IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

Reply
Old 29th July 2021, 12:32 PM   #2281
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You understand that this killing occurred in January, 2014? Sure, legal process takes time. But in a matter where the basic facts are not in dispute, eight years -- even one year -- is too long. There's no question about what he did, only about whether he was justified under Florida law. By comparison, George Zimmerman was tried about 18 months after he killed Trayvon Martin.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/forme...-february-2022

Something stinks.
To be fair, the delayed trial was set to have begun by now, but covid mucked everything up.

This case is a series of unfortunate technicalities. There's haggling over an unusual problem of how the relevant law has changed in the interim and whether to apply the new vs old standards, and once that seemed like it was coming to a close, covid hit and shut everything down.

A case that would have already been delayed far too long is now being delayed further to the point that the accused may very well escape all meaningful punishment should he be convicted.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2021, 12:47 PM   #2282
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be fair, the delayed trial was set to have begun by now, but covid mucked everything up.

This case is a series of unfortunate technicalities. There's haggling over an unusual problem of how the relevant law has changed in the interim and whether to apply the new vs old standards, and once that seemed like it was coming to a close, covid hit and shut everything down.

A case that would have already been delayed far too long is now being delayed further to the point that the accused may very well escape all meaningful punishment should he be convicted.
They couldn't figure that out in 5+ years?

Sounds like a mixture of incompetence and catering to the killer if you ask me.

Make no mistake, this guy has never denied he shot the guy. He's admitted to it, there's a recording of it, and the only thing that's really left to decide is if it is a stand your ground case. Apparently if someone throws popcorn at you in Florida, you might be entitled to go out to your car, come back in and shoot them to death...because 'Murica.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2021, 01:38 PM   #2283
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They couldn't figure that out in 5+ years?

Sounds like a mixture of incompetence and catering to the killer if you ask me.

Make no mistake, this guy has never denied he shot the guy. He's admitted to it, there's a recording of it, and the only thing that's really left to decide is if it is a stand your ground case. Apparently if someone throws popcorn at you in Florida, you might be entitled to go out to your car, come back in and shoot them to death...because 'Murica.
It does seem ironic, given that I think the prosecutors could probably easily make the case with either "stand your ground" standard, but can't proceed until this technical issue is settled.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2021, 04:38 PM   #2284
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, there is an actual reason for him not to go to prison. A really ******* obvious reason, actually.
Actually, there isn't, he's on bail for a violent crime, and a lot of violent offenders don't get to get out of jail so that their legal team can fluff about for 7 years keeping them out of there. Do you think that his lawyers might hurry up and want a trial is his bail was revoked?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2021, 05:06 PM   #2285
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,023
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Setting the conditions for the trial is part of due process. You can't just skip to the trial because you're tired of one party dragging their feet by every means possible. If there is a legitimate way for the judge to order the defense to stop delaying and come to court, the prosecution is welcome to file a motion to that effect, and the judge is welcome to uphold the motion and rule accordingly.

I can't think of any other remedy that doesn't amount to disregarding the system when it doesn't do what I think it should. I think it is often appropriate - sometimes necessary! - for private individuals to disregard the system. I think it is almost never appropriate for the state to do so. And certainly not in matters such as this.
The lawful neutral take the thread needed.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 11:41 AM   #2286
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
He deserves a fair trial, sure... but I have a sneaking suspicion that he's been allowed to sit at home for years awaiting trial because of his former position.
Then your problem is the prosecutor and/or the judge, not the defendant. The defense has done nothing wrong here. They've used due process to their advantage, which is exactly what they're supposed to do. It's not their job to speed things up when the prosecutor is slow-playing the case, and the judge is willing to let the case be slow-played. Indeed, if the prosecution's reluctance to go to trial benefits the defendant, then he quite properly should go along with it as long as it lasts.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 11:42 AM   #2287
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You understand that this killing occurred in January, 2014? Sure, legal process takes time. But in a matter where the basic facts are not in dispute, eight years -- even one year -- is too long. There's no question about what he did, only about whether he was justified under Florida law. By comparison, George Zimmerman was tried about 18 months after he killed Trayvon Martin.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/forme...-february-2022

Something stinks.
I agree that something stinks. I just don't agree it's the defense that's creating the smell.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 11:51 AM   #2288
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The lawful neutral take the thread needed.
Lawful good. My argument is premised on the axiom that the best way to help the most people is to uphold society's laws, even if that means sometimes some people don't get the help we think they should have.

Lawful neutral would be the belief that helping or harming others, it's all good as long as it's done according to the rules.

More completely, my alignment tends towards neutral good. While I generally believe we're all better off when we don't undermine the laws and customs of our society, I do recognize that sometimes the best way to help people is to set those rules aside and do what needs doing for the good of others.

On the other hand, I think that civil disobedience comes with a moral responsibility to accept society's consequences. The Letter from Birmingham Jail has a moral weight to it, that it would not have if it had been written while King was fleeing from justice for the crimes he committed.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 12:24 PM   #2289
lobosrul5
Master Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,392
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then your problem is the prosecutor and/or the judge, not the defendant. The defense has done nothing wrong here. They've used due process to their advantage, which is exactly what they're supposed to do. It's not their job to speed things up when the prosecutor is slow-playing the case, and the judge is willing to let the case be slow-played. Indeed, if the prosecution's reluctance to go to trial benefits the defendant, then he quite properly should go along with it as long as it lasts.
Err, well yeah. I never said otherwise. We have an adversarial justice system. The defense is supposed to do what they can to help their client, not the justice system and prosecution. Reminds me a bit of the Cosby case, the defense did nothing wrong, the prosecution ****** up royally.

Quote:
I agree that something stinks. I just don't agree it's the defense that's creating the smell.
Yeah there we are in agreement. A former LEO gets to sit at home for 7.5 years (6 of them before covid)? I can't say I've ever heard of anyone ever getting to do that for such a serious charge.

ETA: a solution would be for a higher authority (state attorney general?) to dismiss the judge and prosecutor for not adequately pursuing the case.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 30th July 2021 at 12:28 PM.
lobosrul5 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 02:03 PM   #2290
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 13,936
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
....
ETA: a solution would be for a higher authority (state attorney general?) to dismiss the judge and prosecutor for not adequately pursuing the case.
I don't know specifically about Florida, but in general state prosecutors and judges are independent authorities. Often they are elected, and if not they are appointed by governors for specific terms. There are usually disciplinary procedures for serious misconduct, but they can't be casually fired. They don't work for the attorney general, who him/herself is elected.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 02:45 PM   #2291
lobosrul5
Master Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,392
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't know specifically about Florida, but in general state prosecutors and judges are independent authorities. Often they are elected, and if not they are appointed by governors for specific terms. There are usually disciplinary procedures for serious misconduct, but they can't be casually fired. They don't work for the attorney general, who him/herself is elected.
I meant dismissed from that case and reassigned, not fired.
lobosrul5 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 04:23 PM   #2292
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually, there isn't, he's on bail for a violent crime, and a lot of violent offenders don't get to get out of jail so that their legal team can fluff about for 7 years keeping them out of there. Do you think that his lawyers might hurry up and want a trial is his bail was revoked?
You're confusing pre-trial detention with an actual prison sentence. Also I don't see any compelling reason why he shouldn't be given bail. Unless your goal is to try to get in some prison time for him, pre-trial. Is that your goal?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 06:06 PM   #2293
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're confusing pre-trial detention with an actual prison sentence.
Did I stammer in my post? I didn't say anything about sentencing, I said that you were wrong about there being no reason to have him in prison.

Quote:
Also I don't see any compelling reason why he shouldn't be given bail. Unless your goal is to try to get in some prison time for him, pre-trial. Is that your goal?
Well, there is the whole shooting someone in a theatre thing, seems like he's a potential danger to society to me. As I noted originally, a lot of violent offenders don't get a bail option.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 30th July 2021 at 06:07 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2021, 07:15 PM   #2294
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Did I stammer in my post? I didn't say anything about sentencing, I said that you were wrong about there being no reason to have him in prison.



Well, there is the whole shooting someone in a theatre thing, seems like he's a potential danger to society to me. As I noted originally, a lot of violent offenders don't get a bail option.
And a lot of violent offenders do get a bail option.

Also, a prison term is the outcome of sentencing in a criminal trial. The obvious ******* reason why he should not be in prison is that there hasn't even been a trial.

And I bet you agree.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 06:13 AM   #2295
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And a lot of violent offenders do get a bail option.

Also, a prison term is the outcome of sentencing in a criminal trial. The obvious ******* reason why he should not be in prison is that there hasn't even been a trial.

And I bet you agree.
Because everyone has to agree, it's a "no ****" statement. I think the only point everyone else here has agreed to as well is that this guy appears to be getting special treatment. He shot and killed someone over the pettiest of reasons, admitted to it, and still gets to go on with his day to day. I bet they even let him leave his house for walks and exercise. He's living an absolutely normal life for 7 years after killing someone. That's insane. I get you don't seem to be bothered by it at all, because that's how the system works. The system also works the exact opposite direction, a disproportionate amount of time when PoC are involved. It sucks, he should face his trial, and go to prison where he can slowly wither and die like everyone else who kills for no reason.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 08:08 AM   #2296
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Because everyone has to agree, it's a "no ****" statement. I think the only point everyone else here has agreed to as well is that this guy appears to be getting special treatment. He shot and killed someone over the pettiest of reasons, admitted to it, and still gets to go on with his day to day. I bet they even let him leave his house for walks and exercise. He's living an absolutely normal life for 7 years after killing someone. That's insane.
How is it insane? People get to go on with their lives after killing someone all the time. The only reason he should not be allowed to go on with his life is if his killing meets certain specific conditions. It's the state's responsibility to show those conditions are met. So far, they have not done so. I just want to be clear: The state's inability or unwillingness to move the case forward is not his fault.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 10:06 AM   #2297
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is it insane? People get to go on with their lives after killing someone all the time.
For 7+ years? That happens pretty regular, eh? You don't think that's insane? You think that's just dandy, eh? Just because it happens, doesn't mean it doesn't piss people off. The fact you seem all ho-hum about it is par for the course though.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The only reason he should not be allowed to go on with his life is if his killing meets certain specific conditions. It's the state's responsibility to show those conditions are met. So far, they have not done so. I just want to be clear: The state's inability or unwillingness to move the case forward is not his fault.
Ok, so you're just super adamant about who gets blamed? Like this guy isn't doing everything in his power to stay out?

He's gaming the system. We both know that, we both know he isn't trying to push this forward. Even with the pandemic there are thousands, if not millions of cases going through the judicial system. Also, whomever you want to blame hadn't done anything about it for the 5 years we didn't have a pandemic.

I don't give a flying rats **** who you want to blame. My point is it sucks, it should be changed, and I think it's a slap in the face to the dead man's family that this miserable **** gets to sit around doing his normal **** for over 7 years with barely any penalty at all.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 10:15 AM   #2298
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 15,733
Seriously. The actions of a few minutes are given a full year for a painstaking discovery to afford every preparation for a fair defense. The procedural questions (which version of law to charge him under etc) are a thirty day motion and review for the presiding judge to rule on during that time. The bulk of the rest of the case, as the killer does not substantially contest the facts, could be whipped together at lunch before the trial. This **** does not take years. It takes minutes, with the time added on for everyone to get around to it on their respective schedules.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 10:18 AM   #2299
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They couldn't figure that out in 5+ years?

Sounds like a mixture of incompetence and catering to the killer if you ask me.

Make no mistake, this guy has never denied he shot the guy. He's admitted to it, there's a recording of it, and the only thing that's really left to decide is if it is a stand your ground case. Apparently if someone throws popcorn at you in Florida, you might be entitled to go out to your car, come back in and shoot them to death...because 'Murica.
I agree, at some point settling the procedural matter should have become among the highest priorities of the court. Allowing a murder case to sit in limbo for so long is on its face an injustice.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 10:30 AM   #2300
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 13,936
Interestingly, the Florida courts have placed the entire record online.
http://www.curtisreevestrial.com/
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 08:33 PM   #2301
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,731
I wonder if he'll get those 5-7 years as time served if he's found guilty.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 08:39 PM   #2302
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,731
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Interestingly, the Florida courts have placed the entire record online.
http://www.curtisreevestrial.com/

Thanks!

Here is one motion to change conditions of his house arrest.

1- Asking to be able to move freely between 3 counties
2- Request removal of GPS monitor
3- Wants his son (a cop) to get possession of his firearms so he doesn't have to pay to store them

http://www.curtisreevestrial.com/files/1107.pdf

Found that one right away. I'm no lawyer.

it was denied.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 06:46 AM   #2303
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
For 7+ years? That happens pretty regular, eh? You don't think that's insane? You think that's just dandy, eh? Just because it happens, doesn't mean it doesn't piss people off. The fact you seem all ho-hum about it is par for the course though.
I can be pissed off about this particular situation without agreeing with your reasons why.

And yes, some people go on with their lives after killing someone, for 7+ years. If the killing is judged to be self defense, for example. Or misadventure. Etc. It's up to the state to take that away from someone, and the state has strict requirements it has to meet beforehand.

Quote:
Ok, so you're just super adamant about who gets blamed? Like this guy isn't doing everything in his power to stay out?
Of course the guy is doing everything he can to stay out. That's pretty much his job in all of this.

And of course he's not actually doing everything he can. He hasn't jumped bail, for example. He's doing everything he legally can. And apparently not even that. Mostly what he seems to be doing is waiting for the state to do its job.

Quote:
He's gaming the system.
No he is not. He is defending himself and his life against the state, exactly as the system prescribes, exactly according to the rules the system has laid out.

Quote:
We both know that, we both know he isn't trying to push this forward. Even with the pandemic there are thousands, if not millions of cases going through the judicial system. Also, whomever you want to blame hadn't done anything about it for the 5 years we didn't have a pandemic.
It's not his job to push this forward. Your anger about the current situation is misplaced.

Quote:
I don't give a flying rats **** who you want to blame. My point is it sucks, it should be changed, and I think it's a slap in the face to the dead man's family that this miserable **** gets to sit around doing his normal **** for over 7 years with barely any penalty at all.
I think it matters very much who we blame, in situations like this. I think that when it comes to crime and punishment, who the state imprisons and who the state sets free, it's very important to be clear about who's responsible for what.

You want this man convicted of murder and imprisoned. You are blaming him for not putting in more effort to make this happen. The first is reasonable. The second is not. The second is dangerous. Stop conflating reasonable and unreasonable things, and we'll have nothing left to disagree about.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 07:07 AM   #2304
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it matters very much who we blame, in situations like this. I think that when it comes to crime and punishment, who the state imprisons and who the state sets free, it's very important to be clear about who's responsible for what.

You want this man convicted of murder and imprisoned. You are blaming him for not putting in more effort to make this happen. The first is reasonable. The second is not. The second is dangerous. Stop conflating reasonable and unreasonable things, and we'll have nothing left to disagree about.
This is stupid, I seriously give a **** who is to blame. That's important to you, I don't really care. My issue is that it's taken this long at all. I've repeatedly acknowledged that it appears both sides, defense and prosecution, are giving him a ludicrous amount of leniency. I'm not sure why, and it's irritating. If you want to go back and forth about how is to blame, then knock yourself out. It's way more important to you, and your repeated demands that everyone care about it as much as you do is dumb. I'm done participating in it.

If it's so ******* common, go out and find me a few cases, lets say 3, of someone shooting and killing another human, and the killer sits without trial for 7 years. Your nonsense about self defense, etc. is irrelevant because in that case the state wouldn't be pursuing charges. In this case the state is pursuing charges.

So...find me a case, anywhere in the US, where a man shot and killed someone, on video, with witnesses, admitted to it, stated openly he did it, and had no trial for over 7 years. Not even a plea bargain. Just nothing more than some procedural motions. If you can't find any, then admit something is off about this case.

ETA: Also, it's dangerous? Clutch your pearls harder. Just because I believe something doesn't mean that's how it works. I'm expressing an opinion. I'm in no control over anything, if I was his ass would have had his trial already and would be sitting in prison wishing he'd kept is gun in its holster.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 3rd August 2021 at 07:10 AM.
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 09:34 AM   #2305
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 864
It was 5 years between the arrest of Robert Durst for the murder of Susan Berman and the start of his trial - which is still going on 1.5 years later because of Covid.

Here is another case:
"Justice Delayed: 10 Years in Jail, but Still Awaiting Trial"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/u...is-speedy.html
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 10:27 AM   #2306
lobosrul5
Master Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,392
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
It was 5 years between the arrest of Robert Durst for the murder of Susan Berman and the start of his trial - which is still going on 1.5 years later because of Covid.

Here is another case:
"Justice Delayed: 10 Years in Jail, but Still Awaiting Trial"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/u...is-speedy.html
There's a rather large difference between this trial and the linked case. The accused has been sitting in jail the entire time.

ETA: it appears Durst has been in custody for years as well.

Its unfair to the accused to have to sit in jail for multiple years awaiting trial. Its also unfair to the victim and their families for the accused to sit at home for years awaiting trial.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 3rd August 2021 at 10:54 AM.
lobosrul5 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:01 AM   #2307
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
It was 5 years between the arrest of Robert Durst for the murder of Susan Berman and the start of his trial - which is still going on 1.5 years later because of Covid.
Ok, still not 7, but at least there's something. Did Durst admit to killing Susan Berman? Was there video footage of him killing her? I don't really see how these two cases are the same, but it was about as close as you could have gotten. So I'll give you props for that.

Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Here is another case:
"Justice Delayed: 10 Years in Jail, but Still Awaiting Trial"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/u...is-speedy.html
I'm not sure if this was your goal, but, again, you're making my point for me. The article you're linking to specifically says:

Quote:
Mr. Davis’s case has suffered from misplaced evidence, conflicts of interest, and restrictions on his ability to review his own legal documents in jail, according to interviews and a review of his case file.
None, nada, 0% of that applies in this threads' case. Also, as mentioned, Kharon is in prison. He's not sitting at home enjoying the sun. The judge has, in fact, warned Kharon that his actions are prolonging his case, and possibly his time behind bars.

So the best we could find were 2 cases, not really close to the same as the one for this thread, where people ended up getting their trial delayed. Even if we accept both of them, I asked for 3. Can we now admit that what is happening is definitely odd, out of the norm, possibly catering to the criminal?
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 3rd August 2021 at 11:03 AM.
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:41 AM   #2308
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This is stupid, I seriously give a **** who is to blame. That's important to you, I don't really care.
I'm saying you should care. I'm saying your system is failing you, and it should be very important to you to understand where and how it's failing, and not just thoughtlessly spam blame everywhere.

Quote:
My issue is that it's taken this long at all. I've repeatedly acknowledged that it appears both sides, defense and prosecution, are giving him a ludicrous amount of leniency.
By design, it's impossible for the defense to give him ludicrous amounts of leniency. Their whole job is to do everything they legally can to give him the best outcome they can think of. It is absolutely not their job to help the prosecution do their job. You seem to have very bizarre and even dangerous ideas of why defense counsel is such an important part of our justice system, and what their role actually is.

Quote:
I'm not sure why, and it's irritating. If you want to go back and forth about how is to blame, then knock yourself out. It's way more important to you, and your repeated demands that everyone care about it as much as you do is dumb. I'm done participating in it.
You can't fix the system if you don't understand the system and you don't know where the system is actually broken. Blaming the defendant for not bringing the case swiftly to trial against their own interests is a horrible idea.

Quote:
ETA: Also, it's dangerous? Clutch your pearls harder. Just because I believe something doesn't mean that's how it works. I'm expressing an opinion. I'm in no control over anything, if I was his ass would have had his trial already and would be sitting in prison wishing he'd kept is gun in its holster.
Your opinion is a dangerous opinion. It's important to rebut dangerous opinions before they become so widespread that they affect public policy. The last thing I want is for lots of people to sincerely believe that anyone defending themselves against criminal charges is obligated to act against their own best interests in that defense.

Also, letting your emotion cloud your judgement is just a bad thing in general.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:44 AM   #2309
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Its also unfair to the victim and their families for the accused to sit at home for years awaiting trial.
How is that unfair? The victim and their families are not entitled to preemptively punish the accused just because the state decided to accuse them.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:50 AM   #2310
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Also, as mentioned, Kharon is in prison. He's not sitting at home enjoying the sun. The judge has, in fact, warned Kharon that his actions are prolonging his case, and possibly his time behind bars.
The thing is, he should be sitting at home enjoying the sun. He hasn't been tried yet. He hasn't been convicted. It would be absolutely wrong and unjust to try to get a head start on punishing him. What the judge is doing is basically extortion. If it were up to me, he'd be disbarred.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 12:13 PM   #2311
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm saying you should care. I'm saying your system is failing you, and it should be very important to you to understand where and how it's failing, and not just thoughtlessly spam blame everywhere.
I know it's failing, like I said he should be in prison and he's not. I'm not sure how I would be able to change that, but if you have any ideas I'm open to hear them.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
By design, it's impossible for the defense to give him ludicrous amounts of leniency.
Jesus Christ, you know exactly what I meant. I've already said they're doing their jobs, I just don't like how it's being gone about. But yes, awesome point. Thank you for your correction. I forgot the "take every post and action in a vacuum" law here.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Their whole job is to do everything they legally can to give him the best outcome they can think of. It is absolutely not their job to help the prosecution do their job. You seem to have very bizarre and even dangerous ideas of why defense counsel is such an important part of our justice system, and what their role actually is.
I have made it clear time and again that, while what the defense is doing is their job, I don't have to like it. I apologize I misspoke. Dangerous? Jesus Christ, it's an obscure forum in an all but forgotten corner of the internet where I'm expressing disdain for this specific court case. The hyperbole is nonsensical and pathetic. Stop.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You can't fix the system if you don't understand the system and you don't know where the system is actually broken. Blaming the defendant for not bringing the case swiftly to trial against their own interests is a horrible idea.
Dood, I'm not blaming the God damn defendant. Can you ******* stop with that now? I've corrected myself repeatedly. Just stop. This is getting stupid.

The only thing that ******* did was shoot someone to death for no reason other than he got hit with some God damn popcorn. I understand the system pretty well, having been through it repeatedly. Chastise someone else. I'm busy being dangerous to the legal system over here. I don't have time for you to talk down to me.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your opinion is a dangerous opinion.
Totally dangerous.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's important to rebut dangerous opinions before they become so widespread that they affect public policy. The last thing I want is for lots of people to sincerely believe that anyone defending themselves against criminal charges is obligated to act against their own best interests in that defense.

Also, letting your emotion cloud your judgement is just a bad thing in general.
Yes, thank God for you theprestige. You're keeping the internet, nay, the world safe from dangerous people like me by consistently strawmanning my argument. I can't imagine where we'd be without your constant knuckle slapping to keep us in check. Who knows where this world would be without you.

Again, any other cases like this that you can find? No? Then save your gloom and doom nonsense for someone that cares. This is obviously an outlier and a problem with the system.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The thing is, he should be sitting at home enjoying the sun. He hasn't been tried yet. He hasn't been convicted. It would be absolutely wrong and unjust to try to get a head start on punishing him. What the judge is doing is basically extortion. If it were up to me, he'd be disbarred.
yOuR oPinIOnz aRE dAngERouS
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 3rd August 2021 at 12:17 PM.
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 12:26 PM   #2312
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,589
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I've already said they're doing their jobs, I just don't like how it's being gone about.
Why don't you like it when the defense does their job?

I assume you think it's a necessary job. I assume you think it's important to our system of justice that the job get done. So why dislike it when an important and necessary job is getting done by the people that are supposed to do it.

I can understand disliking the fact that the judge and the prosecutor aren't doing their job. I don't understand why you keep lumping the defense in with them, since the defense has done nothing wrong.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 01:02 PM   #2313
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,006
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why don't you like it when the defense does their job?
I'm not getting baited into more ******** questions.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume you think it's a necessary job.
It can be when it's done right. You should look up all the cases where the appointed defense counsel works with the prosecution to get their client to plea out, or plead guilty for something that wasn't in their best interest.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume you think it's important to our system of justice that the job get done. So why dislike it when an important and necessary job is getting done by the people that are supposed to do it.
The prosecution isn't doing their job. The rest is just more "blah blah blah".

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can understand disliking the fact that the judge and the prosecutor aren't doing their job. I don't understand why you keep lumping the defense in with them, since the defense has done nothing wrong.
Fine, please for the love of everything ******* holy lets pretend I've never even said the word "defense" before. As someone who has gone through the system, I've seen first hand how the prosecution and the defense work together to **** over those they don't like, and appease those they do. The fact that there is no evidence of something like this ever happening before, I'm going to say that I'm on the right track that something is fishy.

Can we be done now? The defense is ******* awesome. They're great. I will never, ever say a bad word about them again. We good? Am I no longer a dangerous threat to society that can't be redeemed? Just let me know how I can ******* possibly make this clearer. I'm so sorry.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 01:07 PM   #2314
lobosrul5
Master Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,392
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is that unfair? The victim and their families are not entitled to preemptively punish the accused just because the state decided to accuse them.
I guess this is like just my own ******* opinion or whatever, but I think victims of crime, and their families, deserve to see justice served in a timely fashion. If someone shot my friend or family member in front me at a movie theater, I wouldn't like it too much that they got to sit around at home for over 7 years now. But like I said, thats just me.

ETA: and jesus h C man. I've never said he should be pre-emptively punished. I've said repeatedly that a delay this long is wrong. Its wrong whether the accused is sitting in jail, or at home, just to different people.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 3rd August 2021 at 01:09 PM.
lobosrul5 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 01:31 PM   #2315
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 864
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

So the best we could find were 2 cases, not really close to the same as the one for this thread, where people ended up getting their trial delayed. Even if we accept both of them, I asked for 3. Can we now admit that what is happening is definitely odd, out of the norm, possibly catering to the criminal?
I knew of the Durst case. I spent about 5 minutes googling and found the 10 year case. I'm not going to spend hours compiling a long list for you. You asked for 3, I gave you 2.

Such very long delays are somewhat unusual but they do happen for a variety of reasons. As I understand it recent changes in Florida law regarding stand your ground/self-defense created unusual legal issues in this case that needed to be resolved pre-trial. Hasn't Covid also contributed to the delay in this case? Unusually long delays happen because there is something unusual about the case.

In my limited experience courts - criminal and civil - move very slowly.
I don't see any reason to believe that the long delay is "catering to the criminal".
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 04:51 PM   #2316
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,731
The guy is an ex-cop. My question is does he have connections that are making things easier for him? Perhaps the problem is with both the defense and the state.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 10:56 PM   #2317
Warp12
Graduate Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 1,755
Well, I don't like these cases that drag out for years. There have definitely been some of note....murder, and otherwise.

Flip side, I hope everyone has learned that throwing things at people can have very bad results. Escalation is rarely the answer, especially if assault is involved. That is the big takeaway, here.
__________________
"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." - Henry David Thoreau
Warp12 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:07 PM   #2318
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,408
Yeah, blame the victim.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:09 PM   #2319
Warp12
Graduate Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 1,755
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Flip side, I hope everyone has learned that throwing things at people can have very bad results. Escalation is rarely the answer, especially if assault is involved. That is the big takeaway, here.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, blame the victim.
Which one?
__________________
"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." - Henry David Thoreau

Last edited by Warp12; 3rd August 2021 at 11:10 PM.
Warp12 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 11:14 PM   #2320
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,408
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Which one?
This one:

Quote:
"Their voices start going up, there seems to be a confrontation, somebody throws popcorn, then bang, he was shot,"
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:06 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.