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Old 26th July 2021, 12:29 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post

<snip>

Assume all that happened as described. Is it acceptable?

According to the article, a lot of police officers were uncomfortable with the practice, but were threatened when they voiced their objections. This isn't a pro- or anti- police issue. It's the simple case of this one county's practice. It seems like a good portion of police consider it unethical as well. (Possibly a majority, but I don't have data for that.)
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post

It is hard to sift through the bias, even in this article. I mean, it is over the top with the blame-shifting and apologist attitudes. Still, it has more information than I have seen elsewhere.

So, now I wonder, is it a matter of bad law, or poor enforcement of the law? Or reporting bias? That isn't completely clear; my guess is, a combination of all three.
Hope that clarifies.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, that ought to at least ease some concerns expressed here.

It is hard to sift through the bias, even in this article. I mean, it is over the top with the blame-shifting and apologist attitudes. Still, it has more information than I have seen elsewhere.

So, now I wonder, is it a matter of bad law, or poor enforcement of the law? Or reporting bias? That isn't completely clear; my guess is, a combination of all three.
I read in one article (that I can't find) that they are also using confidential information regarding grades in school and attendance records to identify kids who are likely to become criminals. They had about 400 teenagers on that list. (All it took was one D grade or disciplinary referral.) There was some concern that the biases in education could then translate to biases in policing. They also considered if a child had been a victim of abuse.

Also, you get points on the frequent perpetrator list if you were a victim or witness to a crime, if you were arrested, but either not charged or acquitted, or if your name was even mentioned in a report. (Like if you called the police or witnessed a crime.)
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I'd seen this before. I've linked the original Tampa Bay Times investigation. It's truly despicable.
One expert described their manual as "It feels like everything that’s wrong about policing in one document."

https://projects.tampabay.com/projec...-led-policing/
This is my own county. Great.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hope that clarifies.
Yes. It clarifies that you won't answer a question. I'm not asking you if you agree that the behaviour is true. I'm asking you if it would be acceptable if it were true. It's a simple yes/no question. Below are some suggested answers. Some with elaboration, if you feel it necessary.

A) Yes, that would be acceptable, if true.
B) Yes, that would be acceptable if, but I don't believe it's true.
C) Yes, that would be acceptable, but I don't have sufficient information to say it's true.
D) No, that would not be acceptable if true.
E) No, that would not be acceptable, but I don't believe it's true.
F) No, that would not be acceptable, but I don't have sufficient information to say its true.

I think that should cover all the bases.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why bother? I should just follow the proven model of expressing an emotionally-based opinion, without considering all of the facts. Like any skeptic should, right?
And if the story is accurate, you would explain why this is a wonderful idea.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
This is my own county. Great.
It's disgusting, and I am more sympathtic to the police then most people here.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Yes. It clarifies that you won't answer a question. I'm not asking you if you agree that the behaviour is true. I'm asking you if it would be acceptable if it were true. It's a simple yes/no question. Below are some suggested answers. Some with elaboration, if you feel it necessary.

A) Yes, that would be acceptable, if true.
B) Yes, that would be acceptable if, but I don't believe it's true.
C) Yes, that would be acceptable, but I don't have sufficient information to say it's true.
D) No, that would not be acceptable if true.
E) No, that would not be acceptable, but I don't believe it's true.
F) No, that would not be acceptable, but I don't have sufficient information to say its true.

I think that should cover all the bases.
Would large footprints be acceptable if Sasquatch were true? Faulty argument, which avoids my response that there seems to be problems with three aspects, based on this article: law, enforcement of law, and biased reporting.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:15 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And if the story is accurate, you would explain why this is a wonderful idea.
Completely false.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:16 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's disgusting, and I am more sympathtic to the police then most people here.
That isn't saying much, tbh.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:51 PM   #50
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How is this any different from the FBI or the NSA proactively keeping an eye on potential troublemakers in case they act up (again)?
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Would large footprints be acceptable if Sasquatch were true? Faulty argument, which avoids my response that there seems to be problems with three aspects, based on this article: law, enforcement of law, and biased reporting.
My interpretation of your response is that you think that it would be unacceptable, but you suspect that the reporting is blowing the issue out of proportion.

I will point out that this appears to be internal police policy, not codified law, although the city council supports the policy.

The police force is currently being sued.

Here's the complaint that's been filed: https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/20...-Complaint.pdf
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Old 26th July 2021, 02:01 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this any different from the FBI or the NSA proactively keeping an eye on potential troublemakers in case they act up (again)?
The NSA and FBI, surveillance, presumably, is just that: surveillance. Although some of what they do may also be questionable:
https://www.aclu.org/other/more-about-fbi-spying

Just pointing out that it's not an "OK when the FBI does it but not when local police do it."

This is not merely surveillance. This is harassment and warrant-less searches.
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Old 26th July 2021, 02:09 PM   #53
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Old 26th July 2021, 02:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
My interpretation of your response is that you think that it would be unacceptable, but you suspect that the reporting is blowing the issue out of proportion.

I will point out that this appears to be internal police policy, not codified law, although the city council supports the policy.

The police force is currently being sued.

Here's the complaint that's been filed: https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/20...-Complaint.pdf
No; I believe that all may be equally responsible, meaning 3 parts. I would put law, and execution of law as having the greatest responsibility, at this point. 2/3 of the problem. The bigger overall problem, to me, is just blindly accepting things as being fact. Which people seem to do based upon these articles which are designed to cause an emotional response.
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Old 26th July 2021, 02:27 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Calibration on the pre-crime mystery box must be broken, it keeps saying that all these cops are disproportionally wife beaters.
Fixed in the latest patch. It now correctly identifies that cops are merely disproportionately likely to marry clumsy women

...that keep falling down

...and hitting doorknobs

...with their faces

...after fetching the wrong beer from the fridge
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Old 26th July 2021, 02:43 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this any different from the FBI or the NSA proactively keeping an eye on potential troublemakers in case they act up (again)?
This is not a rhetorical question is it? I suspect you really don't know the answer.
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Old 26th July 2021, 02:49 PM   #57
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It's always confusing to see how accepting people constantly complaining about government overreach are about pretty blatant government overreach.
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Old 26th July 2021, 04:46 PM   #58
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Again, if anyone has any evidence that the newspaper is substantively misrepresenting any facts in this story, they are absolutely free to post that evidence here.
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Old 26th July 2021, 05:50 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Again, if anyone has any evidence that the newspaper is substantively misrepresenting any facts in this story, they are absolutely free to post that evidence here.
No one here has such evidence, or even seriously thinks that. A minimum of one poster likely believes that the described level of surveillance is acceptable in your country, but is embarrassed to actually say so.
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Old 26th July 2021, 07:27 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
It's always confusing to see how accepting people constantly complaining about government overreach are about pretty blatant government overreach.
It's only government ovvereach is it's aimed on people who do not have white skins.
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
This is not a rhetorical question is it? I suspect you really don't know the answer.
It's part of a pre-contrarian scheme; the position of "against whatever the majority says" is selected before the topic is known.
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:56 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am commenting on the potential bias of any reporting, and how quick people are to embrace their "feelings". If you can't see that as a possibility, ok. I'm just not going to express outrage over such articles that are clearly aiming for an emotional response. Which clearly, they have gotten.
Your reasoning is invalid nonsense.

Just claiming other people are being emotional isn't support for your claim of bias.

You've dismissed the actual evidence and indicate you're being more skeptical by not having the feelings you're assigning to others. This is wrong on at least two levels as you're not being properly skeptical and the mere existence of emotion is in no way evidence that one is basing their view on it. This is just daft. People also feel emotions over murders and that isn't evidence they're biased against murder. It doesn't mean you're not operating on emotion either. Indeed the assertion you're not going to be lead by outrage while clearly displaying emotion in your argument means you're not even trying to correct for 'feelings'.

Opposing the bad policy or feeling angry at it doesn't make someone biased nor wrong. Overall the main problem with your argument apart from it relying on your faulty assertions is it ignores actual data to pretend there is a bias. The sheriff's own pdf is biased against he program and designed to generate emotion is it?

Now you're going to claim taking down your nonsense arguments is 'outrage' and 'emotion' in and of itself.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:01 PM   #63
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I me I I'm me me me hey everyone this thread is about me.
Warren Beatty?
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:38 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Your reasoning is invalid nonsense.

Just claiming other people are being emotional isn't support for your claim of bias.

You've dismissed the actual evidence and indicate you're being more skeptical by not having the feelings you're assigning to others. This is wrong on at least two levels as you're not being properly skeptical and the mere existence of emotion is in no way evidence that one is basing their view on it. This is just daft. People also feel emotions over murders and that isn't evidence they're biased against murder. It doesn't mean you're not operating on emotion either. Indeed the assertion you're not going to be lead by outrage while clearly displaying emotion in your argument means you're not even trying to correct for 'feelings'.

Opposing the bad policy or feeling angry at it doesn't make someone biased nor wrong. Overall the main problem with your argument apart from it relying on your faulty assertions is it ignores actual data to pretend there is a bias. The sheriff's own pdf is biased against he program and designed to generate emotion is it?

Now you're going to claim taking down your nonsense arguments is 'outrage' and 'emotion' in and of itself.
You don't think this thread is emotionally driven? Did you read the title of the thread? The hyperbolic max.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:41 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Warren Beatty?
It was only the "clouds in my coffee" part, bro.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I me I I'm me me me hey everyone this thread is about me.
Not to be confused with the groupthink position, of course. We never see that sort of thing, around here.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:16 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not to be confused with the groupthink position, of course. We never see that sort of thing, around here.
Not to be confused with holding a lonely position contrary to evidence. We never see that sort of thing around here either.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Not to be confused with holding a lonely position contrary to evidence. We never see that sort of thing around here either.
It was the "evidence" part that I was searching for, lol. Now that we have a little more, I updated my view on the matter.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No; I believe that all may be equally responsible, meaning 3 parts. I would put law, and execution of law as having the greatest responsibility, at this point. 2/3 of the problem. The bigger overall problem, to me, is just blindly accepting things as being fact. Which people seem to do based upon these articles which are designed to cause an emotional response.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:37 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You don't think this thread is emotionally driven? Did you read the title of the thread? The hyperbolic max.
Most discussions where human and civil rights are involved will include emotional arguments because even the assertions that "human rights" and "civil rights" should exist and that it is "wrong" for the government to violate them, are themselves emotional arguments.

Emotional arguments are actually fine and can be perfectly valid when discussing societal issues, because we're not dealing with, say, lab results.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Most discussions where human and civil rights are involved will include emotional arguments because even the assertions that "human rights" and "civil rights" should exist and that it is "wrong" for the government to violate them, are themselves emotional arguments.

Emotional arguments are actually fine and can be perfectly valid when discussing societal issues, because we're not dealing with, say, lab results.
I understand what you are saying. I am just contending that the standard of proof should be comparable, within the context, before we express outrage or promote a narrative.
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Old 27th July 2021, 03:52 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I could see this being OK if they had lots of carrot. We recognise that you have anger management issues so we are going to fund you attending counselling and an anger management group. We recognise that you are dyslexic have poor literacy and failed to graduate high school so we have arranged adult literacy classes. We recognise that your previous convictions make it hard for you to get employment so we have found employers prepared to take you on for a trial basis so you can get an employment history and reference to help you into long term employment we will also help you with how to complete applications and help with a resume.

The theme here seems to be 'the more you beat them, the better they be', and I am not sure that is even true with women, dogs or walnut trees.

You just think has no-one in this law enforcement department read anything on the causes of crime or the evidence of interventions to prevent criminality. Just picked up some ideas from right-wing web sites, and decided this makes evidence based policy. Well it worked for the last president I guess, so who can blame a small town sheriff.
I seem to recall some research carried out in Young Offenders Institutions over here which showed very high rates of either not previously diagnosed or else untreated dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD and other neuro-developmental issues among the YOI population. And that was from before services such as my old one and the related ones were cut to ribbons, when we had enough of a problem getting assessments for dyslexia or dyspraxia carried out and we were struggling with assessments for ADHD and the rest.
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Old 27th July 2021, 05:33 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this any different from the FBI or the NSA proactively keeping an eye on potential troublemakers in case they act up (again)?
It appears their screening process is horribly flawed, for one thing, disregarding if someone's "frequent offenses" have been acquitted, or if they were briefly a suspect and then were realized not to be involved, or making it more likely to add them to the list if they were a witness rather than someone involved. As well, it appears to go beyond "keeping an eye on" to initiating hostile interactions and threatening selective enforcement on minor code violations if the person doesn't forego the right to refuse a search.

It can snowball also--seems to me the very same frequent engagement will, just by increased scrutiny, lead to the person collecting more "points", making an exit from the list increasingly difficult.

To me it resembles (and some have called it out as) an attempt to force "troublemakers" and their families out of the county by harassment. And though I understand why that appeals to some, it is an abuse of the justice system.

If the FBI and the NSA are doing it this way also, it means that there's something horribly wrong with them too.
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Old 27th July 2021, 05:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm sure the ratio of minorities to white people in the program mirrors the general prison population, right?
There you go.
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Old 27th July 2021, 06:51 AM   #75
plague311
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It was the "evidence" part that I was searching for, lol. Now that we have a little more, I updated my view on the matter.
Yet, you haven't retracted your nonsensical claims about there being hyperbolic reporting. In this case, everything said in the news article is backed up by actual evidence.

Thoughts?
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Old 27th July 2021, 10:26 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post

To me it resembles (and some have called it out as) an attempt to force "troublemakers" and their families out of the county by harassment. And though I understand why that appeals to some, it is an abuse of the justice system.
This is precisely what this is, otherwise they wouldn't be sending out letters. They could get away with everything they are planning on doing otherwise because targeted harassment is hard to prove and the legal protection against it basically zero.
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Old 27th July 2021, 04:39 PM   #77
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So, like...they have lawyers in Florida right? This one takes Terry vs Ohio, folds it up, puts it in its wallet and spends in on blow.

Terry vs Ohio is the source of the now infamous Terry Stop. That's a SCOTUS decision that says police can stop and detain you if they can articulate a reasonable suspicion that you are about to (like right about to), are or just did commit a crime. They don't even make a pretense of reasonable suspicion.

This looks more like Lord Farkwad sending all the magical creatures to live in the Swamp in "Shrek". Just harass them until the leave.
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