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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 9th July 2021, 06:26 PM   #3121
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I'll agree on those weaknesses in my hypothetical question.

I hope I can say that my point survives--that majority opinion of welcomeness is problematic as the main way to decide the rules.
That's what I meant by "the problems of majority rule."
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Old 12th July 2021, 03:16 PM   #3122
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Good article here by Jesse Singal in response to a low key kerfuffle over Science Based Medicine removing a review of A. Shrier’s Irreversible Damage from their website. The review was written by none other than Dr. Harriet Hall, a regular contributor to the SBM website.

Since removing Hall’s review, there have apparently been three entries posted on SBM responding to her (removed) review, including one co-written by SBM founders Novella and Gorski themselves.

Singal’s piece is a critique of Novella’s and Gorksi’s article. It also serves as a very thorough overview of the current evidence and consensus on health care for dysphoric youth. Well worth a read.

https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/h...dicine-botched
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Old 14th July 2021, 02:22 AM   #3123
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
Thank you for that - it was fascinating.
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Old 14th July 2021, 07:38 AM   #3124
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Sian Berry quits as Green party leader in dispute over trans rights [The Guardian]

"A vocal supporter of trans equality, Berry had said one of the first things she would do as mayor would be to set up a commission on the rights of trans Londoners. In her resignation letter on Wednesday, Berry said there had been significant disagreement with colleagues elected to the party’s frontbench team. However, she did not give further details."
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Old 14th July 2021, 08:18 AM   #3125
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Sian Berry quits as Green party leader in dispute over trans rights [The Guardian]

"A vocal supporter of trans equality, Berry had said one of the first things she would do as mayor would be to set up a commission on the rights of trans Londoners. In her resignation letter on Wednesday, Berry said there had been significant disagreement with colleagues elected to the party’s frontbench team. However, she did not give further details."
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for those significant disagreements. I would also have been very interested in what rights of trans Londoners the commission recognized, and on what basis.
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Old 14th July 2021, 03:46 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
Singal’s piece is a critique of Novella’s and Gorksi’s article. It also serves as a very thorough overview of the current evidence and consensus on health care for dysphoric youth. Well worth a read.
I'll second Matthew's thanks for that - an excellent, thoughtful, and clearly honest piece.

It's funny how the the trans debate of all things is at the cutting edge of the politicisation of science.

This bit stood out:

Quote:
Again, Schrödinger’s Evidence: When the Dutch find that most kids desist, their “methods [are] so fatally flawed that the results cannot be trusted.” When the Dutch find that trans adolescents tend to stay trans, no such qualms. Isolated demands for rigor, indeed.
It's the recurring theme in all of the trans question - people pick their side before considering the evidence. I am definitely in the Dutch camp of erring on the side of caution.
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Old 15th July 2021, 03:20 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Sian Berry quits as Green party leader in dispute over trans rights [The Guardian]

"A vocal supporter of trans equality, Berry had said one of the first things she would do as mayor would be to set up a commission on the rights of trans Londoners. In her resignation letter on Wednesday, Berry said there had been significant disagreement with colleagues elected to the party’s frontbench team. However, she did not give further details."
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for those significant disagreements. I would also have been very interested in what rights of trans Londoners the commission recognized, and on what basis.
Went looking for some more information... and there's some suggestion that Berry stepped down in part because Shahrar Ali was selected as the spokesperson for policing and domestic safety... and they made the unforgiveable error of actually knowing what a woman is, not being afraid to say so, and recognizing that women's rights exist as separate from those of transgender people.



https://twitter.com/ShahrarAli/statu...35761043296258

Quote:
A woman is commonly defined as an adult human female and, genetically, typified by two XX chromosomes. These facts are not in dispute nor should they be in any political party.
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Old 15th July 2021, 03:22 PM   #3128
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I'm seriously at a loss to understand the world when a position acknowledging reality is being treated as an "attack" on pomo science deniers.
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Old 16th July 2021, 07:07 AM   #3129
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm seriously at a loss to understand the world when a position acknowledging reality is being treated as an "attack" on pomo science deniers.
How do you know what indigenous tribe they belong to?

Serious answer--a factually accurate statement can still be part of a fallacious or ill-intentioned argument.

Is it certain that was the part that caused trouble?

An absurd example to make the point:

Person A says: "Water is wet. Therefore we should bulldoze houses in flood zones."

Later: "I can't believe everyone's so mad just because I acknowledged water is wet."
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Old 16th July 2021, 03:57 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
How do you know what indigenous tribe they belong to?

Serious answer--a factually accurate statement can still be part of a fallacious or ill-intentioned argument.

Is it certain that was the part that caused trouble?

An absurd example to make the point:

Person A says: "Water is wet. Therefore we should bulldoze houses in flood zones."

Later: "I can't believe everyone's so mad just because I acknowledged water is wet."
Yes, it's certain. The fact that they provided a definition of women that does not include some males is what is viewed as an "attack".
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Old 17th July 2021, 04:49 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes, it's certain. The fact that they provided a definition of women that does not include some males is what is viewed as an "attack".
I am not trying to be difficult, but I don't see that this is clearly a primary reason for a split between Berry and Shahrar Ali. There are plenty of other related policy issues they may not be able to see eye to eye on.

What I see is that some people think this is why. That is far from confirmed unless there's something I missed in the reading.
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Old 17th July 2021, 05:40 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for those significant disagreements. I would also have been very interested in what rights of trans Londoners the commission recognized, and on what basis.

Same here.
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Old 17th July 2021, 08:13 PM   #3133
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Dozens of people have been arrested in*Los Angeles*following a chaotic and at times violent demonstration by anti-transgender protesters who targeted a Koreatown spa that has a trans-inclusive policy allowing trans women to use women’s facilities.

Saturday marked the second weekend of violent protests this month in the streets around Wi Spa, a neighborhood business that has found itself at the heart of a right-wing media storm over an alleged incident in which a customer filmed herself complaining about a trans woman in the women’s area of the spa.

The far-right protesters called for a boycott of Wi Spa and chanted baseless claims about paedophilia, as women carrying signs reading “protect female spaces” and “It’s worse in women’s shelters” marched alongside men wearing helmets and masks that covered their faces.

Calls to defend “female spaces” and “women’s shelters” have become rallying cries of anti-trans groups, who have falsely suggested that trans-inclusive policies endanger cis women. California has for years had laws in place that allow trans people to use facilities that match their gender.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-turns-violent

Not-transphobic people non-violently protest the horrible misogynist spa business. Truly real women have no one that cares about their rights except neo-nazis and other far-right extremists. This would not have occurred in Nazi-Germany!
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Old 17th July 2021, 10:34 PM   #3134
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An article on Spiked! arguing that Trans-activisim is simply reinforcing old gender stereotypes.


Quote:
‘What is a woman?’, asked Simone de Beauvoir in The Second Sex, before adding that the counterpart question never needs to be asked. Man somehow transcends his biology. He is the default, the generic human being. Woman is the embodied Other, defined by her sex, which, rather than being merely biological, is assumed to entail the roles and characteristics that she has traditionally been expected to embody.




De Beauvoir wanted to prise apart this arbitrary characterisation of woman, and separate ‘gender’ from what is actually ineluctable — namely, sex. This, she hoped, would break the shackles in which women had been immemorially bound. So it was that The Second Sex launched the transformative wave of postwar feminism.


Now, 70-odd years later, the question that de Beauvoir hoped to make redundant is pertinent again, and the sex / gender distinction that she opened up is, as Helen Joyce laments in her new book Trans, turned on its head. It is now used to reconfirm the very stereotypes it was designed to subvert.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...s-of-feminism/
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Old 18th July 2021, 04:46 AM   #3135
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Anti-trans bigotry again used by the fascist right as an excuse to engage in widespread street violence.

Fascists, cloaking themselves in the language of TERF anti-trans bigotry, again descended on Wi Spa in LA and went on a violent spree aided by the LAPD.

Proud boys and other fascist elements attacked journalists and other peaceful bystanders in addition to battling with antifascist counter protestors. A journalist for the Guardian was assaulted multiple times when she refused to stop covering the event and leave the area:

Quote:
Was interviewing right-wing protesters a the Wi Spa and this helmeted person interrupted my conversation with a young woman, silently gestured me to go away. When I continued to follow the protesters down the street and talked to me, slapped my phone and notebook out of my hand.

...


As a female journalist trying to interview women at a right-wing protest over trans rights at a Los Angeles spa, I was just chased, pushed, and thrown to the ground.
https://twitter.com/loisbeckett/stat...70735283884034

Proud Boys pepper sprayed a passerby onlooker who simply stopped to asked questions:

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status...84067072167938

LAPD responded as they usually, by using illegal force against the left while largely ignoring the fascist right they are sympathetic towards. LAPD assaulted multiple journalists, including breaking one's hand with repeated baton strikes, and fired a "less lethal" shotgun and dangerously close range at a nonviolent protestor. LAPD made posts bragging about seizing a helmet and some a shield while ignoring masked and armored fascists patrolling the streets with bats.

At least in LA, the TERF-Fascist alignment is being made explicitly clear.
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Old 18th July 2021, 06:55 AM   #3136
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
An article on Spiked! arguing that Trans-activisim is simply reinforcing old gender stereotypes.





https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...s-of-feminism/
Yes you hear a lot these days about how trans activists want to restrict womens freedoms by forcing them them to adhere to traditional standards of femininity.


Incidentally, if this was actually true, would this not be desirable to the TERF far-right soliders-in-arms?
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Old 20th July 2021, 10:02 AM   #3137
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I am not trying to be difficult, but I don't see that this is clearly a primary reason for a split between Berry and Shahrar Ali. There are plenty of other related policy issues they may not be able to see eye to eye on.

What I see is that some people think this is why. That is far from confirmed unless there's something I missed in the reading.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion on the matter. So far as I can tell, none of Ali's positions would constitute a lack of support for the dignity, rights, and fair treatment of transgender people at all. But they do explicitly provide a definition of woman that excludes males, and the response to that definition was responded to as an attack on the trans community.
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Old 20th July 2021, 10:02 AM   #3138
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I am not trying to be difficult, but I don't see that this is clearly a primary reason for a split between Berry and Shahrar Ali. There are plenty of other related policy issues they may not be able to see eye to eye on.

What I see is that some people think this is why. That is far from confirmed unless there's something I missed in the reading.
There seems to be a major split in views in the Green Party.

The Young Greens have asked for him to be removed:

https://bright-green.org/2021/07/18/...-spokesperson/

Quote:
The second area raised by the Young Greens’ motion is in relation to Ali’s support for an emergency motion proposed – although not debated – at the 2020 Autumn Green Party conference. Ali’s motion called for the prohibition of the privately run online transgender healthcare clinic GenderGP and claimed that GenderGP is “putting patient safety at risk” by – among other things – “providing puberty blockers to children as young as 10”.

The motion passed by Young Greens Convention claimed that the motion to prohibit GenderGP proposed by Ali, “seeks to undermine” the right of young people and children to access gender-affirming therapy – which the party supports – “by claiming that GenderGP is acting inappropriately, when in fact it is following standard NHS practice with regards to the age of children accessing puberty blockers.” The motion adopted by the Young Greens also claimed that prohibiting GenderGP from operating would create an additional barrier to trans people who need to access services that provide gender affirming therapy.
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Old 20th July 2021, 10:07 AM   #3139
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
An article on Spiked! arguing that Trans-activisim is simply reinforcing old gender stereotypes.
For further reading, 2 recently published books reviewed in the Guardain

https://amp.theguardian.com/books/20...mpression=true
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Old 21st July 2021, 06:44 AM   #3140
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Quote:
A group of transgender rights activists Tuesday announced a lawsuit against the Los Angeles Police Department for its handling of recent protests outside Wi Spa in Koreatown.

...

The suit alleges LAPD officers used batons to break a journalist’s arm, shot projectiles at fleeing protesters at close range and allowed conservative protesters to duck behind police lines for protection.

“What we saw at the Wi Spa protests were atrocious human rights violations committed by LAPD,” attorney Christian Contreras said.

The lawsuit also questions officers’ use of less-lethal projectiles against protesters despite a recent federal court order restricting their use.

In videos posted to social media from the protest, a group of LAPD officers appear to use batons on counter-protesters who were already on the ground and another LAPD officer appears to fire a less-lethal round at a woman standing on the sidewalk with her hands in the air.
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2021...-spa-protests/
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Old 22nd July 2021, 05:30 AM   #3141
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Another L for the transphobes in the US

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Breaking: A judge says West Virginia can't block transgender girls from being on girls' sports teams.

The judge wrote: "I have been provided with scant evidence that this law addresses any problem at all, let alone an important problem"

The injunction issued today only prohibits West Virginia from discriminating against the plaintiff, an 11-year-old who, while assigned the sex of male at birth, knew from a young age that she's a girl.

But the judge made clear his view: WV's law is unconstitutional in general.
https://twitter.com/JanNWolfe/status...57648071340034
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Old 24th July 2021, 01:09 PM   #3142
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Trans men fight back.

A different perspective.

'As many clinicians and community members such as ourselves have observed, most of the people at the forefront of trans activism are those heterosexual males with AGP - Which they don’t want anyone to know.
As trans men, we wish to step forward and expose this because those with AGP have abused and silenced us for years in order to control the narrative.'
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:32 PM   #3143
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In the same vein as Jesse Singal’s piece that offered a comprehensive view of the current state of medical care for dysphoric youth, here’s a rather chilling piece by Katie Herzog. This one addresses the current state of medical school training, and how in some schools politics and ideology are putting practical, evidence-based scientific training and research in peril.

This is actually the second in a series. I have yet to read the first article but it’s linked in the introduction at the top of the page.

Med Schools Are Now Denying Biological Sex

Originally Posted by Katie Herzog
During a recent endocrinology course at a top medical school in the University of California system, a professor stopped mid-lecture to apologize for something he’d said at the beginning of class.

“I don’t want you to think that I am in any way trying to imply anything, and if you can summon some generosity to forgive me, I would really appreciate it,” the physician says in a recording provided by a student in the class (whom I’ll call Lauren). “Again, I’m very sorry for that. It was certainly not my intention to offend anyone. The worst thing that I can do as a human being is be offensive.”*

His offense: using the term “pregnant women.”*

“I said ‘when a woman is pregnant,’ which implies that only women can get pregnant and I most sincerely apologize to all of you.”

It wasn’t the first time Lauren had heard an instructor apologize for using language that, to most Americans, would seem utterly inoffensive. Words like “male” and “female.”

Why would medical school professors apologize for referring to a patient’s biological sex? Because, Lauren explains, in the context of her medical school “acknowledging biological sex can be considered transphobic.”

[. . .]

Medicine is not impervious to trends.

“In the 90s, when I was training, everything was about controlling pain,” said a pediatrician in the Midwest who declined to be named for fear of repercussions. “We were taught that it was really hard to become addicted to narcotics. Look where that got us.”

Around the same time, she says, there was a rash of kids being diagnosed with bipolar disorder, something we now know is exceedingly rare in children. Before that, there was the recovered memory craze, multiple personality disorder, and rebirthing therapy, a bizarre treatment for attachment disorders that lead to the deaths of several children in the U.S.
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Old 1st August 2021, 04:23 PM   #3144
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The first time I heard anyone say that 'Biological sex is a social construct' was around the time Jordan Peterson started becoming prominent. He was on a Canadian TV show and the (physically) male person he was up against used a line similar to that in their rebuttal to whatever it was that Peterson was saying, at the time I thought it was a bizarre thing to say.


Nowadays, well as this article on The Quackometer indicates, it's par for the course.


Quote:
Prospect Magazine is an “intellectuals'” magazine in the UK covering arts, society, science and politics. Their Summer issue contains an essay by journalist Angela Saini called “What is a woman?”. I wrote a twitter thread detailing how this essay is a good example of a type of argument used to trick people into thinking sex is not a well established scientific concept. This is that (slightly edited) twitter thread…


This is a pretty dire article in @Prospect_uk where journalist Angela Saini falls headfirst into the postmodernist gender vat. I think we need to look at as many errors as we can stand here…


We start off by noting the ideological title – “What is a Woman?” – because make no mistake, the target of the ideology is the elimination of the concept of being a woman in objective terms. Men. Back to your business, no need to worry.

https://www.quackometer.net/blog/202...on-gambit.html
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Old 1st August 2021, 05:22 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another L for the transphobes in the US



https://twitter.com/JanNWolfe/status...57648071340034
Not wanting biological men to ruin women's sports is transphobic?
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Old 1st August 2021, 07:54 PM   #3146
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another L for the transphobes in the US
From the decision in B.P.J. v. West Virginia State Board of Education:
Quote:
Plaintiff avers that this treatment, which prevents endogenous puberty and therefore any physiological changes caused by increased testosterone circulation, prevents her from developing any physiological advantage over other girl athletes.
This strikes me as a highly plausible argument, but it's fairly easily distinguishable from the MtF weightlifter in the OP.
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Old 1st August 2021, 10:41 PM   #3147
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Hubbard competes in the Olympic weight lifting tonight.

Should be interesting.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympi...laurel-hubbard
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:18 AM   #3148
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Hubbard competes in the Olympic weight lifting tonight.

Should be interesting.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympi...laurel-hubbard
"It would not be unreasonable for Hubbard to place anywhere from third on a very good day to 14th if she again bombs out."

Looks like Hubbard bombed out.

One of the odd things I've seen in discussions of this issue is Hubbard's mediocrity used as an excuse for why we shouldn't be concerned about biologically male athletes competing against biologically female athletes. After all, even Hubbard's best lifts would be well short of winning gold. But it's really not a good excuse. Looking at the male heavy weight lifters in the men's category for the finals, they range in age from 22 to 34. I couldn't find the ages for the equivalent women's category, but the gold medal winner (Li Wenwen) is 22. Hubbard is 43. That's over the hill for the sport, and Hubbard apparently spent many years not training at all. The fact that Hubbard made it to the Olympics at all at that age is likely because of the advantages of a male biology. If a younger male athlete transitions and competes, we may well see someone dominating the sport.

BTW, for comparison, Li Wenwen's lifts were 140 kg snatch and 180 kg clean & jerk, which was an Olympic record for the total of 320kg. The men's Olympic record for the total is 485 kg. 320 kg vs. 485 kg. And before anyone asks, both Li Wenwen and Laurel Hubbard would be in the heaviest weight category for male lifters as well.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:52 AM   #3149
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
There seems to be a major split in views in the Green Party.

The Young Greens have asked for him to be removed:

https://bright-green.org/2021/07/18/...-spokesperson/
Wow. Given that the person in charge of Gender GP is currently in the midst of a serious review of their professionalism and business practices with respect to patient safety... Ali's position seems to be a responsible one.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:53 AM   #3150
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another L for the transphobes in the US



https://twitter.com/JanNWolfe/status...57648071340034
Another L for females in a male dominated and increasingly misogynistic world.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:56 AM   #3151
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Trans men fight back.

A different perspective.

'As many clinicians and community members such as ourselves have observed, most of the people at the forefront of trans activism are those heterosexual males with AGP - Which they don’t want anyone to know.
As trans men, we wish to step forward and expose this because those with AGP have abused and silenced us for years in order to control the narrative.'
And just that quickly, it's been removed. There are other references to it out there, but the letter is gone.

There is a pattern here. When females speak out, they get silenced. Even when those females are themselves transgender.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 09:04 AM   #3152
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"It would not be unreasonable for Hubbard to place anywhere from third on a very good day to 14th if she again bombs out."

Looks like Hubbard bombed out.

One of the odd things I've seen in discussions of this issue is Hubbard's mediocrity used as an excuse for why we shouldn't be concerned about biologically male athletes competing against biologically female athletes. After all, even Hubbard's best lifts would be well short of winning gold. But it's really not a good excuse. Looking at the male heavy weight lifters in the men's category for the finals, they range in age from 22 to 34. I couldn't find the ages for the equivalent women's category, but the gold medal winner (Li Wenwen) is 22. Hubbard is 43. That's over the hill for the sport, and Hubbard apparently spent many years not training at all. The fact that Hubbard made it to the Olympics at all at that age is likely because of the advantages of a male biology. If a younger male athlete transitions and competes, we may well see someone dominating the sport.

BTW, for comparison, Li Wenwen's lifts were 140 kg snatch and 180 kg clean & jerk, which was an Olympic record for the total of 320kg. The men's Olympic record for the total is 485 kg. 320 kg vs. 485 kg. And before anyone asks, both Li Wenwen and Laurel Hubbard would be in the heaviest weight category for male lifters as well.
TL;DR: Another trans boogiewoman turned out to be nothing more than anti-trans panic-mongering.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 01:24 PM   #3153
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Going to the Olympics is a huge deal for an athlete, regardless of medal status. Hubbard took a spot that a female earned.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 01:45 PM   #3154
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Regarding the Olympics, it looks like OIC is revising their guidelines for transgender participation, citing their current rules as outdated.

https://sports.yahoo.com/why-io-cs-o...033812786.html

In an interesting turn of events, however, "outdated" in this case means that they're making the requirements stricter.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 01:46 PM   #3155
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Regarding the Wi Spa events...

Five Women Have Filed Police Reports Alleging Indecent Exposure at Wi Spa
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:08 PM   #3156
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
TL;DR: Another trans boogiewoman turned out to be nothing more than anti-trans panic-mongering.
No doubt Roviel Detenamo takes great comfort in this.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 03:21 AM   #3157
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Going to the Olympics is a huge deal for an athlete, regardless of medal status. Hubbard took a spot that a female earned.
That;s what I said way back at the start.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Regarding the Olympics, it looks like OIC is revising their guidelines for transgender participation, citing their current rules as outdated.
That's something we can actually thank Hubbard for. Luckily, her age meant she couldn't dominate as she would have if she were much younger, and it showed the officials that the rules were open to being exploited.

Nice to see the testosterone rule preventing several women athletes from competing in the 800m, so we might have a fair race this year.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 04:24 AM   #3158
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hard to see this going anywhere considering California law makes discriminating against trans people in public accommodations illegal.

Perhaps the anti-trans crowd should stop violently assaulting people and protesting outside a spa, which is simply obeying the law, and take it up with their elected representatives.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 04:16 PM   #3159
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hard to see this going anywhere considering California law makes discriminating against trans people in public accommodations illegal.

Perhaps the anti-trans crowd should stop violently assaulting people and protesting outside a spa, which is simply obeying the law, and take it up with their elected representatives.
This highlights an issue that the trans-advocates keep pretending doesn't exist.

I mean, first off, it would be awfully nice if females with concerns about female safety and dignity weren't labeled and dehumanized as "anti-trans". Most of us aren't anti-trans in any meaningful way, we just don't think that gender identity should supplant biological sex under the law. At the end of the day, a transman is not actually male, they are female but wish to live their lives as males. Their wish shouldn't be taken to be more real than the reality of male biology. Similarly, a transwoman is not actually female, they are male but wish to live their lives as females... which shouldn't override protections and services that are designed to address female needs - including privacy.

This incident highlights that the desire of transwomen to affirm their gender identity does actually put them at odds with the dignity and rights of females. The transwoman in question desires to be treated as if they are an actual female person, and believes that their genitals are irrelevant. And perhaps to them they are irrelevant. But those genitals are NOT irrelevant to the other females who use that spa, and who use it based on the understanding that the areas are segregated by sex.

Those females did not consent to having a visible penis in their presence while they were nude. To them, this is indecent exposure. It's tantamount to flashing - being forced to view another person naked against their will, especially one of the opposite sex.

Those females did not consent to being viewed by penis-havers while naked. To them, that's voyeurism. It's tantamount to a peeping tom - being forced to allow other people to view them while naked against their will, especially by one of the opposite sex.

Doesn't consent mean anything any more?

Why are we expected to be complicit in destroying our own boundaries, and in relinquishing our right to consent because a male person's desire to be naked in our presence, and to view us while naked, is deemed more important than our right to refuse them?
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Old 4th August 2021, 10:57 AM   #3160
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
Good article here by Jesse Singal in response to a low key kerfuffle over Science Based Medicine removing a review of A. Shrier’s Irreversible Damage from their website. The review was written by none other than Dr. Harriet Hall, a regular contributor to the SBM website.
Finally got around to reading the original book review. Not exactly obvious what Dr. Hall got wrong here.
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