to be no follow-up with professionals to confirm that he no longer needs it. Schizophrenia can also be managed with non-pharmacological treatments in many cases, but common to all treatment regimes is the patient's belief that he needs one. If a patient simply declares himself free of the disease or free of the need to treat it, that should be a cause for concern.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2021, 12:44 AM   #393
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,414
I feel it's only really of concern if the person declining to be treated starts to become a danger to themself or to others. I don't see any evidence of that in this particular case, but once again I am not a mental health professional, only some guy who happens to know some things.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2021, 07:22 AM   #394
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,337
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I feel it's only really of concern if the person declining to be treated starts to become a danger to themself or to others. I don't see any evidence of that in this particular case, but once again I am not a mental health professional, only some guy who happens to know some things.
Indeed, especially since all treatments have side effects, if one can get along without them and be otherwise healthy and happy then it is generally of no one else's concern. Even Scorpion's antics here affect others only insofar as they wish to subject themselves to it. But insofar as schizophrenia is notoriously invisible to the sufferer, it's not out of line to hope that qualified people have an eye on any such situation.

I speak from the American perspective in general about mental illness. It is estimated that as much as 40% of those in America suffering from profound mental illness go untreated. This is in part due to the ordinary stigma of mental illness, but due more to the general financial unprofitability of treating the non-wealthy mentally ill. Treatment is indicated, but is simply not available. More often it falls to the American criminal justice system to deal with the mentally ill. And too often that means simply incarceration, not the intervention that happened early in Scorpion's case.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:59 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.