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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:11 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The older I get, the more I think that women are valued as sex objects, and men are not valued at all.
Oh stop with the self-pity. I don't want you to summon up Dave Rubin with his "ideeeeas" about how there is the Oppression Olympics and poor old white guys are the bottom rung of the ladder.

Women: "Can we just play sport and not be reduced to sex objects?"

Sad men: "Waaah! It's okay for some. We've been reduced to nothing. Nobody cares about men's sports! Boo hooo hooo!"
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:18 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Oh stop with the self-pity. I don't want you to summon up Dave Rubin with his "ideeeeas" about how there is the Oppression Olympics and poor old white guys are the bottom rung of the ladder.

Women: "Can we just play sport and not be reduced to sex objects?"

Sad men: "Waaah! It's okay for some. We've been reduced to nothing. Nobody cares about men's sports! Boo hooo hooo!"
Lighten up.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:19 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
So...the men wanted to show more...but were denied? And the women wanted to show less...and were fined?

No double standard here.
Except for the tiny fact that the women in this specific case didn't just "want" to wear another uniform, they actually showed up wearing them in contravention of the rules.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:21 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Except for the tiny fact that the women in this specific case didn't just "want" to wear another uniform, they actually showed up wearing them in contravention of the rules.
Wasn't that the point he was making? What am I missing?
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:25 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Lighten up.
Sorry, I am only capable of deep posts like that one.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:30 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Wasn't that the point he was making? What am I missing?
The difference between making representations for change and taking unilateral action for change.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:39 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
The difference between making representations for change and taking unilateral action for change.
There's a difference, I'm not sure if there's really a distinction of note.

Again you aren't obligated to politely ask within the rules to stop being treated a certain way in every scenario.

If I'm punching you in the face you don't have to file "Formal Request for Joe to stop punching me in the face" papers down at City Hall lest you be the bad guy. You can stop me in the moment and still be "in the right."

Where on the scale "this" falls is a discussion, but the whole "They just took on themselves" with no elaborating context is a poor argument.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:52 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If the female participants are required to wear bikinis and have exposed midriffs, and are prohibited from wearing swim shorts or one-pieces, then I am of the opinion that the male participants should be required to wear speedos with no shirt.
Agreed. It's only fair.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:53 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a difference, I'm not sure if there's really a distinction of note.

Again you aren't obligated to politely ask within the rules to stop being treated a certain way in every scenario.

If I'm punching you in the face you don't have to file "Formal Request for Joe to stop punching me in the face" papers down at City Hall lest you be the bad guy. You can stop me in the moment and still be "in the right."

Where on the scale "this" falls is a discussion, but the whole "They just took on themselves" with no elaborating context is a poor argument.
A tad hyperbolic, perhaps? unless perhaps you see the women being asked in the regulations to wear bikinis to be physical violence against them?

It is possible the women also made representations, but since there is no mention of such action at this point, assessment can only be made on the basis of information presented.

I wonder what the response would be on here it it was the men who had taken unilateral action and been fined.

Personally, I think they should all be in skinsuits. Keeps the sand out.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:57 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
A tad hyperbolic, perhaps? unless perhaps you see the women being asked in the regulations to wear bikinis to be physical violence against them?
Yeah sure I'll totally fall for your bait to stop the discussion to explain to you what a "comparison" is at kindergarten level.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 07:00 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah sure I'll totally fall for your bait to stop the discussion to explain to you what a "comparison" is at kindergarten level.
A little hyperbolic, don't you think? This conversation is occurring at least at the 6th grade level.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 07:09 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
So...the men wanted to show more...but were denied? And the women wanted to show less...and were fined?

No double standard here.
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Except for the tiny fact that the women in this specific case didn't just "want" to wear another uniform, they actually showed up wearing them in contravention of the rules.
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Wasn't that the point he was making? What am I missing?
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
The difference between making representations for change and taking unilateral action for change.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a difference, I'm not sure if there's really a distinction of note.

Again you aren't obligated to politely ask within the rules to stop being treated a certain way in every scenario.

If I'm punching you in the face you don't have to file "Formal Request for Joe to stop punching me in the face" papers down at City Hall lest you be the bad guy. You can stop me in the moment and still be "in the right."

Where on the scale "this" falls is a discussion, but the whole "They just took on themselves" with no elaborating context is a poor argument.
Jesus Christ, the amount of rocket surgery going on here. TomB insinuates a double standard: the men were just told no, while the women actually had to pay fines. Arcade22 points out that the women actually broke the rules, hence the entire appropriate* penalty for breaking the rules. No double standard at all.

That's it. And yes, Joe, it really is a distinction of note. And no, Joe, nobody in this exchange was saying you're obligated to ask within the rules. We all understand and appreciate the role of protest actions and civil disobedience in effecting change. We all understand when the wind is southerly, anyway. Seems like there's a huge nor'easter blowing through this thread.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 07:29 AM   #133
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I did some googling on beach handball and on uniform requirements, and there's no doubt, people like to talk about human bodies, and about the possibility of seeing more of them, and there's no doubt that sports promoters sometimes demand that women show more skin in the hopes that more men will watch.

My opinion is that if the promoters are demanding skimpy outfits, it might as well be mud wrestling or WWE. If you want your sport to be seen as a real sport, athletes should be able to wear what they want.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 07:33 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus Christ, the amount of rocket surgery going on here. TomB insinuates a double standard: the men were just told no, while the women actually had to pay fines. Arcade22 points out that the women actually broke the rules, hence the entire appropriate* penalty for breaking the rules. No double standard at all.
Bring it down a notch, I just didn't read it the same way. No one is trying to mash your potatoes here. Thanks for the clarification, hopefully my next question won't tweak that trigger button.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 08:27 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
My opinion is that if the promoters are demanding skimpy outfits, it might as well be mud wrestling or WWE. If you want your sport to be seen as a real sport, athletes should be able to wear what they want.
Dunno about wear what they want, but they should at least be able to have uniform rules that are about a level playing field and excellence in the sport, rather than fan service.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 11:03 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Except for the tiny fact that the women in this specific case didn't just "want" to wear another uniform, they actually showed up wearing them in contravention of the rules.
Left out of the article is the fact that they had petitioned to wear the shorts prior to the competition:
Quote:
The team had petitioned to wear the shorts their players train in from the start of the tournament, Lio said, but was threatened by the EHA with a fine or disqualification.

[snip]

Norway has campaigned since 2006 for shorts to be officially considered acceptable in beach handball, and will submit a motion to change the rules in an extraordinary congress of the IHF in November 2021, said Lio.
https://7news.com.au/sport/olympics/...ers--c-3462955

So yes, double standard. Not in the penalty, but in the policy: men ask to wear more revealing uniforms like the women:denied. Women ask to wear less revealing uniforms like the men: denied.

Having tried the official path and being denied, the women decided to make a point. And rightly so.

They also had the support and backing of their own national federation. Apparently, they only wear the bikinis for international competitions.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 11:14 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dunno about wear what they want, but they should at least be able to have uniform rules that are about a level playing field and excellence in the sport, rather than fan service.
Eggs Actly
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Old 23rd July 2021, 04:32 AM   #138
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In a related story, German gymnasts are making headlines:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...001106138.html

The uniforms look great.
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Old 23rd July 2021, 12:01 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In a related story, German gymnasts are making headlines:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...001106138.html

The uniforms look great.
Good for Germany!
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Old 24th July 2021, 01:57 AM   #140
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What? There is a four-page thread already about women wearing shorts instead of bikinis? Shurely shome mishtake...
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Old 24th July 2021, 02:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dunno about wear what they want, but they should at least be able to have uniform rules that are about a level playing field and excellence in the sport, rather than fan service.
The organisation who decided "run" their sport and there wouldn't even be a league if they didn't exist.

And no one is forcing the girls to work for/ under the organisation.
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Old 24th July 2021, 10:45 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The organisation who decided "run" their sport and there wouldn't even be a league if they didn't exist.

And no one is forcing the girls to work for/ under the organisation.
To compete in the Olympics, which is the ultimate dream of many an athlete, yes they do have to work with that organization.
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Old 24th July 2021, 11:10 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
To compete in the Olympics, which is the ultimate dream of many an athlete, yes they do have to work with that organization.
Beach handball is not an Olympic sport; the incident under discussion was in a European league.

For what it's worth, the Olympics has a Beach Volleyball event, but in 2012 they dropped the mandate for bikini bottoms.
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Old 24th July 2021, 11:20 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Beach handball is not an Olympic sport; the incident under discussion was in a European league.
Thanks. Opening ceremonies on the brain and lost the plot.
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Old 27th July 2021, 01:28 AM   #145
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Update

Pink fronts up. Have a bit of a soft spot for her tbf. Cool chick.

Quote:
Pink offers to pay fines for Norwegian women’s beach handball

Pop star Pink has offered to pay the “sexist” fines handed out to the Norwegian women’s beach handball team after they refused to wear bikini bottoms while playing.

The European Handball Federation, the sport’s governing body, fined the team €1,500 (£1,295) last week for “improper clothing” at the European Beach Handball Championships.

The American singer voiced her support for the women’s team for refusing to follow the official rules forbidding female beach handball players from wearing shorts like their male counterparts.

She tweeted: “I’m very proud of the Norwegian female beach handball team for protesting the very sexist rules about their ‘uniform’. The European handball federation should be fined for sexism.” She added that she would be “happy to pay” the team’s fines.

According to uniform regulations in the rules of the game, women must wear bikini bottoms and a sports bra when playing official games. Men can wear shorts and a vest shirt.

The Norwegian Handball Federation subsequently said that it was prepared to cover the fines, backing their players’ kit choices in a post to the team’s Instagram page.


team
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Old 27th July 2021, 01:57 AM   #146
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When I think about these athletes, and their cause, it reminds me of a classic tune.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 27th July 2021, 06:06 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In a related story, German gymnasts are making headlines:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...001106138.html

The uniforms look great.
I think it's pretty much undeniable that leotards are sexier than unitards. Ultimately this has nothing to do with athletes being abused sexually. If anything the focus on sexual abuse is misguided since the biggest problem is that gymnastics is hyper-competitive where Individual athletes are subject to extremely rigid training and dietary regimes. They are under such pressure to perform and conform to their coaches demands that they are less inclined to report abuse or misconduct out of fear of damaging their career.

Notionally athletics and sports are supposed to glorify health and fitness but in athletics young women endure such extreme training and dietary restrictions that a significant portion, if not a majority of elite gymnasts, suffer from disruptions to their menstrual cycles. Their underdeveloped breasts are another sign of unhealthy expectations.
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Old 27th July 2021, 06:14 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I think it's pretty much undeniable that leotards are sexier than unitards.
I hereby invoke Rule 34 and say it is deniable.
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Old 27th July 2021, 06:31 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Notionally athletics and sports are supposed to glorify health and fitness but in athletics young women endure such extreme training and dietary restrictions that a significant portion, if not a majority of elite gymnasts, suffer from disruptions to their menstrual cycles. Their underdeveloped breasts are another sign of unhealthy expectations.
Anecdotal, but I went to school with a guy who'd been a serious gymnast in his teens. His wrists were shot, he said that's a pretty common outcome for male gymnasts. They wind up with fantastic bodies but the wrists of ninety-year-olds.
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Old 27th July 2021, 07:05 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I think it's pretty much undeniable that leotards are sexier than unitards.
After watching several days of Olympic competition across various sports, it is my opinion that female Olympic athletes would be sexy even wearing haz-mat suits.

Except for the skateboarders. They're too young to be sexy. They're just cute.

I'm not as good at judging such qualities in men,.but I'm pretty sure that the same is true of the men.

I didn't see the German women competing, but the outfits looked great in the photos I saw and I'm sure that the religious authorities in the Taliban would still consider them an offense against God.

The outfits for all sports should be chosen for comfort and performance. Deliberately enhancing sex appeal seems like a bad idea.
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Old 27th July 2021, 08:52 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The justification for beach volleyball wearing bikinis is that it started out on the beach, where girls wear bkinis.
...
I'm guessing beach handball is about the same.

What I don't understand, though, is what do the guys wear at the beach? Swim trunks, right? Shorts. Why weren't the guys required to play shirtless?
If people need to wear 'beachwear' to compete, might I suggest this as an alternative for their uniforms?
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File Type: jpg beachwear.jpg (35.9 KB, 134 views)
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Old 27th July 2021, 08:56 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
After watching several days of Olympic competition across various sports, it is my opinion that female Olympic athletes would be sexy even wearing haz-mat suits.
Just leaving this out there...

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I AGREE
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Old 27th July 2021, 12:18 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Update

Pink fronts up. Have a bit of a soft spot for her tbf. Cool chick.
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Old 27th July 2021, 12:38 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
After watching several days of Olympic competition across various sports, it is my opinion that female Olympic athletes would be sexy even wearing haz-mat suits.
Despite my upthread comments, agreed. Women's beach volley was in bikinis (?) and it was duly noted.

Quote:
Except for the skateboarders. They're too young to be sexy. They're just cute.
One from Japan was 13 and looked about 7. Agreed, adorable.

Quote:
I'm not as good at judging such qualities in men,.but I'm pretty sure that the same is true of the men.

I didn't see the German women competing, but the outfits looked great in the photos I saw and I'm sure that the religious authorities in the Taliban would still consider them an offense against God.

The outfits for all sports should be chosen for comfort and performance. Deliberately enhancing sex appeal seems like a bad idea.
Agreed. Let them wear what enables them to achieve peak performance.
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Old 27th July 2021, 04:11 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
From Wikipedia:

Do they have an "old-time" night or league? We have "old-time" baseball leagues that are played by the original rules. (Think: before gloves.) An oldshool handball (headball?) league might attract more attention.

I wonder...did the Vikings wear the traditional outfit when they played? Did they wear chainmail bikinis?


....
And the Grecian Olympians competed naked.
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Old 27th July 2021, 04:15 PM   #156
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I guess it's played like Soccer, but catching and throwing instead of kicking?
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Old 27th July 2021, 04:37 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Just leaving this out there...

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Exactly.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 01:54 PM   #158
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I think the question here is that there are UNIFORMS.

They want to change uniforms to another style? Have all woman players agree on that, maybe two styles, and change.


What CANNOT happen is each woman or each team deciding on totally different styles of uniform.

At the SAME time some are complaining about having to wear bikinis, a paraolympics athlete complained of misoginy because they didn´t want her to wear a tiny bikini bottom.


So basically, everything is a reason to comply of misogyny. Sometimes it is due. But if some feminists want to feel offended, they can always do that, no matter WHAT position is taken.

If they decided to make men play naked, like in the ancient Greek Olympic games, feminists would complain of misogyny, for promoting the male body instead of the female one.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-st...70422483-6.jpg

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 5. Please do not hotlink unless specifically permitted by the originating site.


So I am like: ok, let the women teams vote and everybody comply and stop nagging.

Last edited by Agatha; 4th August 2021 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 01:57 PM   #159
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Cannot, huh.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 01:58 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
If people need to wear 'beachwear' to compete, might I suggest this as an alternative for their uniforms?
the MOMENT you set that as a standard uniform, surely some female atheletes will complain they cant wear bikini, and its misogyny, men deciding to tell women how they should or should not dress.

have only females as head of the sport federation. No solution. They are still part of the patriarchal society.
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