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Old 30th July 2021, 11:23 AM   #161
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Indirectly. Was addressed earlier. Dispatch gets all Intel from callers, and make decisions based on the callers input. Callers are not exactly guaranteed to be objective or qualified to make the determination. That's why about 1 in 20 went bad enough to call in the calvary.
How is that any different than the dispatcher deciding to send police/fire/emt/animal control? I saw EMTs responding to a homeless guy on the sidewalk where I work, who was either dead or unconscious on the sidewalk*, no police presence. Obviously someone made the call, and someone decided it was OK to send EMTs without police backup. NYC is just adding one more tool to emergency services.

*I work in a "lovely" area just north of downtown ABQ where the homeless camp under I-40 and at a dog park.
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Old 30th July 2021, 11:27 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
But why?

Is there something non-police responders have that people really want to "slaughter" them for?

If someone wants to assault random strangers for no reason, there are a million ways to get someone to you. Order a pizza.

This is, as usual for you, a bizarre fact free fantasy that seems designed to smear black people as violent animals by imagining things that are based on no evidence.
You have a very stereotypical view of Harlem. Racist, even. Ever been?

Re: "lambs to slaughter" I meant it as innocents going into a nasty situation that would not end well for them. But I can see how DL racists like yourself would misconstrue that obvious meaning. So withdrawn.
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Old 30th July 2021, 11:52 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
How is that any different than the dispatcher deciding to send police/fire/emt/animal control? I saw EMTs responding to a homeless guy on the sidewalk where I work, who was either dead or unconscious on the sidewalk*, no police presence. Obviously someone made the call, and someone decided it was OK to send EMTs without police backup. NYC is just adding one more tool to emergency services.

*I work in a "lovely" area just north of downtown ABQ where the homeless camp under I-40 and at a dog park.
B-HEARD is responding to mental health crisis calls. Ya really think that is comparable to a guy laying motionless on the sidewalk?
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Old 30th July 2021, 12:03 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's where I'm at. The pushback comes from posters saying it was only 7 times they had to call for backup. That's not insignificant, if the problem is heavy and it's your unarmed ass that has to deal with it.
We don't have details that I can find on the circumstances where the B-HEARD team called in for backup. It may have been from a purely precautionary stance rather than reacting to being assaulted. The news story does not say if any of the B-HEARD staff were injured in any way. Also, "and it's your unarmed ass that has to deal with it"... I'm making an assumption here... but, I have little doubt that the people working for the project volunteered to be there, and are perfectly aware of the dangers. Its honestly like being a cop, or a firefighter, or a road-construction crewman, or a fisherman. There are risks that are inherent in some lines of work. Don't like it? Find another line of work.

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Old 30th July 2021, 12:04 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
B-HEARD is responding to mental health crisis calls. Ya really think that is comparable to a guy laying motionless on the sidewalk?
Insofar as some qualified person listened to a 911 caller and decided police weren't the right people to send? Yes.
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Old 30th July 2021, 12:04 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You have a very stereotypical view of Harlem. Racist, even. Ever been?

Re: "lambs to slaughter" I meant it as innocents going into a nasty situation that would not end well for them. But I can see how DL racists like yourself would misconstrue that obvious meaning. So withdrawn.
I'm not racist, you're the real racist for seeing racism when I'm saying *those people* in Harlem all want to kill the mental health people!

/sarcasm
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Old 30th July 2021, 12:19 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'm not racist, you're the real racist for seeing racism when I'm saying *those people* in Harlem all want to kill the mental health people!

/sarcasm
And wareyin's here, projecting his weird racial hangups on another completely race-free story!

I think there's only two more of the paternal racist crew to check in to have a full quorum. I'll get beer for you if you want. How about Black and Tans? Oooooh, no, you wouldn't like them very much, while accusing everyone else of not liking them.
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Old 30th July 2021, 12:27 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And wareyin's here, projecting his weird racial hangups on another completely race-free story!

I think there's only two more of the paternal racist crew to check in to have a full quorum. I'll get beer for you if you want. How about Black and Tans? Oooooh, no, you wouldn't like them very much, while accusing everyone else of not liking them.
Your childish "nuh-uh, you are" is bad enough, but to repeat it after it gets pointed out? Is that the best you can do?
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Old 30th July 2021, 03:09 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dude. You and I have been doing this for years. Years. You absolutely 100% know that I am flippant. You know that half what I say means something else, and the other half doesn't mean anything at all.
That would be fine, except when someone treats the wrong sentence as unserious you get angry and complain; e.g.:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're such a goddamned liar. I complimented you twice on posting the job application. You snip things out or change the subject when they get thorny for your argument.
You "complimented me twice" - right but, "half of what you say means something else, and the other half doesn't mean anything at all". A lot of the time, the statements which you protest are honest are indistinguishable from your facetious ones, often appearing directly adjacent with nothing whatsoever to mark the change in voice. And there's no consistency in when you choose to be unserious either - there are no helpful rules like "anything you say that looks like a compliment is meant seriously" because you do sometimes give facetious "praise", for instance.

All of this makes it often impossible for anyone to know whether you're "just joking, brah" or saying something serious in any given sentence - which is why, like now, you're getting upset because I'm taking you too literally even though I should "know better", and then in the very next paragraph upset because I dismissed your compliments as insincere. Can you see how this makes discussions with you frustrating? Especially when someone mistakes one of your "jokes" for a serious comment and makes a considerable effort at answering it earnestly, only to find out that they just wasted their time.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seriously: if you are offended by my postings, please accept my apologies. I have a bad habit of thinking these threads are good natured, and some irreverence (while giving kudos for a good catch) is within bounds.
I appreciate that. It's not that you're necessarily offensive, and there's nothing wrong with levity. But you could maybe stand to read the room better, and please understand that it's not as obvious when you're being serious and when you're not, as you seem to think it is.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again: my argument has been to be critical of the information presented, as it is preliminary and vague. And yet again, the program shows promise and I hope it works out. See my last response to arthwollipot regarding how safe I consider 1:20 backfires to be. I don't call that noise range.
I don't think they ARE backfires, though. The fact that a B-HEARD team had to ask for police assistance during a given call does not mean that call was a failure, anymore than that one town's fire department having to call police when their guys were ambushed by an active shooter means the fire dispatch was a "backfire". It's not a case of a B-HEARD team getting in over their heads and begging for police help in a panic. The NYPD, had a hand in setting operational standards for the B-HEARD teams. Calling for police is the actual procedure they're supposed to follow when their assessment indicates it's necessary or certain circumstances arise, and the fact that it has happened demonstrates the system is working the way it was designed, not that the system is dysfunctional or that someone made a mistake.

B-HEARD, and the people who created it, don't contend that police response is never necessary in behavioral emergencies. Nothing in their own statements even suggests that. Rather, the idea is that police response isn't always necessary and that patients and the public positively benefit when police aren't present and involved in instances in which they're not needed.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another silver serving platter gone unappreciated.

The program boasts additional pay for this gig. Yet as we see by the salary, it falls below the bottom of entry level positions for the LCSW salary, while actually requiring field experience. Anything strike you as odd there? Like maybe LCSW pay is not the baseline, but rather run-of-the-mill social worker pay? Kind of like maybe they are fishing for Level 3 workers now, but fully expect to drop to taking Level 1&2 as positions are filled?
Nah; looking through the NYC Health + Hospitals hiring website, $62,112 to $71,429 is simply THE salary range for that professional tier, it's the same exact spread for all other Social Worker Level 3 postings in all positions and departments across the public hospital system.

NYCH+H does have postings for Level 2 Social Workers. Level 2s have a salary range of $62k to $66k, and they must also be LMSWs or LCSWs. The BE-HEARD project, however, is not hiring anything less than Level 3s (they do have an additional posting for Level 5s, though).

There are no postings anywhere in NYCH+H for Social Worker Level 1. Either the category doesn't exist at all, or NYCH+H simply doesn't hire them for anything. They may hire less-than-LCSWs for certain jobs that might fall under the general colloquial umbrella of "social work" but they do not refer to them by the "social worker" job title; looks like you need a license to be called a social worker, at least as far as the city government is concerned.

The additional pay you mention, is not for the social workers, it's going to the EMTs/paramedics, and they are hired and assigned by FDNY, not NYCH+H.
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Old 30th July 2021, 03:21 PM   #170
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THERMAL: Joe Dispatcher doesn't have enough info, at that remove, to determine whether police might be needed on a call.

ALSO THERMAL: If the low-conflict advance team responds to a call and gathers enough information at the scene to determine that police are needed, that's a failure of the whole advance team system!

---

And yes, I get that there's a risk, from opting to delay the police dispatch. But here's the thing: The whole reason we're trying out low-conflict advance teams is because there's also a huge ******* risk from just blindly dispatching out police on every call. In a lot of communities around the country that risk is, in the words of one famous New Yorker, "too damn high". The whole point of this program, and others like it, is to reduce overall risk by accepting a different set of trade-offs. One that seeks to provide low-conflict, low-force responses whenever that seems like a viable option.

I don't doubt that they'll run into some mishaps. I'm sure that if these programs continue, better, more refined rules for when to dispatch cops, and how to know that it's time to dispatch cops, will be developed. Mistakes will be made, and learned from.

And honestly? I think in the long run it'll probably be better and less risky for these communities all around, if we give these programs a chance, and do what we can to make sure they work. I'm honestly baffled by Thermal's weirdly contrarian approach to this question.

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Old 31st July 2021, 11:05 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
THERMAL: Joe Dispatcher doesn't have enough info, at that remove, to determine whether police might be needed on a call.

ALSO THERMAL: If the low-conflict advance team responds to a call and gathers enough information at the scene to determine that police are needed, that's a failure of the whole advance team system!

---

And yes, I get that there's a risk, from opting to delay the police dispatch. But here's the thing: The whole reason we're trying out low-conflict advance teams is because there's also a huge ******* risk from just blindly dispatching out police on every call. In a lot of communities around the country that risk is, in the words of one famous New Yorker, "too damn high". The whole point of this program, and others like it, is to reduce overall risk by accepting a different set of trade-offs. One that seeks to provide low-conflict, low-force responses whenever that seems like a viable option.

I don't doubt that they'll run into some mishaps. I'm sure that if these programs continue, better, more refined rules for when to dispatch cops, and how to know that it's time to dispatch cops, will be developed. Mistakes will be made, and learned from.

And honestly? I think in the long run it'll probably be better and less risky for these communities all around, if we give these programs a chance, and do what we can to make sure they work. I'm honestly baffled by Thermal's weirdly contrarian approach to this question.
Not to start up this mercifully dying thread which is inexplicably turning into a racial thing, but....

"ALSO THERMAL" above is not remotely my position. Borders on scarecrow territory, tbh.

My "contrarian" position is also...not. I don't care for the idea of sending specialized people out as an advance team...which they also were not (B-HEARD was not sent out in advance of someone else; they were simply the responders). In a crisis situation, say for instance a 911 response, you need to be kind of ready for anything. A social worker is only ready for their particular specialty.

For instance, in the case of a car accident, responders have to be ready to get victims out, stabilize and transport to the ER or Trauma Center. They may have to direct traffic, deal with criminals trying to flee the scene, etc. You really do need to send the Swiss Army Knives out first, then maybe call in for specialized personnel as the field conditions are understood. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of inserting more one-trick ponies nto the process. Keep it simple.

If the big picture is to minimize police response, then I'd ask "why?" They are highly trained and versatile. If the answer is "they are out of control and violent so we are trying to get them on the leash", then THAT is the problem to be addressed head-on, not screw around with stopgaps. There is a reason 911 is typically the domain of the Big Three: fire, medic, and police. Let them make the call to bring in a social worker, as police did with B-HEARD successfully in the pilot program.

Going back to the OP framework, defunding the police is not the solution; it's more a band-aid. Demilitarizing the police and restructure the Unions to serve the public interests, rather than this untouchable paramilitary force they are becoming.

Don't send in a social worker who might well find out Joey Sixpack was wrong or trying to avoid cops. Send a cop in who is not in BDUs first, possibly plainclothes and trained to not kill as a first response.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:04 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
. . . . There is a reason 911 is typically the domain of the Big Three: fire, medic, and police.
Even if there are excellent reasons for the Big Three, that doesn't mean that there isn't a better system. Empirical results of pilot programs and beyond will determine that.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:12 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Even if there are excellent reasons for the Big Three, that doesn't mean that there isn't a better system. Empirical results of pilot programs and beyond will determine that.
True enough. I like to keep in mind that real human casualties may be part of the empirical result determination. Like to avoid a few body bags when foreseeable. Police response to crises are generally one of the very few times I welcome police at all.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:17 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Even if there are excellent reasons for the Big Three, that doesn't mean that there isn't a better system. Empirical results of pilot programs and beyond will determine that.
And “We’ve always done it this way” is a piss poor reason for being resistant to opportunities for improvement. In fact, the failure of “Always doing it this way” is the driving force behind the program being discussed here.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:21 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
And “We’ve always done it this way” is a piss poor reason for being resistant to opportunities for improvement. In fact, the failure of “Always doing it this way” is the driving force behind the program being discussed here.
Your interpretation is the opposite of what I said. I said "there is a reason", not "I dunno, it's just always been this way".

The reason, I would have thought was obvious, is maximum versatility in response to emergencies. A social worker is highly limited in what they can do, unless for instance our middle aged God-tier Ms Salley May has a current MMA championship belt on her CV.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:25 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
True enough. I like to keep in mind that real human casualties may be part of the empirical result determination. Like to avoid a few body bags when foreseeable. Police response to crises are generally one of the very few times I welcome police at all.
The problem we're trying to solve is the unreasonably high incidence of police response causing a crisis and adding body bags to the situation.

And following from that, the problem of communities not trusting or respecting or cooperating with the police because of this history of police malpractice in their community. That breakdown of civil society causes crises, makes crises worse, causes failures to benefit from police when police are actually needed, and so forth.

There's a systemic problem with policing in some communities. Trying a different system is a widely-recognized approach to solving systemic problems.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:27 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your interpretation is the opposite of what I said. I said "there is a reason", not "I dunno, it's just always been this way".

The reason, I would have thought was obvious, is maximum versatility in response to emergencies. A social worker is highly limited in what they can do, unless for instance our middle aged God-tier Ms Salley May has a current MMA championship belt on her CV.
What we're seeing is that police are also highly limited in what they can do, and sometimes what they can do is counter-productive.

Note that the brits absolutely do not send armed law enforcement by default. And they seem to be doing alright.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:34 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What we're seeing is that police are also highly limited in what they can do, and sometimes what they can do is counter-productive.

Note that the brits absolutely do not send armed law enforcement by default. And they seem to be doing alright.
They are. How often you suppose they can expect their suspects to be armed, as opposed to say the United States?

In my beach town, we have regular year round cops with guns and vests and all for all the shooting that doesn't happen. During the busy summer season, we get these Class 2 officers all over the joint who generally have police powers and training but no guns. They wear friendly polo shirts instead of black combat fatigues. I'd kind of prefer that to tossing middle aged grad degree holders into a possible typical public fray.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:37 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem we're trying to solve is the unreasonably high incidence of police response causing a crisis and adding body bags to the situation.

And following from that, the problem of communities not trusting or respecting or cooperating with the police because of this history of police malpractice in their community. That breakdown of civil society causes crises, makes crises worse, causes failures to benefit from police when police are actually needed, and so forth.

There's a systemic problem with policing in some communities. Trying a different system is a widely-recognized approach to solving systemic problems.
Yes. So address the problem directly. You thinking Salley strolling out makes people fond of the police more? I don't see that.

Police bad? Fix police.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:45 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your interpretation is the opposite of what I said. I said "there is a reason", not "I dunno, it's just always been this way".

The reason, I would have thought was obvious, is maximum versatility in response to emergencies. A social worker is highly limited in what they can do, unless for instance our middle aged God-tier Ms Salley May has a current MMA championship belt on her CV.
No it is not opposite. The reasons you offer are now being viewed as less than suitable. Reasons are subject to change and change is being attempted. You seem strangely resistant to this.

Your maximum versatility seems closely connected to the availability and potential use of a lethal weapon. Those in possession of such weapons are also highly limited in what they can do. You may note that no member of any police department has a current MMA championship belt so “Ms Salley May” and the US police are on exactly equal footing in that regard. Your hyperbole is certainly not scoring any points here and actually come across as quite ridiculous.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:47 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. So address the problem directly. You thinking Salley strolling out makes people fond of the police more? I don't see that.

Police bad? Fix police.
There are many many things you don’t see regarding this topic.

ETA there is an attempt being made here to “fix police” by changing their role regarding mental health issues. If if is successful, as initial assessments seem to indicate it may be, you will get your wish and the police will be “fixed” to some degree.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:55 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No it is not opposite. The reasons you offer are now being viewed as less than suitable. Reasons are subject to change and change is being attempted. You seem strangely resistant to this.

Your maximum versatility seems closely connected to the availability and potential use of a lethal weapon. Those in possession of such weapons are also highly limited in what they can do. You may note that no member of any police department has a current MMA championship belt so “Ms Salley May” and the US police are on exactly equal footing in that regard.
Police are well trained in combat and compliance holds, in addition to a variety of tools such as tazers, pepper spray, batons, etc before you even get to a gun. Ms May has none of the above, so she would need extensive unarmed combat experience from outside the program. Hence, MMA prowess as a comparative equalizer.

Quote:
Your hyperbole is certainly not scoring any points here and actually come across as quite ridiculous.
Think hard about the difference I laid out above. Not so hyperbolic as it seemed at first blush, is it? Plus I like colorful language in expression. Some prefer bland and dry. Chocolate and vanilla I suppose.

Eta: hey. Why'd you put "Ms Salley May" in scare quotes like that? She has been our running example of a B-HEARD responder. "Ms" is a respectful title for a woman, assuming she identifies as such. Are you accusing me of gender assignment or something? Harsh.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:59 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There are many many things you don’t see regarding this topic.

ETA there is an attempt being made here to “fix police” by changing their role regarding mental health issues. If if is successful, as initial assessments seem to indicate it may be, you will get your wish and the police will be “fixed” to some degree.
Disagreed. The police are untouched. This program tries to shield potential victims of bad policing. Which again, is great, but how about deal with the actual problem?

I mentioned class 2 cops above. Polo shirts and no guns. I wouldn't mind that nearly as much as middle aged academic acheivers.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:13 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Police are well trained in combat and compliance holds, in addition to a variety of tools such as tazers, pepper spray, batons, etc before you even get to a gun. Ms May has none of the above, so she would need extensive unarmed combat experience from outside the program. Hence, MMA prowess as a comparative equalizer.



Think hard about the difference I laid out above. Not so hyperbolic as it seemed at first blush, is it? Plus I like colorful language in expression. Some prefer bland and dry. Chocolate and vanilla I suppose.
No need to “think hard”. The simple words you choose have simple meanings. As I said your “colourful” language comes across as ridiculous rather than reasoned. It’s use does not lead to convincing arguments.

There is more than ample evidence that guns are the first weapon of choice for most US cops. Their fear for their own personal safety has been well documented in myriad threads on these forums. They are trained to not allow a potentially violent person to get close enough to their precious bodies to utilize batons, pepper spray, or physical restraint. Such weapons are provided primarily for the purpose of attacking unarmed and non violent protestors.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:21 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. The police are untouched. This program tries to shield potential victims of bad policing. Which again, is great, but how about deal with the actual problem?

I mentioned class 2 cops above. Polo shirts and no guns. I wouldn't mind that nearly as much as middle aged academic acheivers.
The police are removed from the response team. Cannot see how you view that as untouched. The actual recognized problem is bad policing. Removing this is the main objective of the program.

Polo shirts, no guns, plus mental health support worker level training I could agree with. This would of course require completely removing the presence of uniformed beat/patrol car level cops.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:26 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No need to “think hard”. The simple words you choose have simple meanings. As I said your “colourful” language comes across as ridiculous rather than reasoned. It’s use does not lead to convincing arguments.
/minor hijack/: Totally a matter of opinion. One can joke while making a perfectly serious and valid point. A dry person will find themselves too distracted by the imagery and lecture others on the argument being unconvincing due to it. More casual people sort it with no problem or need for comment.

Quote:
There is more than ample evidence that guns are the first weapon of choice for most US cops. Their fear for their own personal safety has been well documented in myriad threads on these forums. They are trained to not allow a potentially violent person to get close enough to their precious bodies to utilize batons, pepper spray, or physical restraint. Such weapons are provided primarily for the purpose of attacking unarmed and non violent protestors.
*summoning all the technical manual writer's mode of delivery at my disposal*

Yes. That indicates a problem with police training and attitudes. Those problems should be addressed directly, rather than merely seeking to reduce one class of victims from their brutality.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:39 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
/minor hijack/: Totally a matter of opinion. One can joke while making a perfectly serious and valid point. A dry person will find themselves too distracted by the imagery and lecture others on the argument being unconvincing due to it. More casual people sort it with no problem or need for comment.



*summoning all the technical manual writer's mode of delivery at my disposal*

Yes. That indicates a problem with police training and attitudes. Those problems should be addressed directly, rather than merely seeking to reduce one class of victims from their brutality.
The problems could be addressed in tandem.

Of course the problem that resulted in this pilot program is entirely one of police training and attitudes. the USA seems to have particular difficulty in changing the training and attitude of their police. Much talk about change but no evidence of any action so far. So an alternate method of addressing the safety of a particular class of victim that removes poor police training and attitudes from the equation and the saves the lives of even a small number of people is better than the status quo.

Seems like you are trying to make my case for me.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:45 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The police are removed from the response team. Cannot see how you view that as untouched. The actual recognized problem is bad policing. Removing this is the main objective of the program.
Problem : cops bad and violent
Solution 1: shield a small set of victims from them. Sometimes anyway, under restricted calling conditions. Assign millions of dollars to this end. Cops remain free to commit violence on others.
Solution 2: fix the goddamed cops.

Quote:
Polo shirts, no guns, plus mental health support worker level training I could agree with. This would of course require completely removing the presence of uniformed beat/patrol car level cops.
Meeeeeeehhhh. I dunno. I think they should be heavily restricted in when they interact with the public, but not be removed from it. Having a Hammer handy is not a bad thing, even if you don't use it often. When you need it, you need it.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:50 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The problems could be addressed in tandem.

Of course the problem that resulted in this pilot program is entirely one of police training and attitudes. the USA seems to have particular difficulty in changing the training and attitude of their police. Much talk about change but no evidence of any action so far. So an alternate method of addressing the safety of a particular class of victim that removes poor police training and attitudes from the equation and the saves the lives of even a small number of people is better than the status quo.

Seems like you are trying to make my case for me.
Ok, or...and hear me out now...teach cops how to provide help without killing mother *******.

Police looooooooove to talk about how they respond as they were trained to respond, which I think of as the Poodle Protocol. They claim to be naught but dancing dogs doing what they were taught. So if the ******* are so easy to train, and perform said training impeccably, train the ******* not to kill people.

Apologies if that is hyperbolic or colorful or whatever.
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Old 31st July 2021, 01:54 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
How is that any different than the dispatcher deciding to send police/fire/emt/animal control? I saw EMTs responding to a homeless guy on the sidewalk where I work, who was either dead or unconscious on the sidewalk*, no police presence. Obviously someone made the call, and someone decided it was OK to send EMTs without police backup. NYC is just adding one more tool to emergency services.

*I work in a "lovely" area just north of downtown ABQ where the homeless camp under I-40 and at a dog park.
I would think the police were needed as someone who is
Quote:
either dead or unconscious on the sidewalk
may very well have been a victim. EMS could spoil the crime scene.
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Old 31st July 2021, 02:15 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, or...and hear me out now...teach cops how to provide help without killing mother *******.

Police looooooooove to talk about how they respond as they were trained to respond, which I think of as the Poodle Protocol. They claim to be naught but dancing dogs doing what they were taught. So if the ******* are so easy to train, and perform said training impeccably, train the ******* not to kill people.

Apologies if that is hyperbolic or colorful or whatever.
If we cannot fix the whole problem at once then we should not try to fix any part of it. I don’t buy this. Sometimes even interim measures can have some success as the program under discussion initially seems to be.
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Old 31st July 2021, 02:43 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
If we cannot fix the whole problem at once then we should not try to fix any part of it. I don’t buy this. Sometimes even interim measures can have some success as the program under discussion initially seems to be.
Wait...you mean there is some kind of overhaul of police training and accountability afoot? Outstanding! Could you perhaps link me to it cuz I missed the story. I thought we were wringing our hands and trying to shelter select individuals and backslap each other while the cops continue unabated
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Old 31st July 2021, 03:07 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wait...you mean there is some kind of overhaul of police training and accountability afoot? Outstanding! Could you perhaps link me to it cuz I missed the story. I thought we were wringing our hands and trying to shelter select individuals and backslap each other while the cops continue unabated
No, I do not mean that. Nor did I say that.

There is no possibility of some kind of overhaul of police training and accountability in the USA. The blanket retraining of police rather starting smaller alternate programs that will help smaller segments of the population was your idea. Recall writing this?:

"Ok, or...and hear me out now...teach cops how to provide help without killing mother *******.
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Old 31st July 2021, 03:33 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No, I do not mean that. Nor did I say that.

There is no possibility of some kind of overhaul of police training and accountability in the USA. The blanket retraining of police rather starting smaller alternate programs that will help smaller segments of the population was your idea. Recall writing this?:

"Ok, or...and hear me out now...teach cops how to provide help without killing mother *******.
There is some part of that sage and sanguine suggestion that is prohibitive from widespread application? I didn't mean to teach them one at a time as you find them actively killing mother ******* on the street.
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Old 31st July 2021, 06:50 PM   #195
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The problem of policy brutality is definitely enormous and it's nationwide, and it's front and center in the public consciousness at the moment too; so of course you will hear it brought up when programs like this are talked about - it's the most self-evident risk that's avoided by not involving police. But, it's not the only one; I don't think it's even really the biggest issue, with respect to this program. Notice that the program's own materials and people who are part of it that have been interview for news agencies, don't seem to have even mentioned the potential for police abuse or misconduct as one of the rationales behind creating it.

The real problem is that police are police. The presence of a police officer on a call, all by itself, is an escalation. It raises the stakes of the situation in a very substantial way that is impossible for anyone present to ignore: if you're upset, you might get pushy, yell at people, or even simply say some belligerent things, but if you do any of that stuff in the presence of a police officer, suddenly you can get physically roughed and/or arrested, and put in jail. That's an important slice of the cake.

A bigger, Garfield-sized slice is that public trust in police is....low, y'know? Very low. It would not surprise me to learn that trust in police is lower than it's ever been. The recent, increasingly more common exposure of the kinds of misconduct mentioned earlier are partly to blame for that, but that's not all of it. The fact is, police lie, and everyone knows it. They are legally allowed to lie in the service of investigating a crime, or in order to effect an arrest. In several ways, too - by pretending not to be police, by obfuscating the reasons for their interest in someone, by offering or promising to do something they have no intention of doing (or, conversely, promising not to do something they fully intend to do), by talking down suspects with offers of "help" and then just bodyslamming and cuffing them and tossing them in jail without any follow-up. "Everyone" includes people with mental illnesses or drug addictions; ofttimes they've had previous encounters with police and experienced this legal dishonesty firsthand, and the ones that haven't - well, they're still aware that it happens for the reason the rest of society is aware.

The consequence of all this mistrust is heightened anxiety, which is the last thing a person having a mental or behavioral crisis needs. Purely by being there at all, the police officer raises the likelihood that someone who is decompensating will become agitated, or that someone who is agitated will become violent (and, ironically, create a reason for the cop to be there that didn't exist until the cop showed up). It will make some people refuse assistance they would have accepted if it wasn't a cop trying to convince them to take it.

And just Clark-Kenting the responding cops by putting them in plain-clothes and hiding their weapons is not the solution to this problem, because people being mentally ill doesn't mean they're feeble-minded idiots.
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Old 1st August 2021, 12:19 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I wonder, if this becomes more commonplace, whether we will see that our neighborhoods aren't as dangerous as we have been told they are.
That's crazy talk. Next you'll be thinking the Wars on Drugs and Crime were pointless.
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Old 1st August 2021, 12:21 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm coming in a bit late to this discussion, and granted that it may work differently in America than what I know, but doesn't the 911 operator make that decision? Joey Sixpack just rings 911. The operator decides whether to send police or the crisis unit. And they do so on the basis of their training.

Am I way off base here?
Also not USAian but that's how it works here. The caller can be referred to advice services (suicide, medical et cetera) or emergency services can be called; there are many outcomes. A friend of mine is one of the 999 supervisors.
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Old 1st August 2021, 12:24 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Their training is largely to assess the intel given to them by Joey.
That may be true in the USA,it's not elsewhere where operators have significant amounts of training, including test scenarios, before they're let handle live calls under direct supervision.

In fact I know it's not how some parts of the USA work because I knew someone who handled such training scenarios and the IT systems to manage them.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'd say we should let this thread die. Even if no one on the B-HEARD team gets hurt in 40 years, has nothing but complete statistical success in every form, it's pretty much down to "but what if". That's the #1 way of knowing this is over. Thermal is asking everyone to prove a negative.

I read this thread as "here's a ton of evidence that this program will work, there has been decades of evidence of this program working in other places, and the short data we have here is that it's working as well" to a rebuttal of "but what if it doesn't work? huh? What about that?" The evidence of which is nothing more than anecdotal stories and projection.

/thread
Agreed.
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Old 1st August 2021, 05:10 PM   #199
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Wasn't the whole point of this to keep cops out of the picture as much as possible because they often make situations worse, even killing the person requesting the help?

According to what I've read in the last few pages, the tables have turned and now it is feared that the person answering the call may be injured rather than the person requesting help. Even if true, that alone is a step in the right direction.

Sounds like a good idea that could be made even better as time goes on and more data is gathered.
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Old 1st August 2021, 08:06 PM   #200
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I'm wondering what part of "it's working" is hard to grasp.
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