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Old 28th July 2021, 11:57 PM   #41
CaptainHowdy
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Exactly that.
Creationists must be loving this.
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Old 29th July 2021, 12:59 AM   #42
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Apologise for posting twice.

Was just thinking will be lost at the very bottom of the 1st page.

Yhis i the official NZ government NCEA advisory on it with regard to science teaching.

Warning: big read

https://ncea.education.govt.nz/scien...?view=learning
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Old 29th July 2021, 02:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
First day of 9th grade science class way back in the early 80"s . A memorable moment based on this same story.

The teacher introduced herself and said by state law she has to teach creationism in addition to real science stuff.

She went on that in creationism the answer is goddidit and any other questions get the same answer.
And then she said she would spend the rest of the school year teaching the other stuff. And she didn't ever mention the religious stuff ever again.

The law was satisfied by her two minutes of compliance as far as public schools care. We also had classes that covered ancient mythology as history courses. Few took it.
First day of Chemistry at grammar school. Mr. Edwards holds up a beaker of water.

Mr. Edwards: Class 1h, who can tell me what I have in the beaker?

A bunch of eleven-year-olds (in unison): Water, Sir.

Mr Edwards: No. It is an odourless, colourless, tasteless liquid that is neither acid nor alkaline and has no effect on litmus paper. It is known as H²O.

1h <fx stunned impressed silence>

Imagine a Māori kid at the back: Hm. Dad told me, water is the essence of all life, akin to the blood of Papatuanuuku (Earth mother) who supports all people, plants and wildlife. Māori assert their tribal identity in relation to rivers and particular waterways have a role in tribal creation stories.
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Old 29th July 2021, 03:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
First day of Chemistry at grammar school. Mr. Edwards holds up a beaker of water.

Mr. Edwards: Class 1h, who can tell me what I have in the beaker?

A bunch of eleven-year-olds (in unison): Water, Sir.

Mr Edwards: No. It is an odourless, colourless, tasteless liquid that is neither acid nor alkaline and has no effect on litmus paper. It is known as H²O.

1h <fx stunned impressed silence>

Imagine a Māori kid at the back: Hm. Dad told me, water is the essence of all life, akin to the blood of Papatuanuuku (Earth mother) who supports all people, plants and wildlife. Māori assert their tribal identity in relation to rivers and particular waterways have a role in tribal creation stories.
This is one of the stupid bits of the govts thinking.

The vast majority of Maori are urban these days and were taught the same ***everyone else in the class was by their urban parents.

The days of classes of confused Maori kids disapprared a few denerations ago.

I'm only one example but trust ne I know in my circle.
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Old 29th July 2021, 03:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Creationists must be loving this.
Thank christ, but they're an insignificant minority here.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apologise for posting twice.
I posted it halfway down the first page too, so hopefully third time's the charm.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Imagine a Māori kid at the back: Hm. Dad told me, water is the essence of all life, akin to the blood of Papatuanuuku (Earth mother) who supports all people, plants and wildlife. Māori assert their tribal identity in relation to rivers and particular waterways have a role in tribal creation stories.
He'd also add "...and we own it all."

No, I'm not joking, Maori claim ownership of all the water in NZ. Haven't succeeded yet, but with Barbie in power, I wouldn't rule it out.
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Old 29th July 2021, 04:43 AM   #46
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Lot of hot takes coming in here and thin on evidence.

Any specific curriculum to support the idea that this general guidance is leading to pseudoscience being taught as fact?

Every school I ever attended spent quite a bit of teaching time on local history, culture, and the like. I don't see why this is any different. Maori are human beings, and like all human beings used all sorts of technology that can be used as examples for teaching science.
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
First day of Chemistry at grammar school. Mr. Edwards holds up a beaker of water.

Mr. Edwards: Class 1h, who can tell me what I have in the beaker?

A bunch of eleven-year-olds (in unison): Water, Sir.

Mr Edwards: No. It is an odourless, colourless, tasteless liquid that is neither acid nor alkaline and has no effect on litmus paper. It is known as H²O.

1h <fx stunned impressed silence>

Imagine a Māori kid at the back: Hm. Dad told me, water is the essence of all life, akin to the blood of Papatuanuuku (Earth mother) who supports all people, plants and wildlife. Māori assert their tribal identity in relation to rivers and particular waterways have a role in tribal creation stories.
All of those statements are true?
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:17 AM   #48
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What has the PM got to do with this?
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:51 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is one of the stupid bits of the govts thinking.

The vast majority of Maori are urban these days and were taught the same ***everyone else in the class was by their urban parents.

The days of classes of confused Maori kids disapprared a few denerations ago.

I'm only one example but trust ne I know in my circle.
Some questions: How important is Maori mythology to most Maori today? How much of it do they study?
In Maori? In English? Has anybody polled Maori parents to ask if they want the old lore taught as if it was authentic knowledge?

I guess I'm just asking, a bit anxiously, how insular, ingrown, and impenetrable the urban Maori really are?
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Old 29th July 2021, 10:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What has the PM got to do with this?
She's part of the push.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Some questions: How important is Maori mythology to most Maori today? How much of it do they study?
In Maori? In English? Has anybody polled Maori parents to ask if they want the old lore taught as if it was authentic knowledge?

I guess I'm just asking, a bit anxiously, how insular, ingrown, and impenetrable the urban Maori really are?
Now, those are really good questions, because only slightly more than 20% of Maori can actually speak Maori, and I'd expect that to be a good guide to their depth of engagement with the culture. (Interestingly, the Maori King - who is recognised by ~15% of Maori, can't speak Maori.)

It's the old squeaky wheel syndrome - a small number of Maori make the most noise and claim to represent all Maori, but nobody dare question them, because you'd be tied to a tree over a wasp nest with honey smeared on your balls.

And nobody's about to do any polling in case the result doesn't turn out the way those squeaky wheels want it to. The government spends 1/3 of its public TV broadcasting budget on Maori TV (which allows it to be the only ad-free network) and they have some excellent investigative reporters, but they're not going to touch it either.
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Old 29th July 2021, 11:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
She's part of the push.



Now, those are really good questions, because only slightly more than 20% of Maori can actually speak Maori, and I'd expect that to be a good guide to their depth of engagement with the culture. (Interestingly, the Maori King - who is recognised by ~15% of Maori, can't speak Maori.)

It's the old squeaky wheel syndrome - a small number of Maori make the most noise and claim to represent all Maori, but nobody dare question them, because you'd be tied to a tree over a wasp nest with honey smeared on your balls.

And nobody's about to do any polling in case the result doesn't turn out the way those squeaky wheels want it to. The government spends 1/3 of its public TV broadcasting budget on Maori TV (which allows it to be the only ad-free network) and they have some excellent investigative reporters, but they're not going to touch it either.
Enh, the least Irish people in America never shut up about being Irish.
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What has the PM got to do with this?
She is on record pushing it to the max. She also supposedly runs the govt.

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Old 29th July 2021, 07:47 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Enh, the least Irish people in America never shut up about being Irish.
Huh, I never realised they were the indigenous people of USA. Thanks for that.
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Old 29th July 2021, 08:15 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
She is on record pushing it to the max. She also supposedly runs the govt.

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Nothing specific and just a that she’s a culture war enemy.
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Old 29th July 2021, 10:54 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Nothing specific and just a that she’s a culture war enemy.
Are you joking?
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Old 2nd August 2021, 05:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Call me too optimistic, but it really seems like the purpose of including lessons on mātauranga pūtaiao isn't oppositional, it isn't to use native mythology stories to challenge or replace or as an alternative narrative to scientific theories and concepts or the scientific method. It's no Intelligent Design situation. In fact I don't read a whiff of anti-science subtext anywhere on this page. Quite the contrary; the text on the page clearly indicates that scientific methodology is considered important and irreplaceable.
And yet it places "western science" on the same level as "maori worldview". Science and maori myths "both have authority". If anything it's exceptionally presumptuous to argue that Maori have some kind of wondrous native insight that "solve world problems". What mystical native wisdom do they have that solve world problems?

It's like theres this urge to compensate for feelings of sociocultural inadequacies by presenting Maori mythology and traditions as having important knowledge that is inaccessible to science. Not just important to the Maori people themselves mind you, but important to the whole world.

When maori shamans call upon their ancestors to create cures for disease or reveal how to construct room-temperature superconductors I will treat their native wisdom as equal to "western" science.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:08 AM   #57
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So who ran the four-minute-mile first? Was it Roger Banister in 1952 or is it possible a Maori did this centuries ago already?
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:25 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So who ran the four-minute-mile first? Was it Roger Banister in 1952 or is it possible a Maori did this centuries ago already?
Of course it’s possible. What does the word record mean?
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So who ran the four-minute-mile first? Was it Roger Banister in 1952 or is it possible a Maori did this centuries ago already?
As long as nobody says this runner, attested to in the myths and legends of the Maori people, holds the world record for first four-minute-mile, it probably doesn't matter.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 01:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As long as nobody says this runner, attested to in the myths and legends of the Maori people, holds the world record for first four-minute-mile, it probably doesn't matter.
Because the idea of (an official) world record is based on operational definitions and associated technologies in Western culture. There is however no reason for athletics culture in NZ to not embrace any such person’s feats and lore. Western sports are full of such oral traditions that lack strict measurement conditions.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 02:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
And yet it places "western science" on the same level as "maori worldview". Science and maori myths "both have authority".
We already have certain evidence that mātauranga Maori trumps engineering when a road designed for efficiency and safety had to me moved because a 10m2 pond was home to a taniwha.

I worked out that as well as costing an extra $300k for the road to be redesigned, it costs the country over $500,000 a year in increased transport costs caused by the extra distance needed to avoid the pond.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 02:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Because the idea of (an official) world record is based on operational definitions and associated technologies in Western culture. There is however no reason for athletics culture in NZ to not embrace any such person’s feats and lore. Western sports are full of such oral traditions that lack strict measurement conditions.
4 minutes is slow.

We had a mile race in the '80s which set a record of 3:28. https://spikes.worldathletics.org/po...en-street-mile Current fastest is 3:24, compared to the official record of 3:43.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 02:53 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
We already have certain evidence that mātauranga Maori trumps engineering when a road designed for efficiency and safety had to me moved because a 10m2 pond was home to a taniwha.

I worked out that as well as costing an extra $300k for the road to be redesigned, it costs the country over $500,000 a year in increased transport costs caused by the extra distance needed to avoid the pond.
Would be less controversial if it was a site related to the Jesus or other myths valued in Western culture.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 03:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
4 minutes is slow.

We had a mile race in the '80s which set a record of 3:28. https://spikes.worldathletics.org/po...en-street-mile Current fastest is 3:24, compared to the official record of 3:43.
Tell me you're playing the fool without telling me your playing the fool:

Acting proud about getting a better time on a downhill track.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 03:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Would be less controversial if it was a site related to the Jesus or other myths valued in Western culture.
I can't think of any circumstances that would have happened.

We've bulldozed hundreds of churches and shifted thousands of graves from christian and Jewish cemeteries without an outcry resulting in change to plans.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Tell me you're playing the fool without telling me your playing the fool:
If you read the post I replied to, you'd realise your post is 100% spurious.
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